Early last month my son, James Kim, died of hypothermia in a snowy wilderness in Oregon after setting out on foot to seek help for his family, who were stranded in a car.
My son's death was a tragedy that could have been prevented. A wrong turn on a poorly marked wilderness road need not have resulted in the ordeal of James's wife and two daughters, nor his death while trying desperately to find help. I am sharing some of the hard-learned lessons that I took away from my family's trauma in the hope of making it less likely that others will suffer the same fate.
First, it is crucial that measures be adopted to ensure against mistaken access to potentially hazardous logging and private roads. Those responsible for the maintenance of such roads must be required to post clear signs warning against access. Governments should allocate sufficient resources to regularly monitor roadblocks designed to prevent access, and it should be a federal crime to tamper with such signs and barriers.
Such measures might not have stopped James and his family from being misled by a map that depicted the road they chose through the Coast Range as a major thoroughfare, but they would have prevented the ill-fated turn that led them into a maze of logging roads and across treacherous terrain that travelers never should have had access to in the first place.
Locals say mistaken access to the road in question is common, although a gate is at the entrance to the logging roads specifically to prevent unsuspecting travelers from wandering onto them. The appropriate federal agencies failed to perform their duty and lock the gate for the winter. James was not the first victim of an accidental detour in the same area, but with a few changes, he could be the last.
Second, Congress should change the law so that most recent credit card and phone-use records can be immediately released to the next of kin in the event of an emergency. Privacy laws are important to safeguard personal information, but there needs to be provision for exceptional access to information by relatives when it is critical to a family member's survival.
Four days passed before we even knew James and his family were missing. But because my family was unable to confirm credit card and phone-use information until days after their absence was discovered, the start of the search was needlessly delayed. Precious time and a precious life were lost. Privacy concerns kept both the hotel where James and his family last stayed and the restaurant where they last dined from sharing credit card records, thus denying us for days important clues that would have helped narrow the initial search area.
Similarly frustrating was that we did not know about a transmission into James's cellphone on the night his family became stranded until the evening of Dec. 1 -- three full days after the San Francisco Police Department was notified that James and his family were missing. Remarkably, this information was confirmed not by authorities but by conscience-driven cellphone company engineers who saw fit to volunteer their time. This information proved critical to significantly reducing the search area, and it allowed for the discovery and safe rescue of James's wife, Kati, and my granddaughters, Penelope and Sabine, less than two days later.
Had this information been confirmed sooner, rescue teams could have immediately focused the search operation, and James probably would have been rescued with his family and spared his doomed 16-mile quest to save them. What a difference a day would have made!
Third, steps should be taken to ensure that authorities are adequately trained for search-and-rescue operations, have a clear sense of their available resources and fully understand the procedures necessary to conduct an effective, well-coordinated search-and-rescue operation.
We are eternally grateful for the heroic efforts of the search-and-rescue teams and volunteers who risked their lives to save James and his family. But the search was plagued by confusion, communication breakdowns and failures of leadership until the Oregon State Police set up a command post. The media widely reported that leads that could have led to more timely discovery of the car were not pursued. Misinformation was rampant, diverting scarce resources. Air National Guard helicopters with sensitive heat-detecting technology languished on the tarmac for days, even after the cellphone-use information provided a better picture of where James and his family probably were.
Meanwhile, James hiked through the forest for two long, cold days and nights, and Kati and her children waited through two more days of freezing temperatures until private helicopters discovered and rescued them.
Finally, the Federal Aviation Administration classification code for Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFR) to limit media presence during a life-or-death search-and-rescue operation should be more strictly enforced. A TFR is used to restrict aircraft operations within designated areas to separate "non-participating" aircraft from those engaged in official activities, including search-and-rescue operations.
Unfortunately for James, aviation authorities acquiesced to media requests to relax restrictions and allowed low-altitude media flights in the area while the aerial search was still underway. This untimely and irrational decision caused many rescue helicopters to abandon their operations for one full afternoon due to dangerous conditions created by media airplanes. It took personal pleas to Washington to get restrictions reinstated. The search, not media interest, should be the top priority.
With his last heroic determination to rescue his family, James proved himself to be a man of action. My son deserves a legacy worthy of that man. As a tribute to him, I am determined to follow his lead and do all I can to prevent another senseless tragedy.
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BurlyShirley
01-09-2007, 06:45 PM
...I have an idea. Why dont we just create a new law for each stupid way an individual decides to endanger himself and/or family? Im tired of all this "personal responsibility" hub bub I keep hearing about. I want a big god damned plastic bubble where no germs, nature, smokers, AIDS, wildlife, TransFats or Marijuana dealers will be able to come get me.
F*ck it.
EDIT: Oh yeah, to answer the question. It's his own damn fault. Learn to read a map and learn to be prepared/knowledgable for whatever situations you may encounter. Also, be sure to inform your family not to blame others for your own failings as a human being/father.
RenegadeRick
01-09-2007, 06:52 PM
Amen!
Westy
01-09-2007, 07:08 PM
People die. We can't pad and climate control the whole world. If we did the place would stink like old people.
Changleen
01-09-2007, 07:19 PM
EDIT: Oh yeah, to answer the question. It's his own damn fault. Learn to read a map and learn to be prepared/knowledgable for whatever situations you may encounter. Also, be sure to inform your family not to blame others for your own failings as a human being/father.:stupid:
tmx
01-09-2007, 07:24 PM
Sh*t happens to the most capable of us all. Why not work together to utilize our laws and advanced technology so that when someone you know or love is caught in an unfortunate situation all avenues of swift resolve are wide open for the best possible outcome?
The article was an eloquent rational explanation of various situations and logical solutions that could serve to help save a life in the future.
BurlyShirley
01-09-2007, 07:28 PM
Sh*t happens to the most capable of us all. Why not work together to utilize our laws and advanced technology so that when someone you know or love is caught in an unfortunate situation all avenues of swift resolve are wide open for the best possible outcome?
The article was an eloquent rational explanation of various situations and logical solutions that could serve to help save a life in the future.
I bolded the most important part of your reply. You can make all the laws you want and sanitize life to the point that it's completely uninteresting, or you can be accountable for your own decisions and pay your own consequences without blaming others. I choose the latter.
jaydee
01-09-2007, 07:30 PM
The way that our society always wants to assign blame when someone dies makes me wonder if people have forgotten that dying is as much a part of life as being born.
stevew
01-09-2007, 07:51 PM
Sh*t happens to the most capable of us all. Why not work together to utilize our laws and advanced technology so that when someone you know or love is caught in an unfortunate situation all avenues of swift resolve are wide open for the best possible outcome?
The article was an eloquent rational explanation of various situations and logical solutions that could serve to help save a life in the future.
Darwin craves flesh.
LordOpie
01-09-2007, 08:12 PM
Sounds like some good suggestions to me. Some of them could be applied to larger situations, like hurricanes. Like proper training to SaR teams and effective management and use of resources.
But I guess Washington hates Asians.
JohnE
01-09-2007, 08:21 PM
How about packing blankets, food, water, road and signal flares, cold weather gear, maps, compasses and GPS, shovels, and St Bernard dogs into every clowns car who is bound and determined to try a new route through the wilderness that he has not properly reconnoitered that may or may not save him an hour or two in his travel to a holiday party?
Who is to blame? Blame God if you must, because it was Kims time to go.
When will the culture of itsnotmyfaultimdumbblamethegovernmentandgivemesome money die a sweet and merciful death? Stand by for the movie of the week...
LordOpie
01-09-2007, 08:27 PM
Oh my, look at how cool I am cuz I scoff at death or am so cool as to laugh at people who try to blame others. Woohoo!
There are some good suggestions there, try not to be so cool as to ignore their value.
John, you're just the last one to post, but that wasn't directed at you in particular.
LordOpie
01-09-2007, 08:28 PM
Sh*t happens to the most capable of us all. Why not work together to utilize our laws and advanced technology so that when someone you know or love is caught in an unfortunate situation all avenues of swift resolve are wide open for the best possible outcome?
The article was an eloquent rational explanation of various situations and logical solutions that could serve to help save a life in the future.
Well said.
BurlyShirley
01-09-2007, 08:33 PM
No one is scoffing at death, we're merely laughing at society's attempts to eliminate it altogether.
jaydee
01-09-2007, 08:39 PM
No one is scoffing at death, we're merely laughing at society's attempts to eliminate it altogether.
Exactly. Death is just so tasteless.
LordOpie
01-09-2007, 08:40 PM
How about taking reasonable steps to reduce the possibility on any given day?
Like, if a road is dangerous during the winter and should be closed, ya know, post a sign?
If you want to argue the merits of any of his given proposals, cool. But to dismiss them outright is a waste of a post.
Early last month my son, James Kim, died of hypothermia in a snowy wilderness in Oregon after setting out on foot to seek help for his family, who were stranded in a car.
My son's death was a tragedy that could have been prevented. A wrong turn on a poorly marked wilderness road need not have resulted in the ordeal of James's wife and two daughters, nor his death while trying desperately to find help. I am sharing some of the hard-learned lessons that I took away from my family's trauma in the hope of making it less likely that others will suffer the same fate.
First, it is crucial that measures be adopted to ensure against mistaken access to potentially hazardous logging and private roads. Those responsible for the maintenance of such roads must be required to post clear signs warning against access.
It's called private property, the government has no right to tell people what they have to put on it. That being said, I have yet to see a logging road, or fire road that did not have some sort of warning sign.
Governments should allocate sufficient resources to regularly monitor roadblocks designed to prevent access,
And I'm sure you'll be happy to pay the increased taxes to help fund those resources? Right?
and it should be a federal crime to tamper with such signs and barriers.
Federal crime? No, but it already is one, it's called Vandalism and endangering the lives of others.
Such measures might not have stopped James and his family from being misled by a map that depicted the road they chose through the Coast Range as a major thoroughfare,
No, but learning to read a map might have. Here's a hint, major thoroughfares are not marked with dashed lines or Route designations. They are highways and interstates.
but they would have prevented the ill-fated turn that led them into a maze of logging roads and across treacherous terrain that travelers never should have had access to in the first place.
So would realizing that dirt roads are not major roads, or any road you should be traveling on. (Unless you are in Iowa).
Locals say mistaken access to the road in question is common, although a gate is at the entrance to the logging roads specifically to prevent unsuspecting travelers from wandering onto them.
Hmmm, so above you said there should have been a sign warning your son, but obviously a gate wasnt enough? Perhaps a neon sign with giant flashing lights saying "STAY THE HELL OUT"?
The appropriate federal agencies failed to perform their duty and lock the gate for the winter. James was not the first victim of an accidental detour in the same area, but with a few changes, he could be the last.
Again, this is not the job of the Federal government. At best it is a job for the local government, but more likely it's personal responsibility.
Second, Congress should change the law so that most recent credit card and phone-use records can be immediately released to the next of kin in the event of an emergency. Privacy laws are important to safeguard personal information, but there needs to be provision for exceptional access to information by relatives when it is critical to a family member's survival.
And what would define "exceptional access"?, and how did you know it is critical to someones survival?
Four days passed before we even knew James and his family were missing. But because my family was unable to confirm credit card and phone-use information until days after their absence was discovered, the start of the search was needlessly delayed. Precious time and a precious life were lost. Privacy concerns kept both the hotel where James and his family last stayed and the restaurant where they last dined from sharing credit card records, thus denying us for days important clues that would have helped narrow the initial search area.
You know what else would have done that, without the intervention of Congress? Proper planning. If you, or someone you know, is going to go on a trip through unfamiliar territory, go over their route with them, have them set up a schedule to check in on a LAND LINE every few hours. Most cars need to refuel every 5-6 hours, that is a perfect time to check in. That would have reduced your search area down to ~300 miles of road, if not less.
Similarly frustrating was that we did not know about a transmission into James's cellphone on the night his family became stranded until the evening of Dec. 1 -- three full days after the San Francisco Police Department was notified that James and his family were missing. Remarkably, this information was confirmed not by authorities but by conscience-driven cellphone company engineers who saw fit to volunteer their time. This information proved critical to significantly reducing the search area, and it allowed for the discovery and safe rescue of James's wife, Kati, and my granddaughters, Penelope and Sabine, less than two days later.
Had this information been confirmed sooner, rescue teams could have immediately focused the search operation, and James probably would have been rescued with his family and spared his doomed 16-mile quest to save them. What a difference a day would have made!
See above, you would have known within hours, not days, if you had taught proper planning to your son.
Third, steps should be taken to ensure that authorities are adequately trained for search-and-rescue operations, have a clear sense of their available resources and fully understand the procedures necessary to conduct an effective, well-coordinated search-and-rescue operation.
They are, in fact, SAR people are often the best trained members of a police/first responder force. They are also ones who often volunteer for the duty, simply because they know the area well, and know how people can get in trouble.
We are eternally grateful for the heroic efforts of the search-and-rescue teams and volunteers who risked their lives to save James and his family. But the search was plagued by confusion, communication breakdowns and failures of leadership until the Oregon State Police set up a command post. The media widely reported that leads that could have led to more timely discovery of the car were not pursued. Misinformation was rampant, diverting scarce resources. Air National Guard helicopters with sensitive heat-detecting technology languished on the tarmac for days, even after the cellphone-use information provided a better picture of where James and his family probably were.
That is not the fault of the SAR teams, that is the fault of the government beuracracy that you so desperatly are calling for.
Meanwhile, James hiked through the forest for two long, cold days and nights, and Kati and her children waited through two more days of freezing temperatures until private helicopters discovered and rescued them.
Again, proper planning and education would have prevented this. Turn on the weather channel at any time during the winter and you will undoubtedly see specials on surviving your car getting stuck in winter weather. First thing they say, DO NOT LEAVE YOUR CAR. Pack your car with a coffee can, some candles, a few blankets, some water, and a bit of food, and you are good for a few days. More than enough to wait out any storm. I have all that in my trunk, do you?
Finally, the Federal Aviation Administration classification code for Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFR) to limit media presence during a life-or-death search-and-rescue operation should be more strictly enforced. A TFR is used to restrict aircraft operations within designated areas to separate "non-participating" aircraft from those engaged in official activities, including search-and-rescue operations.
Unfortunately for James, aviation authorities acquiesced to media requests to relax restrictions and allowed low-altitude media flights in the area while the aerial search was still underway. This untimely and irrational decision caused many rescue helicopters to abandon their operations for one full afternoon due to dangerous conditions created by media airplanes. It took personal pleas to Washington to get restrictions reinstated. The search, not media interest, should be the top priority.
With his last heroic determination to rescue his family, James proved himself to be a man of action. My son deserves a legacy worthy of that man. As a tribute to him, I am determined to follow his lead and do all I can to prevent another senseless tragedy.
While I am sorry for your loss, your son was an idiot. He broke every rule of survival, every rule of proper planning, and put himself, his family, and countless others on the SAR teams in unneeded danger. If you truely want to prevent another senseless tragedy, start teaching others the lessons countless others have learned the hard way about planning and survival.
LordOpie
01-09-2007, 08:53 PM
It appears I was wrong afterall... I didn't really want a point-by-point debate.
Sorry about that.
BurlyShirley
01-09-2007, 08:57 PM
How about taking reasonable steps to reduce the possibility on any given day?
Like, if a road is dangerous during the winter and should be closed, ya know, post a sign?
If you want to argue the merits of any of his given proposals, cool. But to dismiss them outright is a waste of a post.
Fine.
First, it is crucial that measures be adopted to ensure against mistaken access to potentially hazardous logging and private roads
Impossible. You want to put up a big ass sign in front of every private and public logging road in the rocky mountains and forests of the united states? Have fun with that. Any time something is deemed "potentially hazardous" it needs a sign now, else the gov't can likely be sued for failing to protect people from themselves no doubt.
WTF are you doing on a logging road in the dead of winter anyway? Its retarded.
Second, Congress should change the law so that most recent credit card and phone-use records can be immediately released to the next of kin in the event of an emergency
Hey, I havent seen my estranged son in two weeks. Hey, my wife ran off. Cha CHING!
Third, steps should be taken to ensure that authorities are adequately trained for search-and-rescue operations, have a clear sense of their available resources and fully understand the procedures necessary to conduct an effective, well-coordinated search-and-rescue operation.
Obviously these guys werent good enough. His son wasnt rescued after making the stupid ass decision to saunter his ass of the road and into the wilderness instead of sticking with the car or sticking on the road. Its not the guy's fault, its the rescue crew's fault.
Finally, the Federal Aviation Administration classification code for Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFR) to limit media presence during a life-or-death search-and-rescue operation should be more strictly enforced.
Often this is enforced, it just wasnt in this situation. Much ado about nothing now.
JohnE
01-09-2007, 08:57 PM
I think it just all breaks down to the fact that if your number is up, your number is up, whether you are 18 and in a combat zone or 85 and sitting in an old folks home. And there aint a d@mn thing you can do about it...
BurlyShirley
01-09-2007, 08:58 PM
D'oh. I got Kihaji'd.
LordOpie
01-09-2007, 09:02 PM
I think it just all breaks down to the fact that if your number is up, your number is up, whether you are 18 and in a combat zone or 85 and sitting in an old folks home. And there aint a d@mn thing you can do about it...
So you believe in God, Fate, Destiny, or something?
I'm not sure what the truth is, but I'd rather believe I have some control over my life than to be at the whim of something else.
sanjuro
01-09-2007, 09:22 PM
I think it just all breaks down to the fact that if your number is up, your number is up, whether you are 18 and in a combat zone or 85 and sitting in an old folks home. And there aint a d@mn thing you can do about it...
That's stupid.
If they had proper supplies, use some map common-sense, or just sat in the car, James Kim would still be alive today.
This wasn't some freak storm, but people underprepared who made some tragic mistakes...
DirtyDog
01-09-2007, 09:26 PM
I have yet to see a logging road, or fire road that did not have some sort of warning sign.
Do we live in the same country? :confused:
Transcend
01-09-2007, 09:41 PM
Do we live in the same country? :confused:
He doesn't get out much.
Silver
01-09-2007, 10:20 PM
James Kim is at fault. Unless his wife was driving, that is...
sanjuro
01-09-2007, 10:46 PM
Do we live in the same country? :confused:
Are you from Nazi Germany?
ohio
01-09-2007, 11:50 PM
The title is misleading about the nature of the article. Nowhere does Spencer Kim claim that the death was anyone's "fault" but his sons. What he does say is that he is observing a few changes that can prevent a future death. There can be a healthy debate about the cost/benefit of those changes, but personal responsibility has nothing to do with it.
Example: Say 50 people drive off a specific bend in the road and over a cliff to their death every month. Well, it's likely their own fault for not driving carefully but the government should still put up a guardrail to prevent that from happening. Clearly the benefit is worth the effort in that case, and it has nothing to do with removing people's responsibility for their own safety.
JohnE
01-10-2007, 12:19 AM
That's stupid.
If they had proper supplies, use some map common-sense, or just sat in the car, James Kim would still be alive today.
This wasn't some freak storm, but people underprepared who made some tragic mistakes...
Yeah, well, he didnt, and he is dead. Therefore, his number was up. Case in point.
JohnE
01-10-2007, 12:24 AM
So you believe in God, Fate, Destiny, or something?
I'm not sure what the truth is, but I'd rather believe I have some control over my life than to be at the whim of something else.
Or something, yes. This whole mess is too weird to be just a random accident.
I agree in that I am not sure what the truth is, and I hope that some day it is revealed to us. Well, to me anyway...
A certain amount of control is intrinsic, but no matter how many precautions we take, how much training we may have, how well prepared we are, how high tech our gear etc, sometimes sh*t happens, and we die. I have had too many friends get killed, and been in too much weirdness of one form or another to not become somewhat fatalistic.
Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
Westy
01-10-2007, 05:04 AM
The reality is most of those recommendations cost money and the money spent on those recommendations would do more good to save lives if applied to normal public highways. There are more wilderness roads in the US then paved roads, increasing management of them would be a tremendous effort that would net little public good.
valve bouncer
01-10-2007, 05:39 AM
This kind of thing happens quite a lot in Australia (replace blinding snowstorm with searing desert). Happens to all sorts of people, even on occasion Aborigines. One of the prices to pay in a big empty country with vast amounts of wilderness. . I honestly can't really see any way to avoid it unfortunately other than being prepared. AND DON'T LEAVE THE CAR (unless it's on fire).
Westy
01-10-2007, 05:42 AM
Growing up in the UP of Michigan my father always kept a bag in the car that contained a camp stove, lantern, a snowsuit/sleeping bag/boots for every member of family and other cold weather survival items.
tmx
01-10-2007, 06:19 AM
I don't get the need to assign blame or chastise the dead bugger. I don't see it in Mr. Kim's article either.
Advancing technology and improving communications fascinate me. And I really don't care too much about cost to the government (ie: me and you) to do whatever it might take to draw something like the Kim situation or the Mt Hood dudes to a close much sooner. Why not review protocol so that resources we already have can be put to better use? "Good use" doesn't necessarily always mean "save a dumb-asses life".
Perhaps the end costs might financially be comparable if not beneficial. Saving unnecessary man-power and precious resources by not fumbling around on something such as this for days months or longer sounds cool. And if it also happens to increase the chance of finding a person alive seems like an added bonus.
The society most of us live in will not stand for letting a family of four disappear (or the guys climbing Mt Hood or the kid that fell in a hole...) be left to die without putting out a search and rescue effort. We might be content to let our government spend billions on war and killing thousands of innocent people but we will not stand for letting the Kim's die in a snowstorm. Why not expedite the efforts when and wherever possible?
RenegadeRick
01-10-2007, 06:22 AM
Are you from Nazi Germany?
does this mean you lost the debate?
JohnE
01-10-2007, 08:26 AM
This kind of thing happens quite a lot in Australia (replace blinding snowstorm with searing desert). Happens to all sorts of people, even on occasion Aborigines. One of the prices to pay in a big empty country with vast amounts of wilderness. . I honestly can't really see any way to avoid it unfortunately other than being prepared. AND DON'T LEAVE THE CAR (unless it's on fire).
Whoa there VB, stop making sense. There is no personal accountability here, it has to be someone elses fault...
LordOpie
01-10-2007, 08:32 AM
So, after sitting in the car for a week with no signs of help, you'd continue to sit there?
I know how much fun it is to ridicule people, so I'll just bow out of this thread and let y'all have your fun :)
Silver
01-10-2007, 08:39 AM
So, after sitting in the car for a week with no signs of help, you'd continue to sit there?
I know how much fun it is to ridicule people, so I'll just bow out of this thread and let y'all have your fun :)
What I don't do is drive down a logging road. I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time. So did invading Russia...
Westy
01-10-2007, 08:42 AM
So, after sitting in the car for a week with no signs of help, you'd continue to sit there?
I know how much fun it is to ridicule people, so I'll just bow out of this thread and let y'all have your fun :)
I don't know what I would have done but I wouldn't expect major law and policy changes to occur in an attempt to prevent the death of 00.000000000001% of the population.
Kihaji
01-10-2007, 08:43 AM
So, after sitting in the car for a week with no signs of help, you'd continue to sit there?
I know how much fun it is to ridicule people, so I'll just bow out of this thread and let y'all have your fun :)
This guy didnt sit there for a week, he sat there for hours, then decided to go out in conditions he couldnt drive in, in a location he didnt know. He and his family were not in any danger of starving or freezing to death when he went to "save them". Had he used his head, and waited, he would be alive.
ohio
01-10-2007, 10:00 AM
This guy didnt sit there for a week, he sat there for hours
How do you continually prove yourself to be an idiot? Is it a gift, or did you have to train?
Transcend
01-10-2007, 10:03 AM
This guy didnt sit there for a week, he sat there for hours, then decided to go out in conditions he couldnt drive in, in a location he didnt know. He and his family were not in any danger of starving or freezing to death when he went to "save them". Had he used his head, and waited, he would be alive.
Wow, you don't pay attention much do you? He stayed put for days before he decided to venture out. They were out of gas, tires and other combustibles as well as food when he finally left.
sanjuro
01-10-2007, 10:52 AM
The title is misleading about the nature of the article. Nowhere does Spencer Kim claim that the death was anyone's "fault" but his sons. What he does say is that he is observing a few changes that can prevent a future death. There can be a healthy debate about the cost/benefit of those changes, but personal responsibility has nothing to do with it.
Example: Say 50 people drive off a specific bend in the road and over a cliff to their death every month. Well, it's likely their own fault for not driving carefully but the government should still put up a guardrail to prevent that from happening. Clearly the benefit is worth the effort in that case, and it has nothing to do with removing people's responsibility for their own safety.
I disagree. While I don't expect Mr. Kim to write a long article blaming his own son, he criticized every aspect of the search, from the privacy laws to the actual physical search.
No where in this article does the phrase, "personal responsibility", arise.
BTW, I hear hundreds of people die on bicycles every year. I think we should ban bikes from roads and trails? Good idea or should we trust people to take of themselves?
ohio
01-10-2007, 10:55 AM
I disagree. While I don't expect Mr. Kim to write a long article blaming his own son, he criticized every aspect of the search, from the privacy laws to the actual physical search.
I totally agree that what he is asking for is too much. I think that's what the debate should be about: which, if any, of those steps are reasonable or implementable?
stosh
01-10-2007, 11:08 AM
I wonder if his blinker was still on when he went out for the walk.
jimmydean
01-11-2007, 11:24 AM
There have been a number of local news articles about the lack of leadership in the search and a lot of questions about how the searches were handled. It should have been handled better, that's for sure.
But I also think that people who rely too much on technology (gps said to go, so they went) and not stopping to ask locals are asking for a bad time.
It was a horrible thing that could have been avoided (like the jackasses that decided to summit Mt. Hood in December) and maybe someone will learn from it.
Men don't ask for directions, and sometimes it's a good idea to.
sanjuro
01-12-2007, 10:40 AM
One thing I thought about this morning while the tv newscast commented about James Kim was the blame they were throwing around now.
I wonder how motivated Oregon rescuers will feel to volunteer the next time someone gets lost.
ohio
01-12-2007, 11:26 AM
I wonder how motivated Oregon rescuers will feel to volunteer the next time someone gets lost.
Spent a bit of time on SAR and of the folks I met, I can't imagine it ever having any effect on their willingness to go out on a call.
jimmydean
01-12-2007, 02:00 PM
I wonder how motivated Oregon rescuers will feel to volunteer the next time someone gets lost.
The issue was leadership, or lack of. There were a lot of questions about who was supposed to be in charge based on the area they were in. Then there were mixed reports as to what areas had been covered and who covered them.
All that being said, you couldn't pick a worse place in Oregon to get lost. It is a backwoods, Alabama style portion of Oregon I would rather not visit. Let alone get lost in (some of my in-laws live near there).
Silver
01-12-2007, 02:08 PM
Spent a bit of time on SAR and of the folks I met, I can't imagine it ever having any effect on their willingness to go out on a call.
I was going to mention that as well. I don't think that will enter into anyone's mind next time someone gets lost.
sanjuro
01-12-2007, 02:55 PM
The issue was leadership, or lack of. There were a lot of questions about who was supposed to be in charge based on the area they were in. Then there were mixed reports as to what areas had been covered and who covered them.
All that being said, you couldn't pick a worse place in Oregon to get lost. It is a backwoods, Alabama style portion of Oregon I would rather not visit. Let alone get lost in (some of my in-laws live near there).
Actually, probably better organization was required, but time is a factor here. It was hard to expect a widespead search organized in a day.
sanjuro
01-12-2007, 03:01 PM
Spent a bit of time on SAR and of the folks I met, I can't imagine it ever having any effect on their willingness to go out on a call.
BTW, I didn't mean to question the dedication of the Search And Rescue teams, and I apologize.
ohio
01-12-2007, 03:49 PM
BTW, I didn't mean to question the dedication of the Search And Rescue teams, and I apologize.
No need for apology, I didn't take it as insult (and I'm not on any SAR team right now anyway)... I was just answering what was a pretty fair question.
LordOpie
01-12-2007, 03:53 PM
Actually, probably better organization was required, but time is a factor here. It was hard to expect a widespead search organized in a day.
Maybe SAR teams need to be organized in advanced. Like FEMA (is supposed to be) or the National Guard?
