"Good" Muslims v. "Bad" Muslims

[JohnE]

Interesting article from the Chicago SunTimes. Read and discuss...


Peaceful Muslims should turn their anger toward Islamofascists

September 18, 2006

BY MARY LANEY




Something's wrong. As I thumb through the pages of newspapers and magazines and flip through newscasts on radio and television, it seems that something is terribly wrong.


While the overwhelming majority of Muslims in America are peaceful citizens, their voices are not ringing out.

We are at war. Islamofascists have declared war on the United States and stated that they intend to kill all Americans. And they've shown us that they mean business.

We've just passed the anniversary of the worst attack on America in history, 9/11, when Muslim terrorists killed nearly 3,000 innocent men, women and children as they turned passenger planes into missiles. Yet the news is filled with stories of Muslims -- not loudly condemning the Muslim murderers -- but complaining of their treatment here and demanding Americans change their attitudes.

We Americans should change our attitudes? Terrorist cells have been discovered here. Plots to blow up bridges and the Sears Tower have been uncovered. Bomb-making supplies carried by Muslim terrorists have been stopped at our borders. A plot to bomb 10 airliners bound for the United States was foiled. Yet we Americans should change our attitudes?

America has opened its doors and universities to Muslims from foreign countries -- perhaps the best way for these students to see our freedoms and develop a new respect for our country. But where, I ask, is the returned show of support?

Pope Benedict is calling on moderate Muslims to speak out against the violent strain of Islam, calling jihad a movement against the nature of God. But where are the moderate Muslim voices here? Why aren't they speaking up to repudiate the kidnappings, suicide murders and beheadings done by Islamofascists?

For an answer, I went to the Web site of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, CAIR. But the CAIR site highlights a workshop on how to "Know Your Rights"; a section on "Political Empowerment"; a demand to put a Muslim holiday on all school calendars.

This past spring, Muslim students at Michigan State University held a protest -- not to decry Islamic terrorists -- but to speak out loudly against Danish cartoons depicting Mohammed as a terrorist. What's worse is this: When a tenured professor, I.S. Wichman, sent an e-mail to a student, the school's Muslim Student Association made the letter public and demanded that the professor be officially reprimanded.

What had Wichman written? He wrote that, more than being offended by the cartoons, he was offended "by beheadings of civilians, cowardly attacks on public buildings, suicide murderers, murders of Catholic priests (the latest in Turkey), burnings of Christian churches, the continued persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt, the imposition of Sharia law on non-Muslims, the rapes of Scandinavian girls and women, the murder of a film director in Holland, and the rioting and looting in France."

He went on to write, "If you do not like the values of the West -- see the First Amendment -- you are free to leave."

It seems that the students believe they have the right to protest cartoons, but professors don't have the right to speak out against murderous atrocities. Something's wrong.

To Michigan State's credit, the professor will not be reprimanded as he was exercising his right to free speech.

We are at war. Our soldiers are following the rules of war -- but their opposition is not.

CIA counterterrorism officers are buying private insurance to cover legal costs in case they are charged with a crime, as is being hinted at by some members of Congress who feel their interrogation techniques might be too "tough."

In Iraq, Americans have been kidnapped, tortured, beheaded, burned, hanged from bridges, dragged through streets. But the CIA's method of questioning a terrorist in a cold room while playing loud music is too "tough"?

We're fighting a war for civilization against an enemy bent on destroying it and creating an Islamic world based on a warped view of what true Islam is -- yet where are the voices of American Muslims condemning this enemy?

Something's wrong.

[Changleen]

I think those voices are out there, you are right, not as much as they should be, I do agree, but it's not true that they do not exist. These are from the BBC's 'Have your say' feature, about teh pope.

The Pope was clearly quoting someone else, so this whole idea of him attacking the Islamic ideology is idiotic.

Being a muslim myself, I would advise others around the world to realise that no mater how close to our heart, our faith may be, those who dont' follow it are under no obligation whatsoever to respect, dignify or even accept such beliefs.

I request them to follow the example of none other than Mohammad (SAW) himself, to face harsh criticism and insults with dignity and forgiveness.

Ali Akbar, Stuttgart

Recommended by 747 people

Having read a transcript of the Pope's remarks, it is easy to see that no offence was intended. Raised as a Muslim I am often saddened by other Muslims protesting based on incorrect facts, and never protesting when our religion is used as a cover for mass murder. This is another example of a lack of faith from these fanatics, true faith cannot be brought down by comments, words or pictures. I just don't understand the reasoning behind inflicting suffering and hatred, how can this be God's will?

Saj Khan, Sydney Australia

Recommended by 657 people

The Pope has made comments which demand an apology.

But it is okay for us Muslims to slate every other religion in the World though? Hypocrisy?

Perhaps if us good Muslims slated the evil comments made by other bad Muslims then non-Muslims may empathise with us and not see this as double standards.

I do not however hold my breath as it appears we are always playing the victim culture whilst doing awful things ourselves. This reflects badly on our peaceful religion.

Abbas, Cumbria

Recommended by 319 people

[valve bouncer]

As soon as i read the word "Islamofascist" I kind of switch off as I know the following is going to be a right-wing rant by yet another pink faced squealing frother.

[Changleen]

On the whole in this situation, I feel Islam can fvck off though.

Damn religion is SOO dumb.

[MudGrrl]

I think all of the "good" muslims will be forgiven after they crawl on their hands and knees to each "freedom loving american"household and apologize for 9/11 personally.



Yeah, religion is dumb.

[BurlyShirley]

Someone should tell these muslims that Jesus is the true savior.

[Old Man G Funk]

This guy is a complete frother. Do Christians come out and denounce other Christians when an abortion clinic is bombed?

[BurlyShirley]

This guy is a complete frother. Do Christians come out and denounce other Christians when an abortion clinic is bombed?

Uh. Yes. :clue:

[Old Man G Funk]

Uh. Yes. :clue:
I don't remember that happening. I do remember a certain poll not too long ago where Christians were more receptive of torture than others in this country, probably because it was those Muslim heathens being tortured.

It's pretty apparent though that this guy is on the Team America bandwagon to the point that he thinks that everything we do is good and right be default. Apparently locking up citizens without charges for years on end simply because they are the wrong religion shouldn't be a cause for concern for people of that same religion?

[MudGrrl]

This guy is a complete frother. Do Christians come out and denounce other Christians when an abortion clinic is bombed?

no, they go to the White Rose Banquet (http://www.christiangallery.com/wtrose.htm) .

[$tinkle]

This guy is a complete frother. Do Christians come out and denounce other Christians when an abortion clinic is bombed?seems that we both have selective memory, so i'll ask for your help.

what christian has bombed an abortion clinic? (before you say "eric rudolph", understand his motivations were more political than religious, and i've yet to find a profession of his faith)

[Old Man G Funk]

seems that we both have selective memory, so i'll ask for your help.

what christian has bombed an abortion clinic? (before you say "eric rudolph", understand his motivations were more political than religious, and i've yet to find a profession of his faith)

See the post just above yours.

[Kevin]

This guy is a complete frother. Do Christians come out and denounce other Christians when an abortion clinic is bombed?

So your comparing the bombing on one abortian clinic to flying planes into the twin towers, bombings in big citys, suicide bombings on a daily basis, burning down churches, shooting nuns, shooting at churches, home videos of decapitations, Muslim leaders calling on people to fight in the Jihad against the west, kill the pope, blow themselves up in busstations and even destroy everyone who is not a Muslim in the name of allah and Islam?
Yeah Id say thats a pretty good comparison...

[Old Man G Funk]

So your comparing the bombing on one abortian clinic to flying planes into the twin towers, bombings in big citys, suicide bombings on a daily basis, burning down churches, shooting nuns, shooting at churches, home videos of decapitations, Muslim leaders calling on people to fight in the Jihad against the west, kill the pope, blow themselves up in busstations and even destroy everyone who is not a Muslim in the name of allah and Islam?
Yeah Id say thats a pretty good comparison...
Mulitple abortion clinics actually.

I haven't seen the movie, yet, but at first glance it looks like this is the exact same thing from a Christian perspective as what the fundamentalist Muslim leaders do in countries like Saudi Arabia. Sure, the Muslim have a head start, but how long until we have factions that are on par? They are making "warriors for Christ"? How long until those "warriors" actually pick up arms and fight for Christ through violence?

Edit: And, the abortion clinic example is just one where it already happens. If I wanted another example I might point at Bush declaring that god told him to invade Iraq.

[BurlyShirley]

So your comparing the bombing on one abortian clinic to flying planes into the twin towers, bombings in big citys, suicide bombings on a daily basis, burning down churches, shooting nuns, shooting at churches, home videos of decapitations, Muslim leaders calling on people to fight in the Jihad against the west, kill the pope, blow themselves up in busstations and even destroy everyone who is not a Muslim in the name of allah and Islam?
Yeah Id say thats a pretty good comparison...

Well, its valid in that people are murdering one another "in the name of god" and that's ****ed up either way. A bomb is a bomb and a religious nut is a religious nut. Scale is the only real difference.

[$tinkle]

See the post just above yours.i did; she was convicted of multiples arsons from almost 20 yrs ago.

is that all you got?

** ok, full disclosure time: when i was a roadie-fhag, by weird coincidence, i had the opportunity to ride with david gunn's son (i think he was also named dave), only a month after his father was shot to death **

here's a list of abortion doctor murders:
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/murders.asp

now, of these (edit) 5 murders - averaging one death every few years just to put things in perspective - don't exactly seem to square to many thousands of deaths per annum in the name of allah [most merciful]

[Kevin]

Ah multiple clinics. That makes such a difference.
Allthough I understand your point I dont think this is in the same ballpark.
I still think Muslims should let themselves be heard about this.
We sure as hell hear from them when a cartoon of Muhammed hits the papers or when the Pope makes a dumb statement so why dont we hear them about the so called Muslims who are killing and fighting their Jihad in the name of Islam and Allah?
Bush and his policy on terrorist threats are getting so much trash talk on the internet by christians (and all people except N8 for that matter) but I see nothing of that by Muslims on terrorists just to name a small example...

[Silver]

You don't hear Muslims speak up about this because they are pissed off at the Pope. He insulted them! Quite frankly, I don't give a flying fvck, but they do.

There might be 5 or 6 who think this is a bad thing, but that's it. Same thing with Christians. When a doctor gets shot, most of them don't feel too bad because he was killing innocent babies! So you don't get Christians marching in the streets condemning the shooter. And the few that do the evangelical types probably don't consider to be "true" Christians anyways.

Now, why the scale difference that BS points out? Christians are comfortable. They have Wal-Mart, McDonalds, and Albertson's vodka.

[BurlyShirley]

You don't hear Muslims speak up about this because they are pissed off at the Pope. He insulted them! Quite frankly, I don't give a flying fvck, but they do.

There might be 5 or 6 who think this is a bad thing, but that's it. Same thing with Christians. When a doctor gets shot, most of them don't feel too bad because he was killing innocent babies! So you don't get Christians marching in the streets condemning the shooter. And the few that do the evangelical types probably don't consider to be "true" Christians anyways.

Now, why the scale difference that BS points out? Christians are comfortable. They have Wal-Mart, McDonalds, and Albertson's vodka.

Right. Christians arent exactly politically and economically frustrated to the point of violence at this time. That could change if the queers get married tho.

[Old Man G Funk]

i did; she was convicted of multiples arsons from almost 20 yrs ago.
Perhaps you missed the 4th page and the left side of the first page?
here's a list of abortion doctor murders:
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/murders.asp

now, of these (edit) 5 murders - averaging one death every few years just to put things in perspective - don't exactly seem to square to many thousands of deaths per annum in the name of allah [most merciful]
Or the thousands of deaths that have occurred because Bush's god told him to kill all those people?

I think both sides should be up in arms about these sorts of things if they truly are about peace. Personally, I have my doubts as to the peacefulness of either religion. Both seem to be formed from blood to worship war gods. My point though was that this guy is basically employing a double standard. In his perception, America is some great Christian nation (I'll go out on a limb and say that he thinks we are a "Christian" nation) that can do no wrong. Therefore we have nothing to apologize for. Whereas those Muslims are a bunch of savages and it's proven by the fact that the media doesn't print stories about everyday Muslims that live very much like everyday people here.

[Old Man G Funk]

Ah multiple clinics. That makes such a difference.
Allthough I understand your point I dont think this is in the same ballpark.
I still think Muslims should let themselves be heard about this.
Agreed, they should be heard, but it seems hypocritical to denounce Muslims while thinking that your own sh*t don't stink.
We sure as hell hear from them when a cartoon of Muhammed hits the papers or when the Pope makes a dumb statement so why dont we hear them about the so called Muslims who are killing and fighting their Jihad in the name of Islam and Allah?
And, we should. I wonder if it doesn't sell as well in the media, however.
Bush and his policy on terrorist threats are getting so much trash talk on the internet by christians (and all people except N8 for that matter) but I see nothing of that by Muslims on terrorists just to name a small example...
A recent poll showed that Christians were much more likely to support Bush's policies on torture than non-Christians. It was on RM not too long ago. I think Silver started the thread.

[Greyhound]

Agreed, they should be heard, but it seems hypocritical to denounce Muslims while thinking that your own sh*t don't stink.

And, we should. I wonder if it doesn't sell as well in the media, however..


....And that's basically the crux of the whole thing.

[$tinkle]

If I wanted another example I might point at Bush declaring that god told him to invade Iraq.i don't remember that; are you wearing this (http://www.cafepress.com/cultclassicts.25964819)?

[Kevin]

Agreed, they should be heard, but it seems hypocritical to denounce Muslims while thinking that your own sh*t don't stink.

And, we should. I wonder if it doesn't sell as well in the media, however.

A recent poll showed that Christians were much more likely to support Bush's policies on torture than non-Christians. It was on RM not too long ago. I think Silver started the thread.

Too be honest I personally think our **** thinks more then that of Islam.
They have a lot of catching up to do if they wanna catch up with Christianity pushing their religion up on the world by force.
Talk about a hypocrite pope blaming Muslims of spreading their religion by the sword...

[$tinkle]

Too be honest I personally think our **** thinks more then that of Islam.
They have a lot of catching up to do if they wanna catch up with Christianity pushing their religion up on the world by force.
Talk about a hypocrite pope blaming Muslims of spreading their religion by the sword...
so, if bellum sacrum is declared at the council of claremont, that forever tarnishes any authority the pope has on the topic of spreading one's faith by force?

do you not realize major crusades were in response to muslim aggression?

if you don't, this thinking is dangerously close to flippantly calling israel occupiers of land they won when war was waged upon them.


oh, crap, look what i started...

[Kevin]

so, if bellum sacrum is declared at the council of claremont, that forever tarnishes any authority the pope has on the topic of spreading one's faith by force?

do you not realize major crusades were in response to muslim aggression?


Id like to know your source on this...
Have you by any chance read "The clash of civilizations and the remaking of world order" by Samuel P Huntington?
Its about world politics after the cold war and the way different cultures or civilizations are interacting with eachother and how they are clashing with eachother because of cultural differences.
Its really insightfull and I highly reccomend it to anyone who takes interest in these thing or wants to get involved in discussions like this...

[Old Man G Funk]

i don't remember that; are you wearing this (http://www.cafepress.com/cultclassicts.25964819)?

http://spot.colorado.edu/~chernus/NewspaperColumns/WarInIraq/DidGodTalkToBush.htm

Although the author dismisses the importance of it by the end of the essay, it looks as though he said it. I, however, don't dismiss the importance of him saying it, especially in light of all the other comments he has made.

[Old Man G Funk]

if you don't, this thinking is dangerously close to flippantly calling israel occupiers of land they won when war was waged upon them.


oh, crap, look what i started...
Indeed, let's not go down that road. If you want to discuss that, there are plenty of other threads that were recently alive that you could use.

[$tinkle]

Id like to know your source on this...various compilations of historical record over the last ~1400 yrs.
Have you by any chance read "The clash of civilizations and the remaking of world order" by Samuel P Huntington?
Its about world politics after the cold war and the way different cultures or civilizations are interacting with eachother and how they are clashing with eachother because of cultural differences.
Its really insightfull and I highly reccomend it to anyone who takes interest in these thing or wants to get involved in discussions like this...i have recently had this recommended to me, & do find the premise interesting: that the clashes happen without respect to geopolitical boundaries, & the west is doomed if it fails to shore up in light of this. (and people call neo-cons alarmists!) of course, the west would sacrifice meddling in others' affairs, and thereby lose influence.

[$tinkle]

http://spot.colorado.edu/~chernus/NewspaperColumns/WarInIraq/DidGodTalkToBush.htm

Although the author dismisses the importance of it by the end of the essay, it looks as though he said it. I, however, don't dismiss the importance of him saying it, especially in light of all the other comments he has made.one thing that has to be factored is that if he in indeed led by his faith, then he is either obedient to his faith-based ideology, or a traitor to it.

a razor's edge...

[Old Man G Funk]

one thing that has to be factored is that if he in indeed led by his faith, then he is either obedient to his faith-based ideology, or a traitor to it.

a razor's edge...
Man, why do things have to be black or white?

Certainly performing his job and doing what is best for the country might be considered what god would want, but might come in conflict with what he thinks is in god's best interest at times. Wouldn't that constitute a time when things were at least a little shade of gray?

[$tinkle]

Man, why do things have to be black or white?

Certainly performing his job and doing what is best for the country might be considered what god would want, but might come in conflict with what he thinks is in god's best interest at times. Wouldn't that constitute a time when things were at least a little shade of gray?if he claims to be a fundamentalist christian, there's little (if any) wiggle room for abeyance, no?

put another way: is bikerfox a member of the mountain biking community just b/c he gets his candyass on a bike?

[Old Man G Funk]

if he claims to be a fundamentalist christian, there's little (if any) wiggle room for abeyance, no?

put another way: is bikerfox a member of the mountain biking community just b/c he gets his candyass on a bike?
I don't know. Does Bikerfox ride trails?

It's not so cut and dried as you try to make it. What is at issue, however, is that 2 witnesses said that Bush claimed god directly told him to deal with Saddam. If that is true, then he killed, what, 100 times the amount that the Muslim fundamentalists killed in 9/11 and all in the name of Christian fundamentalism?

[BurlyShirley]

What is a "good" muslim anyway?

[N8]

I don't know. Does Bikerfox ride trails?

It's not so cut and dried as you try to make it. What is at issue, however, is that 2 witnesses said that Bush claimed god directly told him to deal with Saddam. If that is true, then he killed, what, 100 times the amount that the Muslim fundamentalists killed in 9/11 and all in the name of Christian fundamentalism?

of course far more muslims have been killed by other muslims than killed by any Crusader...

[N8]

What is a "good" muslim anyway?

one not wearing a sucide vest in a crowded market place.

[BurlyShirley]

of course far more muslims have been killed by other muslims than killed by any Crusader...

Oh come on N8, Islam is a "religion of peace" its those damn evil christians who make the world bad.:clue: :biggrin:

[BurlyShirley]

one not wearing a sucide vest in a crowded market place.

Is there such athing?

[N8]

Is there such athing?

unfortunatly they are the silent majority apparently.

[BurlyShirley]

unfortunatly they are the silent majority apparently.

are you saying that the "majority" of muslims are NOT terrorists?

[dante]

of course far more muslims have been killed by other muslims than killed by any Crusader...

same goes for christian on christian violence as well... :bonk:

[BurlyShirley]

same goes for christian on christian violence as well... :bonk:

Jew on Jew is pretty low compared tho.

[$tinkle]

I don't know. Does Bikerfox ride trails?if by "ride trails" you mean "gives a hot carl in the bushes", then yeah, i reckon.
It's not so cut and dried as you try to make it. What is at issue, however, is that 2 witnesses said that Bush claimed god directly told him to deal with Saddam. If that is true, then he killed, what, 100 times the amount that the Muslim fundamentalists killed in 9/11 and all in the name of Christian fundamentalism?according to my calculator (these are pretty big numbers, i need it) 100*3000 = 300,000.

and seeing how the lancet study has been debunked (slate did it (http://www.slate.com/id/2108887/) - among many others), i'm curious as to where these 300K iraqis came from.

...to say nothing of those jewey neo-cons who orchestrated the GWOT

[$tinkle]

Jew on Jew is pretty low compared tho.i pay double to hit that.

[Silver]

Iraq body count is up to about 45K reported as of now. I'd say we're getting there pretty fast...

[MMike]

Iraq body count is up to about 45K reported as of now. I'd say we're getting there pretty fast...

Pffft.....not even half of the attendance of a NASCAR event

[$tinkle]

Iraq body count is up to about 45K reported as of now. I'd say we're getting there pretty fast...ah, but he wrote: "then he killed, what, 100 times the amount that the Muslim fundamentalists killed in 9/11 and all in the name of Christian fundamentalism".

i'll make the claims (w/o proof, just to be consistent w/ forum expectations) that the killing has long been outsourced, and those we did kill were mostly bad guys, not collateral damage.

[Old Man G Funk]

ah, but he wrote: "then he killed, what, 100 times the amount that the Muslim fundamentalists killed in 9/11 and all in the name of Christian fundamentalism".

i'll make the claims (w/o proof, just to be consistent w/ forum expectations) that the killing has long been outsourced, and those we did kill were mostly bad guys, not collateral damage.
Oops, put an extra 0 in there, although we only tend to report certain killings. If we also added to our tally those killings that happened as a direct result of our actions, the tally would be higher still.

What makes a "bad" guy?

[$tinkle]

What makes a "bad" guy?picked a fine time to ask. where were you 5 yrs ago?

yeah, i know: that answer wouldn't even pass a turing test.

[ohio]

i pay double to hit that.

Save your cash. Speaking from experience, Jew on Jew is no hotter than Jew on Christian or Jew on Agnostic Irish-Iranian. It is, however, slightly hotter than Jew on fattie.

[Old Man G Funk]

picked a fine time to ask. where were you 5 yrs ago?

yeah, i know: that answer wouldn't even pass a turing test.
Actually, I was basically where I am now.

But, seriously, what makes a "bad" guy? Is the guy who is fighting the invasion of his country a "bad" guy?

[ohio]

Actually, I was basically where I am now.

But, seriously, what makes a "bad" guy? Is the guy who is fighting the invasion of his country a "bad" guy?

a bad guy is anyone who hates freedom, duh.

[JohnE]

Now we need a definition of the term "freedom"...

[Silver]

Now we need a definition of the term "freedom"...

That's easy:

Freedom is the ability to worship Jesus in the way you see fit.

[ohio]

That's easy:

Freedom is the ability to worship Jesus in the way you see fit.

No. Freedom is the ability to worship Jesus the way I see fit.

[$tinkle]

But, seriously, what makes a "bad" guy? Is the guy who is fighting the invasion of his country a "bad" guy?yes.

most notably saddam & his repukelican guard; if you can call that rope-a-dope effort fighting

[Old Man G Funk]

yes.

most notably saddam & his repukelican guard; if you can call that rope-a-dope effort fighting
What made them "bad"?

How about the average guy who wasn't a supporter of Saddam who shoots at an American soldier? Is that guy "bad"?

[Kevin]

I think theres a couple universal rights and wrongs but this kind of good or bad is determined by a lot of other factors.
Good and bad are actually pretty relative.

[$tinkle]

What made them "bad"?
all that sand getting in all those crevices...it makes em crazy
How about the average guy who wasn't a supporter of Saddam who shoots at an American soldier? Is that guy "bad"?until the soldier returns fire, then he's a good iraqi.

{you know i'm trolling, right?}

[Old Man G Funk]

all that sand getting in all those crevices...it makes em crazy
until the soldier returns fire, then he's a good iraqi.

{you know i'm trolling, right?}
Yeah, I know. But this is sort of a serious question. We hear about the "good" guys and the "bad" guys, but how do we really delineate who is who? Is Musharraf a good guy or a bad guy for instance?

[$tinkle]

Is Musharraf a good guy or a bad guy for instance?to be honest, i keep getting hamed karzai & pervez musharaf mixed up. (i can't even spell them correctly). i gotta go wiki & fold in some news. hope they're both good, but the reality may be they're just as useful as putin (who recently made a billion $$ arms deal w/ iran)

[Secret Squirrel]

to be honest, i keep getting hamed karzai & pervez musharaf mixed up. (i can't even spell them correctly). i gotta go wiki & fold in some news. hope they're both good, but the reality may be they're just as useful as putin (who recently made a billion $$ arms deal w/ iran)

Well...they certainly aren't gettin' rich off us....No drilly Siberia, No currency for you!!

[llkoolkeg]

I wish the good ones would wear white turbans and the bad ones would wear black turbans. That certainly worked well enough for us out west!