Thoughts on 9/11

[Dirt rider]

The only thing I can really say is that at least one good thing came out of 9/11.

it really taught people (particulary children) Who true heros are Firemen/Police and Paramedics.

kids and people stopped for a shortwhile at least Worshiping dumb celebritys on TV spewing comercialized crap and got behind the firemen the medics and police

So on this 5th anniversiry think about how hard of a day it was for the fire,police and ambulane crews. insted of getting all bent out of shape over bin ladin.

Bin laden will at best die hiding in a cave and nobody will care or remeber him after awile.

[Silver]

Bin laden will at best die hiding in a cave and nobody will care or remeber him after awile.

You're kidding, right? Or stupid?

[.:Jeenyus:.]

You're kidding, right? Or stupid?

Reading the rest of his post should clear up that question.

:biggrin:

[blue]

kids and people stopped for a shortwhile at least Worshiping dumb celebritys on TV spewing comercialized crap and got behind the firemen the medics and police

So instead, now they spew nationalist-commercialist crap covered in American flags.

HOORAY!

Idiocy rocks.

[DaveW]

Yep in this case very large blinged out rocks.

[N8]

So instead, now they spew nationalist-commercialist crap covered in American flags.

HOORAY!

Idiocy rocks.

You really should live elsewhere for a while....

[Dirt rider]

You're kidding, right? Or stupid?



"AT BEST!!!" thats a best case senerio for him.

yes he might die a horrable death blown to bits by bomb.missle or bullet. and ok your right
people will remeber him for 9/11 but thats it.

The point I was getting at is: why spend this day all pissed off about terrorists, and giving them the power to contol your lives with fear. when 5 years ago 343 (I think thats the right number correct me if Im wrong) firemen lost their lives saving others.

Remeber the Heros! not the evil.

[Echo]

You really should live elsewhere for a while....
Actually, you're the one who should take the time to travel outside the US once in a while... this place sucks compared to MANY other countries I've travelled to. Yeah it's better than some, but the trend is not moving in a good direction.

[$tinkle]

Actually, you're the one who should take the time to travel outside the US once in a while... this place sucks compared to MANY other countries I've travelled to. Yeah it's better than some, but the trend is not moving in a good direction.
any recommendations? also, do we smell like foreigners when we go overseas?

[MMike]

any recommendations? also, do we smell like foreigners when we go overseas?

You smell like french fries

[rockwool]

Only if you wear all clean new clothes and don't get a tan before you go..

[T23]

Every country has its pluses and minuses, but i think echo is right, the trend here sucks and its getting worst. and as for 9/11 i don't know anymore about that whole thing, yeah i feel for all the people that died there, but what to believe as to what really happened we will probably never know....

[$tinkle]

You smell like french friesthat's about right.
but what to believe as to what really happened we will probably never know....if you mean we won't know every sordid detail, i'll agree; if you mean we won't know enough, that's our responsibility. willful ignorance of the facts simply won't do.

[valve bouncer]

any recommendations?
Based on experience/anecdotal evidence.
Hong Kong
Singapore
Malaysia
UAE
Qatar ($ only)
Argentina
Chile
Malta
South Africa
Botswana
Namibia

[JohnE]

Lighten up on Dirt Rider, he tried to get everyone to think about the victims of the attacks, not start some kind of Toby Keith love fest.

It has been 5 years, and I think we all have looked at things differently since then. I have looked at every side of this mess, and personally, I have forgiven, but will never forget. And no, I dont think our government is telling us the whole story. And yes, I think there is plenty of blame to be spread around.
But I will not profane the memory of the innocent men, women and children who died, along with the sacrifices of the police and firefighters who threw themselves into the Trade Centers without hesitation.
Forgive, but never forget...

[sunny]

Lighten up on Dirt Rider, he tried to get everyone to think about the victims of the attacks, not start some kind of Toby Keith love fest.

It has been 5 years, and I think we all have looked at things differently since then. I have looked at every side of this mess, and personally, I have forgiven, but will never forget. And no, I dont think our government is telling us the whole story. And yes, I think there is plenty of blame to be spread around.
But I will not profane the memory of the innocent men, women and children who died, along with the sacrifices of the police and firefighters who threw themselves into the Trade Centers without hesitation.
Forgive, but never forget...

How can you forgive someone who does not want to be forgiven? Who does not ask for forgiveness? Is it even possible to give forgiveness without having been petitioned for it, or at least KNOWING that it is desired?

No forgiveness without commensurate restitution and penance. Otherwise, I do not see the point.

[N8]

Actually, you're the one who should take the time to travel outside the US once in a while... this place sucks compared to MANY other countries I've travelled to. Yeah it's better than some, but the trend is not moving in a good direction.

Lived outside the US for several years... and while someplaces were fun for a while, I was always damn glad to get back here everytime.

[$tinkle]

Based on experience/anecdotal evidence.
Hong Kong
Singapore
Malaysia
UAE
Qatar ($ only)
Argentina
Chile
Malta
South Africa
Botswana
Namibiahong kong & singapore? what's that: 40 km^2; not much to see after a couple months.

south frikkin africa? you'd have to be dumb as a bag of hammers to live there. there are 8 paragraphs depicting its criminal element alone from the state dept's advisory page (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1008.html) also, it has the highest incident of reported rape in the world. (unless you count the raping of countries, & we have that hands down). only a bug-catcher would want to live in SA. they talk funny & smell like chum (at least in the coastal areas).

my neighbor went to burkina faso this summer; i'd go just to say i've been to ouagadougou.

another very dear friend just moved to kenya 2 mos ago to do aids work, and he says this is the most stable african country & very westernized in urban areas. but still, it is AFRICA

why didn't any northern european countries make your short list? it's beautiful most any time of year & is rather bike friendly.

[rockwool]

ONly Norway is bike friendly, the rest is almost as boring as the Netherlands...

[valve bouncer]

hong kong & singapore? what's that: 40 km^2; not much to see after a couple months.

south frikkin africa? you'd have to be dumb as a bag of hammers to live there. there are 8 paragraphs depicting its criminal element alone from the state dept's advisory page (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1008.html) also, it has the highest incident of reported rape in the world. (unless you count the raping of countries, & we have that hands down). only a bug-catcher would want to live in SA. they talk funny & smell like chum (at least in the coastal areas).

my neighbor went to burkina faso this summer; i'd go just to say i've been to ouagadougou.

another very dear friend just moved to kenya 2 mos ago to do aids work, and he says this is the most stable african country & very westernized in urban areas. but still, it is AFRICA

why didn't any northern european countries make your short list? it's beautiful most any time of year & is rather bike friendly.
I was basing my list on what i thought would be interesting/unusual/exciting. HK/Sing are small but you'd use it as base for exploring a wider area. Both airports are major hubs so fly to plenty of exotoc locales in the 2-3 hour range. This si of course assuming you'd be on the full expat package or at least a decent local wage.

I was hesitating about SA because of the crime though I understand the situation is much improved in recent times. If you're white, with coin and pick your spot you'll like it. Plenty of other places in Africa that'll be good if you have money. 10 years ago I wouldn't have hesitated to pick Zimbabwe but it has imploded now.

Basically any of the OECD countries would be fine, was just thinking outside of the usual places.

[blue]

Windhoek looks pretty.

The Three Burials of Melquiadas Estrada made me want to move to Mexico.

[MMike]

Lived outside the US for several years... and while someplaces were fun for a while, I was always damn glad to get back here everytime.


Military bases don't count.

[valve bouncer]

Military bases don't count.

Especially if you never go past the gates.

[blue]

I was always damn glad to get back to Shreveport, Louisiana everytime.

:brow:

[N8]

:brow:

thanks for playing dickcicle...

[jimmydean]

You smell like FREEDOM fries

Corrected. :D

[Echo]

Lived outside the US for several years... and while someplaces were fun for a while, I was always damn glad to get back here everytime.
Military doesn't count.

[N8]

Military doesn't count.

not all military time...

and yes militarty time counts... double actually.

[narlus]

Lived outside the US for several years... and while someplaces were fun for a while, I was always damn glad to get back here everytime.

i'm sure living on a military base colored the experience.

[narlus]

not all military time...

so where'd you live outside the US when you didn't wear a uniform?

[narlus]

btw, just drove back from NYC this morning...kinda surreal to be there today. i'd not been to the city since '98 or so.

[MMike]

not all military time...

and yes militarty time counts... double actually.

No. No it doesn't. It counts for nothing. There's no mess hall in the real world.

[stevew]

The Three Burials of Melquiadas Estrada made me want to move to Mexico.
It just made me want to strangle Tommy Lee Jones.

But Mexico is cool.

[N8]

It just made me want to strangle Tommy Lee Jones.

But Mexico is cool.

I can't believe i wasted 85 minutes of my life watching that flick..

[$tinkle]

ok, howsa bout some arab & iranian reactions to 9/11 (http://www.memrifilms.org/) (42 min)

just for another perspective.

[blue]

It just made me want to strangle Tommy Lee Jones.

But Mexico is cool.

I normally detest him, but I thought he wasn't terrible in that movie...but Mexico was beautiful in it. I contemplated packing up and moving to a little village with a ****ty bar for about an hour afterwards.

[JohnE]

Yeah, miltary time doesnt count. Despite the fact that some people live off base, shop on the local economy, pay local taxes, send their kids to local schools, the kids learn to speak the local language fluently, play sports on the local teams, have babies in the local hospitals, make lifelong friends with local residents, discuss politics in both the local area and the world and generally try to assimilate into the area. No, it doesnt count.
:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :banghead: :banghead:

[MMike]

Yeah, miltary time doesnt count. Despite the fact that some people live off base, shop on the local economy, pay local taxes, send their kids to local schools, the kids learn to speak the local language fluently, play sports on the local teams, have babies in the local hospitals, make lifelong friends with local residents, discuss politics in both the local area and the world and generally try to assimilate into the area. No, it doesnt count.
:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :banghead: :banghead:


So we're agreed then.

[MMike]

I FINALLY just got to watch loose change just now. A little more tin-foil hattish... but cripes... There's some funny business going on....

And actually I was jsut looking for something else....but found this instead
http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/secrethistory/

[valve bouncer]

Yeah, miltary time doesnt count. Despite the fact that some people live off base, shop on the local economy, pay local taxes, send their kids to local schools, the kids learn to speak the local language fluently, play sports on the local teams, have babies in the local hospitals, make lifelong friends with local residents, discuss politics in both the local area and the world and generally try to assimilate into the area. No, it doesnt count.
:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :banghead: :banghead:
I've yet to meet one military member here in Japan that has assimilated into the community. I can't say I've even met one member who can even speak rudimentary Japanese. The bases are purposely designed so that you don't have to interact with the local community if you don't want to. The people like you and Party's missus are the exceptions in my book, certainly in Japan anyway. Manimal was in Okinawa I believe, how much interaction did he have? How much Japanese did he learn? (genuine question Manimal btw)

[MMike]

"ya joe! me sucky sucky. ruv you rong time."

[MMike]

That IS how they speak there right?

[VaNIlLin81]

Speaking of this, I had to write an essay for history. here it is.

Dear grandson, 9/11 was the day when the Al-Qaeda sent out 19 hijackers with 4 teams to take over 4 airplanes, both having a skilled pilot. Two planes (United Airlines 175 and American Airlines 11) crashed into The World Trade Center in New York City. The other two planes crashing into the Pentagon in Arlington Virginia and the other in in Shankesville Pennsylvania. Nearly 3000 people died on 9/11. It was a day to remember.
It affected our Nation and many other nations tremendeously. It brought everyone in America closer together. Before the attacks there was many American flags hanging outside houses, after 9/11 the flags outside these house increased at a fast rate, many stores even ran out of them. This shows that we really are "Proud to be Americans".
Now grandson, I have a total different perception on this day. I believe many Americans take forgranted what we have in our lives here. None of them take in that we have never actually had a great attack in our nation. On December 7 1941, the Japan destroyed 12 of our ships and 188 aircraft. In this attack nearly 2400 Americans died. Correct me if I'm wrong but on August 6, 1945 the United States Airforce dropped the bomb "Little Boy" on the city of Hiroshima, they dropped a second bomb named "Fat Man" on Nagasaki during World War 2. We had a huge fit over the attack on Pearl Harbor, but when we go and drop two, yes, two atomic bombs on Japan we have no conscience about it.
In this bombing we, Americans, killed 140,000 in Hiroshima, and 74,000 in Nagaski. Please, look at the difference. We killed 214,000 and they attacked us and killed 1400 and destroyed 12 ships and 188 aircraft. I don't know about you but I believe in an eye for an eye. We killed nearly 89 times as many people in our bombings, that and ruined the land with radiation.
On 9/11, only a couple days later we launched the War on Terrorism. In this war, just in 2003 we killed nearly 69,000 just from 9/11 2001 to 2003. We are still, to this day killing people, just carelessly taking their lives away. The United States is one big hippicrit. We think life is something precious, but we go and kill millions of other countrys, and when another country attacks us and they don't nearly kill as many as we have, we have statues and memorials built. That's not something you want to remember, do you think the Japanese wanted to build memorials to the fact that we killed nearly 214,000 of their people, no! We are a selfious, ignorant, sad, and thoughtless.

[valve bouncer]

Speaking of this, I had to write an essay for history. here it is.

Dear grandson, 9/11 was the day when the Al-Qaeda sent out 19 hijackers with 4 teams to take over 4 airplanes, both having a skilled pilot. Two planes (United Airlines 175 and American Airlines 11) crashed into The World Trade Center in New York City. The other two planes crashing into the Pentagon in Arlington Virginia and the other in in Shankesville Pennsylvania. Nearly 3000 people died on 9/11. It was a day to remember.
It affected our Nation and many other nations tremendeously. It brought everyone in America closer together. Before the attacks there was many American flags hanging outside houses, after 9/11 the flags outside these house increased at a fast rate, many stores even ran out of them. This shows that we really are "Proud to be Americans".
Now grandson, I have a total different perception on this day. I believe many Americans take forgranted what we have in our lives here. None of them take in that we have never actually had a great attack in our nation. On December 7 1941, the Japan destroyed 12 of our ships and 188 aircraft. In this attack nearly 2400 Americans died. Correct me if I'm wrong but on August 6, 1945 the United States Airforce dropped the bomb "Little Boy" on the city of Hiroshima, they dropped a second bomb named "Fat Man" on Nagasaki during World War 2. We had a huge fit over the attack on Pearl Harbor, but when we go and drop two, yes, two atomic bombs on Japan we have no conscience about it.
In this bombing we, Americans, killed 140,000 in Hiroshima, and 74,000 in Nagaski. Please, look at the difference. We killed 214,000 and they attacked us and killed 1400 and destroyed 12 ships and 188 aircraft. I don't know about you but I believe in an eye for an eye. We killed nearly 89 times as many people in our bombings, that and ruined the land with radiation.
On 9/11, only a couple days later we launched the War on Terrorism. In this war, just in 2003 we killed nearly 69,000 just from 9/11 2001 to 2003. We are still, to this day killing people, just carelessly taking their lives away. The United States is one big hippicrit. We think life is something precious, but we go and kill millions of other countrys, and when another country attacks us and they don't nearly kill as many as we have, we have statues and memorials built. That's not something you want to remember, do you think the Japanese wanted to build memorials to the fact that we killed nearly 214,000 of their people, no! We are a selfious, ignorant, sad, and thoughtless.
I hope you haven't handed that in yet because gazing into my crystal I see red slashes all over the place with at the top "C minus- use spell check".

[stevew]

I hope you haven't handed that in yet because gazing into my crystal I see red slashes all over the place with at the top "C minus- use spell check".
How about in big red letters, "Emergency Toilet Paper".

[3D.]

Bin laden will at best die hiding in a cave and nobody will care or remeber him after awile.

Actually I heard he’s had facial reconstructive surgery and is now enjoying honest pay as a journeyman level trench digger for his father’s multi-billion dollar construction company.:bonk:

[JohnE]

I've yet to meet one military member here in Japan that has assimilated into the community. I can't say I've even met one member who can even speak rudimentary Japanese. The bases are purposely designed so that you don't have to interact with the local community if you don't want to. The people like you and Party's missus are the exceptions in my book, certainly in Japan anyway. Manimal was in Okinawa I believe, how much interaction did he have? How much Japanese did he learn? (genuine question Manimal btw)

Key phrase, and you are right; there are plenty of folks who isolate themselves in what we call "the bubble" of the base. I call them dumba$$es. You are being paid to live in a foreign country, and you are stupid if you dont get out and live a bit around. You didnt hang about in one place with your buds from Oz your first go abroad, right?
Also, if you dont meet some local types on base, you just arent trying. All US bases have quotas of locals that have to be employed on board, it just makes sense.
But anyway, I was really just objecting to MMikes blanket statement on a subject he apparently knows little to nothing about. He is genuinely a Peckerwood. :banana: :banana: :banana:

[VaNIlLin81]

Yeah yeah I know, I don't have any of that fancy crap on my laptop. I didn't go through and reread it before I posted it. I went back and made all the corrections. Wasn't as much as spell check as using words correctly.

[RenegadeRick]

Yeah yeah I know, I don't have any of that fancy crap on my laptop. I didn't go through and reread it before I posted it. I went back and made all the corrections. Wasn't as much as spell check as using words correctly.

I wasn't so conserned with duh spellin and grammer, but it was duh content that conserned me. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, do you know your teacher's attitudes on the subject? I personally have had bad experiences with telling the truth, especially when it is not politically correct. I forsee a bad outcome if you actually turn that in. Try not to get expelled.

[$tinkle]

I hope you haven't handed that in yet because gazing into my crystal I see red slashes all over the place with at the top "C minus- use spell check".don't be so hard on the beaver [american joke]; i think he should turn it in just as it is.

[Changleen]

Yeah yeah I know, I don't have any of that fancy crap on my laptop. I didn't go through and reread it before I posted it. I went back and made all the corrections. Wasn't as much as spell check as using words correctly.Good sentiment though. Can't fault that.

[MMike]

there are plenty of folks who isolate themselves in what we call "the bubble" of the base. I call them dumba$$es.

And wouldn't you think that the smart money would be on N8 being one of those dumbasses?



He is genuinely a Peckerwood.:

Well that ain't news...but I still don't think the military counts as LIVING abroad. You're still going home at night. It can count as TRAVELLING...but not actually LIVING.

I lived in Mexico....for a week....at a Club Med. It was awesome.

[DaveW]

The only thing I can really say is that at least one good thing came out of 9/11.

it really taught people (particulary children) Who true heros are Firemen/Police and Paramedics.

kids and people stopped for a shortwhile at least Worshiping dumb celebritys on TV spewing comercialized crap and got behind the firemen the medics and police

So on this 5th anniversiry think about how hard of a day it was for the fire,police and ambulane crews. insted of getting all bent out of shape over bin ladin.

Bin laden will at best die hiding in a cave and nobody will care or remeber him after awile.

This Blog here has a pretty good summing up I find. (http://publicaddress.net/default,3494.sm#post3494) :clue:
The Valerie Plame link is quite an interesting read too.

[rockwool]

Yeah yeah I know, I don't have any of that fancy crap on my laptop. I didn't go through and reread it before I posted it. I went back and made all the corrections. Wasn't as much as spell check as using words correctly.

I liked it, it put perspective on a subject which all to often lack it. But Rick might be right about thinking about your grades, dunno. I would give it a thought if your teacher is a nut and you think it might ruin all efforts you put in that class. On personal experience I was arguing with my teacher about the Bosnian conflict while that was hot. I put him to the corner by greater knowledge in that subject while he refused to listen to logical facts, typical case of brainwash, but he still gave me a good grade. So it doesn't have to mean you're gonna hang for expressing your view.

[RenegadeRick]

This Blog here has a pretty good summing up I find. (http://publicaddress.net/default,3494.sm#post3494) :clue:


Thanks DaveW. That was an interesting read. I especially enjoyed the conclusion:


But consider this: the total financial cost of the Iraq war - taking into account the cost of servicing the debt that funded it - has been repeatedly estimated in excess of a trillion dollars.

Try and imagine the impact on hearts and minds of a trillion dollars worth of benign investment in the Middle East and the wider Islamic world: in business development, health care, education, NGOs, printing books. Might things have worked out better?

[N8]

Thanks DaveW. That was an interesting read. I especially enjoyed the conclusion:

A lot of the the oil rich nations of the Middle East have a trillion dollars, but chose to spend it on other than peaceful infrastructure.

[N8]

don't be so hard on the beaver [american joke]; i think he should turn it in just as it is.



LOL!!!!

I hightly agree...!!!!

:p

[RenegadeRick]

A lot of the the oil rich nations of the Middle East have a trillion dollars, but chose to spend it on other than peaceful infrastructure.

Yeah, but those are evil Islamofascist governments. Obviously, they would spend none of it on anything but WMD.

I know this is crazy talk, but what if instead of the US spending a trillion on bombs and death, instead it was spent on education, infrastructure, food, etc. You know, maybe try killing 'em with kindness?

That kind of idea is simply :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:!
The American taxpayers would NEVER support that!

[JohnE]

Does anyone remember the "I look forward to the day when schools have everything they need and the Air Force has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber" bumper stickers?

[$tinkle]

I know this is crazy talk, but what if instead of the US spending a trillion on bombs and death, instead it was spent on education, infrastructure, food, etc. You know, maybe try killing 'em with kindness?and just what do you think KBR [halliburton sub] is doing over there? [besides keeping the baby killers fattened & armed, of course] i find it hard to believe that we supported the iraqi nat'l conress [now defunct i believe] & now support the current parliament in gesture only.

but i see your greater point: felafels, not field artillery; madrasas, not morters, and don't forget oil pipelines so we can finally collect our spoils.

[JohnE]

Speaking of this, I had to write an essay for history. here it is.

Dear grandson, 9/11 was the day when the Al-Qaeda sent out 19 hijackers with 4 teams to take over 4 airplanes, both having a skilled pilot. Two planes (United Airlines 175 and American Airlines 11) crashed into The World Trade Center in New York City. The other two planes crashing into the Pentagon in Arlington Virginia and the other in in Shankesville Pennsylvania. Nearly 3000 people died on 9/11. It was a day to remember.
It affected our Nation and many other nations tremendeously. It brought everyone in America closer together. Before the attacks there was many American flags hanging outside houses, after 9/11 the flags outside these house increased at a fast rate, many stores even ran out of them. This shows that we really are "Proud to be Americans".
Now grandson, I have a total different perception on this day. I believe many Americans take forgranted what we have in our lives here. None of them take in that we have never actually had a great attack in our nation. On December 7 1941, the Japan destroyed 12 of our ships and 188 aircraft. In this attack nearly 2400 Americans died. Correct me if I'm wrong but on August 6, 1945 the United States Airforce dropped the bomb "Little Boy" on the city of Hiroshima, they dropped a second bomb named "Fat Man" on Nagasaki during World War 2. We had a huge fit over the attack on Pearl Harbor, but when we go and drop two, yes, two atomic bombs on Japan we have no conscience about it.
In this bombing we, Americans, killed 140,000 in Hiroshima, and 74,000 in Nagaski. Please, look at the difference. We killed 214,000 and they attacked us and killed 1400 and destroyed 12 ships and 188 aircraft. I don't know about you but I believe in an eye for an eye. We killed nearly 89 times as many people in our bombings, that and ruined the land with radiation.
On 9/11, only a couple days later we launched the War on Terrorism. In this war, just in 2003 we killed nearly 69,000 just from 9/11 2001 to 2003. We are still, to this day killing people, just carelessly taking their lives away. The United States is one big hippicrit. We think life is something precious, but we go and kill millions of other countrys, and when another country attacks us and they don't nearly kill as many as we have, we have statues and memorials built. That's not something you want to remember, do you think the Japanese wanted to build memorials to the fact that we killed nearly 214,000 of their people, no! We are a selfious, ignorant, sad, and thoughtless.

And I hope that your teacher assigns you some extra work on the "Greater East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere" or perhaps the rape of Nanking, or the razing of Singapore. Bataan death march? Maybe even the firebombing of Dresden, just to keep things even. Yes,the bombs were horrible, hideous and possibly unneccesary, but in the end they may be responsible for your existence. Have a Grandfather who fought in WW2? If we had gone into mainland Japan, he may have died, thusly eliminating your existence. What a shame that would have been...
Have a look at this if you still think the Japanes were undeserving...
http://www.ww2pacific.com/atrocity.html

[Echo]

How many countries in the world have nuclear weapons? How many of those countries have used them against another country? What threat did the corner fish market in Nagasaki pose to the American way of life?

[$tinkle]

How many countries in the world have nuclear weapons? How many of those countries have used them against another country? What threat did the corner fish market in Nagasaki pose to the American way of life?only we had them then (10 or so now belong to the nukular club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_nuclear_weapons))

we have the sole distinction, obviously, of using them against a populous

the threat against our way of life was grave & imminent; what would now be called a "slam dunk"

[rockwool]

This Blog here has a pretty good summing up I find. (http://publicaddress.net/default,3494.sm#post3494) :clue:
The Valerie Plame link is quite an interesting read too.

"Adam Bogacki drew my attention to this astonishing essay from the Armed Forces Journal:

Maj. Peters, formerly assigned to the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence where he was responsible for future warfare, candidly outlines how the map of the Middle East should be fundamentally re-drawn, in a new imperial endeavour designed to correct past errors. "Without such major boundary revisions, we shall never see a more peaceful Middle East," he observes, but then adds wryly: "Oh, and one other dirty little secret from 5,000 years of history: Ethnic cleansing works."

Thus, acknowledging that the sweeping reconfiguration of borders he proposes would necessarily involve massive ethnic cleansing and accompanying bloodshed on perhaps a genocidal scale, he insists that unless it is implemented, "we may take it as an article of faith that a portion of the bloodshed in the region will continue to be our own.""


I don't even want to comment on that.

[ohio]

and just what do you think KBR [halliburton sub] is doing over there?

A lot of security work. Building bases. Overcharging the US taxpayer.

Actually, most of the infrastructure work is targetting oil, with the claim that it will allow the country to financ it's own hospitals and schools. The reality is very very different as has been proven time and time again in other developing countries. Read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" when you get a chance. We rebuilt Japan and Germany properly because of the scrutiny and oversight of the UN (and they were fortunate enough to have homogenous populations and no major natural resources). Pretty much everything we've ever had sole control over, we've abused.

[$tinkle]

Actually, most of the infrastructure work is targetting oil, with the claim that it will allow the country to financ it's own hospitals and schools.this reads like you are not happy with the given timeline & all its revisions, and are then left to believe this effort has been shelved indefinitely. time will tell.
The reality is very very different as has been proven time and time again in other developing countries. Read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" when you get a chance. We rebuilt Japan and Germany properly because of the scrutiny and oversight of the UN (and they were fortunate enough to have homogenous populations and no major natural resources). Pretty much everything we've ever had sole control over, we've abused.with the laughable indorsement of the morally bankrupt & toothless UN aside, where else have we had "sole control over"? and where did you get that germany didn't have any major natural resources? according to CIA factbook, they have coal, lignite, natural gas, iron ore, copper, nickel, uranium, potash, salt, construction materials, timber, arable land sufficient to cripple its economy if removed.

japan has fish, volcanoes, bukkake & dirty underwear in vending machines.

[DaveW]

Thanks DaveW. That was an interesting read. I especially enjoyed the conclusion:


Careful now.... ya don't want to end up looking like being one of the "15%" :ban:

[ohio]

this reads like you are not happy with the given timeline & all its revisions, and are then left to believe this effort has been shelved indefinitely. time will tell.
with the laughable indorsement of the morally bankrupt & toothless UN aside, where else have we had "sole control over"?
The UN was a different institution at the time, and there was true coalition oversight of the rebuild efforts. I don't claim that's possible or realistic with the current conflict/UN/international relations. I'm just pointing out why it worked then.

Yes, I'm not happy with the timeline, nor do I trust that it will achieve it's goals. I feel fairly confident that the funds will be funnelled to a select elite (including back into the US) and never make it to the broader population.

See venezuela, columbia, ecuador, panama, malaysia, philippines... shall I continue?

and where did you get that germany didn't have any major natural resources? according to CIA factbook, they have coal, lignite, natural gas, iron ore, copper, nickel, uranium, potash, salt, construction materials, timber, arable land sufficient to cripple its economy if removed.
Which of those did our economy desperately rely on on not have sufficient alternative source for at the time?

[$tinkle]

oh snap, i forgot this $-quote:We rebuilt Japan and Germany properly because of the scrutiny and oversight of the UN (and they were fortunate enough to have homogenous populationsyeah, i guess we should give hitler a standing-O for handling that "dirty jew" problem. and i'll assume we both know japan's rich history of racism & other subjugation (not to excuse our own, let's just not make them the battered wife just yet)I'm not happy with the timeline, nor do I trust that it will achieve it's goals. I feel fairly confident that the funds will be funnelled to a select elite (including back into the US) and never make it to the broader population.with this, i agree 100% iraq will be like any other oil-rich arab nation & we in turn will still not have exclusive oil-rights, nor a pipeline replentishing mcmurdo field.

i don't see panama as "abused" with that pesky canal, phillipines being freed from the spanish as "abused", venezuela as "abused" b/c citgo is ubiquitous in the u.s. i cannot speak to the rest in your list, but will admit curiousity as to the extent of this abuse; got a cliff's notes version handy?

as for your comment on germany, i am left to believe your point of view is that if it weren't for their lack of resources so necessary in our economy, & the UN (or league of nations, if you like), we would have unleashed a torrent of land-rape reminiscent of ghengis khan.

how would you then relate that to italy & france & our efforts to rebuild those countries [hint: it was a little north of trivial]? your point of view seems rather selective to what can make us look like the proverbial bull in a china shop, and your statement "every thing we have sole control over we have abused" is defeatist, hopeless, jaded, cynical, and negates all our effort after ww2, and further negates the lack of contributions from mother russia & other enemies-of-our-enemies [unless we count systematic genocide from the crushing oppression of communism, but i digress].

that you fail to qualify your statements with any mention of our benevolence over the generations is pretty revealing as to where you affix your gaze. i expect this from le monde reading, euro-trash, "black is my favorite color", 30 hr/week working, "the red balloon" watching "sophisticates".

if i've mischaracterized or misread your posts, please re-align me. no, i'm not menstruating

[ianjenn]

Based on experience/anecdotal evidence.
Hong Kong
Singapore
Malaysia
UAE
Qatar ($ only)
Argentina
Chile
Malta
South Africa
Botswana
Namibia
Alot of those countries you mentioned have stong Islamic groups in em, no thanks! Hong Kong? Maybe China 1 day will decide to sail over their way and overtake it again. The best thing about this country is being able to do things, being able to make money and being able to leave it at anytime. Its funny how so many people want to move here from other countries and there are alot over here that feel the smae way. THE GRASS IS ALWAYS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE.

[narlus]

not all military time...

so where'd you live outside the US when you didn't wear a uniform?

[ohio]

oh snap, i forgot this $-quote:yeah, i guess we should give hitler a standing-O for handling that "dirty jew" problem. and i'll assume we both know japan's rich history of racism & other subjugation (not to excuse our own, let's just not make them the battered wife just yet)with this, i agree 100% iraq will be like any other oil-rich arab nation & we in turn will still not have exclusive oil-rights, nor a pipeline replentishing mcmurdo field.
Obviously, I'm not crediting Hitler with Germany's post WWII success. I'm pointing out the the challenges were fewer culturally in Germany and Japan than in Iraq. Did I really need to explain that to you?

i don't see panama as "abused" with that pesky canal, phillipines being freed from the spanish as "abused", venezuela as "abused" b/c citgo is ubiquitous in the u.s. i cannot speak to the rest in your list, but will admit curiousity as to the extent of this abuse; got a cliff's notes version handy?
Again, read Confessions (http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-an-Economic-Hit-Man/dp/1576753018). It's short, factual, and written in (painfully) simple language. As Cliff's Notes as it gets...

as for your comment on germany, i am left to believe your point of view is that if it weren't for their lack of resources so necessary in our economy, & the UN (or league of nations, if you like), we would have unleashed a torrent of land-rape reminiscent of ghengis khan.
I think we all accept the League of Nations was a failure. I think it was a combination of that lesson being readily apparent, and the oversight provided by a coalition of the allied forces that ensured the rebuild effort was forward thinking and fair. Yes, had we not had the benefit of just enduring a war that resulted partly from greed (oppressive restittution), and several other countries looking on, I think we would have raped Germany. Then again, they're pretty white, so maybe we wouldn't have.

how would you then relate that to italy & france & our efforts to rebuild those countries [hint: it was a little north of trivial]?
I lump Itay in with our efforts in Germany, and France with England... besides aid to allies is a completely different situation.
your point of view seems rather selective to what can make us look like the proverbial bull in a china shop, and your statement "every thing we have sole control over we have abused" is defeatist, hopeless, jaded, cynical, and negates all our effort after ww2,
Show me the exceptions that I failed to select.

and further negates the lack of contributions from mother russia & other enemies-of-our-enemies [unless we count systematic genocide from the crushing oppression of communism, but i digress].
I don't think I ever claimed that others contributed more, or more altruistically. If so, please point it out. Or you could just make up outrageous statements and pretend to argue against those. Seems to work pretty well...

that you fail to qualify your statements with any mention of our benevolence over the generations is pretty revealing as to where you affix your gaze.
Please, offer counter-examples of this benevolence.

i expect this from le monde reading, euro-trash, "black is my favorite color", 30 hr/week working, "the red balloon" watching "sophisticates".
Good thing you're not arguing with one of those, or you'd know what to expect.

[MMike]

so where'd you live outside the US when you didn't wear a uniform?


Are you new? You won't get an answer......

[narlus]

he's like bush...he can just make crap come out of his mouth w/ no way to back it up, and he doesn't even try.

[Munster]

I like the way Lewis Black puts it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01gcnYzHzE0

[$tinkle]

Obviously, I'm not crediting Hitler with Germany's post WWII success. I'm pointing out the the challenges were fewer culturally in Germany and Japan than in Iraq. Did I really need to explain that to you?so perhaps we should step back for a while - even take murtha's recommendation to re-deploy to okinawa - as to better assure our success. i'm only half-kidding
Again, read Confessions (http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-an-Economic-Hit-Man/dp/1576753018). It's short, factual, and written in (painfully) simple language. As Cliff's Notes as it gets...after reading a few excerpts from amazon, it's on my wish list. you might also enjoy Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805078614/ref=wl_it_dp/002-0735738-7001620?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3BV6GEXX195MG&colid=1K5FQLOK4YP2B) (i was actually watching booktv & this was featured - i don't ride in the rain) also, i greatly enjoyed freakanomics (http://www.amazon.com/Freakonomics-Economist-Explores-Hidden-Everything/dp/006073132X/sr=8-1/qid=1158117612/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-0735738-7001620?ie=UTF8&s=books), and it shaped my thinking noticeably.
I think we would have raped Germany. Then again, they're pretty white, so maybe we wouldn't have.should've clearcut the schwarzwald when we had the chance
Show me the exceptions that I failed to select.this is simply an intractable demand. your statement painted the u.s. with too broad a brush, as i could've done if i stuck a flag up my ass & farted "hail to the chief"
I don't think I ever claimed that others contributed more, or more altruistically. If so, please point it out. Or you could just make up outrageous statements and pretend to argue against those. Seems to work pretty well...i won't make up outrageous statements when yours will suffice; again, i am not convinced we have whatever the opposite of the midas touch is
Please, offer counter-examples of this benevolence.we both know our country hasn't been administered by the boy scouts. this doesn't exactly put us on par w/ the khmer rouge.

let's walk the cat back, shall we?

[WheelieMan]

Speaking of this, I had to write an essay for history. here it is.

Dear grandson, 9/11 was the day when the Al-Qaeda sent out 19 hijackers with 4 teams to take over 4 airplanes, both having a skilled pilot. Two planes (United Airlines 175 and American Airlines 11) crashed into The World Trade Center in New York City. The other two planes crashing into the Pentagon in Arlington Virginia and the other in in Shankesville Pennsylvania. Nearly 3000 people died on 9/11. It was a day to remember.
It affected our Nation and many other nations tremendeously. It brought everyone in America closer together. Before the attacks there was many American flags hanging outside houses, after 9/11 the flags outside these house increased at a fast rate, many stores even ran out of them. This shows that we really are "Proud to be Americans".
Now grandson, I have a total different perception on this day. I believe many Americans take forgranted what we have in our lives here. None of them take in that we have never actually had a great attack in our nation. On December 7 1941, the Japan destroyed 12 of our ships and 188 aircraft. In this attack nearly 2400 Americans died. Correct me if I'm wrong but on August 6, 1945 the United States Airforce dropped the bomb "Little Boy" on the city of Hiroshima, they dropped a second bomb named "Fat Man" on Nagasaki during World War 2. We had a huge fit over the attack on Pearl Harbor, but when we go and drop two, yes, two atomic bombs on Japan we have no conscience about it.
In this bombing we, Americans, killed 140,000 in Hiroshima, and 74,000 in Nagaski. Please, look at the difference. We killed 214,000 and they attacked us and killed 1400 and destroyed 12 ships and 188 aircraft. I don't know about you but I believe in an eye for an eye. We killed nearly 89 times as many people in our bombings, that and ruined the land with radiation.
On 9/11, only a couple days later we launched the War on Terrorism. In this war, just in 2003 we killed nearly 69,000 just from 9/11 2001 to 2003. We are still, to this day killing people, just carelessly taking their lives away. The United States is one big hippicrit. We think life is something precious, but we go and kill millions of other countrys, and when another country attacks us and they don't nearly kill as many as we have, we have statues and memorials built. That's not something you want to remember, do you think the Japanese wanted to build memorials to the fact that we killed nearly 214,000 of their people, no! We are a selfious, ignorant, sad, and thoughtless.

I'm not sure what's more disturbing... your exploitation of the 9/11 tragedy or misrepresentation of the facts.

We didn't drop the atomic bomb on Japan simply in retaliation for Pearl Harbor, so trying to compare casualties as if they are directly related is outrageous.
We didn't go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan simply because of 9/11 either.
Also, I consider it misguided to claim that the United States is directly responsible for the 69,000 casualties in the "War on Terror". The majority of the casualties as reported by the media includes deaths caused by the terrorists... (car bombs, etc...) Are you not able to see the distinction? Harry Truman knew full well that his one decision would end the lives of tens of thousands of people. This is a far cry from our current tactics, where very rarely are civilians intentionally targeted. So if you want to play the comparison game, President Truman is 89 times worse than President Bush right? Sounds like you need to be angry at your grandfather's generation 89 times more than ours too.

I hope that one day you are able to view the tragedy of 9/11 at its most basic level, without all the confusion.

[rockwool]

A lot of security work. Building bases. Overcharging the US taxpayer.

Actually, most of the infrastructure work is targetting oil, with the claim that it will allow the country to financ it's own hospitals and schools. The reality is very very different as has been proven time and time again in other developing countries. Read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" when you get a chance. We rebuilt Japan and Germany properly because of the scrutiny and oversight of the UN (and they were fortunate enough to have homogenous populations and no major natural resources). Pretty much everything we've ever had sole control over, we've abused.

Agree, but don't forget that every effort was put in to rebuild West Germany to stand as a role model for capitalism, as it also was viewed, to be compared directly against its devided half.

I like the way Lewis Black puts it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01gcnYzHzE0

That was some good isht!

I'm not sure what's more disturbing... your exploitation of the 9/11 tragedy or misrepresentation of the facts.

We didn't drop the atomic bomb on Japan simply in retaliation for Pearl Harbor, so trying to compare casualties as if they are directly related is outrageous.
We didn't go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan simply because of 9/11 either.
Also, I consider it misguided to claim that the United States is directly responsible for the 69,000 casualties in the "War on Terror". The majority of the casualties as reported by the media includes deaths caused by the terrorists... (car bombs, etc...) Are you not able to see the distinction? Harry Truman knew full well that his one decision would end the lives of tens of thousands of people. This is a far cry from our current tactics, where very rarely are civilians intentionally targeted. So if you want to play the comparison game, President Truman is 89 times worse than President Bush right? Sounds like you need to be angry at your grandfather's generation 89 times more than ours too.

I hope that one day you are able to view the tragedy of 9/11 at its most basic level, without all the confusion.

The reasons for dropping them bombs had little to do with saving the lives of US soldiers. They were mostly to show the world who's got the wallet that says "bad motherfokker" onnit. Afghanistan was for no wellmeaning reasons eather.

The sectarian killings and everything else that has happened in Iraq and Afghanistan is because of the coalitions wars. The missery that comes with war is waay greater than just those that die by the bullets of the agressor.
That civilians aren't intentionally targeted is just a change in rethorics, compared to WWII, because it's no longer considered to be politcaly correct, and actaly is a criminal act. At best 9/11 has been exploited by the current administration and its allies for their personal economical gain and hunger for power. At worst they are the ones that staged the whole thing for the same reasons.

[Changleen]

I'm not sure what's more disturbing... your exploitation of the 9/11 tragedy or misrepresentation of the facts.I think it's people like you who can't understand cause and effect actually.

[RenegadeRick]

We didn't go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan simply because of 9/11 either.


um, yes we did.

Afghanistan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._invasion_of_Afghanistan
At approximately 16:30 UTC (12:30 EDT, 21:00 local time) on Sunday October 7, 2001, American and British forces began an aerial bombing campaign targeting Taliban forces and al-Qaeda. Strikes were reported in the capital, Kabul (where electricity supplies were severed), at the airport and military nerve-centre of Kandahar (home of the Taliban's Supreme Leader Mullah Omar), and also in the city of Jalalabad (military/terrorist training camps). The U.S. government justified these attacks as a response to the September 11, 2001 attacks and the failure of the Taliban to meet any U.S. demands.


http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/20/gen.bush.transcript/
On September the 11th, enemies of freedom committed an act of war against our country. Americans have known wars, but for the past 136 years they have been wars on foreign soil, except for one Sunday in 1941. Americans have known the casualties of war, but not at the center of a great city on a peaceful morning.

A[m]ericans have known surprise attacks, but never before on thousands of civilians. All of this was brought upon us in a single day, and night fell on a different world, a world where freedom itself is under attack.

Americans have many questions tonight. Americans are asking, "Who attacked our country?"

The evidence we have gathered all points to a collection of loosely affiliated terrorist organizations known as al Qaeda. They are some of the murderers indicted for bombing American embassies in Tanzania and Kenya and responsible for bombing the USS Cole.

....

They are recruited from their own nations and neighborhoods and brought to camps in places like Afghanistan where they are trained in the tactics of terror. They are sent back to their homes or sent to hide in countries around the world to plot evil and destruction. The leadership of al Qaeda has great influence in Afghanistan and supports the Taliban regime in controlling most of that country. In Afghanistan we see al Qaeda's vision for the world. Afghanistan's people have been brutalized, many are starving and many have fled.


Iraq:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq
In the wake of the September 11 attacks and the seeming relative success of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, the Bush administration felt that it had sufficient military justification and public support in the United States for further operations against perceived threats in the Middle East. The relations between some coalition members and Iraq had never improved since 1991, and the nations remained in a state of low-level conflict marked by American and British air-strikes, sanctions, and threats against Iraq. Iraqi radar had also locked onto and anti-aircraft guns and missiles were fired upon coalition airplanes enforcing the northern and southern no-fly zones, which had been implemented after the Gulf War in 1991.

Throughout 2002, the U.S. administration made it clear that removing Saddam Hussein from power was a major goal, although it offered to accept major changes in Iraqi military and foreign policy in lieu of this. Specifically, the stated justification for the invasion included Iraqi production and use of weapons of mass destruction, alleged links with terrorist organizations, and human rights violations in Iraq under the Saddam Hussein government. Bush and his cabinet repeatedly linked the Hussein government to the September 11th attacks, despite the fact that there was no convincing evidence of Hussein's involvement.

[ohio]

this is simply an intractable demand. your statement painted the u.s. with too broad a brush, as i could've done if i stuck a flag up my ass & farted "hail to the chief"
i won't make up outrageous statements when yours will suffice; again, i am not convinced we have whatever the opposite of the midas touch is
we both know our country hasn't been administered by the boy scouts. this doesn't exactly put us on par w/ the khmer rouge.

I'll have to keep this short and will hopefully remember to come back to it later. Just to be clear, I'm not claiming there are other countries (and/or political parties) that would have done any better, and many of them far worse, when left to their own devices and selfish interests. Almost without exception all of these groups are shortsighted in addition to their clear self-interest, and that's a dangerous combination.

I have little faith in this process, because we have refused to allow coordination/coopoeration with dissenting views and strategies WITHIN our own country, let alone from without, when ultimately that humility and fallibility protects us from ourselves.

(Ill have to read Overthrow... and embarassingly, I've only read excerpts of Freakonomics)

[$tinkle]

um, yes we did.i think he meant 9/11 was a necessary, but not sufficient, condition

[$tinkle]

I'll have to keep this short and will hopefully remember to come back to it later. Just to be clear, I'm not claiming there are other countries (and/or political parties) that would have done any better, and many of them far worse, when left to their own devices and selfish interests. Almost without exception all of these groups are shortsighted in addition to their clear self-interest, and that's a dangerous combination.

I have little faith in this process, because we have refused to allow coordination/coopoeration with dissenting views and strategies WITHIN our own country, let alone from without, when ultimately that humility and fallibility protects us from ourselves.agreed.

[WheelieMan]

um, yes we did.

Afghanistan:



Iraq:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq
Prior to the invasion, the United States' official position was that Iraq was in violation of UN Security Council Resolution 1441 regarding weapons of mass destruction and had to be disarmed by force.

WMD was not the main reason we went into Iraq????

[rockwool]

You have to differentiate what politicians say, and what they mean or are thinking at when they say something..

[$tinkle]

so 9/11 == wmd?

[rockwool]

9/11 = viking like bezerk looting

[RenegadeRick]

WMD was not the main reason we went into Iraq????

WMD seasoned with a dash of fear from 9/11.

Without 9/11 Americans would not have been able to picture Islamofascists (or whatever the term would have been in 2003) harming the American people.

"Sure lots of states have WMD, but why does this matter to me?"

[$tinkle]

pakistan?

[Changleen]

ISI - Follow the money.

[$tinkle]

ISI - Follow the money.yeah, sumthin's efft-up there.

and you know me...

[RenegadeRick]

yeah, sumthin's efft-up there.

and you know me...

Yeah, I had never heard that Pakistani ISI stuff before I watched 9/11: Press for Truth.

Anyone know anything more about this?

[$tinkle]

found something at global research (http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO111A.html)

dig, dig, dig....more later

[Old Man G Funk]

WMD was not the main reason we went into Iraq????
I'd say that none of us know for sure the real reason we went into Iraq. The admin. certainly made ties to 9/11, they played up any intel that pointed to WMD while simultaneously downplayed any intel that contradicted that view, and they made non-existent links to al-Qaeda.

The best I can tell, the reason we went into Iraq is because some one or some group in power wanted to and felt that the American people could be whipped up into enough frenzy to go along with it due to 9/11.

[RenegadeRick]

I'd say that none of us know for sure the real reason we went into Iraq.
Amen!

The best I can tell, the reason we went into Iraq is because some one or some group in power wanted to and felt that the American people could be whipped up into enough frenzy to go along with it due to 9/11.

:disgust1:

Should the American people not be the group in power? Surely the government exists with the permission of the people, no?

You can't seriously be saying that Americans are just too distracted by Survivor and American Idol to get off their fat, SUV driving, freedom fry smelling asses and give a funk that they have been lied to. I must be confused as to your point.

[ohio]

agreed.

Now what specifically kills me about the profiteering in this case, is that it may well crush our economy and our security in the long run, and it results from a war entirely created, I would even say manufactured, by the US. While we would like to think that at least the money is funnelling back to US corporations, it is in fact funnelling back to US-based corporations. A minimal amount of our tax-payer money that is flowing to the Bechtels and KBRs will recirculate through our economy thanks to the wonderful mechanism of globalization. What you are hearing is the huge sucking sound of a trillion taxpayer dollars being sucked overseas and into a few select pockets. In the meantime, it's not just distracting us from issues like education and domestic investment in R&D and manufacturing, it's starving those programs even from the people who haven't been distracted. And if, god forbid, they try to mention it ("please, let's focus on America") we're labelled as aiding the terrorists (by the way, another completely manufactured and abused term. Thanks, Mr. President for creating your own enemy and then either through cultural idiocy or cunning purpose helping them organize themselves from a thousand impotent factions to a single, powerful, cohesive body).

How anyone can simply accept where we are now as where we are now, and not hold that against the administration and majority of congress is beyond me. How can you not feel duped, cheated, lied to, abused as a public? Even if you support the latest strategy in Iraq (now that we're there, we've got to stay the course), how can you allow the team who put us there to sit in office? If I ran you through 2/3rds of a meat-grinder for my own damn pleasure, sure the easiest way out is the last 1/3rd, but would you still support me as your valiant leader?

[Old Man G Funk]

Now what specifically kills me about the profiteering in this case, is that it may well crush our economy and our security in the long run, and it results from a war entirely created, I would even say manufactured, by the US. While we would like to think that at least the money is funnelling back to US corporations, it is in fact funnelling back to US-based corporations. A minimal amount of our tax-payer money that is flowing to the Bechtels and KBRs will recirculate through our economy thanks to the wonderful mechanism of globalization. What you are hearing is the huge sucking sound of a trillion taxpayer dollars being sucked overseas and into a few select pockets. In the meantime, it's not just distracting us from issues like education and domestic investment in R&D and manufacturing, it's starving those programs even from the people who haven't been distracted. And if, god forbid, they try to mention it ("please, let's focus on America") we're labelled as aiding the terrorists (by the way, another completely manufactured and abused term. Thanks, Mr. President for creating your own enemy and then either through cultural idiocy or cunning purpose helping them organize themselves from a thousand impotent factions to a single, powerful, cohesive body).

How anyone can simply accept where we are now as where we are now, and not hold that against the administration and majority of congress is beyond me. How can you not feel duped, cheated, lied to, abused as a public? Even if you support the latest strategy in Iraq (now that we're there, we've got to stay the course), how can you allow the team who put us there to sit in office? If I ran you through 2/3rds of a meat-grinder for my own damn pleasure, sure the easiest way out is the last 1/3rd, but would you still support me as your valiant leader?

Well said.

[N8]

How anyone can simply accept where we are now as where we are now, and not hold that against the administration and majority of congress is beyond me. How can you not feel duped, cheated, lied to, abused as a public? If I ran you through 2/3rds of a meat-grinder for my own damn pleasure, sure the easiest way out is the last 1/3rd, but would you still support me as your valiant leader?



No sh!t I used to feel that way too...


Until the Clintons/Algore were tossed out of office and the Dim's lost control of Congress.

:p

[Old Man G Funk]

No sh!t I used to feel that way too...


Until the Clintons/Algore were tossed out of office and the Dim's lost control of Congress.

:p

So it was Clinton/Gore that got us into Iraq? Wow, I didn't know that.

[$tinkle]

Thanks, Mr. President for creating your own enemy and then either through cultural idiocy or cunning purpose helping them organize themselves from a thousand impotent factions to a single, powerful, cohesive body).so bush, perle, et. al., radicalised muslims? was al-qaeda impotent when they aided hezbollah in the bombing of the khobar towers in 1996? was al-queda impotent when they bombed 2 u.s. embassies, killling hundreds, within the same hour in 1998? or the uss cole in 2000?
If I ran you through 2/3rds of a meat-grinder for my own damn pleasure, sure the easiest way out is the last 1/3rd, but would you still support me as your valiant leader?the seeming alternative - which in my estimation is equivalent to appeasement - was addressed 70 years ago by winston churchill when he said: "Appeasement is like feeding a crocodile one bite at a time in the hope that he eats you last."

it's utterly incomprehensible that resisting terrorism is the very cause of it.

[N8]

So it was Clinton/Gore that got us into Iraq? Wow, I didn't know that.

You really don't know much does ya?

Revelation: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2283925&postcount=100

[Echo]

so bush, perle, et. al., radicalised muslims? was al-qaeda impotent when they aided hezbollah in the bombing of the khobar towers in 1996? was al-queda impotent when they bombed 2 u.s. embassies, killling hundreds, within the same hour in 1998? or the uss cole in 2000?
And those things have what to do with Iraq?

Oh yeah, all them durn ay-rabs is the same right billy jim-bob?

[BurlyShirley]

And those things have what to do with Iraq?

Oh yeah, all them durn ay-rabs is the same right billy jim-bob?

Im not saying I agree w/ anyone but radical islam has nothing to do w/ geographical or political borders.

[Echo]

Im not saying I agree w/ anyone but radical islam has nothing to do w/ geographical or political borders.
Then why haven't we invaded Syria, Pakistan, etc? Oh yeah, because they would kick our asses.

[ohio]

so bush, perle, et. al., radicalised muslims? was al-qaeda impotent when they aided hezbollah in the bombing of the khobar towers in 1996? was al-queda impotent when they bombed 2 u.s. embassies, killling hundreds, within the same hour in 1998? or the uss cole in 2000?
No, clearly radicals already existed, but they were factioned. Iraq provided a magnet for them to join forces. Bush provided rhetoric that helped them see through their differences and unify. And the scale and consipcuousness of the conflict has encouraged those who weren't radical to become so. I never said radicalism didn't exist. I said there are more radicals and they are more powerful now than they were before. Kind of Obi-wan Kinobe-ish...

the seeming alternative - which in my estimation is equivalent to appeasement - was addressed 70 years ago by winston churchill when he said: "Appeasement is like feeding a crocodile one bite at a time in the hope that he eats you last."

it's utterly incomprehensible that resisting terrorism is the very cause of it.
What I offered was that we SHOULD stay the course. We have to. But we don't have to reward the jackass that put us on that course.

And there are many ways to resist terrorism. The alternative isn't to NOT resist terrorism. It's to be (at least) mildly intelligent about how we fight it. There are many ways to fight fire... we chose to blow on it really hard.

[$tinkle]

you people are like frikkin' bees! i'll never get back to listening to rush at this rate.

[Silver]

it's utterly incomprehensible that resisting terrorism is the very cause of it.

Ok, another grade school analogy. Let's pretend you got bit by a dog on the way to school. It's a mean, possibly rabid dog. It took a nip out of you that hurt pretty bad, but it certainly didn't come close to killing you.

Now you come home, and realize that your neighbour's puppy is next door. He's a dog, and a dog bit you! Plus, you've heard your neighbour complain that the puppy pees on the rug! Eureka. (As an added bonus, the puppy is easy to get to, and he's pretty little, so he'll be easier to abuse then the dog that bit you.) You go over, and beat the puppy with a stick everyday. The puppy grows up, and bites you when you come over to beat it with a stick one day, and you lose your hand.

Next week we'll go over your multiplication tables. I expect you to know up to 4...

(You may also notice I didn't mention the dog that bit you in the first place...how's Osama doing?)

[Old Man G Funk]

so bush, perle, et. al., radicalised muslims? was al-qaeda impotent when they aided hezbollah in the bombing of the khobar towers in 1996? was al-queda impotent when they bombed 2 u.s. embassies, killling hundreds, within the same hour in 1998? or the uss cole in 2000?
Straw man argument. That is NOT what he said.
the seeming alternative - which in my estimation is equivalent to appeasement - was addressed 70 years ago by winston churchill when he said: "Appeasement is like feeding a crocodile one bite at a time in the hope that he eats you last."
False dichotomy.
it's utterly incomprehensible that resisting terrorism is the very cause of it.
Another straw man. No one said that.

[Old Man G Funk]

You really don't know much does ya?

Revelation: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2283925&postcount=100
Was linking to the post above supposed to demonstrate something? And, if I don't know much, what does that say about you?

[$tinkle]

Ok, another grade school analogy. Let's pretend you got bit by a dog on the way to school. It's a mean, possibly rabid dog. It took a nip out of you that hurt pretty bad, but it certainly didn't come close to killing you.so this was an unprovoked attack by an animal acting on its hard-to-reverse instincts (i.e. indoctrination). was this first unexpected attack supposed to happen when i was walking to school during the clinton administration? (if there was a previous attack by al-queda i'm unaware of, do kindly inform).
Now you come home, and realize that your neighbour's puppy is next door. He's a dog, and a dog bit you! Plus, you've heard your neighbour complain that the puppy pees on the rug! Eureka. (As an added bonus, the puppy is easy to get to, and he's pretty little, so he'll be easier to abuse then the dog that bit you.) You go over, and beat the puppy with a stick everyday. The puppy grows up, and bites you when you come over to beat it with a stick one day, and you lose your hand. ah, i think i get it: the big dog is in afghanistan (where i was walking to my madrassa?), and the puppy (iraq, right?) has been put on notice by neighborhood watch (the feckless UN) to stop peeing on the rug (or else!! this is your 4h from the last warning!!) with the memory of its previous acts of aggression against dogs in its own yard & other neighboring dogs, & even me a decade before. then, i get a few other less-threatening, but still threatened (by their own admission) neighbors, & we beat it to a bloody pulp. then, it licks its wounds & morphs into another breed & becomes truly rabid, lashing out at me, my neighbors, and even itself.
tell me: this hand that i lost...was this my shooting hand?
and do you think i went in his yard to take his dog food?
Next week we'll go over your multiplication tables. I expect you to know up to 4...the jihadists know up to 72
(You may also notice I didn't mention the dog that bit you in the first place...how's Osama doing?)he's dead; ann told me so.

[$tinkle]

Straw man argument. That is NOT what he said.here's what ohio said:Thanks, Mr. President for creating your own enemy and then either through cultural idiocy or cunning purpose helping them organize themselves from a thousand impotent factions to a single, powerful, cohesive body).the 3 terrorist acts i reminded us of happened before w was prez, & i fail to see how mass murder by al-queda (the tap root of terrorism) can be trivilialized as impotent. that w was culturally idiotic does not absolve the terrorists' ideology. [and please make no mistake, this is a war of ideology, promulgated through terror]

and another thing to you who espouse the idea that "iraq has become a magnet for terrorism". how do intend to keep the magnet charged? do you actually think containment can work ** this time **? why would it? we had 100 insurgents [sic] (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1152AP_Afghan_Taliban_Photo.html) in our sights days ago, but refused to take them out for what amounts to be amnesia that we're at war.

* spit *

[Old Man G Funk]

here's what ohio said:the 3 terrorist acts i reminded us of happened before w was prez, & i fail to see how mass murder by al-queda (the tap root of terrorism) can be trivilialized as impotent. that w was culturally idiotic does not absolve the terrorists' ideology. [and please make no mistake, this is a war of ideology, promulgated through terror]
You are the one that acted like Ohio said there was no radicalism before 9/11. And, obviously the terrorist groups had some punch before the response to 9/11. I hardly think he meant that the response to 9/11 is what provoked 9/11 in the first place. But, by and large, most of the terrorist cells were impotent and isolated. Now, due to the actions of our fearless leader, they are united against us and more powerful than before. We are creating more and more terrorists with our callous actions.
and another thing to you who espouse the idea that "iraq has become a magnet for terrorism". how do intend to keep the magnet charged? do you actually think containment can work ** this time **? why would it? we had 100 insurgents [sic] (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1152AP_Afghan_Taliban_Photo.html) in our sights days ago, but refused to take them out for what amounts to be amnesia that we're at war.

* spit *
Why would I want to keep the magnet charged? That's a rather odd question. Either way, it's all a red herring. You counter the claim that Iraq is a magnet of terrorism due to Bush's actions by demanding to know what I'm going to do about it? How bizarre.

[ohio]

the 3 terrorist acts i reminded us of happened before w was prez, & i fail to see how mass murder by al-queda (the tap root of terrorism) can be trivilialized as impotent.

Yup, and lets compare scale.

How many Americans died in those 3 attacks? How many have died in Iraq?

How many did Al Qaeda count among it's members at the time of those three attacks? How many now?

I'm not absolving anyone. We should wipe those ****ers off the face of the earth. But do you really insist that the best way to achieve that was to invade a country where they weren't?

[Old Man G Funk]

so this was an unprovoked attack by an animal acting on its hard-to-reverse instincts (i.e. indoctrination). was this first unexpected attack supposed to happen when i was walking to school during the clinton administration? (if there was a previous attack by al-queda i'm unaware of, do kindly inform).
Hard to reverse instincts? C'mon, you're being obtuse.

Whether Al-Qaeda attacked us during Clinton's time first or not, what does that have to do with Iraq? The analogy stands.
ah, i think i get it: the big dog is in afghanistan (where i was walking to my madrassa?), and the puppy (iraq, right?) has been put on notice by neighborhood watch (the feckless UN) to stop peeing on the rug (or else!! this is your 4h from the last warning!!) with the memory of its previous acts of aggression against dogs in its own yard & other neighboring dogs, & even me a decade before. then, i get a few other less-threatening, but still threatened (by their own admission) neighbors, & we beat it to a bloody pulp. then, it licks its wounds & morphs into another breed & becomes truly rabid, lashing out at me, my neighbors, and even itself.
The UN? More red herring, and you've subtly shifted from the dog being Al Qaeda to being Iraq.

[N8]

Hard to reverse instincts? C'mon, you're being obtuse.

Whether Al-Qaeda attacked us during Clinton's time first or not, what does that have to do with Iraq? The analogy stands.

The UN? More red herring, and you've subtly shifted from the dog being Al Qaeda to being Iraq.

You need to work your favorite term "red herring" into your comments somehow.

[Old Man G Funk]

You need to work your favorite term "red herring" into your comments somehow.
And you need to tweak your auto-reply. You tried to say something substantive not too long ago. You should look into that.

[$tinkle]

You are the one that acted like Ohio said there was no radicalism before 9/11. And, obviously the terrorist groups had some punch before the response to 9/11. I hardly think he meant that the response to 9/11 is what provoked 9/11 in the first place. But, by and large, most of the terrorist cells were impotent and isolated. Now, due to the actions of our fearless leader, they are united against us and more powerful than before. We are creating more and more terrorists with our callous actions.it seems that for the purpose of this thread, "impotent & isolated" means "not within the lower 48", but what is minimized is they ran a sovereign nation (afghanistan). we kicked the camel $hi7 out of them, and do you think anybody else noticed? and after we toppled iraq, do you think anybody else noticed? do you see radical islam bloodying us up over here? please take note of this: 23 yala banks hit by bomb blasts in thailand - aug 31st (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/08/31/headlines/headlines_30012441.php) & the mumbai bombings (w/ al-queda links), and the phillipines last summer, and in saudi arabia, and malaysia, spain, italy, germany, france, syria (yesterday), the UK, bali, ethiopia, morrocco, somalia, and oh-yeah i almost forgot about 1/2 of sudan. see a theme here? [hint: has nothing to do w/ our occupation of these named places].

for a group that is seemingly united against us, they sure behave like a bunch of keystone cops & can't seem to find the 4th biggest country in the world with what you seem to think has a big "kick-me" sign on it. or could it be that they know this is a fight that can't win over here, so they pick on children-of-a-lesser-god types elsewhere?
Why would I want to keep the magnet charged? That's a rather odd question. Either way, it's all a red herring. You counter the claim that Iraq is a magnet of terrorism due to Bush's actions by demanding to know what I'm going to do about it? How bizarre.you're correct, i was being bizarre; i actually thought you wanted to do something about this pesky terrorism problem. (short of actually fighting it, that is)

[ohio]

they ran a sovereign nation (afghanistan).
Define your "they."

[Old Man G Funk]

it seems that for the purpose of this thread, "impotent & isolated" means "not within the lower 48", but what is minimized is they ran a sovereign nation (afghanistan).
No, they had ties with a sovereign nation called Pakistan which installed the Taliban who in turn helped facilitate the training camps. Note, however, that Iraq was NOT part of the equation.
we kicked the camel $hi7 out of them, and do you think anybody else noticed?
Yet Afghanistan is still in shamble, Osama is still at large, and the Taliban is still around and causing trouble.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have gone into Afghanistan, I'm saying we should have done the job right and not turned our attention to a country that had nothing to do with it. If anyone didn't notice what happened in Afghanistan it was the administration.
and after we toppled iraq, do you think anybody else noticed?
Hell yeah people noticed. The radical muslims saw a power vaccuum and a chance to spread their influence to a place where they were largely shut out, as well as a place to have live training camps against American soldiers who are at a distinct disadvantage in many instances.
do you see radical islam bloodying us up over here? please take note of this: 23 yala banks hit by bomb blasts in thailand - aug 31st (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/08/31/headlines/headlines_30012441.php) & the mumbai bombings (w/ al-queda links), and the phillipines last summer, and in saudi arabia, and malaysia, spain, italy, germany, france, syria (yesterday), the UK, bali, ethiopia, morrocco, somalia, and oh-yeah i almost forgot about 1/2 of sudan. see a theme here? [hint: has nothing to do w/ our occupation of these named places].
No, we've been attacked once or twice by radical Islam in our history, but none lately. Of course, the rise of radical Islam in all those places you cite should be disturbing, because how long do you think it will be before those new hot spots do become our problem. Add the rise of radical Islam in Iraq and them killing American soldiers, turning Iraq into a civil war and a blood bath, and you've got a pretty messed up situation.
for a group that is seemingly united against us, they sure behave like a bunch of keystone cops & can't seem to find the 4th biggest country in the world with what you seem to think has a big "kick-me" sign on it. or could it be that they know this is a fight that can't win over here, so they pick on children-of-a-lesser-god types elsewhere?
That might be true to some extent. It might be easier to foment in other locations, but how long until it does spill over?
you're correct, i was being bizarre; i actually thought you wanted to do something about this pesky terrorism problem. (short of actually fighting it, that is)
So, because I point out your logical fallacy that means I don't want to do something about the problem? Should I point out that that is simply more logical fallacy?

[$tinkle]

Yup, and lets compare scale.

How many Americans died in those 3 attacks? How many have died in Iraq?
al-Q exacted these attacks on the embassies (killing mostly brown indigenous types; "lesser" people). a few dozen between khobar towers & the uss cole was 17 or so. but let's also look at the situations of these attacks: they were ambushes, plain & simple, outside of the theater of war. is this how you'd rather have it? a few dozen expected yet "tolerable" deaths? (OLGF, before you jump on my hump about false dichotomy, recall you have no recourse to counter terrorist groups but to hunt them down; sanctions don't work on people who have no use for UN-distributed powdered goats' milk)

but since we also care about browns, let's also factor this, if you will allow: i believe this is germaine to the topic:

in iraq, we targeted bad guys, w/ admitted collateral damage, but pales in comparison (recalling that we're comparing scale) to attacks carried out by terrorists using suicide truck bombs at the markets, bombing mosques of the "wrong kind of muslims", busloads of iraqi cop-trainees, and labor-queues
How many did Al Qaeda count among it's members at the time of those three attacks? How many now?so, abdul hung up his felefal stand to join the fight? and that's somehow that's our fault & not that of the imam during friday prayers calling for jihad? my, you do have a measurable amount of self-loathing. by that logic, we shouldn't kill them: we created them!! we're the bloody problem!! if we would go away, they would just be peace loving rug-traders.
I'm not absolving anyone. We should wipe those ****ers off the face of the earth. But do you really insist that the best way to achieve that was to invade a country where they weren't?you seem to think we should go after people, and not an ideology being lived out through people. i think this may be the fundamental disagreement we have. and i'm cool with it.

[N8]

And you need to tweak your auto-reply. You tried to say something substantive not too long ago. You should look into that.



..and you couldn't handle it, remember?


:p

[Secret Squirrel]

al-Q exacted these attacks on the embassies (killing mostly brown indigenous types; "lesser" people). a few dozen between khobar towers & the uss cole was 17 or so. but let's also look at the situations of these attacks: they were ambushes, plain & simple, outside of the theater of war. is this how you'd rather have it? a few dozen expected yet "tolerable" deaths? (OLGF, before you jump on my hump about false dichotomy, recall you have no recourse to counter terrorist groups but to hunt them down; sanctions don't work on people who have no use for UN-distributed powdered goats' milk)

but since we also care about browns, let's also factor this, if you will allow: i believe this is germaine to the topic:

in iraq, we targeted bad guys, w/ admitted collateral damage, but pales in comparison (recalling that we're comparing scale) to attacks carried out by terrorists using suicide truck bombs at the markets, bombing mosques of the "wrong kind of muslims", busloads of iraqi cop-trainees, and labor-queues
so, abdul hung up his felefal stand to join the fight? and that's somehow that's our fault & not that of the imam during friday prayers calling for jihad? my, you do have a measurable amount of self-loathing. by that logic, we shouldn't kill them: we created them!! we're the bloody problem!! if we would go away, they would just be peace loving rug-traders.
you seem to think we should go after people, and not an ideology being lived out through people. i think this may be the fundamental disagreement we have. and i'm cool with it.

You're kidding, right? Right?!?!

Of course we created them. We ARE the problem.
I'll even define 'we' for you so there's no mistake:
we = the elected (and people appointed by said electees) officials that made the decision to actually do these deeds.

This has become one giant clusterf*ck with no end in sight. It started out with the best intentions; we're going to get the people that fell the towers. Great. Go get 'em, tiger.

Then it turned into knowingly lying to the American public about, what lately appears to be, everything. You seem to have bought it hook, line, and sinker. No WMD's like W said?? No problem, we have to eradicate those bastards that fell the towers....What? They had no ties....hmmm....Well, on to Iran, cause those f*ckers are the REAL problem...

I can't wait.

I have lost all respect, trust, etc. in the office of the president and his advisors. If you have an agenda, fine. Lying about what is going on is unacceptable. Especially when you're causing the rest of the world to look at what you're doing with a look of absolute comtempt.

Why are the Imam's calling for jihad? Before, it would've been because the U.S. is powerful and we don't like that and blah blah blah....Now it's because we invaded and killed family members and they can put a face on "evil". And once you put a face on your enemy with 72 virgins waiting for you....boy, you better kiss you M4 Carbine-armed ass goodnight.


If this had been thought through in the first place, and, btw, people hadn't been so F*CKING complacent about what was going on, we wouldn't be in this mess. To eradicate terror we don't need to invade entire countries and throw the balance of power in the whole region into the wood chipper of 'justice'. Yeah, we can get the terrorists. But with how things have been done....doesn't look like it's working...no matter how hard bushie blows his own dick.

[$tinkle]

No, they had ties with a sovereign nation called Pakistan which installed the Taliban who in turn helped facilitate the training camps. Note, however, that Iraq was NOT part of the equation.in simple terms - but not too simple to miss the point - explain how our elected officials acted fallibly in choosing to invade. that is, starting from 1998, when it became the policy of the united states under clinton (http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/libera.htm) to liberate iraq, how was our leadership wrong [either administration - you pick]?
Yet Afghanistan is still in shamble, Osama is still at large, and the Taliban is still around and causing trouble.working on it...
...we should have done the job right plz elaborate
If anyone didn't notice what happened in Afghanistan it was the administration.i believe it was a "hey, that wasn't half-bad! let's go to the other side of this axis-of-evil country & try it"
Hell yeah people noticed. The radical muslims saw a power vaccuum and a chance to spread their influence to a place where they were largely shut out, so shut out saddam was building the second larget mosque in the world (called the mother of all mosques); i guess he chose to dedicate it toward the wrong flavor of islam? that's my guess.
as well as a place to have live training camps against American soldiers who are at a distinct disadvantage in many instances.no doubt, obl, et. al., would have been fools to pass up this opportunity to send jihadis for both training & propaganda.

Of course, the rise of radical Islam in all those places you cite should be disturbing, because how long do you think it will be before those new hot spots do become our problem. Add the rise of radical Islam in Iraq and them killing American soldiers, turning Iraq into a civil war and a blood bath, and you've got a pretty messed up situation. how long until it does spill over?agreed, and the UN is not the answer. i hope reform within radical islam is, but i'm not too pollyanna on that.

[ohio]

recall you have no recourse to counter terrorist groups but to hunt them down; sanctions don't work on people who have no use for UN-distributed powdered goats' milk
agreed. we should hunt them down. covertly. so that no one notices but their own dwindling membership.

in iraq, we targeted bad guys, w/ admitted collateral damage, but pales in comparison (recalling that we're comparing scale) to attacks carried out by terrorists using suicide truck bombs at the markets, bombing mosques of the "wrong kind of muslims", busloads of iraqi cop-trainees, and labor-queues
so, abdul hung up his felefal stand to join the fight? and that's somehow that's our fault
Abdul wouldn't have hung up his falafel stand if we hadn't started the war, so yes that's our fault. Now we have no choice but to put hm down, but if we didn't breed him in the first place...

Terrorists wouldn't be bombing mosques in Iraq if we hadn't started a war, so yes that's our fault. We didn't bomb the mosques, but we created the situation that put all of those civilians in jeopardy. They're committing the homicide, but we committed the gross negligence.

you seem to think we should go after people, and not an ideology being lived out through people. i think this may be the fundamental disagreement we have. and i'm cool with it.

I think we should attack the ideology AND the people committing the crimes and recruiting modertes to their extremes. Go after the people covertly, without creating martyrs or a "cause." Go after the ideology through diplomacy, education, aid, infrastructure, a real economy. By providing a clear enemy and a conspicuous theatre for action we have done nothing but STRENGTHEN the ideology.

Did removing the 10 commandments from judicial buildings crush the extreme christian right, or does it mobilize them to action and recruit moderates who now feel threatened to their cause?

[$tinkle]

agreed. we should hunt them down. covertly. so that no one notices but their own dwindling membership.so much for deterrence, eh? one day mahmoud fails to show up for his shift in the cave & they'll just assume...? just trolling. carry on.
Abdul wouldn't have hung up his falafel stand if we hadn't started the war, so yes that's our fault. Now we have no choice but to put hm down, but if we didn't breed him in the first place...and what of the breeders? are we hoping for a specially-decorated thin pike on the WH lawn?

I think we should attack the ideology AND the people committing the crimes and recruiting modertes to their extremes. Go after the people covertly, without creating martyrs or a "cause." Go after the ideology through diplomacy, education, aid, infrastructure, a real economy. so make it more like saudi arabia? i'm only 1/2 trolling.

[rockwool]

Now what specifically kills me about the profiteering in this case, is that it may well crush our economy and our security in the long run, and it results from a war entirely created, I would even say manufactured, by the US.

All this time the US has been in Iraq it has been taking oil from them without paying for it. No one knows how many barrels per day... With the current administratioin I won't be surprised if the profit saved from not having to pay for that crude oil, goes only to private companies and nothing to the US's purse.

[ohio]

so much for deterrence, eh? one day mahmoud fails to show up for his shift in the cave & they'll just assume...? just trolling. carry on.
and what of the breeders? are we hoping for a specially-decorated thin pike on the WH lawn?
so make it more like saudi arabia? i'm only 1/2 trolling.
kill the breeders. covertly. yes, let them assume. but don't let the guys in a different cave 3000 miles away know they've both got something in common.

saudi arabia is not the model I'm thinking of. it's not a real, sustainable, economy and the work we have done there was never designed to help create an educated middle class. japan, south korea, hell, even peru. Afghanistan was a golden opportunity to show that this could be achieved in the middle east. Squandered...

[kidwoo]

I guess divide and conquer alwas did have a better ring to it than unite and facilitate.

[Secret Squirrel]

I guess divide and conquer alwas did have a better ring to it than unite and facilitate.

What about untie & flatulate?

[WheelieMan]

All this time the US has been in Iraq it has been taking oil from them without paying for it. No one knows how many barrels per day... With the current administratioin I won't be surprised if the profit saved from not having to pay for that crude oil, goes only to private companies and nothing to the US's purse.

And your proof for that is???

[Secret Squirrel]

And your proof for that is???

Swede's don't lie....at least that's what the bikini model told me last night.....hmmmm....come to think of it...I don't think she faked like she said she did..... :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Changleen]

and what of the breeders? are we hoping for a specially-decorated thin pike on the WH lawn?What of them? If they were not so trumpetted by the western media and elevated to the status they currently have, they wouldn't have the 'power' they currently (don't actually) have. This whole thing is a self fulfilling joke/prophecy (same deal.)

[Old Man G Funk]

al-Q exacted these attacks on the embassies (killing mostly brown indigenous types; "lesser" people). a few dozen between khobar towers & the uss cole was 17 or so. but let's also look at the situations of these attacks: they were ambushes, plain & simple, outside of the theater of war. is this how you'd rather have it? a few dozen expected yet "tolerable" deaths? (OLGF, before you jump on my hump about false dichotomy, recall you have no recourse to counter terrorist groups but to hunt them down; sanctions don't work on people who have no use for UN-distributed powdered goats' milk)
OLGF? Is that supposed to be some subtle way of trying to make fun of me?

Those ambushes didn't quite accomplish the damage that they are doing now for one. They are still ambushing us, or do you see an army of terrorists lining up against our troops in Iraq for two. And third, you say that either we hunt them down or use sanctions, but there are many different ways that we could go about this. Also, hunting them down is not mutually exclusive with other options.
but since we also care about browns, let's also factor this, if you will allow: i believe this is germaine to the topic:

in iraq, we targeted bad guys, w/ admitted collateral damage, but pales in comparison (recalling that we're comparing scale) to attacks carried out by terrorists using suicide truck bombs at the markets, bombing mosques of the "wrong kind of muslims", busloads of iraqi cop-trainees, and labor-queues
so, abdul hung up his felefal stand to join the fight? and that's somehow that's our fault & not that of the imam during friday prayers calling for jihad? my, you do have a measurable amount of self-loathing. by that logic, we shouldn't kill them: we created them!! we're the bloody problem!! if we would go away, they would just be peace loving rug-traders.
Your racism aside, there's much more to it and I'll grant you that it isn't solely our fault, nor is it solely the fault of the current administration. This is something that's been brewing for many, many years, spanning many administrations. It is most certainly our fault that we are in Iraq. No one forced us to go in there.
you seem to think we should go after people, and not an ideology being lived out through people. i think this may be the fundamental disagreement we have. and i'm cool with it.
Nice straw man. No one is saying that we should only go after people and not the ideology that spawns terrorism. Going into Iraq, however, was not the way to do that. Instead of fighting the ideology, we simply helped it.

[Old Man G Funk]

..and you couldn't handle it, remember?


:p
Oh yeah, all I did was point out that it was one long logical error. My bad.:clue:

[Old Man G Funk]

in simple terms - but not too simple to miss the point - explain how our elected officials acted fallibly in choosing to invade. that is, starting from 1998, when it became the policy of the united states under clinton (http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/libera.htm) to liberate iraq, how was our leadership wrong [either administration - you pick]?
Gee, I don't know, maybe lying to the American people to commit troops to the ground in an effort that didn't need to be made that took our attention away from the other country we had just invaded? Yes, Clinton was seeking regime change, but I don't recall him putting our army in Iraq, or opportunistically using the USS Cole bombing (or any other terrorist act) as an excuse to go into Iraq.
working on it...
With much less of a force than what we have committed to Iraq.
plz elaborate
Well, for starters we could have gone in there with the force that we are using in Iraq. We could have stayed until the job was done, instead of pulling out in favor of invading another country that had nothing to do with what was going on. Maybe we could have put more pressure on Musharaf so that he would stop playing both sides. Should I go on?
i believe it was a "hey, that wasn't half-bad! let's go to the other side of this axis-of-evil country & try it"
Do you really believe that?
so shut out saddam was building the second larget mosque in the world (called the mother of all mosques); i guess he chose to dedicate it toward the wrong flavor of islam? that's my guess.
no doubt, obl, et. al., would have been fools to pass up this opportunity to send jihadis for both training & propaganda.
agreed, and the UN is not the answer. i hope reform within radical islam is, but i'm not too pollyanna on that.
Saddam was a megalomaniac. He craved power. Letting the radical fundamentalists in would have siphoned off some of his power and he wasn't about to do that. So he was going to build a huge mosque, so what? That doesn't mean that he was in league with the terrorists. You'll have to do much better than that, especially since Bush is now admitting that there were no ties between Saddam and 9/11 and the link they tried to establish between Saddam and Al Qaeda has been largely discredited.

The UN may not be the answer (I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the UN?) and it would be pollyanna-ish to think they will reform themselves. As Ohio said, we could be pushing for more reforms in a more peaceful way, however, and helping to bring about the changes that we seek, instead of shooting first and asking questions later.

[ALEXIS_DH]

Yeah, miltary time doesnt count. Despite the fact that some people live off base, shop on the local economy, pay local taxes, send their kids to local schools, the kids learn to speak the local language fluently, play sports on the local teams, have babies in the local hospitals, make lifelong friends with local residents, discuss politics in both the local area and the world and generally try to assimilate into the area. No, it doesnt count.
:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :banghead: :banghead:

US military bases abroad are american reservations.
saying living in them count as "living abroad" is like saying going to a different sandals every year makes you cosmopolitan.

[$tinkle]

OLGF? Is that supposed to be some subtle way of trying to make fun of me?no, it was a typo
Those ambushes didn't quite accomplish the damage that they are doing now for one. They are still ambushing us, or do you see an army of terrorists lining up against our troops in Iraq for two. again, this is in the theater of war, where this kind of action is expected

Your racism aside, now i know you got nuthin'; seriously, once you start that just because i say we care about browns (i still believe we both do, and it's shorter than saying "residents living under oppressive &/or unstable governments of all countries ending in -stan, and of the middle east who are not jewish, because it goes without saying how deeply we care about the jews"), i'm not going to seriously consider much else of what you have to say, which is regrettable if you have anything of substance to offer. see ohio's posts for good examples. he probably thinks i'm a tool, but still offers reasonable discussion void of baseless ad-hominem snipes.

after all, if i'm racist, there's really no point responding to my posts, now is there?

[Old Man G Funk]

no, it was a typo
I thought maybe you were trying to substitute lady for man or something, as if it were some sort of clever joke or something. I'm glad, because it wouldn't have been that clever.
again, this is in the theater of war, where this kind of action is expected
Glad you aren't whining about the guerilla tactics at least.
now i know you got nuthin'; seriously, once you start that just because i say we care about browns (i still believe we both do, and it's shorter than saying "residents living under oppressive &/or unstable governments of all countries ending in -stan, and of the middle east who are not jewish, because it goes without saying how deeply we care about the jews"),
It was in response to referring to all Arabs as rug-traders and talking about Abdul and his "felefal" stand. I only mentioned it becaus