Turner 29er; The Sultan

[N8]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/mtbnate/Asylum%2029/1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/mtbnate/Asylum%2029/3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/mtbnate/Asylum%2029/2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/mtbnate/Asylum%2029/4.jpg

[moff_quigley]

Yeah but nobody's gonna buy it cause Dave doesn't worship at the altar of the all mighty big wheel...

Looks good. Looks like a Turner and probably rides like one too.

[N8]

I for one, an not a fan of that rear shock placement... it reminds me too much of my wife's Trek Fuel which rode like total crap.

[N8]

Specs:


71 HT

73 ST

13.2 BB

18.2 CS


fork it
___________________________
It will handle a DUC in whatever chop it takes to get to fit a 29" wheel, or a WhiteBros 125 or whatever you will actually ride uphill on. It is the same top and down tube that the Spot has and those have been totally solid for years.

We had a little run of saddles made for the show bikes.

STA is 73 and HTA is 71 with the 100 fork

The shock is a 1.5 with a 2.6:1 rate.

-DT

[ncj01]

tall bb

[rob pennell]

Specs:


71 HT

73 ST

13.2 BB

18.2 CS

Wow, I now know why he doesnt like 29ers.

[Smelly]

I for one, an not a fan of that rear shock placement... it reminds me too much of my wife's Trek Fuel which rode like total crap.

:rant:
Does your hardtail ride like crap because it looks the same as a crappy-riding hardtail?

Are Ti and steel frames identical? they both use small diameter tubes, right?

Is a Honda Acorrd the same as a Ford Taurus because they look similar?

Is vodka the same thing as gin? they're both clear, after all.

How hard is it for people to understand that just because two full suspension bikes look similar, they're vastly different? Why can't some people understand this, even though they apply the same logic to other things?

I'm with moff on this- the bike looks exactly as I expected it to. Simple, understated, and just plain works. One of my favorite things about my Turner is that it doesn't draw attention. I think my 6pack needs a buddy!

[N8]

:rant:
Does your hardtail ride like crap because it looks the same as a crappy-riding hardtail?

Are Ti and steel frames identical? they both use small diameter tubes, right?

Is a Honda Acorrd the same as a Ford Taurus because they look similar?

Is vodka the same thing as gin? they're both clear, after all.

How hard is it for people to understand that just because two full suspension bikes look similar, they're vastly different? Why can't some people understand this, even though they apply the same logic to other things?

I'm with moff on this- the bike looks exactly as I expected it to. Simple, understated, and just plain works. One of my favorite things about my Turner is that it doesn't draw attention. I think my 6pack needs a buddy!


Easy there Homer....

I didn't say it rode like crap nor anything else.. I only said it reminded me of the Fuel which did ride like crap. But still,i find it very very hard to beat the 4 bar linkage...

[MMcG]

Is that bb height before sag do you think?

Looks good to my eyes. Still too bad no more horst links on Turners - it just seemed like they went hand in hand you know. Bet it rides very nice and will be very well built.

[jncarpenter]

But still,i find it very very hard to beat the 4 bar linkage...

...well, here we go again! I hate to get another debate started, but for the love of all that is HOLY!! The Turner TNT IS a 4 bar, just like the Horst link version was! I'm not sure why so many people confuse this issue...perhaps all the FSR marketing. Yes, the Horst link does offer some nice benefits when the application is done correctly, however recent incarnations of the HL really do not vary a gnat's gnard from DT's current design with regard to axle path. Braking characteristics can be argued on longer travel bikes....but again, it's all relative. I actually prefer a bit of the more stabilizing squat as opposed to a more neutral, forward-lurching HL feel. I have spent years on the Turner HL design & was one of the early prototype testers for the newer TNT (seatstay pivot) design & I concur with what MOST have realized about the change....the TNT is flat preferred over the HL Turner. After spending alot of time on the new design, I sold my HL bikes & bought the new design. If you haven't done back to back tests on the same bike (swapping stays only) you really have no idea what you're implying (or at least cannot substantiate it).

Anyhoo....not to bog down this thread with banter, but sometimes I need to vent on this issue as it gets thrown around so often on bike boards by people who have no real world experience & as such, mostly comparing one brands design over & against that of another with completely different builds...etc.

I agree, this looks like a very sweet ride from Turner & confirmed today that one of the 19" protos from demo day will eventually make it to my basement :brows:

[N8]

Well there ya go then.

:)

[MMcG]

Basement? You mean the trails right? ;)

Surely it isn't just gonna reside in the basement and collect dust right?

[Bicyclist]

Never trust a bald barber, eh? Sure sounds like a bike with big support from the company itself. :rolleyes:

[Bicyclist]

No dumbass, I'm saying it's ridiculous Turner would put out a 29er when DT talks crap about them. I guess experience may teach lessons but some people don't know how to read them...

[jncarpenter]

Basement? You mean the trails right? ;)

Surely it isn't just gonna reside in the basement and collect dust right?

...hah! No, the basement is where they recover from the ride. I am sure this new Turner will see the lion share of my ride time for a bit.:biggrin:

[Bicyclist]

...perhaps it was your comment "sounds like a bike with big support from the company itself."...I apparently mistook your comment for being directed at the positive feedback in this thread (in spite of the bald barber euphemism). Regardless, you obviously don't know Dave...AT ALL.

Does your mom know you're up this late on a school night?:biggrin:

Apparently you can't comprehend sarcasm. When I said the bike had "big support from the company itself," I was refering to DT talking smack about how 29ers are pointless. Then he turns around and makes one.

Apparently you're insecure with your age. But personally I think it's way lamer for you to be sitting on the internet seeing you're probably middle aged. Grow up and pick on someone your own size.

[zmtber]

think i posted it before, he are other pics

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/7863/phat26mj.jpg
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/5986/snowzilla47gm.jpg

[jncarpenter]

Apparently you can't comprehend sarcasm. When I said the bike had "big support from the company itself," I was refering to DT talking smack about how 29ers are pointless. Then he turns around and makes one.

Apparently you're insecure with your age. But personally I think it's way lamer for you to be sitting on the internet seeing you're probably middle aged. Grow up and pick on someone your own size.

I can comprehend sarcasm just fine, thanks. It is more your derisive comments & name-calling that I find childish. Dave Turner at one point felt the Horst link was the best way to design a suspension bicycle as well...does it make him a "bald barber" for changing designs ? He makes a World Cup level DH bike & doesn't race DH...a top level FR bike & doesn't come close to riding the stuff the bike is designed for. I am confused, the man finally gives his customers what they ask for & suddenly he's villainized by the zealot band-wagon...silly if you ask me.


FYI: I am working right now, that would be why I am on the "internet", tho I be a middle-aged man.

EDIT: Deleted posts to clean up the thread

[jncarpenter]

think i posted it before, he are other pics

...actually, that is not the Sultan. It is a 5 Spot triangle & rockers w/ a 6 Pack rear :)

[Bicyclist]

I can comprehend sarcasm just fine, thanks. It is more your derisive comments & name-calling that I find childish. Dave Turner at one point felt the Horst link was the best way to design a suspension bicycle as well...does it make him a "bald barber" for changing designs ? He makes a World Cup level DH bike & doesn't race DH...a top level FR bike & doesn't come close to riding the stuff the bike is designed for. I am confused, the man finally gives his customers what they ask for & suddenly he's villainized by the zealot band-wagon...silly if you ask me.


FYI: I am working right now, that would be why I am on the "internet", tho I be a middle-aged man.

EDIT: Deleted posts to clean up the thread

I think it's a bit different for DT to change suspension designs, than to talk a bunch of crap about something and then build it.

That'd be like if he said, oh, TNT won't ever work well and DH bikes suck too and then turned around and made TNT bikes and DH bikes. Apples and oranges buddy.

But whatever.

[jncarpenter]

I think it's a bit different for DT to change suspension designs, than to talk a bunch of crap about something and then build it.

That'd be like if he said, oh, TNT won't ever work well and DH bikes suck too and then turned around and made TNT bikes and DH bikes. Apples and oranges buddy.

But whatever.

...here's where you are "making stuff up". DT never said 29ers "won't ever work well" nor did he say "they suck". He simply pointed out the inherent weaknesses in the design/ ride of the wheels & stated his opinion* (*just like you have several times in this thread) that they will never "take over" in MTB. I have read his quotes in all the mag articles, so I know what I am referencing...do you? I have also had many long conversations regarding 29ers in general as well as this current project. Dave is psyched about the Sultan...period. Hate all you want, but at least get your facts straight....don't just regurgitate what you read on the MTBR boards.

[MMcG]

JN - thanks for clarifying up what DT's comments were. Good on ya for keeping it civilized too. Thanks!

[N8]

Interesting... what is it about this peticular 29er that gets everyone all stirred up when it's discussed?

[jbogner]

I think it's AWESOME that we can repeat this same argument from MTBR over here. That way, we can just cut-and-paste our comments without having to put in the work of creating new arguments!

Bottom line- Turner won't sign his name to a bike that doesn't ride great. So even if he's not a personal fan of big wheels, it's still going to be a good bike.

Other bottom line- if you're the soulful type who wants to buy a bike from a maker who's as stoked on 29ers as you are (and you're not focused solely on the performance of the bike), then there are certainly better options out there.

Both opinions are valid. Choice is good. I'd much rather have the option of a Turner full suspension 29er than another hardtail with EBB from a third-tier consumer brand...

[N8]

I think it's AWESOME that we can repeat this same argument from MTBR over here. That way, we can just cut-and-paste our comments without having to put in the work of creating new arguments!

Bottom line- Turner won't sign his name to a bike that doesn't ride great. So even if he's not a personal fan of big wheels, it's still going to be a good bike.

Other bottom line- if you're the soulful type who wants to buy a bike from a maker who's as stoked on 29ers as you are (and you're not focused solely on the performance of the bike), then there are certainly better options out there.

Both opinions are valid. Choice is good. I'd much rather have the option of a Turner full suspension 29er than another hardtail with EBB from a third-tier consumer brand...

Amen brotha!!!

Like the commercial says; Choice is good!

:D

[narlus]

I for one, an not a fan of that rear shock placement... it reminds me too much of my wife's Trek Fuel which rode like total crap.

you really have no concept of basic bike design, do you?

:bonk:

'i hate that hardtail; it kinda looks like that other i had which i didn't like'

edit - smelly beat me to it.

[N8]

you really have no concept of basic bike design, do you?

:bonk:

'i hate that hardtail; it kinda looks like that other i had which i didn't like'



:yawn:

[mtbtom]

So what makes Turner's design different than say a rocky mountain element or one of the kona XC fullys?

[jbogner]

So what makes Turner's design different than say a rocky mountain element or one of the kona XC fullys?

I know. That Kona 29er full suspension bike is almost identical to Turner's 29er... uh, wait...

[N8]

I know. That Kona 29er full suspension bike is almost identical to Turner's 29er... uh, wait...


Here's a Lenz 29er.. similar but different:

http://dirtdawgs.org/cpg/albums/userpics/10206/Lev2.JPG

[jbogner]

Here's a Lenz 29er.. similar but different:

I'll see your Lenz, and raise you a Ventana...

http://www.ventanausa.com/gallery/1rick_elcapitan.jpg

That many solid and reputable builders have chosen this suspension design says good things about it, no? Aren't we past the days when the value of a bike was determined by how novel its suspension design was? It's Darwinism at work. The strong designs survive...

[narlus]

:yawn:

N8, you do realize that a suspension design without the horst link can still be classified as a 4 bar, don't you?

[MMcG]

I'd take any of those above - Turner, Lenz, Ventana

I'd also love to try a Niner RIP Nine - Balfa 2Step comes to mind when I see that frame!

Hell a Van Dessel Jersey Devil or a Astrix Monk would be sweet too.

I think what would really be great is if another company other than Fisher would produce a FS 29er for the masses. Say a Jamis XLT 29er or a Kona Dawg 29er or something along those lines.

oh yeah and they should offer a frame only option and try to get it in the sub $1,000 price range too!

[mtbtom]

That many solid and reputable builders have chosen this suspension design says good things about it, no? Aren't we past the days when the value of a bike was determined by how novel its suspension design was? It's Darwinism at work. The strong designs survive...

No, it's the lawyers at work.

[mtbtom]

N8, you do realize that a suspension design without the horst link can still be classified as a 4 bar, don't you?

How is that ? Because as I understand it without the horst link what you have is a single pivot bike with a linkage driving the shock.

For the record I have no particular affinity for any suspension design - just looking to find out what's behind all the marketing hooey and buzz words like "TNT" cos that Turner looks like IDENTICAL (uh, besides the wheel size, duh) to a lot of other bikes out there.

[jbogner]

The Lenz offends my aesthetic sensibilities. I couldn't pay that kind of money for a frame with that ugly head tube/down tube junction. I know how fickle that is, and I won't apologize. It's my money. If I'm going to spend $1900 on a frame, I want it to look great AND ride great.

The Ventana has grown on me. I used to hate it, but I'm warming up to it now.

Niner. I'm wait-and-see on that one. Not buying any first-generation suspension bike from a relatively new brand, although it does look good. I hope it takes off, and the reports are good.

I want to like the Jersey Devil, but that huge and unattractive rocker gets in the way. They're local (NJ), and I'd love to support a local company, but... I just can't ride that bike.

Spider 29er is too racy- I'm 220 and ride hard, so I need a tougher bike.

Astrix Monk is pretty sweet- simple design, great price. I've been thinking about that one.

But the Turner is the best-looking 29er trailbike yet, and I know it'll deliver a swell ride. It's almost enough to convince me.

However, I think I'll hold out a little while longer for that rumored Intense 5.5 29er. I love my other Intense, and Jeff Steber is just crazy about 29ers now (his quotes in those same mags make an interesting counterpoint to DT's! ;) ), so it can't be too long before we see big wheels with more travel from them...

[MMcG]

jbogner - FYI - Astrix is working on a couple of other longer travel FS 29er designs - so perhaps they could be the ticket for you.

[narlus]

How is that ? Because as I understand it without the horst link what you have is a single pivot bike with a linkage driving the shock.

do any number of searches on this, and if you want specify author as dw (dave weagle) or thaflyinfatman (aussie guy on here).

the chainstay pivot allows for de-coupling of braking forces on the suspension. at least that's how i've understood it.

Specialized Bicycles developed one of the most popular and widely used four bar designs called the FSR/Horst Link design. This design has been licensed by many other companies such as Intense and Norco, and has been proven to be a great all around full suspension design for cross-country race bikes to downhill bikes. This design is a fully active, and generally plush feeling design that is minimally affected by pedaling forces, so it has minimal bob or pedal feedback. The FSR/Horst Link design uses a parallelogram type linkage with four pivots so the rear wheel move in a near verticle path as the suspension compresses. Other companies use a four bar linkage design that differ from the FSR/Horst Link by positioning the chain stay pivot in a position that doesn’t interfere with Specialized’s patent. These include designs from Ellsworth, Titus, and Kona.

[Smelly]

I'd take any of those above - Turner, Lenz, Ventana

I'd also love to try a Niner RIP Nine - Balfa 2Step comes to mind when I see that frame!

Hell a Van Dessel Jersey Devil or a Astrix Monk would be sweet too.

I think what would really be great is if another company other than Fisher would produce a FS 29er for the masses. Say a Jamis XLT 29er or a Kona Dawg 29er or something along those lines.

oh yeah and they should offer a frame only option and try to get it in the sub $1,000 price range too!


:stupid: especially on the cheap frame. That's definitely the next step.

Whether you like Turner or not, 29ers or not, it's awesome to see new options popping out in the mountain bike world. It means new growth and evolution for the industry.

[Guitar Ted]

Almost all of these FS 29"ers have 18" or longer chainstays to accomodate the travel/ design. I see on other threads where critics of 29"ers say that the chainstays are too long.....on hardtail 29"ers! Does the chainstay length of these FS 29"ers bother any body? I see this Turner has 18" plus long chainstays. Is this a non-issue? What say you FS guys?

[MMcG]

I dunno - I'm used to FS bikes with 16.9 - to maybe 17.5" chainstays. bcd - was running really short chainstays on his modified 29er DH bike.

To be honest, 18.2 - 18.3 seems kind of long for the type of trails here in the east. But perhaps for midwest and western trails where things are a little more wide-open if you will - that length works.

I guess the only way to tell is to ride some - unfortunately that's difficult unless you have access to a bike shop like the Path in CA or some other mega cool bike shop.

That type of shop just doesn't exist in this region - but maybe rightly so since we have a season called winter to deal with here in New England.

[El Caballo]

I ride a hardtail with 18.5" chainstays. The downside is that it's a little bit harder to lift the front. (Though if I had a suspension fork which I could bounce, I wouldn't care...IMO this is really only an issue on rigids.) The upside is that I don't loop out backwards on steep climbs and it feels a lot smoother over bumps.

From an engineering perspective, chainstays should grow along with TT for larger frame sizes -- but for some reason they don't. I can see shorter riders wanting to stick with 26" or ride a 69er, but I think most larger guys will be surprised how much better a bike rides with longer chainstays.*

(* The exception being bikes designed mainly for gravity racing, where climbing performance isn't an issue, and singlespeeds -- both of which are usually ridden standing up..)

[bcd]

I dunno - I'm used to FS bikes with 16.9 - to maybe 17.5" chainstays. bcd - was running really short chainstays on his modified 29er DH bike.

To be honest, 18.2 - 18.3 seems kind of long for the type of trails here in the east. But perhaps for midwest and western trails where things are a little more wide-open if you will - that length works.

I guess the only way to tell is to ride some - unfortunately that's difficult unless you have access to a bike shop like the Path in CA or some other mega cool bike shop.

That type of shop just doesn't exist in this region - but maybe rightly so since we have a season called winter to deal with here in New England.

mine are 16.25 but grow to 18.

i can do it on my bike b/c of my high pivot.

with a bb area pivot at 5'' your tire with 16.5 c/s

would be like 3'' onto your seat tube. not to mention front der overlap
that all you xc have to deal with. lol.

i would not buy a bike with 17+ c/s fs/ht/xc/dh/dj29/26/24 or not.

[MMcG]

mine are 16.25 but grow to 18.

i can do it on my bike b/c of my high pivot.

with a bb area pivot at 5'' your tire with 16.5 c/s

would be like 3'' onto your seat tube. not to mention front der overlap
that all you xc have to deal with. lol.

i would not buy a bike with 17+ c/s fs/ht/xc/dh/dj29/26/24 or not.

Alex,

Can you elaborate as to why you wouldn't by a bike with 17" plus chainstays? What is it about that length that would deter you?

I'd love to hear from a builder on this one.

Thanks.

Mark

[bcd]

Alex,

Can you elaborate as to why you wouldn't by a bike with 17" plus chainstays? What is it about that length that would deter you?

I'd love to hear from a builder on this one.

Thanks.

Mark

i like to turn my bikes. anything over 17 feels like a limo to me.

as for the builder point of view. like i said i think they have to use 17+

to clear a front der. i would use a wider bb and use -17'' cs if i were to build a xc 29er.

[jncarpenter]

Thoughts from IB '06:

Turner Sultan This bike is fast. Just fast. It accelerates smoothly in all conditions and the ability to coast through the rough stuff without losing any speed is really impressive. The overall handling reminded me strongly of the Niner RIP9. Some guys I talked to preferred the Niner (citing the higher, wider bars on that bike as nice), some the Sultan (including a RIP9 owner ). Probably comes down to personal preference. The Sultan just rails through corners and refused to break loose even when mashing the pedals up loose stuff despite the rather wimply looking Maxxis Ignitors. The handling is sweet, balanced, and very predictable. When DT set out to make a 29er that acts as a counterpart to the 5-Spot, he nailed it with the Sultan. The Reba is sort of lacking in travel, but does pretty well with the little it is endowed with. This was also one of our favorite bikes at the show. Those of you who have preordered one are in for a serious treat. This is the bike that could get me to sell my 5-Spot and migrate to weird wheels.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1606/turnsul1eg6.jpg

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8660/turnsul2qi4.jpg

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/584/turnsul3sc8.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2033/turnsul4rl3.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5217/turnsul5mk2.jpg

[mud'n'sweat]

Another review on the Sultan....

Interbike 2006 Report
Day 1 – Sept 25, 2006
Location – Bootleg Canyon, Nevada
Author – Thomas Tran aka ‘Rensho’ (mtbr 29er Specialist)




Turner Sultan: Med, reba, gears, ~100mm stem, narrow risers, Maxxis Ignitors. I had a tough time getting along with this bike. Can’t put my finger on it. It felt sluggish on the trail, and was not plush. The bars felt high. Just getting off the RIP9, this was a very different bike. The Sultan felt less active, but slower getting the power to the ground. The tires held this bike back some. Initially, they were too high pressure. Getting them back down to ~28-30psi helped them stick without pinching. The narrow bars also don’t allow for easy application of power as you try and get up some of the steep gullies. A wider flat bar would have helped keep the front end a little lower. I could not pin down what the bike does well. It is a Turner, so you know it will last and is very well supported. I kept replaying in my head Aqua’s review of the Sultan and how he wouldn’t trade it for his RFX/6pack. If I have time, I’ll ride this again tomorrow. I don’t feel I’ve unlocked what this bike is capable of. Some cockpit adjustments and tires would go a long way.

[N8]

Another review on the Sultan....



That's the review I read too...

[MMcG]

I suspect the bike is somewhere in the middle of those two reviews.

Tscheezy has been a Turner rider and devotee (nothing wrong with that) for years and years. and the other reviewer is a Niner hardtail rider so he may have some RIP 9 bias as well.

They sound like two very excellent FS options - probably comes down to rider preference in the end.

For me, if I could afford one of those options, I'd go Niner.

[Soupboy]

Go figure, one of the most unabashed Homers likes, well, another Turner. I'm sure it's a fine bike but it's also the best example of a boutique player dieing of crow ingestion overdose in recent memory.

Thoughts from IB '06:

[jncarpenter]

Go figure, one of the most unabashed Homers likes, well, another Turner. I'm sure it's a fine bike but it's also the best example of a boutique player dieing of crow ingestion overdose in recent memory.
....well, one of the reason's we choose our bikes as we do is for the ride (go figure). A nice characteristic about Turner bikes is that there is a certain "feel" to the ride that is passed on from one model to the next....to most, the geometry just feels very dialed & intuitive. I don't think it is a far stretch to assume that if you prefer one Turner, you will likely be inclined toward another of his models vs. the competitor.

On the crow bit, I know you got your feelings hurt because DT was reluctant to design the 29'er (HL) at the point you were ready to invest in one (I remember all your incessant posts on the Turner board to this regard)....however, he was tied up with multiple projects & obviously underestimated the longevity/ success of the 29" format. However, when I spoke with him last week on the subject (Sultan), I asked if he had ridden it & he replied "Yes...it's a fun freakin' bike". Ideally, isn't that what we all want from manufacturers? The willingness to take a risk & perhaps extend their opinion/ experience in the process?

MMcg...I think the Rip9 looks pretty sweet as well, personally I'm inclined to believe they both rip! From the pics I saw...it looked like perhaps Rensho should have ridden the small Sultan. My one concern with the Niner is the pivot/ bearing issues that are frequently a problem w/ the VPP style (multi link) designs. Given that Turner's bushings are effectively a proven, no hassle system...I am inclined to watch & see how the Rip9 holds up over time. Again, I agree w/ you that they are both going to be quality riding steeds.

FWIW...if I wasn't a "Homer", I would likely pick up the new Ventana offering (El Rey). Ventana (Sherwood) is another example of a builder who started out with little interest in 29" bikes & is now a convert :biggrin:

[RJM]

I too had a chance to ride the Sultan 29'r around interbike. I will say it rode very well. Most notable was how light it felt, compared to a flux(probably the closest 26'r to the sultan), the sultan felt lighter for some reason, and faster.

At this point, I am nowhere near owning a 29" bicycle, but the Sultan sure was a blast to spin around on.

Get a Sultan and experience Turner Legacy and Support...