Stem Cell Bill

[Transcend]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060718/D8IUKQ180.html

Wow, some president you guys have there. 63-37 majority, and he still plans on vetoing it. Love how he is the voice of the country. This just goes to show he is purely there for his own personal advancement and doesn't care what the country he is supposed to be governing wants.

[Tenchiro]

"The simple answer is he thinks murder's wrong," said White House spokesman Tony Snow. "The president is not going to get on the slippery slope of taking something living and making it dead for the purposes of scientific research."

However making live Iraqi's dead, is A-Ok.

[Westy]

The health care industry just couldn't post the highest bid.

[Secret Squirrel]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060718/D8IUKQ180.html

Wow, some president you guys have there. 63-37 majority, and he still plans on vetoing it. Love how he is the voice of the country. This just goes to show he is purely there for his own personal advancement and doesn't care what the country he is supposed to be governing wants.
Like Tony Snow said, "The president is not going to get on the slippery slope of taking something living and making it dead for the purposes of scientific research."

Maybe Georgie boy would be more willing to take away soldiers' families rights and just use the dead fighting mens' cells instead....and, of course, the Iraqis.....

[Transcend]

Their darkies of another god. He wants nothing to do with them, duh. They don't have pink little American pure bred babies.

Next plan is a fence around Iraq, and then he'll tell the Iraqis they have to fund it themselves.

[BurlyShirley]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060718/D8IUKQ180.html

Wow, some president you guys have there. 63-37 majority, and he still plans on vetoing it. Love how he is the voice of the country. This just goes to show he is purely there for his own personal advancement and doesn't care what the country he is supposed to be governing wants.
It's amazing how, from issue to issue, people are either in love with, or totally against the democratic process we have. Dont you think that's sort of the point of a veto?
But let me guess, if you agreed with him on the issue at hand, you'd be all for it.

[Westy]

We need to draw the line somehwere. All you liberals would be crying if they tried to keep Bush's brain alive inside a jar.

Fortunately the technology required to make really really small jars will take centuries to develop.

[Transcend]

It's amazing how, from issue to issue, people are either in love with, or totally against the democratic process we have. Dont you think that's sort of the point of a veto?
But let me guess, if you agreed with him on the issue at hand, you'd be all for it.

No the veto is there to keep the congress in check to make sure it's actions do not get out of whack with the public's. That is why 4 more votes yay makes Bush inelligible to Veto. Clearly with that slim of a majority, the public and congress have spoken.

This is purely abuse of power, nothing more, nothing less.

[BurlyShirley]

No the veto is there to keep the congress in check to make sure it's actions do not get out of whack with the public's. That is why 4 more votes yay makes Bush inelligible to Veto. Clearly with that slim of a majority, the public and congress have spoken.

This is purely abuse of power, nothing more, nothing less.

How is it abuse of power? People elected him just the same as they elected congress. He is acting within the rules provided. There several examples during US history that popular opinion was out and out wrong. Regardless of whether you agree w/ Bush or not, you have to see that such power is necessary.

[kidwoo]

We need to draw the line somehwere. All you liberals would be crying if they tried to keep Bush's brain alive inside a jar.
.


His what?

I thought it sat in pat robertson's crotch.

[Tenchiro]

Well this will be his first one in 6 years. So I won't call it an abuse of his power. But I don't agree with his choice.

[Secret Squirrel]

Had the pertinent questions been asked beforehand....and had some sort of cohesive answer that was at least a little truthful....we might have avoided this entire reality....

[Secret Squirrel]

Well this will be his first one in 6 years. So I won't call it an abuse of his power. But I don't agree with his choice.
Yeah, because the country finally woke up and now Georgie is crapping himself....

[Changleen]

It's a dumb thing to do and will put American biotech industry years behind Europe and Asia, which when you consider how technology is built on patents these days may be an irreversable set back. Once we start to get good at this stuff and patent all the basic techniques, you're screwed.

[Silver]

So why isn't IVF being outlawed?

My god, we're creating people that we are just throwing in the trash! Someone get Bush on this right away...

You can't fault George for his logic here...rock solid.

[Changleen]

"The simple answer is he thinks murder's wrong," Tony Snow said.

"The president is not going to get on the slippery slope of taking something living and making it dead for the purposes of scientific research." Do I even need to point out the many, many things that are wrong with this statement? What a tard.

[Silver]

Do I even need to point out the many, many things that are wrong with this statement? What a tard.

If you pull out the ole' thesaurus, you'll find this is one of the entries for simple:

Main Entry: simple
Part of Speech: adjective 4
Definition: feeble-minded
Synonyms: amateur, asinine, backward, blockheaded, brainless, credulous, dense, dim-witted, dopey, dull, dumb, fatuous, feeble, foolish, green*, gullible, half-witted, idiotic, ignorant, illiterate, imbecile, inane, inexperienced, inexpert, insensate, mindless, moronic, nitwitted, obtuse, retarded, senseless, shallow, silly, simple-minded, slow, soft, stupid, thick, uneducated, unintelligent, witless

Now, substitute and of the above words into Tony's statement, and it makes a lot of sense:

"The moronic answer is he thinks murder's wrong"

"The stupid answer is he thinks murder's wrong"

"The unintelligent answer is he thinks murder's wrong"

As you can see, Snow makes perfect sense in all three of the above statements...

[bjanga]

Can someone tell me why we cannot leave the morality issues to individual firms and ultimately the consumers?

This stuff is going to happen . . . just not in the US I guess.

[dante]

*sigh* God forbid Georgie could've used his veto to get spending under control, balance the budget, eliminate pork, instead of this carefully-planned bull$hit. The republicans know going into this that GWB is going to veto it, so they can feel free to support it and look good for their moderate constituants. Aside from Santorum, anybody want to bet how many republicans who are up for reelection in moderate states vote for this bill?

On a personal note, an Aunt of mine has Parkinson's, and her husband was partially paralized from a bicycle accident years ago. Both conditions that could benefit from advances in stem cell research. :( Sucks when something like this hits so close to home...

[Old Man G Funk]

*sigh* God forbid Georgie could've used his veto to get spending under control, balance the budget, eliminate pork, instead of this carefully-planned bull$hit.
C'mon, he only gets one veto, right? He's gotta make sure he uses it in the most effective way that benefits the country. Clearly balancing the budget, etc. are all way less important than making sure that unused embryos go where they belong; in the trash.

[Old Man G Funk]

It's amazing how, from issue to issue, people are either in love with, or totally against the democratic process we have. Dont you think that's sort of the point of a veto?
But let me guess, if you agreed with him on the issue at hand, you'd be all for it.
When Bush and Co. lie about/misuse/abuse the science, then they are subverting the democratic process. When Bush made his announcement back in 2001 about the stem cell lines that were available, he out and out lied to the American public. Either that, or he didn't bother to get the latest science on the issue which is also problematic.

[dhbuilder]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060718/D8IUKQ180.html

Wow, some president you guys have there. 63-37 majority, and he still plans on vetoing it. Love how he is the voice of the country. This just goes to show he is purely there for his own personal advancement and doesn't care what the country he is supposed to be governing wants.

this is one issue where i don't agree one bit with his views and actions.
let's hope the next president will take a more openminded stand on this.

mainly because i need someone to grow new cartilidge for my knee.

[Slugman]

The health care industry just couldn't post the highest bid.

Actually... they did.

Do you really think that there is a company out there that want to CURE their patients?

A treatment can last a lifetime, a cure means that you no longer have that patient. And they are making a sh*tload of money off of treating them as they die. Why would they want to cut into their profits like that?

It's a dumb thing to do and will put American biotech industry years behind Europe and Asia, which when you consider how technology is built on patents these days may be an irreversable set back. Once we start to get good at this stuff and patent all the basic techniques, you're screwed.

Based on their history for innovation... I'm not exactly worried.

But lets just say it is true... where is their research to date? Concept has been around for a while now, why hasn't someone else already started the research/filed for patents?

[dante]

Not only that, but stem cells are being billed as the 'cure-all' for everything and the sicence is still a looooong way from proving that to be the case....

I have no idea if it will cure anything or just suck up millions of dollars trying, but I'd rather have scientists/doctors decide whether its worth it or not instead of politicians...

I really hope Bush enjoys using the Veto and maybe he'll use it a lot more in the future on bad legislation...

don't worry, once the elections are over in November, I bet he'll use it a lot more. :devil:

[stevew]

If you pull out the ole' thesaurus, you'll find this is one of the entries for simple:

Main Entry: simple
Part of Speech: adjective 4
Definition: feeble-minded
Synonyms: amateur, asinine, backward, blockheaded, brainless, credulous, dense, dim-witted, dopey, dull, dumb, fatuous, feeble, foolish, green*, gullible, half-witted, idiotic, ignorant, illiterate, imbecile, inane, inexperienced, inexpert, insensate, mindless, moronic, nitwitted, obtuse, retarded, senseless, shallow, silly, simple-minded, slow, soft, stupid, thick, uneducated, unintelligent, witless

Now, substitute and of the above words into Tony's statement, and it makes a lot of sense:

"The moronic answer is he thinks murder's wrong"

"The stupid answer is he thinks murder's wrong"

"The unintelligent answer is he thinks murder's wrong"

As you can see, Snow makes perfect sense in all three of the above statements...

rarely would i agree with you on anything, but that was funny.

[Changleen]

Based on their history for innovation... I'm not exactly worried.Are you serious? :clue:But lets just say it is true... where is their research to date? Concept has been around for a while now, why hasn't someone else already started the research/filed for patents?You think they haven't? Maybe you should read up about this a little...

[Changleen]

Not only that, but stem cells are being billed as the 'cure-all' for everything and the sicence is still a looooong way from proving that to be the case....So let's just stop trying right now! :trophy_br

[macko]

Everytime I masturbate, I kill thousands of potential lives.

OOpp...uhhh... uunnnnghhh. There goes another few thousand.

[Silver]

So, is there anyone here who defends Bush on this? This may be a first...

[BurlyShirley]

So, is there anyone here who defends Bush on this? This may be a first...

I do. Pretty funny guy, I think. The only thing I like more than politicians helping the world is laughing at people who keep losing.

[Old Man G Funk]

Not only that, but stem cells are being billed as the 'cure-all' for everything and the sicence is still a looooong way from proving that to be the case....

I really hope Bush enjoys using the Veto and maybe he'll use it a lot more in the future on bad legislation...
Stem cells have a lot of potential, but we won't be able to achieve that potential if we never do any research. Duh.

[Old Man G Funk]

I do. Pretty funny guy, I think. The only thing I like more than politicians helping the world is laughing at people who keep losing.
You must laugh at yourself quite a bit.

[Old Man G Funk]

Based on their history for innovation... I'm not exactly worried.

But lets just say it is true... where is their research to date? Concept has been around for a while now, why hasn't someone else already started the research/filed for patents?
As Chang said, you should read up on this. Although it is true that the South Korean researcher who claimed to have miraculous breakthroughs did some fudging, there are many foreign labs working on using stem cells for research into diseases, ailments, etc.

[Old Man G Funk]

And, true to his word Bush vetoed the bill.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/19/AR2006071900524.html

[narlus]

Not only that, but stem cells are being billed as the 'cure-all' for everything and the sicence is still a looooong way from proving that to be the case....

yeah, why pursue further knowledge...such a waste of time...

I really hope Bush enjoys using the Veto and maybe he'll use it a lot more in the future on bad legislation...

so you think the proposed stem cell legislation was bad? interesting. is that a kneejerk/follow-the-W response, or do you have your own reasoning?

[spincrazy]

Ya know, I think N8 and Shirley just may be the same person.

If Bush held up a switchblade, held an infant on it, spun it around and then ate it there would still be blind support and disagreement from these two just to stir the pot and tow the line.

[BurlyShirley]

Ya know, I think N8 and Shirley just may be the same person.

If Bush held up a switchblade, held an infant on it, spun it around and then ate it there would still be blind support and disagreement from these two just to stir the pot and tow the line.
you obviously dont pay attention. Ive disagreed w/ the Bush admin. on many fronts and am NOT a republican. Im just socially conservative for the most part. But w/ economy, environmental, foreign policy, Ive not towed ANY party's line.

[kidwoo]

Not only that, but stem cells are being billed as the 'cure-all' for everything and the sicence is still a looooong way from proving that to be the case....

..


There's a girl who lives here who was paralyzed while training during an olympic devlelopment skiing camp a few years ago. She's been flying to europe for nerve stem cell treatment over the last two years. She's walking as of two months ago with some help from leg braces.

This is all I could find with a quick search. The local paper doesn't have the stories online. A friend of mine does a local access show in reno and did a feature on her.

http://www.beliefnet.com/milestones/commemoration.asp?milestoneTypeID=6&milestoneID=76557

At least her mom covers the bases between science and not science. :D

[kidwoo]

So why isn't IVF being outlawed?

My god, we're creating people that we are just throwing in the trash! Someone get Bush on this right away...

You can't fault George for his logic here...rock solid.

You know it's not about killing "babies(sic)" Otherwise the IVF refuse would be addressed.

It's about appeasing the retards while at the same time putting the research soley in the hands of merck et al with full profits being realized in the private sector.

[Chutney]

so he isn't any smarter now than he was then.

we're allowed to be angry/outraged though, right?

[Old Man G Funk]

Pffft.... :rolleyes:

It wasn't like Bush flip-flopped on this.. he said long ago it would be vetoed and it was. No one should be the least bit shocked.
Because not flip-flopping is more important than correcting mistakes.

[Secret Squirrel]

Sorry, I don't see this veto as a mistake.
Of course not.....cause nothing ever comes from people actually doing research....

Good thing Hope is an unknown quantity, otherwise people might actually just give up....

[BurlyShirley]

I cant beleive you guys want to do cruel experiments on little babies. :nonono:

[kidwoo]

I cant beleive you guys want to do cruel experiments on little babies. :nonono:


Yes. Live children with fully formed limbs and personalities and skin.

Only after they learn to say "mamma" though.

[Old Man G Funk]

Sorry, I don't see this veto as a mistake.
So, when Bush said that we had about 80 lines of stem cells for researchers to use, but it really turned out to be about 11 and most of those were inadequate and degenerating, he didn't make a mistake? Actually, you're probably right. He probably lied deliberately.

[Silver]

Yes. Live children with fully formed limbs and personalities and skin.

Only after they learn to say "mamma" though.

We can do it on Japanese children. Every good Christian knows that Japanese people don't have souls...

[Old Man G Funk]

For kristsakes!!! The veto didn't ban stem cell research...

There is already gov approved research being done and will continue to do so. This veto was for the expansion of federal funding...

:rolleyes:
The veto didn't ban stem cell research, but it only allows it on the stem cells that Bush allowed back in 2001, which I just said have proven to be inadequate to the task.

But, hey, if you'd rather throw embryos in the trash than use them to maybe save lives....

[Old Man G Funk]

You mean 22..?
Yes, 22, but some of those are basically useless. I thought I read somewhere that there were really only 11 that were still useful, but I can't back that up.

Either way, the 22 that we have is not enough.

[BurlyShirley]

Seriously though, what else could Bush have done? Im guessing he made a promise to his voters that he'd be against abortion. It wouldnt make much sense for him to support something like this. I mean, if he did, then you'd be all over him for being inconsistent. Its a no-win situation.

[bjanga]

There is already gov approved research being done and will continue to do so.
The lines are worthless though. Some is better than none I guess :trophy_br

[narlus]

Exactly.. except Bush wins by doing what he says he'll do, and not compromising his principles.

plus, god told him he was right. again.

[narlus]

did he pray on it?

be honest.

[Changleen]

you obviously dont pay attention. Ive disagreed w/ the Bush admin. on many fronts and am NOT a republican. Im just socially conservative for the most part. But w/ economy, environmental, foreign policy, Ive not towed ANY party's line.
Fortunately it's true. Shirley is being a jerk about this just because nearly everone else is 'against' it. It something to do with his childhood...

[Changleen]

Seriously though, what else could Bush have done? Im guessing he made a promise to his voters that he'd be against abortion. It wouldnt make much sense for him to support something like this. I mean, if he did, then you'd be all over him for being inconsistent. Its a no-win situation.If the voters had half a brain they'd know the two are completely different.

[Silver]

It wouldnt make much sense for him to support something like this. I mean, if he did, then you'd be all over him for being inconsistent. Its a no-win situation.

By not outlawing IVF in the first place, he's allowing a holocaust to happen so that Suzy Homemaker can have triplets.

That's a hell of a principle to uphold...

[kidwoo]

By not outlawing IVF in the first place, he's allowing a holocaust to happen so that Suzy Homemaker can have triplets.

...


Yup yup

It's NOT ABOUT EMBRYOS OR "ABORTION" SHIRLEY

All the federally funded stem cell research in the country wouldn't account for half the number of much more developed fetuseseseses thrown in the trash from botched IVFs.

BS: the irony of your inconsistency claim is absurd.

[BurlyShirley]

Yup yup

It's NOT ABOUT EMBRYOS OR "ABORTION" SHIRLEY

All the federally funded stem cell research in the country wouldn't account for half the number of much more developed fetuseseseses thrown in the trash from botched IVFs.

BS: the irony of your inconsistency claim is absurd.

Quit taking my explanations as "MY" argument. I understand fully (or as much as the next guy who has half paid attention) how useful stemcell research can/could be. Im all for it. Im just saying that it's not consistent with his "moral" platform and there's no way to win.
The IVF argument isnt necessarily a slam dunk becuase you have to examin who you're talking to, and what they're more concerned with is purpose than practicality. Or rather, that "creating" babies is different than experimenting on them.

[kidwoo]

Quit taking my explanations as "MY" argument. .

Fair enough but there's still a contradiction there that I have a problem with and you repeating it adds your voice to the argument.



I understand fully (or as much as the next guy who has half paid attention) how useful stemcell research can/could be. Im all for it. Im just saying that it's not consistent with his "moral" platform and there's no way to win.
The IVF argument isnt necessarily a slam dunk becuase you have to examin who you're talking to, and what they're more concerned with is purpose than practicality. Or rather, that "creating" babies is different than experimenting on them.

No one is experimenting on babies. Stem cell bundles are about as complex as some of the things I shoot out of my nose. And IVF trials have a failure rate too and are in a sense a trial or "experiment".

But you are right, audience is important. To me helping an existing human with a history, a personality and family is a far more noble cause than using the same resources to make a theoretical person.

[BurlyShirley]

Fair enough but there's still a contradiction there that I have a problem with and you repeating it adds your voice to the argument.




No one is experimenting on babies. Stem cell bundles are about as complex as some of the things I shoot out of my nose. And IVF trials have a failure rate too and are in a sense a trial or "experiment".

But you are right, audience is important. To me helping an existing human with a history, a personality and family is a far more noble cause than using the same resources to make a theoretical person.
Are you patronizing me or do you think I really think of them as babies?

[kidwoo]

Are you patronizing me or do you think I really think of them as babies?


I thought you were joking but you keep saying it in the midst of defending yourself and your explanations.

But even making fun of that in your word choice makes is sound like you for some reason understand the BS argument that gets made for the opposition. There's nothing to understand. It's ignorance. I'm well aware that you know that so cut it out.:D

[BurlyShirley]

I thought you were joking but you keep saying it in the midst of defending yourself and your explanations.

But even making fun of that in your word choice makes is sound like you for some reason understand the BS argument that gets made for the opposition. There's nothing to understand. It's ignorance. I'm well aware that you know that so cut it out.:D

I dont think it's simple ignorance tho. I mean, I think most people understand some embryos die in trying to fertilize lesbians, but that's an acceptable loss because you're trying to create life. I think they see it differently when you're experimenting on, or otherwise culturing them to save the lives of another person. I think they see it as organ stealing or something. And, in a sense, that's essentially what it is. Though I have no issue with that. The debate still comes back to what is or is not a person.

[kidwoo]

I dont think it's simple ignorance tho. I mean, I think most people understand some embryos die in trying to fertilize lesbians, .

That's downright quotable.

I don't think that even a newborn is a person (yet). I'd be hardpressed to rip one apart but that's still very very far from what actually occurs in stem cell harvesting. Correct me if I'm wrong but we're talking about a bundle of cells on the scale of hundreds no?

I'd like to see that bundle grow a moustache and drive a corvette.

Seriously though, without jesus how many people would be "morally" opposed to this when straight up embryos get sacrificed for IVF?

Jesus makes everything bad.

[jacemace]

If we want to use pure technocratic determinism in medicine et al...it will have to wait until this president leaves...or there is proof during his reign that an omnipotent clone army (has been/can be) made by China or someone else...belligerence and truculence before death and dishonour...even if it is not facilitated by what the true son of the omnipotent said.

[narlus]

Does that make anything wrong?

just yr statement that god didn't tell him.

[spincrazy]

you obviously dont pay attention. Ive disagreed w/ the Bush admin. on many fronts and am NOT a republican. Im just socially conservative for the most part. But w/ economy, environmental, foreign policy, Ive not towed ANY party's line.

No, I wasn't saying that. Only that you disagree just to play devil's advocate on nearly every occasion. I don't believe you really have these deep convictions about, well, anything. I've been here long enough....

[BurlyShirley]

No, I wasn't saying that. Only that you disagree just to play devil's advocate on nearly every occasion. I don't believe you really have these deep convictions about, well, anything. I've been here long enough....
Who the hell would you people argue with if I didnt?

[Changleen]

Who the hell would you people argue with if I didnt?It's true. Thanks Shirl.

[spincrazy]

It's true. Thanks Shirl.

ditto

[Old Man G Funk]

How do you know? You an expert?
No, I just read what the experts actually say instead of getting my science from policy wonks. Duh.

[Old Man G Funk]

Seriously though, what else could Bush have done? Im guessing he made a promise to his voters that he'd be against abortion. It wouldnt make much sense for him to support something like this. I mean, if he did, then you'd be all over him for being inconsistent. Its a no-win situation.
Abortion and using the stem cells of discarded embryos are 2 completely separate things. Linking the two is equivocating two unequal things.

[Old Man G Funk]

Does that make anything wrong?
Yes, it does. When he disregards the scientific data in favor of his religious leanings, then lies about it, it is most definitely wrong.

[Old Man G Funk]

Quit taking my explanations as "MY" argument. I understand fully (or as much as the next guy who has half paid attention) how useful stemcell research can/could be. Im all for it. Im just saying that it's not consistent with his "moral" platform and there's no way to win.
The IVF argument isnt necessarily a slam dunk becuase you have to examin who you're talking to, and what they're more concerned with is purpose than practicality. Or rather, that "creating" babies is different than experimenting on them.
This is predicated on believing that it is better to stay the course than to ever change one's mind, even when one is in error.

[Konabumm]

I'm sure that if something happens to Bush's family where Stem Cell research would help find a cure the bill will pass.

[Old Man G Funk]

I'm sure that if something happens to Bush's family where Stem Cell research would help find a cure the bill will pass.
Or to James Dobson's family.

[Old Man G Funk]

Thank you Stem Cell Bill.
Huh? I thought you were against the bill?

[Old Man G Funk]

Pffft.... :rolleyes:

It wasn't like Bush flip-flopped on this.. he said long ago it would be vetoed and it was. No one should be the least bit shocked.
Seeing as how this is the first bill that Bush has vetoed, does that mean that he did flip-flop every other time he threatened a veto and didn't follow through?

[Old Man G Funk]

Is this a flip-flop?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/24/AR2006072400990.html

[MMike]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003149873_stemcells25m.html

brilliant

[Changleen]

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/25/news/stem.php

The Governator is stepping up.

[Old Man G Funk]

Yes, 22, but some of those are basically useless. I thought I read somewhere that there were really only 11 that were still useful, but I can't back that up.

Either way, the 22 that we have is not enough.
Actually, N8, I can back that up now. All the 22 cells lines grown on mouse feeder cells, which makes them useless for many experiments.

Also, on pg. 191 of Chris Mooney's book, he reports that during an interview with Evan Snyder, the director of the Burnham Stem Cell Institute, that Snyder says that only 6 or 7 of the 22 lines are still considered useful to researchers.