The push for reparations grows....

[DRB]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13785355/

Advocates who say black Americans should be compensated for slavery and its Jim Crow aftermath are quietly chalking up victories and gaining momentum.

[sanjuro]

Should the US govt be made responsible for reparations? No way.

Do I care if slave trading families are sued? Since Asian-Americans never owned any slaves, I could care less.

[Silver]

Time to buy KFC and Fubu stock...

[Silver]

kinda racist there

Kools too...which tobacco company makes those?

[reflux]

kinda racist there
Reparations are to African Americans what estate tax cuts are to white people.

Okay, it is a bad, very bad analogy. However, the one thing they do have in common is that neither one will solve any problems.

[sanjuro]

kinda racist there
You better write a letter to Dave Chapelle then.

[Changleen]

Seems to me it's a bit late for this. After all, let's do a quick show of hands - Who here has been enslaved? Oh no-one? OK then...

[reflux]

Seems to me it's a bit late for this. After all, let's do a quick show of hands - Who here has been enslaved? Oh no-one? OK then...
However, the societal effects of slavery will contine to haunt the African American population for decades to come. To say that the racial problems associated with slavery disappeared after World War II, would be slightly incorrect, to say the least.

[sanjuro]

However, the societal effects of slavery will contine to haunt the African American population for decades to come. To say that the racial problems associated with slavery disappeared after World War II, would be slightly incorrect, to say the least.
I hope we are going to throw some money to the descendents of coolies.

"I'm Rich, Biatch"

[Changleen]

However, the societal effects of slavery will contine to haunt the African American population for decades to come. To say that the racial problems associated with slavery disappeared after World War II, would be slightly incorrect, to say the least.And a one-off payout will solve all that? I think if any cash is going to be thrown around it'd be much better directed at stuff like improving the quality of education in deprived areas and so on.

[Silver]

However, the societal effects of slavery will contine to haunt the African American population for decades to come. To say that the racial problems associated with slavery disappeared after World War II, would be slightly incorrect, to say the least.

C'mon this is America. If black people can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps and be independently successful due to hard work and know how (like our President, for example) that's their own fault.

[ALEXIS_DH]

i think affirmative action is a good form of reparation...

[reflux]

And a one-off payout will solve all that? I think if any cash is going to be thrown around it'd be much better directed at stuff like improving the quality of education in deprived areas and so on.
I agree with you completely in this regard: a one-time payout would do nothing to solve the problem. Actually, I think it would make the problem worse in that your normal white racist would spite the black man for having gotten something for free.

[manimal]

i'd be all for it if the money could ONLY be used to pay off debt that would ultimately lead to non-government assisted living. the problem in my area is that if reparations occurs there will be a whole crapload of escalades with 24" rims rolling around...but still the same longterm outlook. :rolleyes:

if you think i'm being ignorant, try working off-duty as security at a pawn shop during tax season. an average tax refund check from the "hood" is around $3-5k, cashed at the pawn shop for a 5% fee then spent completely on jewelry. if that money was properly applied, every one of those recipients of a tax refund could be on their own feet supporting themselves within two years.

it really pisses me off to see unearned money thrown away on worthless crap...i mean, they could at least by a nice DH bike ;)

oh yeah...slightly off topic. how the hell does one collect disability and is still able to run from the police on a weekly basis? :mad:

[kidwoo]

i'd be all for it if the money could ONLY be used to pay off debt that would ultimately lead to non-government assisted living. the problem in my area is that if reparations occurs there will be a whole crapload of escalades with 24" rims rolling around...but still the same longterm outlook. :rolleyes:

Well they are black you know.

That's what black people do.


if you think i'm being ignorant, try working off-duty as security at a pawn shop during tax season. an average tax refund check from the "hood" is around $3-5k, cashed at the pawn shop for a 5% fee then spent completely on jewelry. if that money was properly applied, every one of those recipients of a tax refund could be on their own feet supporting themselves within two years.

We'll they're not smart like white people. White people never spend money on frivolous things. And white people always act in their own best interest. Because they're white.

[sanjuro]

Well they are black you know.

That's what black people do.

We'll they're not smart like white people. White people never spend money on frivolous things. And white people always act in their own best interest. Because they're white.
I think it is probably poor people in general.

Or we might ask Manimal what was the percentages, black/white/latino/asian?

[ALEXIS_DH]

I think it is probably poor people in general.

Or we might ask Manimal what was the percentages, black/white/latino/asian?

more likely that.

whites get their earnhardt golden bust and fancy guns, blacks get their 24in rims and subwoofers, latinos get lowering springs and huge ass adorned flags, and asians get alienware computers and lots of porn... its all fair...

[sanjuro]

more likely that.

whites get their earnhardt golden bust and fancy guns, blacks get their 24in rims and subwoofers, latinos get lowering springs and huge ass adorned flags, and asians get alienware computers and lots of porn... its all fair...
That's racist. I own a Dell and I didn't know I could get porn on the computer. I guess I won't be RM anymore

[ALEXIS_DH]

That's racist. I own a Dell and I didn't know I could get porn on the computer. I guess I won't be RM anymore

guess what, i dont own a flag and my cars dont have lowering springs either.....
:rolleyes:

[sanjuro]

guess what, i dont own a flag and my cars dont have lowering springs either.....
:rolleyes:
because you are probably one of the "good" latinos...

[manimal]

We'll they're not smart like white people. White people never spend money on frivolous things. And white people always act in their own best interest. Because they're white.


the point is, if we're going to give money away for something that no one in recent generations had anything to do with (i'm american indian by bloodline but look rather scottish so i'm lumped in with the "honkey" catchphrase) then we better be providing mandatory financial responsibility classes. yes, every race and class spend money on different and frivolous things but a large percentage of those hoping for reparations to occur are in the above described category. lack of financial education in our public school system is one problem that, if fixed, could provide a direct link to a better future for our nation. yet another handout without parameters will only further the racial tensions and disparity.

what kind of reparations did my people get? some land and casinos?

i simply hate the victim mentality. no one OWES anyone anything this day and age.

[kidwoo]

i simply hate the victim mentality. no one OWES anyone anything this day and age.

I agree with you there.

Actually you might have a better case than the darkies.

See if you can work the native angle. Some more I mean.

How come you always look like you could get a sunburn in your pics?


Anyway.......your experience with people doing dumb things in a pawn shop somehow having a direct corellation to defining the angst of a good part of our population and thinking that's somehow representative of anything relevant is odd. Deadbeats occur accross the racial spectrum.

And yes handouts are stupid. But so are your assumptions about how such a handout might be used just because we're talking about the group in question. You make an assumption about the financial outlook of an entire race that's very well assimilated into this culture. Like you've never seen little brat white kids blowing money on stupid sh1t when given a similar handout.

Like sanjuro said......what you're describing is a poor thing, not a black thing. (which I wouldn't understand anyway, cuz you know....)

[LordOpie]

compare the average african-american to the average african... who's living the better life?

Yeah, I said it.

[DRB]

Like sanjuro said......what you're describing is a poor thing, not a black thing. (which I wouldn't understand anyway, cuz you know....)

But they aren't talking about giving reparations to poor people in general just the african american ones. Taking that into consideration you are in affect agreeing with Manimal.

[kidwoo]

compare the average african-american to the average african... who's living the better life?

Yeah, I said it.

Who cares.

You're people still have all the money.

[kidwoo]

But they aren't talking about giving reparations to poor people in general just the african american ones. Taking that into consideration you are in affect agreeing with Manimal.

No.

I'm poking at the assumption that a handout would go towards cadillacs and whatever else them there people buy as if wasting money is somehow particular to the group in question.........and more importantly is the obvious conclusion based on working in a pawn shop where the ENTIRE demographic is of course, represented in its entirety.

Edit: I can see you're point, but I'm 3 beers deep and it's going to blows before I admit anything of the sort.

[LordOpie]

Who cares.

You're people still have all the money.
We also own all the grammar too!

[kidwoo]

We also own all the grammar too!


Holey krap, yore rite!!

[sanjuro]

compare the average african-american to the average african... who's living the better life?

Yeah, I said it.
That's stupid. Africa was invaded by the "Colonial" powers. Look up Belgium Congo, and don't forget about the Afrikaaners.

[sanjuro]

the point is, if we're going to give money away for something that no one in recent generations had anything to do with (i'm american indian by bloodline but look rather scottish so i'm lumped in with the "honkey" catchphrase) then we better be providing mandatory financial responsibility classes. yes, every race and class spend money on different and frivolous things but a large percentage of those hoping for reparations to occur are in the above described category. lack of financial education in our public school system is one problem that, if fixed, could provide a direct link to a better future for our nation. yet another handout without parameters will only further the racial tensions and disparity.

what kind of reparations did my people get? some land and casinos?

i simply hate the victim mentality. no one OWES anyone anything this day and age.

I also agree. I am not against spending more money on underprivileged African Americans. Just look at the inner cities and their problems.

But handing out fat checks will just be a waste.

Is anyone here for that?

[BurlyShirley]

That's stupid. Africa was invaded by the "Colonial" powers. Look up Belgium Congo, and don't forget about the Afrikaaners.
Yeah, and it was sh!ttier before then than it is now.

[BurlyShirley]

I also agree. I am not against spending more money on underprivileged African Americans. Just look at the inner cities and their problems.

But handing out fat checks will just be a waste.

Is anyone here for that?

Well if Manimal can pass for an indian, then I can pass for black, and if I can pass for black then there might be a chance I get some cash. So im all for it.

[DRB]

No.

I'm poking at the assumption that a handout would go towards cadillacs and whatever else them there people buy as if wasting money is somehow particular to the group in question.........and more importantly is the obvious conclusion based on working in a pawn shop where the ENTIRE demographic is of course, represented in its entirety.

Edit: I can see you're point, but I'm 3 beers deep and it's going to blows before I admit anything of the sort.

No but a significant enough portion of reparations being paid would end up being spent like that so to make Manimal's point valid. As for the entire conclusion being based on the pawn shop, I'm not going to put words in Manimal's mouth but I'm guessing its going to also be based on his daily experiences as a police officer. Now while the percentages are totally going to be off because of him being a police officer it still brings relevancy to the point that a significant portion would be spent in a manner that does nothing to address inequities in the system based on slavery and civil rights violations.

[sanjuro]

Well if Manimal can pass for an indian, then I can pass for black, and if I can pass for black then there might be a chance I get some cash. So im all for it.
You might look black, but you're 100% negro to me...

[DRB]

But handing out fat checks will just be a waste.

Is anyone here for that?

I'm so into a fat check so that I could waste it needlessly. Its what I did with that "rebate" check we got a few years ago. I bought booze, beer and bbq and had a huge party.

Y'all were all invited how come you didn't show? Bastards see if I ever do anything nice for y'all again.

[BurlyShirley]

You might look black, but you're 100% negro to me...
at leaste from the waste down, eh?

[blue]

And a one-off payout will solve all that? I think if any cash is going to be thrown around it'd be much better directed at stuff like improving the quality of education in deprived areas and so on.

In an attempt to rerail this thread away from sarcastic and serious racism (the line becomes blurred after 2 pages :rolleyes:)...

I agree. If any reparations are to be made, they should be to help better impoverished communities in predominantly black areas. Hell, why not jack up the estate tax and pump the revenue into blighted and impoverished areas as a whole? Or put money thats being spent dominating other sovereign...you get the point.

Loopie, go study some African history before making asshat comments like that. You know better.

[LordOpie]

That's stupid. Africa was invaded by the "Colonial" powers. Look up Belgium Congo, and don't forget about the Afrikaaners.
If Africa is so great, why don't african-americans go back?

Was it wrong to kidnap and enslave them? Of course, but their descendents have a better life here than in AIDS and Malaria ridden, economically depressed, genocidal waste-land their non-enslaved brethen exist in.

[Changleen]

Yeah, and it was sh!ttier before then than it is now.Depends how you look at it. I'd have said it was better.

[Changleen]

If Africa is so great, why don't african-americans go back?'Coz that sh1t's ****ed up for real now, dawg.

[DaveW]

Should the US govt be made responsible for reparations? No way.


So just restrict it to the former confederate states. :sneaky: :evil:

[MMike]

kinda racist there

Thank you David Brent......

[valve bouncer]

If Africa is so great, why don't african-americans go back?

Was it wrong to kidnap and enslave them? Of course, but their descendents have a better life here than in AIDS and Malaria ridden, economically depressed, genocidal waste-land their non-enslaved brethen exist in.
How come when white people piss and moan about things they don't like they aren't told "go back to Europe"? Or Israel even...

[Old Man G Funk]

How come when white people piss and moan about things they don't like they aren't told "go back to Europe"? Or Israel even...
Go back to Australia.:oink:

[valve bouncer]

Go back to Australia.:oink:
God, I wish mate. I'm still trying to find that perfect mix of bad behaviour that's enough to get me deported but not enough to get me sent to jail.
:rofl:

[DRB]

God, I wish mate. I'm still trying to find that perfect mix of bad behaviour that's enough to get me deported but not enough to get me sent to jail.
:rofl:

Jump the fence at the imperial palace?

[LordOpie]

didn't realise you were such a racist.VB

How is what I said racist?

I wasn't commenting on people, but geography, politics, health and economics. Africa is one jacked up continent that's either ignored by the UN/US or lied to by the Vatican.

[LordOpie]

'Coz that sh1t's ****ed up for real now, dawg.
Exactly.

[ohio]

How come when white people piss and moan about things they don't like they aren't told "go back to Europe"? Or Israel even...
We get "go to hell." Duh.

[MMike]

Several times people (americans) have asked me why the Quebec french don't go "back to France".....I then remind them that technically, the french have been in quebec longer than the americans in america.....

[BurlyShirley]

Several times people (americans) have asked me why the Quebec french don't go "back to France".....I then remind them that technically, the french have been in quebec longer than the americans in america.....
Except those native americans...

Oh, and mexicans.

[kidwoo]

How come when white people piss and moan about things they don't like they aren't told "go back to Europe"? Or Israel even...


Because manimal's people don't rise up and tell us to.

[DRB]

Several times people (americans) have asked me why the Quebec french don't go "back to France".....I then remind them that technically, the french have been in quebec longer than the americans in america.....

I'm quite sure that most Americans could careless where they are as long as they aren't here.

Now I suspect that a TON of English speakin' Canadians ask your question all the time.

[MMike]

You racist

[kidwoo]

You racist


Dude, some of his best friends are canadian.

[fluff]

So who's supposed to be paying the reparations? The slave owners, the slave shippers, the slave traders, the slave catchers, or the original tenants of the plantations where the slaves worked?

[DRB]

Dude, some of his best friends are canadian.

So is my Mom.

[BurlyShirley]

So who's supposed to be paying the reparations? The slave owners, the slave shippers, the slave traders, the slave catchers, or the original tenants of the plantations where the slaves worked?
I dont see how ANY of those people could be held liable because slavery was LEGAL. They didnt break any laws, only operated within them, so Im not quite sure anyone should have legal standing to demand money from them.
The only thing I could see is if the govt. payed out for making "bad" decisions, but it was a different world back then, and MY tax dollars shouldnt go to that. Im only 2nd gen. american.

[kidwoo]

So is my Mom.


She told me she was french.

[fluff]

I dont see how ANY of those people could be held liable because slavery was LEGAL. They didnt break any laws, only operated within them, so Im not quite sure anyone should have legal standing to demand money from them.
The only thing I could see is if the govt. payed out for making "bad" decisions, but it was a different world back then, and MY tax dollars shouldnt go to that. Im only 2nd gen. american.
Well, I was being facetious but your response made me think about the legality of slave trading.

First the slaves had to be captured. Probably illegal in their eyes, and possibly in their homeland. Now if we ignore that part then it still is questionable as one can only assume that whilst is was legal to then transport, trade and own these slaves, it was illegal to just randomly enslave people? So the law would have been built on the premise that slaves were effectively a sub-people. So whilst it may have been legal it was certainly immoral.

So, are there any legal precedents for retrospective action for legal yet immoral acts?

[BurlyShirley]

Well from my understanding, it wasnt like europeans went in and just rounded up a bunch of people to be slaves. They traded goods to african tribes who provided slaves.
Now, if africans are capturing africans, then how's it illegal on the traders' part?

[fluff]

She told me she was french.
She told me she liked it Greek.

[fluff]

Well from my understanding, it wasnt like europeans went in and just rounded up a bunch of people to be slaves. They traded goods to african tribes who provided slaves.
Now, if africans are capturing africans, then how's it illegal on the traders' part?
Slaves were often captured by other African tribes. Arabs were the mainstay of the slave trading, Europeans were doing a lot of the transporting (and the US was pretty much European in attitude and culture after all).

As for the second question, if it's illegal to enslave people, how can it be legal to own slaves? It's a bit like stealing and owning stolen goods.

[DRB]

She told me she liked it Greek.

Just in case you missed it..... y'all are talking about my MOM.

[Silver]

It's legal to own slaves. Says so in the Bible.

You people could avoid a lot of worry with a little reading of the good book. Man, I wish I had a couple of hot horny daughters to get me drunk right now...

[fluff]

Just in case you missed it..... y'all are talking about my MOM.
Ah... I thought we were talking about kidwoo's mom.. sorry:)

[BurlyShirley]

Slaves were often captured by other African tribes. Arabs were the mainstay of the slave trading, Europeans were doing a lot of the transporting (and the US was pretty much European in attitude and culture after all).

As for the second question, if it's illegal to enslave people, how can it be legal to own slaves? It's a bit like stealing and owning stolen goods.

Still, this is the fault of the lawmakers, not the people operating under the laws.

[fluff]

Still, this is the fault of the lawmakers, not the people operating under the laws.
Yup, so the state should pay.

But the whole idea is dumb.

[Silver]

Still, this is the fault of the lawmakers, not the people operating under the laws.

Be careful with that. You just let Himmler off the hook there...

[BurlyShirley]

Be careful with that. You just let Himmler off the hook there...

Dude, Im just saying you cant go and sue Chevy for not having seatbelts before seatbelts were required. You cant make people pay money for essentially following the law. Makes no sense. What's next?

[Silver]

Dude, Im just saying you cant go and sue Chevy for not having seatbelts before seatbelts were required. You cant make people pay money for essentially following the law. Makes no sense. What's next?

I agree with you. Slavery at the time was normal, accepted by most cultures, and wasn't in general frowned upon. That doesn't make it right, but at the same time, it wasn't like the slave trade was a new thing that popped up overnight that turned the conventional rules of morality around.

[dan-o]

If reparations must be paid I'd suggest that they be issued soley in the form of education credit. If you aren't willing to commit the funds to bettering yourself/a family member then you're SOL.

[blue]

If Africa is so great, why don't african-americans go back?

Was it wrong to kidnap and enslave them? Of course, but their descendents have a better life here than in AIDS and Malaria ridden, economically depressed, genocidal waste-land their non-enslaved brethen exist in.

And who caused that ****hole known as Africa...yeah...okay.

[ALEXIS_DH]

So, are there any legal precedents for retrospective action for legal yet immoral acts?

numerberg trials??
in fact there is, in international law, an exemption to the retroactive application of laws, regardless of jurisdiction and local laws, for genocide, crimes against humanity and stuff like that.

you can well argue that against slavery.

[BurlyShirley]

numerberg trials??
in fact there is, in international law, an exemption to the retroactive application of laws, regardless of jurisdiction and local laws, for genocide, crimes against humanity and stuff like that.

you can well argue that against slavery.
But at what historical distance does that cease to apply? You can't go sueing Mongolia for the destruction caused by Ghengis Kahn.

[ALEXIS_DH]

But at what historical distance does that cease to apply? You can't go sueing Mongolia for the destruction caused by Ghengis Kahn.

actually, genocide, crimes against humanity and stuff like that "do not prescribe", that can pretty much mean "forever", unless there is a precedent for said case where a related claim has been dropped.....

although i believe affirmative actions is a good enough form of reparation.. its not a handout, but gives an incentive to achieving miniorities (who would otherwise have it too hard to compete, partly because their background and history) by lowering the bar, then hopefully, wealth attained by harder work will trickle down...

[LordOpie]

And who caused that ****hole known as Africa...yeah...okay.
How about this... attach a monetary figure to reparations and use that money to improve the African motherland?

[DRB]

And who caused that ****hole known as Africa...yeah...okay.

The Europeans....

[Changleen]

How about this... attach a monetary figure to reparations and use that money to improve the African motherland?Or, y'know, just... don't.

[Changleen]

The Europeans....Only 'cos you weren't around at the time, n00bs.

[fluff]

At what point will Africans take responsibility for Africa?

[LordOpie]

At what point will Africans take responsibility for Africa?
Love it or leave it.

[Changleen]

At what point will Africans take responsibility for Africa?Maybe when they can at the end of their economic rape. I don't think we're done yet though... It's China's turn now, but America is getting hard again.

[rockwool]

At what point will Africans take responsibility for Africa?

They need to keep their natural resources so the profits don't go to western companies, who wouldn't be there in the first place if the WTO and IMF hadn't forced all poor countries to sellout.

[rockwool]

guess what, i dont own a flag and my cars dont have lowering springs either.....
:rolleyes:


No but you still park you car on the lawn ;)

[rockwool]

what kind of reparations did my people get? some land and casinos?

i simply hate the victim mentality. no one OWES anyone anything this day and age.


The reason you didn't get any doesen't mean that you or they don't diserve it. Start asking for it.
Do you know how big that genocide was (in numbers)?

A lot of people are still stinkin' rich from what their families profited from the slaves. Why do they deserve something they haven't earned and not the slave ancestors? Their wealth should only be seen as something they was fortunate to have during all those years, but not to keep.

[BurlyShirley]

Their wealth should only be seen as something they was fortunate to have during all those years, but not to keep.

Why? They earned it legally and passed it on to their families. If anyone is to blame, its the government, and they ARE giving back to blacks every day. Not saying the situation is getting any better, but handout checks wont help a damn thing.

[fluff]

Maybe when they can at the end of their economic rape. I don't think we're done yet though... It's China's turn now, but America is getting hard again.
They could do a lot to help themselves but time and time again they fall foul of corruption and inter-ethnic conflict.

Sure the West has created some problems, they have also tried many times to help but the African nations seem intend on hamstringing themselves.

[rockwool]

Agree about handout checks. Money shoulod go to somthing like scollarships, funds etc.
These people have been used as animals, punished mentaly so bad that they still today can't rise up. Indians and aborigines maybe even worse..
This money will give them hope, make sure that anybody an not just top scollars can get a degree, or even get out of high school.

Slavery was just as moraly wicked evil then as it is now. Just because it took some time for the law to come to its senses don't mean their wealts were made morally correct.

[rockwool]

They could do a lot to help themselves but time and time again they fall foul of corruption and inter-ethnic conflict.

Sure the West has created some problems, they have also tried many times to help but the African nations seem intend on hamstringing themselves.

Every dollar they make goes to pay of debts to the world bank.. These debts should be written off. Then western countries could aid with their Knowhow instead of economic bandaids.

[fluff]

Every dollar they make goes to pay of debts to the world bank.. These debts should be written off. Then western countries could aid with their Knowhow instead of economic bandaids.
Problems with that:

Many debts have been written off
Much aid has been squandered
They seem to have sufficient money for arms and luxuries for the Elite
If they make nothing then they will have nothing (hence the situation with struggling to pay debts)

Too many African states do not help themselves and simply blame history for their problems. Unless they change their philosophy they will remain poor. Many nations on other continents have managed growth, why do so few African states manage it?

[rockwool]

Problems with that:

Many debts have been written off
Much aid has been squandered
They seem to have sufficient money for arms and luxuries for the Elite
If they make nothing then they will have nothing (hence the situation with struggling to pay debts)

Too many African states do not help themselves and simply blame history for their problems. Unless they change their philosophy they will remain poor. Many nations on other continents have managed growth, why do so few African states manage it?

Actually none has managed that to my knowledge. Egypt who gets more aid than any country, exept Israel, can't do it. Why? Dunno.

It is in the western worlds interest to keep them divided and fighting both for its arms sales and so that they can use the chaos and opportunistic groups to get the diamonds, oil and other whealth out to a minimal cost.

Corruption can be kept at a minimal by giving them aid trough knowledge. Help them help them selves, not with money, but trough education, design certain factories etc so they can get self sufficient to a greater extent.
But the west don't want to do that also because they will then loose even more money because they won't export as much. The new competition will also have cheaper labour costs...and they might even loose their own home market...
The elite is no different than ours. They don't mind where they step to get their wealth.

[blue]

They could do a lot to help themselves but time and time again they fall foul of corruption and inter-ethnic conflict.

Sure the West has created some problems, they have also tried many times to help but the African nations seem intend on hamstringing themselves.

You mean, European asshats colonizing everything (eg, Britain), and then saying "Awww, **** you guys, have fun!"?

Europe (Namely the Belgians, English, French, and Germans) IS the reason Africa is, has, and probably forever will be a ****hole.

Viva Leopold, eh Fluff?

[Tenchiro]

I say everyone who has been a slave should get $5,000,000

[MMike]

I blame the jewish puerto ricans

[BurlyShirley]

I blame the jewish puerto ricans
I know one of those, and he's the most ****ed up individual Ive ever come in contact with...

seriously.

[rockwool]

You mean, European asshats colonizing everything (eg, Britain), and then saying "Awww, **** you guys, have fun!"?

Europe (Namely the Belgians, English, French, and Germans) IS the reason Africa is, has, and probably forever will be a ****hole.

Viva Leopold, eh Fluff?

Don't forget Italy who tried to colonize Ethiopia because Haile Sellassie wasn't a mason...

Spain has still parts of Marocco.

[SDH]

Too many African states do not help themselves and simply blame history for their problems. Unless they change their philosophy they will remain poor. Many nations on other continents have managed growth, why do so few African states manage it?

This hold's true in the US also........................in many ways............

[fluff]

Out of interest does anyone here disagree with the following:

"We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"

Furthermore does it strike anyone that the above statement is wholly incompatible with the concept of slavery?

[rockwool]

Out of interest does anyone here disagree with the following:

"We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"

Furthermore does it strike anyone that the above statement is wholly incompatible with the concept of slavery?

I second that.

[fluff]

You mean, European asshats colonizing everything (eg, Britain), and then saying "Awww, **** you guys, have fun!"?

Europe (Namely the Belgians, English, French, and Germans) IS the reason Africa is, has, and probably forever will be a ****hole.

Viva Leopold, eh Fluff?
Colonialism was a big ****up, no argument but it is over. For the sake of argument why don't you list the African nations that are well governed since independence?

[V-Dub GTI]

The reason you didn't get any doesen't mean that you or they don't diserve it. Start asking for it.
Do you know how big that genocide was (in numbers)?

A lot of people are still stinkin' rich from what their families profited from the slaves. Why do they deserve something they haven't earned and not the slave ancestors? Their wealth should only be seen as something they was fortunate to have during all those years, but not to keep.

but a lot of white people arn't. a lot of people never onwed slaves because they cost a lot of money. example: my grandfather came from a poverty stricken family. they had a hard time keeping food on the table and shelter over there heads. when wwII came along my grandfather went and singed up to fight. once he got out of the army he got paid quite a bit of money and he used that money to buy a store. once that store became successful he invested that money in stock and real estate. he was a multi-millionaire, until he passed away in january 2004, now my family inherits all of his money, stock holds, and real estate. his family NEVER onwed slaves.

[rockwool]

but a lot of white people arn't. a lot of people never onwed slaves because they cost a lot of money. example: my grandfather came from a poverty stricken family. they had a hard time keeping food on the table and shelter over there heads. when wwII came along my grandfather went and singed up to fight. once he got out of the army he got paid quite a bit of money and he used that money to buy a store. once that store became successful he invested that money in stock and real estate. he was a multi-millionaire, until he passed away in january 2004, now my family inherits all of his money, stock holds, and real estate. his family NEVER onwed slaves.

Didn't write or mean that families that are white should cough up. Only the ones that profited from it. It's stolen money.

[DRB]

Out of interest does anyone here disagree with the following:

"We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"

Furthermore does it strike anyone that the above statement is wholly incompatible with the concept of slavery?

Of course its wholly incompatible with the concept of slavery but the realities at the time that it was written were such that if slavery had been addressed the document that followed would have never been signed and the country would have never been founded. Political realities existed even then.

And in less than 75 years that incompatibility forced a Civil War that produced close to a million casualties (650,000 dead) which at the time was approximately 3% of the population.

[BuddhaRoadkill]

Out of interest does anyone here disagree with the following:

"We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"

Furthermore does it strike anyone that the above statement is wholly incompatible with the concept of slavery?
You idgit. It's pursuit of "property". :mumble: Fricken revisionist history nonsense. As for your question, it all depends on how you define "men". If by "men" you mean white, penis toting, land owner, then it's entirely compatible. If you mean "men", as in "man", as in "human" ... then no, it's incompatible.

[... and all those were finger quotes. Good for those mouthing the words as they read along with the rest of us.]

[Old Man G Funk]

You idgit. It's pursuit of "property". :mumble: Fricken revisionist history nonsense.
That was Jefferson's first edit, but the revision wasn't by history but by the delegation that finally drafted the document.

[fluff]

Of course its wholly incompatible with the concept of slavery but the realities at the time that it was written were such that if slavery had been addressed the document that followed would have never been signed and the country would have never been founded. Political realities existed even then.

And in less than 75 years that incompatibility forced a Civil War that produced close to a million casualties (650,000 dead) which at the time was approximately 3% of the population.
Fair point but we still have a legal activity (slavery) that was acknowledged by some to be morally wrong. Doesn't make for a strong legal foundation.

[LordOpie]

You idgit. It's pursuit of "property". :mumble: Fricken revisionist history nonsense. As for your question, it all depends on how you define "men". If by "men" you mean white, penis toting, land owner, then it's entirely compatible. If you mean "men", as in "man", as in "human" ... then no, it's incompatible.

[... and all those were finger quotes. Good for those mouthing the words as they read along with the rest of us.]
I just want to emphasize that point... blacks weren't considered people back then.

Heck, they even thought my people had horns... which would be cool in a Wolverine kind of way.

[fluff]

You idgit. It's pursuit of "property". :mumble: Fricken revisionist history nonsense. As for your question, it all depends on how you define "men". If by "men" you mean white, penis toting, land owner, then it's entirely compatible. If you mean "men", as in "man", as in "human" ... then no, it's incompatible.

[... and all those were finger quotes. Good for those mouthing the words as they read along with the rest of us.]
As OMGF said the final draft read as I quoted. Imagine how many goons would have jumped on it had I used anything else. There were other differences in the original draft also.

Anyway, exchanging happiness for property makes no difference to the relevant part. As for the definition of "men", well, in the absence of any riders defining men as exclusive to any particular group I guess we should assume an inclusive meaning.

[DRB]

Fair point but we still have a legal activity (slavery) that was acknowledged by some to be morally wrong. Doesn't make for a strong legal foundation.

Strong legal foundation? A strong legal foundation is one that allows for modifications and updates and improvements as time goes on. The Constitution was amended to specifically address the inconsistency.

So what should they have done? Risk having the whole thing fall apart?

[fluff]

Strong legal foundation? A strong legal foundation is one that allows for modifications and updates and improvements as time goes on. The Constitution was amended to specifically address the inconsistency.

So what should they have done? Risk having the whole thing fall apart?
Perhaps they should have had the war then? May have been less destructive in the long term.

But that's off the subject, the point being that slavery was not universally seen as moral.

[DRB]

Perhaps they should have had the war then? May have been less destructive in the long term.

But that's off the subject, the point being that slavery was not universally seen as moral.

There wouldn't have been a war. The country would have dissovled into 2 or 3 loosely related countries that may or may have not survived as entities more than a few years. The founding fathers knew that and made some difficult decisions.

Sure it wasn't seen as universally moral then. However, it was widely accepted. What is interesting that those that were loudest in dissent in not dealing with slavery were Christians.

[BurlyShirley]

You idgit. It's pursuit of "property". :mumble: Fricken revisionist history nonsense.
No actually you're thinking of John Locke.


Edit: Someone beat me to it.