North Korean missile launch on 4th of July

[Transcend]

In order to antagonize the US further, NK has just launched 2 missiles. The US has been waiting for a Taepodong 3 stage missile test (ICBM). This is NOT that, it was simply 2 smaller missiles (so far).

Kim Jong Il must just LOVE to piss off the US by doing these "tests" on the 4th of July. "Rook at me mr bush. I stirr here!"

Comments on how mental this guy is are appreciated - bonus points for being "so ronery".

edit: The Taepodong is on it's launch pad and the fuel trucks have pulled back according to spy satts. The shuttle can remain fueled for 3 days before it needs to refuel due to the gasses venting..any idea on how long a smaller icbm could sit on a pad, fueled?

edit2: Taepodong has been launched. It is potentially capable of reaching us soil, but so far reports are that it broke up midair. Japan expected about to make a presidential address shortly, and UN is calling an emergency Sec. Council meeting tonight.

[stevew]

I thought they were helping us celebrate the 4th?

[Transcend]

Maybe, he needs someone to party with...so ronery.

[MikeD]

Sky rockets in flight...afternoon delight!

Edit:

Sure not going to be a rest-of-life delight for those North Korean rocket scientists...Kim Jong-il might be a little ornery after this test...

[stevew]

Sky rockets in flight...afternoon delight!


Starlight Vocal Band

[Changleen]

Hahaha - Kim is such a source of amusement. :rofl:

[Transcend]

I really want to see him on tv all pissed off an dranting in korean/engrish. I bet his forehead pulses like some alien brain being thing.

[Changleen]

There may alledgedly possibly have been a 4th launch...

[blue]

There may alledgedly possibly have been a 4th launch...

People of Fairbanks! RUN!!!!!!%!%!231

[Transcend]

They have fired 6 missiles now. Apparently first 2, then tp2, then a no dong (hurrrr) and then some scuds. he is just lobbing firecrackers into the damn ocen anow lik ehe is playing battleship with the us subs.

A3 - phoooosh - miss
k17 - phooosh - miss
c9 - phoooosh - missle falls apart

KJ goes mental and just starts hitting every red button he can.

[narlus]

Starlight Vocal Band

starland vocal band.

did they have another hit?

[stevew]

starland vocal band.

did they have another hit?
I knew that was wrong.

That was the only song I remember by them.

[Changleen]

People of Fairbanks! RUN!!!!!!%!%!231No, He's decided to brave it out.

[MikeD]

No, He's decided to brave it out.

Pretty brave for a moose, if you ask me...

[V-Dub GTI]

he has now launched 10 missles, 9 confirmed.

[Demomonkey]

"Rook at me mr bush. I stirr here!"

LOL :rofl:

I just loved kim in World Police....his finest moment. who would have thought he had the voice of an angel? im still waiting for his duet with celine dion....

[TheMontashu]

He wants something, probably food or some sort of other aid. His country has zero infistructure, his people are starving and dieing because he has spend all his money in the military, now all he can try and threaten us with his army in order to get some food and medicane and stuff like that.

[narlus]

like he gives a sh!t about his people.

[binary visions]

like he gives a sh!t about his people.
He cares about his people so much that he's going to pick a fight with a major nuclear power. :rolleyes:

I wonder if he'll let those same people share his bomb shelter if he starts a war?

[fluff]

I wonder how much more Bush (or Clinton for that matter) cares(cared) about his people.

[DRB]

I wonder how much more Bush (or Clinton for that matter) cares(cared) about his people.

Substanially more.

[Old Man G Funk]

Substanially more.
Yeah, we have more riches to plunder than North Koreans. It stands to reason that our leaders would care about our money....er I mean us more.:oink:

[dhbuilder]

He cares about his people so much that he's going to pick a fight with a major nuclear power. :rolleyes:

I wonder if he'll let those same people share his bomb shelter if he starts a war?

i heard his country described as a prison more than a country.
with an astounding starvation rate.

while the whole world is laughing their @$$es off at the little fool.
he actually does pose a threat to our servicemen along the north/south d.m.z.
and south korea is afraid of the collapse of his government.
which would lead to a massive influx of refugees.

the only real problem from all of this, is that as of now china has yet to denounce his temper tantrum.
for a nation that is making big leaps into the global(our)economy. they'd be wise to separate themselves from this chump.

[valve bouncer]

I hope the midget little fruitcake bombs Japan. Might be enough to make the missus wanna move.

[BikeGeek]

...but so far reports are that it broke up midair...
Interesting. Any word on US involvement in it "breaking up?" I know we had Aegis cruisers armed with missile defense systems (the ones that have actually worked consistantly) on alert, presumably in the Sea of Japan. Korea was told we would shoot down any test flights.

[stevew]

People of Fairbanks! RUN!!!!!!%!%!231
From these...

http://www.hobbylinc.com/gr/est/est1382.jpg

[Westy]

Interesting. Any word on US involvement in it "breaking up?" I know we had Aegis cruisers armed with missile defense systems (the ones that have actually worked consistantly) on alert, presumably in the Sea of Japan. Korea was told we would shoot down any test flights.

We had nothing to do with it. They just pumped it too many times.

http://scientificsonline.com/images/250/31104-00.JPG

[TheMontashu]

like he gives a sh!t about his people.
He doesn't give a **** about his people, but he does give a **** about his power, and with all his people dead he has no pwer.

[TheMontashu]

Interesting. Any word on US involvement in it "breaking up?" I know we had Aegis cruisers armed with missile defense systems (the ones that have actually worked consistantly) on alert, presumably in the Sea of Japan. Korea was told we would shoot down any test flights.
I think the U.S. was stayin away from using our missle defence system, it is not 100% reliable and we would not want to look bad by missing.

[narlus]

no, all he needs to do is to control the military. it's SOP for dictators, and has been used many times in Africa.

[Transcend]

From these...

http://www.hobbylinc.com/gr/est/est1382.jpg

Holy crap, I have that EXACT rocket hanging in my bathroom. 3 stage model rockets are fun ****!

Also, from what I understand, the US was prepared to shoot down Mr Kim's Dong2, but they didn't need to as it was a piece of crap that fell apart on its own.

[Transcend]

For the record. The US has a little over 2.5 million servicemen and women, NK has about 5.5 million. OF course, the us training and equipment is a massive force multiplier, especially when you consider the fact that the NK forces are conscripted and don't want to be there.

NK has 2 major cities. You are selected to be allowed to live in it...most of the population is not, and is forced to live outside the cities in rural areas. Only officials etc are allowed to live in the cities. I highly doubt this is a ploy for food, as China supplies much of what they need, when Jong Il allows it to come in. He routinely bans food shipments from entering the country.

[golgiaparatus]

Does your taepodong itch if you get the crap? And why do the call it the crap anyway? Its not rike it deserves aprause, its more rike cramidia isnt it?

hahaha... I'm so hirarious.

[Transcend]

Hirarious is now the word of the day. Feer free to sprinkre it around the rounge.

[urbaindk]

Hirarious is now the word of the day. Feer free to sprinkre it around the rounge.


You guys are completely missing the point of this whole debacle!







Yes - l's are r's, but r's are also l's. Got it? Jeez.

Hiralious is now the word of the day. Feer flee to splinkre it alound the rounge.

[dhbuilder]

i also hear the north korea is a major counterfitter of our $50 and $100 bills.
they launder them in macao and then use the proceeds to feed the slush fund that bribes and keeps happy the chosen ones who get to live in the two aforementioned cities.

seems we found out about the banks in macao, siezed the fake cash and p.o.'ed the n.koreans to the point that they split from the six country talks.
and then they demanded the $$$ back before they would return to the bargaining table.

what a bunch of kooks.

[ATOMICFIREBALL]

Quiet RUSSIA is mainland USA's only real nuclear threat still.........
Right ?

[MikeD]

Quiet RUSSIA is mainland USA's only real nuclear threat still.........
Right ?

Errrrr, China?

[valve bouncer]

i also hear the north korea is a major counterfitter of our $50 and $100 bills.
they launder them in macao and then use the proceeds to feed the slush fund that bribes and keeps happy the chosen ones who get to live in the two aforementioned cities.

seems we found out about the banks in macao, siezed the fake cash and p.o.'ed the n.koreans to the point that they split from the six country talks.
and then they demanded the $$$ back before they would return to the bargaining table.

what a bunch of kooks.
They also supply most of the speed to the Japanese market, as well as having a heavy presence in the organised crime world.

[DRB]

Errrrr, China?

Who??

[dhbuilder]

They also supply most of the speed to the Japanese market, as well as having a heavy presence in the organised crime world.

more and more stories about this creep are coming out now.

seems he has a thing for little girls too.
reports have him searching the countryside for pretty girls, some as young as 13. for his personal harem.

quite a little world he's built for himself.

[BurlyShirley]

more and more stories about this creep are coming out now.

seems he has a thing for little girls too.
reports have him searching the countryside for pretty girls, some as young as 13. for his personal harem.

quite a little world he's built for himself.
must be nice...

[binary visions]

Was listening to a report this morning that he says he's going to continue testing, and there will be repercussions if people try to interfere?

"We're going to shoot some missles at you, and we're going to be angry if you stop them!"

[dhbuilder]

when all this first came about.
i listened as military pundits went on about taking the missles out as they sat on the launch pad.

at first i thought that was way too bold and ballsy of a move.
but now i'm thinking that's exactly what needs to be done.

followed promptly by a message saying "that's all you got, biotch ?"

oh, to be a fly on the wall in his room then.

[BurlyShirley]

Whatever.

IMO, Korea would be the next Vietnam if we got too ballsy.

[valve bouncer]

Whatever.

IMO, Korea would be the next Vietnam if we got too ballsy.
Shirly made a funny:rofl:

[dhbuilder]

Whatever.

IMO, Korea would be the next Vietnam if we got too ballsy.

they don't have the support behind them like n.vietnam did.

china is their only hope.
and they only appease the fool because they don't want his government to collapse, and therefore be flooded with all his skinny refugees.

i'd be willing to bet what we are witnessing is the slow implosion of his regime.
but it sounds like the ones who are in position to fill the void are worse than he is.

[BurlyShirley]

they don't have the support behind them like n.vietnam did.

china is their only hope.
and they only appease the fool because they don't want his government to collapse, and therefore be flooded with all his skinny refugees.

i'd be willing to bet what we are witnessing is the slow implosion of his regime.
but it sounds like the ones who are in position to fill the void are worse than he is.
Dude, if you dont think China is the new USSR, and we're not in the early stages of a cold war, you're wrong...
China probably wouldnt be so public about it, but they'd definitley have an interest in keeping us occupied with yet another longlasting conflict of which there is no hope for profitable resolution.
I think Korea would be well fed by the Chinese.

[dhbuilder]

Dude, if you dont think China is the new USSR, and we're not in the early stages of a cold war, you're wrong...
China probably wouldnt be so public about it, but they'd definitley have an interest in keeping us occupied with yet another longlasting conflict of which there is no hope for profitable resolution.
I think Korea would be well fed by the Chinese.

while i do agree that china has very quietly become our biggest global adversary.
i doubt they would do anything if we toppled a few scuds off the n.korean launch pads.
they aren't saying much now.
but they like everyone else, don't want this fool emboldening himself into firing off missles in a southernly direction.
that and an errant missle falling on japan, is our main concern.

china has too much to lose with their position in this global economy.
they've been quietly setting up free trade deals with countries all throughout this continent and beyond.

hard currency rules these days.
china wants it.

but it is a touchy situation.
we have our troops along the 38th. parralell to consider.
and i doubt we have any intentions or dreams of toppling his regime and trying to set up a democracy there. china knows that.

with kim, it's another case of "better the devil you know".
we just need to keep him in check.

[Changleen]

Why the fvck do people have to frame EVERYTHING in terms of conflict? It's so fvcking childish!

[BurlyShirley]

Why the fvck do people have to frame EVERYTHING in terms of conflict? It's so fvcking childish!
Relax Francis.

[sanjuro]

Relax Francis.
lol!!!!

What are diplomats of New Zealand going to do? Attack North Korea with Saraman's orcs?

Since NZ is such strong disarmament proponents, here is their perfect opportunity to have a positive effect on world peace.

Or are they going to hang back and let the big boys take care of it, once again?

[Changleen]

lol!!!!

What are diplomats of New Zealand going to do? Attack North Korea with Saraman's orcs?

Since NZ is such strong disarmament proponents, here is their perfect opportunity to have a positive effect on world peace.

Or are they going to hang back and let the big boys take care of it, once again?Helen's said her piece. It's up to you if you read it or not, and it's up to the media if they report it or not. It's been reported locally.

One might say we're having a positive effect by not antagonising NK, and by providing a consistant corridor of diplomacy betweent he US and China, because we are one of the only westernised countries who have good relations with both.

[BikeGeek]

I think the U.S. was stayin away from using our missle defence system, it is not 100% reliable and we would not want to look bad by missing.
It's a big system, there's a lot more to it than being covered by the news. The only press it gets is the negative press surrounding the ground-based system that used to be referred to as the "National Missile Defense" system. I don't think it's hit a thing yet. However, there are smaller systems that are doing quite well in testing (Aegis, THAAD) and in the field (PAC-3). Aegis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_Ballistic_Missile_Defense_System) has only had one miss since testing began in 1999.

[DaveW]

lol!!!!

What are diplomats of New Zealand going to do? Attack North Korea with Saraman's orcs?

Since NZ is such strong disarmament proponents, here is their perfect opportunity to have a positive effect on world peace.

Or are they going to hang back and let the big boys take care of it, once again?


Historicly the north south Korea is a product of US/USSR machinations post WW2.

..... Why the hell should we have to clean up your mess bud?


Be nice if the USA could stop making it's problem everyone elses. :clue:

[Changleen]

Or are they going to hang back and let the big boys take care of it, once again?Your record of 'taking care of it' is fvcking sh1t, frankly. Maybe you shoud just STFU. It's be a lot more helpful.

[sanjuro]

Historicly the north south Korea is a product of US/USSR machinations post WW2.

..... Why the hell should we have to clean up your mess bud?


Be nice if the USA could stop making it's problem everyone elses. :clue:
You don't have to do diddly. Its our mess, and we are going to take care of it.

But if the other countries have nothing to offer, then what's the point of your criticism? I like to hear what South Korea, China, Russia, Taiwan, and Japan has to say, but NZ?

[sanjuro]

Your record of 'taking care of it' is fvcking sh1t, frankly. Maybe you shoud just STFU. It's be a lot more helpful.
Hey, relax Francis, no need to make it personal.

I think you can guess while I am somewhat liberal and extremely anti-Bush, that I also do not take well to outside criticism of American politics.

Most countries are happy to hang back and let the USA take the brunt of the diplomacy load. Do I think our current administration is doing a good job? Of course not. But I think Americans do care and do try.

And specifically given the large amount of Korean immigrants in America, I think we will be handling this with the right amount of concern.

[Changleen]

Hey, relax Francis, no need to make it personal.Sorry I don't mean to, just venting - I find it a bit rich to hear 'America' and 'diplomacy' in the same sentance recently, for the reasons you cited.Most countries are happy to hang back and let the USA take the brunt of the diplomacy load. Do I think our current administration is doing a good job? Of course not. But I think Americans do care and do try.I don't think that countries 'hang back' - If you actually take a look at what's going on over here and in Australia for example there has been much toing and froing of ambassadors, pronouncements and the like, which are simply completely ignored by the American press. And like I said in this particular situation NZ is in a good position to help facilitating Sino-US discussion which both sides may not want trumpeting to the press.

Here, I found Helen's bit for you:

NZ joins condemnation of N Korean missile tests
06 July 2006
By DAN EATON

New Zealand has joined a growing international chorus condemning North Korean missile tests, saying they are provocative and fuel concerns about the Stalinist regime's nuclear programme.

Prime Minister Helen Clark said yesterday that after North Korea fired seven missiles that the tests "struck at the heart of the world's ability to control nuclear proliferation".

Clark rubbished North Korean claims the tests were a defensive action against threats from the United States.

Foreign Minister Winston Peters said the tests showed "wanton disregard for the warnings issued by the international community", elevating concern North Korea had "chosen a path towards denunciation as a rogue state".

New Zealand is one of a small number of countries that maintain diplomatic relations with North Korea. The missile tests follow a visit to North Korea's capital, Pyongyang, last week by newly appointed ambassador Jane Coombs, who is based in South Korea.

She presented her credentials to President Kim Jong-Il and lodged New Zealand's concern over North Korea's nuclear programme, urging it to return to talks.

The tests included one long-range Taepodong missile, which reportedly failed shortly after firing, and several short-range missiles that landed in the Sea of Japan.

"North Korea was advised clearly that missile testing would be seen as a provocative step," Peters said.

He said the tests could have a destabilising influence in the region.

The South Koreans have put their army on a higher level of alert. There are four New Zealand soldiers serving as monitors on the border that separates North and South.

"These tests fuel concern about North Korea's behaviour, adding to ongoing worry about its nuclear programmes and dismay that it has not rejoined the six-party talks," Peters said.

[sanjuro]

I didn't realize NZ and NK had diplo relations. That's a good thing.

You need to send Galadriel to work it out with Il-Jong, and that doesn't work, send Karl Urban to mess him up....

[Demomonkey]

Substanially more.

Poor misguided soul.....

The only thing they care about is money and power. Everything (including you and me) else is just a resource to achieve more.

[Demomonkey]

"I also do not take well to outside criticism of American politics."

Welcome to the new Global Arena.

[fluff]

Hey, relax Francis, no need to make it personal.

I think you can guess while I am somewhat liberal and extremely anti-Bush, that I also do not take well to outside criticism of American politics.

Most countries are happy to hang back and let the USA take the brunt of the diplomacy load. Do I think our current administration is doing a good job? Of course not. But I think Americans do care and do try.

And specifically given the large amount of Korean immigrants in America, I think we will be handling this with the right amount of concern.
Just to be clear, are you saying that just because Changleen is not a US citizen his criticism is invalid? Are you also saying that you would defend policies that you do not agree with?

[SDH]

Your record of 'taking care of it' is fvcking sh1t, frankly. Maybe you shoud just STFU. It's be a lot more helpful.

hahahahahahahahahaha...................

Good thing we did not STFU in the mid to late 40's or you would have been saying STFU in Japanese symbols.................


If NZ want to do some good, have China sit the side lines, then the US can give the OK for the South to invade, opening new markets for China and the West. S.Korea will be one country again bolstering the economic environment in that region of the world pushing Asian markets higher and manufactured goods lower.......

[sanjuro]

Just to be clear, are you saying that just because Changleen is not a US citizen his criticism is invalid? Are you also saying that you would defend policies that you do not agree with?
I don't care for criticism from residents of countries that don't get involved to the level we get involved. Countries like France take a back seat to us but are glad to sell weapons to the other side and complain about our policies at the same time.

New Zealand is probably a more egalitarian state than the United States. We certainly caused our own headaches in the Middle East, and you could argue that we helped to create Il-Jong Kim (although I think Stalin had more to do with the Korean War than Truman).

But New Zealand does not bear the responsiblity we do in world politics or economy. So yes, our opinion matters more than a Kiwi.

[Changleen]

hahahahahahahahahaha...................

Good thing we did not STFU in the mid to late 40's or you would have been saying STFU in Japanese symbols.................


If NZ want to do some good, have China sit the side lines, then the US can give the OK for the South to invade, opening new markets for China and the West. S.Korea will be one country again bolstering the economic environment in that region of the world pushing Asian markets higher and manufactured goods lower.......If we want to do good, you want us to enable a a war against one of the largest standing armies in the world? You're fvcking special mate. Idiot. Frankly I'd rather be speaking Japanese than associate with people like you who obviously have the foresight of a dead rat.

[ALEXIS_DH]

Why the fvck do people have to frame EVERYTHING in terms of conflict? It's so fvcking childish!

thats evolution baby...

[sanjuro]

If we want to do good, you want us to enable a a war against one of the largest standing armies in the world? You're fvcking special mate. Idiot. Frankly I'd rather be speaking Japanese than associate with people like you who obviously have the foresight of a dead rat.
Is the reason why you speak English is because John Wayne liberated New Zealand from the Nipponese...

[DaveW]

No it would be because Chang is english. ;)

[sanjuro]

I knew that. Tom Hanks saved the brits...

[ThePriceSeliger]

I can't read the whole thread because I'm out of time and need to go, but, are these launched at the U.S. or are they "tests"? Are they capable of reaching?

[stevew]

I can't read the whole thread because I'm out of time and need to go, but, are these launched at the U.S. or are they "tests"? Are they capable of reaching?
Bottlerockets have gone higher than their missles so far....

[Changleen]

I can't read the whole thread because I'm out of time and need to go, but, are these launched at the U.S. or are they "tests"? Are they capable of reaching?Most of them can reach Japan (US Bases) and South Korea (US Bases) but the new one, which is the one which fell appart in the air, is theoretically capable of reaching the very edge of Alaska. :eek: :rofl:

[DaveW]

Most of them can reach Japan (US Bases) and South Korea (US Bases) but the new one, which is the one which fell appart in the air, is theoretically capable of reaching the very edge of Alaska. :eek: :rofl:


Err it has a 10,500 mile range.... hawaii for sure.... probably pacflt HQ as main target.

Aparently from it's trajectory angle they worked out it was aimed just north of hawaii.


*edit* dammit I can't find the article I found that aiming point bit in so I'll retract that bit for now

[sanjuro]

I haven't started building my bomb shelter under San Francisco, but the way great glorious Bush thinks, he would let Il-Jong bomb Seoul first, then attack second.

[binary visions]

Aparently from it's trajectory angle they worked out it was aimed just north of hawaii.


*edit* dammit I can't find the article I found that aiming point bit in so I'll retract that bit for now
I was watching CNN when they said that, so at least you're not the only crazy one if it's not true ;)

[rockwool]

Strange thing in my eyes are the reactons of you guys.
It's like "it's ok for us to have the bomb but not for them". It's not the bomb that is the issue but WHO has it.. The comparisson to hunters that like to kill animals and do find it a great sport to do so, but would get the fvck out of Sherwood if mr Moose had a rifle comes to my mind.
Equality is good as long as no biafra tries to sceem on my riches..

[BurlyShirley]

Strange thing in my eyes are the reactons of you guys.
It's like "it's ok for us to have the bomb but not for them". It's not the bomb that is the issue but WHO has it.. The comparisson to hunters that like to kill animals and do find it a great sport to do so, but would get the fvck out of Sherwood if mr Moose had a rifle comes to my mind.
Equality is good as long as no biafra tries to sceem on my riches..

This is a valid argument, but like most things, it can't be summed up so quickly. It's not just the US that doesnt want NK to have "the bomb" it's the ENTIRE WORLD. And for good reason. For one, the less nukes the better, but also Kim Jong Il is a known dickbag. I cant think of a good reason that the world has allowed him to stay in power and keep his people starved, etc. Allowing him nukes will only WORSEN their situation.

[Changleen]

This is a valid argument, but like most things, it can't be summed up so quickly. It's not just the US that doesnt want NK to have "the bomb" it's the ENTIRE WORLD. And for good reason. For one, the less nukes the better, but also Kim Jong Il is a known dickbag. I cant think of a good reason that the world has allowed him to stay in power and keep his people starved, etc. Allowing him nukes will only WORSEN their situation.Uh, You know he already has them right?

[DaveW]

That's why they picked on iraqi instead..... they know dammn well that lil kimi has the correct lack of marbles to use them if attacked.

[SDH]

If we want to do good, you want us to enable a a war against one of the largest standing armies in the world? You're fvcking special mate. Idiot. Frankly I'd rather be speaking Japanese than associate with people like you who obviously have the foresight of a dead rat.


You rather speak Japanese? Do your self a favor and ask someone from Nanking (sp) China what it was like and how fun it was to speak Japanese. Or better yet, the people from Burma. And I am a idoit? If you are over the age of 18 you would have been shot in the street like most of the population of that age. Keep studying in school, man.

Largest standing army? How is that defined? A bunch of conscripts (that do not want to be there) holding a gun in a fox hole? North Korea niether has the food, logistics and infrastructure to carry out a succesful campaign against the South. The only thing it does have going for it is big bro China. Barring that, South Korea with its industrial might would steam roll the North. This ain't dad's 1957 anymore.

[BRRAAAP!!]

Largest standing army? How is that defined? A bunch of conscripts (that do not want to be there) holding a gun in a fox hole? North Korea niether has the food, logistics and infrastructure to carry out a succesful campaign against the South. The only thing it does have going for it is big bro China. Barring that, South Korea with its industrial might would steam roll the North. This ain't dad's 1957 anymore.

What the hell are you on about? North Korean soldiers are highly motivated and loyal to Kim Jong Il. Remember these people are taught that they have it better than the rest of the world. Brainwashing can work wonders if conducted in the right closed environment. In a case of conflict, South Korea would face devastation just as the North.

[SDH]

What the hell are you on about? North Korean soldiers are highly motivated and loyal to Kim Jong Il. Remember these people are taught that they have it better than the rest of the world. Brainwashing can work wonders if conducted in the right closed environment. In a case of conflict, South Korea would face devastation just as the North.


Motivation goes quickly when bellies go hungry. Motivated? Loyal? what are your sources for this? This is what was said of the Republican guard in the early 90's. Cut the food and the communication and they were giving up in droves..........

Well fed and well supported armies are the most effective. History have taught us that, there are many many cases. Industry and ability to supply is what wins wars. If the North was left to fend for itself, it would crumble quickly. As far as nukes, yup they have them but if used it would spell disaster for the North also. Deploying nukes on the same land mass as yourself, is cutting your own wrist. Nuclear winter effect would also effect the North if the South was bombed.

PS
The US on the 38th is not for keeping the North out but from keeping the South from going in.....................

[BRRAAAP!!]

Motivation goes quickly when bellies go hungry. Motivated? Loyal? what are your sources for this? This is what was said of the Republican guard in the early 90's. Cut the food and the communication and they were giving up in droves..........

Well fed and well supported armies are the most effective. History have taught us that, there are many many cases. Industry and ability to supply is what wins wars. If the North was left to fend for itself, it would crumble quickly. As far as nukes, yup they have them but if used it would spell disaster for the North also. Deploying nukes on the same land mass as yourself, is cutting your own wrist. Nuclear winter effect would also effect the North if the South was bombed.

PS
The US on the 38th is not for keeping the North out but from keeping the South from going in.....................

Well first of all NK is not Iraq?

For the motivation/loyal part, it was mostly speculation. There has also been a few incidents that might showcase some motivation though. "In September 1996, a North Korean submarine got stranded at Kangrung, South Korea, and its crew abandoned the ship. Eleven of the crew committed suicide and the rest fought to the last man except one who was captured. In June 1998, another submarine got caught in fishing nets at Sokcho and its crew killed themselves. Such is the fighting spirit of North Korean soldiers"

To be clear I never hinted that NK would win any wars.

[Changleen]

You rather speak Japanese? Do your self a favor and ask someone from Nanking (sp) China what it was like and how fun it was to speak Japanese. Or better yet, the people from Burma. And I am a idoit? If you are over the age of 18 you would have been shot in the street like most of the population of that age. Keep studying in school, man.

Largest standing army? How is that defined? A bunch of conscripts (that do not want to be there) holding a gun in a fox hole? North Korea niether has the food, logistics and infrastructure to carry out a succesful campaign against the South. The only thing it does have going for it is big bro China. Barring that, South Korea with its industrial might would steam roll the North. This ain't dad's 1957 anymore.Yeah, I know all about WW2, thanks for the non-history lesson. I seem to remember reading a news report somewhat more recently about an invading army who have been shooting innocent people in the street and torturing people. Who was that again?

My point still stands. You want NZ to 'do good' by enabling a huge war against a country with a massive standing army and nukes? Sounds like you come from the George Bush school of dumb to me homes. Do you understand what you're saying? :rolleyes:

[Silver]

You rather speak Japanese? Do your self a favor and ask someone from Nanking (sp) China what it was like and how fun it was to speak Japanese. Or better yet, the people from Burma. And I am a idoit? If you are over the age of 18 you would have been shot in the street like most of the population of that age. Keep studying in school, man.

Largest standing army? How is that defined? A bunch of conscripts (that do not want to be there) holding a gun in a fox hole? North Korea niether has the food, logistics and infrastructure to carry out a succesful campaign against the South. The only thing it does have going for it is big bro China. Barring that, South Korea with its industrial might would steam roll the North. This ain't dad's 1957 anymore.

I'm starting to understand how Bush got elected twice now...

[SDH]

Yeah, I know all about WW2, thanks for the non-history lesson. I seem to remember reading a news report somewhat more recently about an invading army who have been shooting innocent people in the street and torturing people. Who was that again?

My point still stands. You want NZ to 'do good' by enabling a huge war against a country with a massive standing army and nukes? Sounds like you come from the George Bush school of dumb to me homes. Do you understand what you're saying? :rolleyes:

Nanking makes Iraq, look like frat party.

Massive standing army? That is funny there is a huge popular effort in the south to reunify with the north. They are protesting that the US get off the 38th. So I guess the amazingly successful and economicall weathly South want to give up the good life and become communist so they could be one country again or do you think they want to unify the north by some other means...........Doesn't seem like the south is that scared

BTW, What made it a non-history lesson?

[SDH]

I'm starting to understand how Bush got elected twice now...

How so?
The aforementioned info wrt Nanking can be confirmed in any college level history book.

As far as the South's ability to be successful in a conflict with the North based on its Economic standing, just go visit your local college professor in Global economics.

[sanjuro]

Yeah, I know all about WW2, thanks for the non-history lesson. I seem to remember reading a news report somewhat more recently about an invading army who have been shooting innocent people in the street and torturing people. Who was that again?

My point still stands. You want NZ to 'do good' by enabling a huge war against a country with a massive standing army and nukes? Sounds like you come from the George Bush school of dumb to me homes. Do you understand what you're saying? :rolleyes:

Ask the North or South Koreans how they were treated during Japanese occupation. I still like to think our atrocities were abberations, not authorized.

I personally believe the NK army would fold if there was an US-SK joint force, but I could be wrong, and who knows what Il-Jong might do in return.

But another Korean War would destablization the entire region, so I hope something can be done peacefully.

[Silver]

How so?
The aforementioned info wrt Nanking can be confirmed in any college level history book.

As far as the South's ability to be successful in a conflict with the North based on its Economic standing, just go visit your local college professor in Global economics.

Yes, we all know about Nanking. Thanks. I heard Hitler killed a few Jews too, you might want to dig into that for your next scoop.

College profs in economics may not be aware that Seoul is within range of North Korean artillery. Unless the US wants to drop multiple nuclear weapons 30 miles away from Seoul, it's going to be tricky to prevent the North Koreans from popping a few hundred thousand shells into the middle of 20 million South Koreans.

Long term, would North Korea win a war? Nope. Would they be able to inflict massive civilian casualties on the South. Oh yeah...

[rockwool]

This is a valid argument, but like most things, it can't be summed up so quickly. It's not just the US that doesnt want NK to have "the bomb" it's the ENTIRE WORLD. And for good reason. For one, the less nukes the better, but also Kim Jong Il is a known dickbag. I cant think of a good reason that the world has allowed him to stay in power and keep his people starved, etc. Allowing him nukes will only WORSEN their situation.


KIm Jong Il a dickbag? I won't argue with that but I also see just another "leader" who's more interested in keeping the power than he is in his people. No difference from Göran Persson, prime minister of Sweden or GWB. That power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely is well known. But NK doesen't have military presence in 120-130 countries, USA does. I don't belive NK/KJIl wants to conquer the conquerer, but only to be left to rule over his little bit.
All the wrong doings he lets his people go through are secondary to what the western world, with the US as it's head and role model society, does to all poorer countries. If I want to clean my house after a fat party I don't start with correcting the paintings from hanging slightly of balance.

Less nukes the better? I agree but even though I don't like or want it, I have to admit that any asshole country in the world has the right to have them.

This whole nuclear thing started in the -90ies with that NK needed to generate more electrical power. NK wanted to build nuclear power plants but the US didn't want them to develop that type of technology so they offered NK to build them heavy-water powerplants (as I remember it) which NK agreed to pay for. Construction of the fundaments started to stop after just a while. Several years passed while NK was trying to get the US to stick with what had been promised (and payed for?) but nothing happened. Finaly they started to build a nulcear powerplant. Immediately the western press started reporting it as NK had started building a-bombs..
Its clear that if Clinton and GWB cared about the starving people of NK they would have shared their heavy-water powerplant know how.

About NK creating a-bombs, we have to remember that GWB said he wanted to create small tactical a-bombs to be used with todays field artillery!!!
I fear GWB a lot more to start using nukes than anybody else.
USA has the history of doing it. But more importantly still justify their bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki...

[rockwool]

College profs in economics may not be aware that Seoul is within range of North Korean artillery. Unless the US wants to drop multiple nuclear weapons 30 miles away from Seoul, it's going to be tricky to prevent the North Koreans from popping a few hundred thousand shells into the middle of 20 million South Koreans.

Long term, would North Korea win a war? Nope. Would they be able to inflict massive civilian casualties on the South. Oh yeah...


Why do people presume that NK wants to expand/occupy SK, just like we were led to belive by the same powers today and before, that Soviet wanted to occupy western europe/the world?
If we know they don't stand a chanse, surley they must to?

[sanjuro]

Interesting article: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=17&ItemID=4992

"South Korean people today are more fearful of the United States than of North Korea. "

[SDH]

College profs in economics may not be aware that Seoul is within range of North Korean artillery. Unless the US wants to drop multiple nuclear weapons 30 miles away from Seoul, it's going to be tricky to prevent the North Koreans from popping a few hundred thousand shells into the middle of 20 million South Koreans.

Long term, would North Korea win a war? Nope. Would they be able to inflict massive civilian casualties on the South. Oh yeah...

Agreed, but I would speculate with the advanced pre-strike capability of the South, I would think all immediate threats to SK population would be neutralized within the first few days (ala 6 day war in the middle east). Our patroit batteries would take care of the mobile stuff. People killed yup, there always is unfortunately, but probably not on a mass scale. I still believe he would not use nukes on SK (US/Europe maybe) just because of the close proxity of the environmental disaster which he could not escape.

I speculate the only reason he is making a big deal of his "capability" is because he is scared. Scared that China is starting to follow in the foot steps of the West, USSR is gone and SK is probably knocking on the annexing (sp) door for cheap labor. Kinda like when you see a mtn. lion, you are scared ****less, but try to make yourself appear bigger so he will not mess with you.

On to another subject, I wonder what we are waiting for, we should start invading Cuba, I heard they have great beaches. That should get the big C's panities in a uproar while he studies Japanese.....LOL

[DaveW]

On to another subject, I wonder what we are waiting for, we should start invading Cuba, I heard they have great beaches. That should get the big C's panities in a uproar while he studies Japanese.....LOL


What is your countrys problem with Castro?
He is after all a much more benevelent dictator than many of the ones America installs and/or support around the world such as Uzbekistan.

[Silver]

What is your countrys problem with Castro?
He is after all a much more benevelent dictator than many of the ones America installs and/or support around the world such as Uzbekistan.

That's the problem. He's not our guy.

[rockwool]

Interesting article: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=17&ItemID=4992

"South Korean people today are more fearful of the United States than of North Korea. "

That article really gave some light to this subject. Thank you!

[rockwool]

Copied from the link Sanjuro posted:

"Under the 1994 agreement known as the "Agreed Framework," North Korea was to freeze its graphite nuclear reactor program, and to hold its 8,000-odd rods of plutonium-containing waste from the reactors in specially constructed ponds, under sealed IAEA camera scrutiny, in return for two electricity-generating light-water reactors to be built by 2003, and an interim annual supply of 3.3 million barrels of oil. The United States and North Korea agreed to "move towards full normalization of political and economic relations" while the US was to provide "formal assurances to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea against the threat or use of nuclear weapons.""

Seems like they want to live in warm houses and under no nuclear threat. Who doesen't?


"The present crisis was initiated in October 2002 by US Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly's claim that North Korea had admitted to a secret program of uranium enrichment. Allegation and denial brought the Framework to collapse. What actually was said to Kelly, and whether he understood it correctly or not, remains controversial. Pyongyang denies any admission. China, Russia and South Korea doubt that North Korea has the kind of program it is supposed to have admitted. It is hard to imagine any possible motive for North Korea to have said what Kelly alleges was said."

The neo cons lying again? I don't belive it. I thought they was all for love, peace, unity and having fun.


"No serious analyst has ever suggested that North Korea was preparing to attack or invade any of its neighbors or constituted any threat to regional peace except if faced with threats to its own survival. North Korea is best seen as a porcupine, stiffening its bristles and looking fierce to try to repel attack, rather than a tiger rapaciously seeking prey."

But they look scary though; big wide jaws and teeth, ears sweapt back and angry looking eyes..


"6. Are the North Koreans paranoid? And, if so, why?

If paranoia means unreasonable, groundless, or grossly exaggerated fear, then the word is inappropriate to describe North Korea, whose fears can hardly be described as unreasonable."
"While in Washington the North Korean "nuclear threat" has been an issue for the past decade, Pyongyang has faced the US nuclear threat for the past half century. North Korea has lived under it for longer than any other nation. During the Korean War it escaped nuclear annihilation by the barest of margins. General MacArthur, his successor as Commander-in-Chief, General Ridgway, presidents Truman and Eisenhower, and the Joint Chiefs, all at one or other stage favored or recommended using nuclear weapons against North Korea."
"Then, just four years after the Armistice and in obvious breach of it, the US introduced nuclear artillery shells, mines, and missiles into Korea, keeping them there, adjacent to the Demilitarized Zone, designed to intimidate the non-nuclear North, for 35 years till they were finally withdrawn at the insistence of the South Korean government. Even withdrawal did little to diminish the threat as perceived by Pyongyang since the rehearsals for a long-range nuclear strike on North Korea continued. Under the "Agreed Framework," however, Clinton finally lifted the threat, pledging no first-use of nuclear weapons against a non-nuclear state. That reprieve was in turn revoked under Bush and North Korea was specifically included on the "Nuclear Target List.""

I'm glad i didn't grow up under that kind of threat.


North Korea's perception of its role in the 20th century (and the 21st to date) is that of victim, suffering from a series of colossal and uncompensated injustices at the hands of colonial Japan and the US. Its demands for lifting of the threat against it and for recognition and normalization may be voiced in strident tones, but that is best seen as a measure of its anxiety. What the world has never recognized is the core of legitimacy in Pyongyang's cry for settlement: of the bitter legacy of colonialism (from Japan) and of nuclear intimidation, economic embargo and diplomatic isolation (by the US).

"No wonder they are starving when there's been an economic embargo on them. Who can prosper in isolation?

[rockwool]

more copied:

"China: China has the closest of historic ties with North Korea and is today both the source of most of the supplies of food and energy on which North Korea depends and the most likely possible model of how it might develop in the future; in the North Korean present, Chinese see their own past. The Chinese role in brokering a resolution of the problem of North Korea has steadily grown, at the US request."

Can't bash China for that.


"American intelligence first estimated back in 1993 (possibly earlier) that North Korea had "one, or possibly two" nuclear weapons. Like the intelligence on which the US in 2003 went to war against Iraq, it seems to have been false and/or subject to political manipulation. By 2003, the US had shifted to adopt the South Korean, Russian and Chinese view that North Korea actually did not have any nuclear weapons. It then argued that it had the ingredients (plutonium and uranium), and the will and intent, to develop them."

"Objective assessment is complicated by the fact that both US intelligence and Pyongyang share an interest, for different reasons, in having the world think North Korea possesses both nuclear weapons and a delivery system, the US in order to justify its hegemonic role in East Asia, and North Korea in order to deter US attack."

"9. What is the Bush administration currently trying to achieve with respect to North Korea?

The use of the singular begs a major question: does the Bush administration have a policy or is North Korea the axis of contest between rival factions within it. Jack Pritchard, till his resignation in August 2003 a Senior North Korean specialist at the State Department, says of American policy (New York Times, 21 January 2004): "At best it could be described only as amateurish. At worst, it is a failed attempt to lure American allies down a path that is not designed to solve the crisis diplomatically but to lead to the failure and ultimate isolation of North Korea in hopes that its government will collapse." No outside critic could match the severity of this assessment by someone who has been deeply involved in policy implementation."

"10. How would you assess the Bush administration's strategy?

Two major contradictions affect US North Korea policy, nuclear on the one hand, strategic on the other.

The US wants to maintain nuclear-based hegemony over the earth, and indeed over the universe, while blocking any new countries from joining the existing nuclear club. The non-proliferation regime to which it signed up in 1968 was a deal by which those countries that did not possess nuclear weapons pledged not to take steps to get them, while those with weapons pledged not to threaten non-possessors and to take steps to eliminate their existing arsenals and move to comprehensive nuclear disarmament. Until the nuclear club powers take seriously those obligations, their insistence on others fulfilling their obligations is mere hypocrisy. If security can indeed only be guaranteed by possession of nuclear weapons, then there can be no complaint at North Korea. If that is not the case, then the possessing powers must take steps towards elimination of all nuclear weapons."

Can I hear a WORD on that one?


"The second contradiction is between short and long-term US objectives. Regime change in North Korea would remove a thorn in the US side, but at the same time it might serve to undermine US regional hegemony. George W. Bush and Kim Jong Il stand in a paradoxically symbiotic relationship. Bush's loathing for Kim, and his nuclear threat, maintains the isolation and siege conditions that allow Kim to legitimize his rule, mobilize nationalist support, and crush opposition. Bush, for his part, rules and reigns over Northeast Asia because Japan and South Korea feel compelled by the North Korean threat to seek American protection and to shelter under Washington's "nuclear umbrella.""

I feel like a baptist listening to the good reverend on a beautiful Sunday mornin'.


"he framework of US military presence in East Asia is justified in Seoul and Tokyo by the threat from Pyongyang. Without the "North Korean threat" -- whether resolved peacefully or otherwise -- Washington strategists would have to think of some new justification for the bases in Japan and South Korea, and for the massively expensive anti-missile system soon to be constructed in the region. Some might want to declare China the real enemy, but a military alliance with the United States whose orientation was containment and hostility towards China would find little support in contemporary South Korea and Japan. Paradoxically, if the US does accomplish what it wants in North Korea -- regime change -- it could find that its own domination of the region is undermined."

Aaaaaaaamen brother!


"North Korea's neighbors have their reasons for wanting to incorporate North Korea into the emerging Asian community and should be encouraged to take the key role in doing so on their own terms. To accomplish this, the price North Korea seeks for abandoning its nuclear weapons program is not unreasonable: an end to nuclear intimidation, diplomatic normalization and removal of economic sanctions."

"Above all, a resolution of the problem will depend on seeing it not in the narrow frame of North Korean threat but in the broad context of history. That will require taking Seoul seriously and with respect, rather than as a recalcitrant and scarcely reliable ally because it no longer follows Washington uncritically. North Korea is essentially a Korean problem, and South Korea must assume a central role in negotiations and plans for the future because its people must after all live with their northern compatriots."

"11. How does the U.S.-NK impasse impact on issues of peace and security in Northeast Asia? Are there regional approaches to any of the issues that could prove fruitful in resolving the issues both of U.S.-NK conflict and moving toward a reduction of regional tensions?

North Korea is a structural pivot of contemporary US hegemony in East Asia. Washington's post-Cold War vision asks Japan and Korea, in effect, to accept a future world predicated on continued fear and hostility to North Korea, such as to require their continuing military, political, and economic dependence on the United States."


Facts, reason and contemplation doesn't sell as good as fear...And mainstream media is business, just like war.

Wanna get rich? Buy stocks in a US arms manufacturing company!
The church of Sweden did it..

[BurlyShirley]

Well folks, it appears we have a Swedish Changleen on our hands :rolleyes:

perfect.

Rock, NOBODY want NK to have Nukeready ICBMs. Why do you suppose that is?

[fluff]

Well folks, it appears we have a Swedish Changleen on our hands :rolleyes:

perfect.

Rock, NOBODY want NK to have Nukeready ICBMs. Why do you suppose that is?
Have you read the above? If it is correct then it appears that they might not have and in order to prevent them getting any all the US has to do is to start talking to them.

[rockwool]

Well folks, it appears we have a Swedish Changleen on our hands :rolleyes:

perfect.

Rock, NOBODY want NK to have Nukeready ICBMs. Why do you suppose that is?

Hope that is something good...

Can't speculate why that is. Maybe the politicians don't read Z-net and are as uninformed/missinformed as I was before I read that interview...
I know I posted a lot, but still its a lot less than the original text. Hope people will read it.

Dont trust politicians. Ever.

"We a know how we and dem a go work it out" -Bob Marley