Hope Mono Mini: weak sauce, help.

[sam_little]

I know these are intended to be XC brakes. However, they came on a used bike that I mostly run DH with and I CANNOT get these brakes to lock up. Fade is a bit of a problem, but I am most dissapointed with the generally low power. My arms are tired as hell by the end of a few runs from squeezing the levers with all my might. On the bright side, this is improving my crimping capacity :thumb: .

So, what am I doing wrong? I bled the brakes with DOT 4.1 as noted in the manual (several times, lever pump method), put on new Hope-brand pads, broke in the new pads, and they still feel like arse. I have a larger floating rotor in the front and smaller floating rotor in the rear. Am I simply doomed due to their being intended for XC, or am I missing something?

Anyone use these brakes with good results? Anyone have the same frustrations and finally move up?

[freakrock]

.... these are intended to be XC brakes.......
what else should we say?

[DHS]

actually is 5.1 and the new mini monos are by far as good as the old mini's. those were MUCH stronger. i really doubt you'll ever get them to work any good for DH use.

[sam_little]

what else should we say?

As noted above: "I CANNOT get these brakes to lock up."

XC or not, I should at least be able to prove my worth with the neighborhood kids by skidding a fishtail now and again. I can't, though, as these things are so low on power. I don't know what kind of XC market they are intended for, but not being able to stop on a dime on a light(ish) bike on a mellow(ish) trail is absurd.

[sam_little]

actually is 5.1 and the new mini monos are by far as good as the old mini's. those were MUCH stronger. i really doubt you'll ever get them to work any good for DH use.

So would going 5.1 over the 4.1 that I've been using make a difference?

[dante]

bigger rotors. there have been a few 230mm rotors floating around, I'm sure that that'll do the trick. :oink:

[Dogboy]

If it makes you feel any better I've had exactly the same experience with my Mono Minis. They are sooo weak. I bought them for my trail bike and they are now in a box in the bike room. They were properly bled and felt nice and crisp, but had almost zero power.

[General Lee]

have you cleaned to rotors? even the smallest trace of grease or brake fluid can ruin your brakes. try cleaning the pads/rotors with some rubbing alcohol, dry it all off, and pour some water on everything then go out and drag the brakes.

i ran minis on my 4x bike w/ 6" rotors and they were super strong. no reason why they shouldn't work for you. my guess is something is contaminated or the calipers/rotors are not alined properly. DOT 5.1, 4, or 3 will all work fine in hope brakes, no need to change. also, make sure you pushed the pistons back into the calipers when you bled the brakes, if there is air in the caliper the brakes won't work well.

hope brakes are some of the strongest out there, i'd have to attribute lack of performance to improper setup or contamination.

[Dartman]

Get some Hayes Mag lever brakes.

My Hope Mini's (orig, not mono) sucked so bad I gave them to BigMike. :sneaky:

They would heat up and the levers would go to the bar, no brakes on long downhills! When I did get stopped (using the arboreal method) I had to cool 'em off with water to get them to work again. I was thinking of rigging up an emergency syringe/hose.

Mike

[sam_little]

have you cleaned to rotors?

Yes, brake-clean. Nothing on the rotors and I installed new pads in one of the calipers (after cleaning my rotors) and it was still screwed. I also pushed by pistons back, but I have a question about this. When I pushed one side in, the other would pop out slightly. Should I have the system open at the reservoir prior to "bottoming out" the pistons in the caliper?

Thanks.

[sam_little]

Get some Hayes Mag lever brakes.

My Hope Mini's (orig, not mono) sucked so bad I gave them to BigMike. :sneaky:

They would heat up and the levers would go to the bar, no brakes on long downhills! When I did get stopped (using the arboreal method) I had to cool 'em off with water to get them to work again. I was thinking of rigging up an emergency syringe/hose.

Mike

If someone is suggesting Hayes Mags over these then I know I'm screwed.

[bdamschen]

Also not sure if you're supposed to use brake cleaner.

I found the paperwork that came with my hayes nines the other day that said not to use brake cleaner, just isotropic alcohol only. Dunno if that's true or what, but it's all I've ever used to clean brakes.

[Secret Squirrel]

Yes, brake-clean. Nothing on the rotors and I installed new pads in one of the calipers (after cleaning my rotors) and it was still screwed. I also pushed by pistons back, but I have a question about this. When I pushed one side in, the other would pop out slightly. Should I have the system open at the reservoir prior to "bottoming out" the pistons in the caliper?

Thanks.
Yes.

If someone is suggesting Hayes Mags over these then I know I'm screwed
Nah... Just replace the levers is what he was saying...

[Secret Squirrel]

Also not sure if you're supposed to use brake cleaner.

I found the paperwork that came with my hayes nines the other day that said not to use brake cleaner, just isotropic alcohol only. Dunno if that's true or what, but it's all I've ever used to clean brakes.
What that means is that you're not supposed to use brake cleaner on the caliper itself...Pads and rotors are fair game for that stuff...

[fiddy_ryder]

ive heard to switch the pads to sintered (i think) should help the power a bit.

[sam_little]

Yes.

Perhaps this is the problem then. I'll try and report.

[Dartman]

Nah... Just replace the levers is what he was saying...

No. I'm saying to replace the whole brake system. I have four pair of Hayes Mags and am quite happy with them.

Mike

[SirChomps-a-Lot]

They come stock with sintered pads, which blow.

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145271&highlight=organic+sintered

Get yo self some organic pads:

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=1778&category=27

Power is right with the old-stlye minis. I DH with mine, no problems (I used to run the old-stlye M4s, which were on par with magura gustavs). Also they narrowly saved me from getting hit by a bus yesterday.

I also run 203 front 183 rear rotors. I have also run 183/163 which is only a little bit less power. The limiting factor in my braking is traction, not brake power.

ALSO, mine don't squeal at all. They make a tiny bit of a reassuring "FFFFffffff" sound.

Hope is stocking long-wearing pads in the mono-minis because they are targeted at weenies that would complain if their pads lasted any less than a year. I have 3 months of riding 3x per week in my organic pads and they look to be at about 3/4 life.

[davep]

They are not setup properly. If my 4 y/o mono mini's can have me doing stoppies (see 200+#), then yours are not blead right or contaminated.

I agree 100%. It sounds to me like you have air in the system somewhere, although it could be a pad issue as well. If the lever is very firm but you have no power(pad friction) then there is an issue with the pads and or rotors. You can buy higher friction pads like EBC reds but in general this is a trade off in longevity, regardless of the pad, there should be decent power. Try cleaning the rotors and soaking the pads in rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol from the drug store. The pads will need to be re-bed to the rotors but atleast this will eliminate the pads/rotors as a potential cause.

Next, fluid type will make a small difference as to boiling point, but anything that is NOT dot 5 will work (use 3,4,or 5.1). There are several places that a small amount of air can get trapped in the system and they all need to be eliminated for best function. It is exactly the same as working on any car, but just in case, here is what I do...

Pull off the top caps and remove about half of the fluid in the resevoir, but NEVER let the level get below the little shiny aluminum plate in the resi. over the piston assy.
Remove wheel and pads and push the pistons carefuly back into the caliper. This will fill up the resevior and it will need to be watched unless you dont care about the mess.
remove about half of the old fluid again and then fill the res with NEW fluid from a sealed container.
Now this is easier with two people but can be done with one... pull and hold lever firmly. crack the bleed screw (with a hose on it to a safe place). tighten bleed screw. release the lever. check fluid and top off if needed (repeat ~ 10 times). If the fluid gets below the little shiny plate, grab another beer and start over!

little fun tips..
You are trying to get ALL of the air out and it can be tricky. I tap the lines and caliper constanty with the handle of a screwdriver to knock loose any little bubles.
Fluid velocity is your friend, the firmer you can squeeze the lever and quicker you crack the bleed screw, the faster the fluid can escape, 'flushing' out any air. There can also be small bubbles that get stuck on/at the piston in the resevior. to get these out, sqeeze the lever firmly (with the bleed screw closed) and then let it snap to return(repeat several times), jarring any bubbles loose.
top off the resevior and you are done. Seems like a lot of work all written out but it is less than a 5min job once you get it down.

lastly. since hopes are an open system, air can enter the system if the bike is turned upside down. I would not recomend prolonged inversion and when you do invert the bike, do not pull the levers as this will push air into the lines.

[partsbara]

I agree 100%. It sounds to me like you have air in the system somewhere, although it could be a pad issue as well. If the lever is very firm but you have no power(pad friction) then there is an issue with the pads and or rotors. You can buy higher friction pads like EBC reds but in general this is a trade off in longevity, regardless of the pad, there should be decent power. Try cleaning the rotors and soaking the pads in rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol from the drug store. The pads will need to be re-bed to the rotors but atleast this will eliminate the pads/rotors as a potential cause.

Next, fluid type will make a small difference as to boiling point, but anything that is NOT dot 5 will work (use 3,4,or 5.1). There are several places that a small amount of air can get trapped in the system and they all need to be eliminated for best function. It is exactly the same as working on any car, but just in case, here is what I do...

Pull off the top caps and remove about half of the fluid in the resevoir, but NEVER let the level get below the little shiny aluminum plate in the resi. over the piston assy.
Remove wheel and pads and push the pistons carefuly back into the caliper. This will fill up the resevior and it will need to be watched unless you dont care about the mess.
remove about half of the old fluid again and then fill the res with NEW fluid from a sealed container.
Now this is easier with two people but can be done with one... pull and hold lever firmly. crack the bleed screw (with a hose on it to a safe place). tighten bleed screw. release the lever. check fluid and top off if needed (repeat ~ 10 times). If the fluid gets below the little shiny plate, grab another beer and start over!

little fun tips..
You are trying to get ALL of the air out and it can be tricky. I tap the lines and caliper constanty with the handle of a screwdriver to knock loose any little bubles.
Fluid velocity is your friend, the firmer you can squeeze the lever and quicker you crack the bleed screw, the faster the fluid can escape, 'flushing' out any air. There can also be small bubbles that get stuck on/at the piston in the resevior. to get these out, sqeeze the lever firmly (with the bleed screw closed) and then let it snap to return(repeat several times), jarring any bubbles loose.
top off the resevior and you are done. Seems like a lot of work all written out but it is less than a 5min job once you get it down.

lastly. since hopes are an open system, air can enter the system if the bike is turned upside down. I would not recomend prolonged inversion and when you do invert the bike, do not pull the levers as this will push air into the lines.

:stupid: good info here

[SBDownhillRacer]

also check the lines, because i had a problem with one of my lines on my mags where the inner line broke which caused fluid to escape to the outer part inside the hose, which let the fluid go to the caliper but with very little pressure.

[Changleen]

All I can do is agree with some of the above. My friend's 6" Mono Mini's are way powerful, at least as good as my 8" Hayes. You can lock them with one finger without much effort. There's something wrong with yours.

[jvnixon]

my mono mini's (new style) lock up with ease on my xc rig.

[DHDror]

I agree 100%. It sounds to me like you have air in the system somewhere, although it could be a pad issue as well. If the lever is very firm but you have no power(pad friction) then there is an issue with the pads and or rotors. You can buy higher friction pads like EBC reds but in general this is a trade off in longevity, regardless of the pad, there should be decent power. Try cleaning the rotors and soaking the pads in rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol from the drug store. The pads will need to be re-bed to the rotors but atleast this will eliminate the pads/rotors as a potential cause.

Next, fluid type will make a small difference as to boiling point, but anything that is NOT dot 5 will work (use 3,4,or 5.1). There are several places that a small amount of air can get trapped in the system and they all need to be eliminated for best function. It is exactly the same as working on any car, but just in case, here is what I do...

Pull off the top caps and remove about half of the fluid in the resevoir, but NEVER let the level get below the little shiny aluminum plate in the resi. over the piston assy.
Remove wheel and pads and push the pistons carefuly back into the caliper. This will fill up the resevior and it will need to be watched unless you dont care about the mess.
remove about half of the old fluid again and then fill the res with NEW fluid from a sealed container.
Now this is easier with two people but can be done with one... pull and hold lever firmly. crack the bleed screw (with a hose on it to a safe place). tighten bleed screw. release the lever. check fluid and top off if needed (repeat ~ 10 times). If the fluid gets below the little shiny plate, grab another beer and start over!

little fun tips..
You are trying to get ALL of the air out and it can be tricky. I tap the lines and caliper constanty with the handle of a screwdriver to knock loose any little bubles.
Fluid velocity is your friend, the firmer you can squeeze the lever and quicker you crack the bleed screw, the faster the fluid can escape, 'flushing' out any air. There can also be small bubbles that get stuck on/at the piston in the resevior. to get these out, sqeeze the lever firmly (with the bleed screw closed) and then let it snap to return(repeat several times), jarring any bubbles loose.
top off the resevior and you are done. Seems like a lot of work all written out but it is less than a 5min job once you get it down.

lastly. since hopes are an open system, air can enter the system if the bike is turned upside down. I would not recomend prolonged inversion and when you do invert the bike, do not pull the levers as this will push air into the lines.


just a little thing to add - when closing the top, let the excess brake fluid push all the air out by fitting the top diagonally first (reservoir leveled) and then slowly tighten the 2 screws holding a rag under the reservoir to minimize the mess.
This will push most air out of the reservoir and minimize the risk of small bubbles entering the cylinder when the bike is inverted or laying in the bottom of the creek after a crash...

[sama1ter]

I had the same problem. Switched them out, and sold them on a bike, best thing i've done.

shimano xt 4pots or saints is the only brake i'll buy now.
(after ridden juicy7s, 5s,hayes mag dh, mono minis, saints, deore(damn good brake for hte money), new xts(which is saint) and old xts)

[sam_little]

All good advice. I never knew that inverting the brakes could be a problem; I store my brakes hanging upside down. I also haven't taken the care described above to ensure a complete lack of air bubbles. Report to come.

[big-ted]

Using dot 5.1 will help with your fading issues due to the higher boiling point. Also, in additio to the bleeding tips given above, put the bike on a workstand such that you can angle it so the bleed nipple is higher than the lever. Now when you bleed it through your forcing any air in the system UP, which is the direction it naturally tends to go, so it comes out FAR easier. Lastly, do NOT use automotive brake/clutcher cleaner on your brakes. These are oil based, and leave an oil residue on the rotors that easily burns off on car brakes, but MTB rotors simply don't get hot enough. Best thing to use is methylated spirits, acetone, or just a concentrated solution of water and washing up liquid. With these in mind, my old style minis and M4s have given me nothing but powerful, consistent braking for the last four years.

Hope this helps.

[DHDror]

Using dot 5.1 will help with your fading issues due to the higher boiling point. Also, in additio to the bleeding tips given above, put the bike on a workstand such that you can angle it so the bleed nipple is higher than the lever. Now when you bleed it through your forcing any air in the system UP, which is the direction it naturally tends to go, so it comes out FAR easier. Lastly, do NOT use automotive brake/clutcher cleaner on your brakes. These are oil based, and leave an oil residue on the rotors that easily burns off on car brakes, but MTB rotors simply don't get hot enough. Best thing to use is methylated spirits, acetone, or just a concentrated solution of water and washing up liquid. With these in mind, my old style minis and M4s have given me nothing but powerful, consistent braking for the last four years.

Hope this helps.


Well , there are 3 mistakes here -

1 - Raising the nipples above the lever hight is useless because the fluid route inside the caliper is always down first through one half of the caliper and then up again through the nipple half of the caliper.
Correct bleeding should cause the trapped bubbles to shrink under the pressure and flow out with the fluid - just keep pushing a large amount of fluid through the system during the bleeding and always open the nipple when the lever is pressed.

2 - Carburator and throtle body cleaners do leave oil residue on the rotors and pads so never use these.
Automotive clutch/brake cleaners never leave oil residue on the rotors and pads but might flush some muck into the pads and might cause them to glaze under heat . some pads will lose power because of this type of contamination (EBC usualy wont...) .

3 - You mentioned "washing up liquid" , well many domestic liquids are scented or added with silicone to enhance shiny surfaces - these additives also contaminates the pads - you are much better off with the automotive clutch/brake cleaners...

and one more thing - DOT 5.1 has a higher boiling point than DOT 4 but also absorbs water much faster and needs to be changed more frequently - never leave a 1 year old DOT 5.1 in there...
I believe a few months old DOT 5.1 will performe very similar to DOT 4 because the water content in it will lower it's boiling point anyway.
DOT 4 can be found in any gas station and lasts much longer. simple...

Hope this helps...