legalizing trails

[thePINKster]

i'm going to write a controversial paper on how we should legalize more trails in the norcal area to get more kids off the streets, and onto the mountains.

later, this might be taken to the walnut creek city counsel along with a petition to legalize trails, preferrably in walnut creek open space, what all of you know as limeridge (AKA: mach 5, or that cool concord trail in hellagreasy2) . i am well aware that this has been a mission that many have tried and failed, but my grandmother who works with the law vowed to me to help with this... and once she gets determined, she wont get out of your face until she wins...

so, i'm trying to make my paper as persuasive as possible, and i need your help!!!! :help: any input or arguments that you have supporting this issue would be VERY appreciated.
THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!:thumb:

[HarryCallahan]

Pinkster,
I'm going to throw out an idea for you, but you'll have to do the research. I would suggest hooking up with a good librarian at a university library.
Parks have to be managed to protect them for the long terms, but also to reflect the changing use demands of the people they serve. As an example, I remember reading that when it was developed, games were not allowed on the grass in New York's Central Park, as it was not seen as an appropriate use relative to the intent of the park. Obviously, times change.

[sanjuro]

Since your paper directly affects me :), I suggest writing about cases where bikers and their riding organizations has improved their local trail systems.

The main reason why bikes are banned from certain areas (besides the sticks up people's asses) is the belief that riding destroys the trails. If you could cite examples where trail building help to improve the overall environment, it would be fruitful.

I would contact IMBA for more information, and feel free to PM with any questions.

[freerider858]

IMBA is definatley a first resource. I went before my town to propose bike trails and had spent a couple of hours jotting down ideas and statistics from the IMBA site. Give it a look it should help. Good luck

[OGRipper]

Sanjuro is right, trail damage is the most often cited reason I hear. I suggest you find evidence that biking doesn't do any more damage than other trail users. (Try IMBA's website and go from there.) That evidence, combined with the fact that cyclists are often more willing than others to help with trail maintenance, could mean that the net environmental effect is minimal.

My theory is that the aggregate impact on trails increased when bikes arrived, and the finger is being unfairly pointed at the newcomers who have just as much right to be on the trails as others. When bikes arrived there were suddenly lots more people out there, so the overall impact increased. But the environmental impact would not be much different if there were suddenly twice as many equestrians, or hikers, or whatever.

But IMO the trail damage argument is a smokescreen. The real issue is that due to irresponsible use, bikes are incompatible with other users on crowded trails. Coming around a blind turn at Mach 10 can result in people getting hurt. And like it or not, even when we are in control we scare people when we blow by them. Bad attitudes don't help. Maintaining the limited access we have and going for more depends on responsible use and education, probably more than reducing the environmental impact.

[thePINKster]

Since your paper directly affects me :), I suggest writing about cases where bikers and their riding organizations has improved their local trail systems.

i was hoping if any of you had local stories to tell that i can maybe cite in my paper..

thanks for the suggestion about visitin and contacting IMBA. great idea,i dunno why i didnt think of it.

thanks for all the help, and hopefully this will be the start of something great!

[HarryCallahan]

OG Ripper made some good points. There are some studies that have been done on the relative impacts of bike tires, hooves, and horses, including a very neutral one done by the parks department in New Zealand some years ago. Overall, the studies show comparable wear and tear from each user group, with each group being bad in some situations and Ok in others. And volume of use is defintely a factor. Wear and tear is not a sign that the use is destructive, it is a sign that more folks of whatever group are using the trail and trail maintenance needs to be stepped up. As an analogy, if your local park empties trash cans once aweek during the winter, that's probably fine. If they try and do the same thing in the summer and the can overflows, it is because park users are littering or more people are using the park and the can needs to be emptied more often?

OGripper also said this:But IMO the trail damage argument is a smokescreen. The real issue is that due to irresponsible use, bikes are incompatible with other users on crowded trails. Coming around a blind turn at Mach 10 can result in people getting hurt. And like it or not, even when we are in control we scare people when we blow by them. Bad attitudes don't help. Maintaining the limited access we have and going for more depends on responsible use and education, probably more than reducing the environmental impact.

This is also a key point. I can't say it better.

[OGRipper]

Overall, the studies show comparable wear and tear from each user group, with each group being bad in some situations and Ok in others. And volume of use is defintely a factor. Wear and tear is not a sign that the use is destructive, it is a sign that more folks of whatever group are using the trail and trail maintenance needs to be stepped up.

Yeah. And unfortunately mountain bikes started getting popular at a time when outdoor recreation of all kinds started to explode. It is easy to manipulate statistics to show a correlation between the rise of mountain bikes and increased wear and tear, but the causal connection is less clear.

[justsomeguy]

But IMO the trail damage argument is a smokescreen. The real issue is that due to irresponsible use, bikes are incompatible with other users on crowded trails. Coming around a blind turn at Mach 10 can result in people getting hurt. And like it or not, even when we are in control we scare people when we blow by them. Bad attitudes don't help. Maintaining the limited access we have and going for more depends on responsible use and education, probably more than reducing the environmental impact.

True, but another ongoing problem at Lime Ridge is the tools who think that digging/building ON THE EXISTING HIKING trails is a smart thing.

"Back in the day" before Lime Ridge was made into a formal park pretty much anything was possible out there. With Crystal Ranch et al adding thousands of homes right next door and the land being aggresively managed, a few punks making micro doubles on hiking trails gets a bunch of notice.

Good luck with your paper but realistically you have zero chance of opening those hiking trails to mountain bikes, despite having Super Law Granny.

If you want to ride Mach 5 and others just pick the right time of the week, and day. It's not that hard.

[thePINKster]

If you want to ride Mach 5 and others just pick the right time of the week, and day. It's not that hard.

ya, thats what i've been doing. that's what everyone's been doing. i just figured that if i have to write this paper, i might as well knock out a few other things with it by legalizing a trail or two.

also, i was thinking of talking to the clayton city counsel about this issue in mitchell canyon, because not only do i have "super law granny" but i also know the city manager of clayton pretty darn well...

and as far as this being ultimately impossible, your right, this might be a total complete failure... but i'd rather do it and give it a fair chance, especially since i've been soo blessed to be given great resources that would otherwise go to waste if i didnt utilize them.

but thanks for the input and we'll see what happens

[Brian HCM#1]

The problem is not Walnut Creek, it's East Bay Regional Parks. They are the ones who make the local trail rules, and it has been a loosing battle for years. The main reason for no single track in the Bay Area is the Hippies (Sierra Club). Every council meeting that happens around here for MTBing always has some hippies trying to stop our fun. Several years ago they were going to open ALL single track over at Morgan Territory in Livermore since it was seldom used, and I mean seldom. As soon as the Sierra club got word of that, they started hiking there all the time and put a halt to them opening it up for MTB fun.

[justsomeguy]

The problem is not Walnut Creek, it's East Bay Regional Parks.

The "problem" at Lime Ridge is Walnut Creek. It's a city park and the EBRPD has nothing to do with managing the park.

also, i was thinking of talking to the clayton city counsel about this issue in mitchell canyon, because not only do i have "super law granny" but i also know the city manager of clayton pretty darn well...

WTF is "this issue in mitchell canyon"??

If you're talking about singletrack access in Mitchell Canyon, you'll be wanting to have Super Law Granny talk to the folks at the State Parks, since Mitchell Canyon is part of Mount Diablo State Park and "knowing" the City Manager of Clayton will mean exactly squat.

[stratguy1618]

The "problem" at Lime Ridge is Walnut Creek. It's a city park and the EBRPD has nothing to do with managing the park.



WTF is "this issue in mitchell canyon"??

If you're talking about singletrack access in Mitchell Canyon, you'll be wanting to have Super Law Granny talk to the folks at the State Parks, since Mitchell Canyon is part of Mount Diablo State Park and "knowing" the City Manager of Clayton will mean exactly squat.
Just let her get her **** done and quit bitching, its ****ing annyoning. At least shes doing something productive, and for a good cause. In this thread all you have done is be negative, and this could directly effect you so post something productive or post nothing at all. If you think I didnt do anything I have already helped her find a couple different studies on hiker/biker trail damage.

[justsomeguy]

Just let her get her **** done and quit bitching, its ****ing annyoning.

If stating facts is bitching, then so be it. The OP is utterly confused about the land access issues.

If you find the facts to be annoying then I would suggest that you stop tormenting yourself and quit reading the thread.

At least shes doing something productive, and for a good cause.

If it's productive, what kind of results has she produced?

In this thread all you have done is be negative, and this could directly effect you so post something productive or post nothing at all.

Since when is providing facts, based upon direct experience with the areas (both physical and legal) in question, being negative?

I disagree, this can't directly affect me, since some kid writing a paper and petitioning for MTB access to hiking trails in Lime Ridge and siccing Super Law Granny on the Clayton City Manager to open up singletrack access in Mitchell Canyon has exactly a ZERO chance of success. Just the facts.

"so post something productive or post nothing at all"

Fortunately, confused people like you don't get to decide what I post. You do make me laugh though.

If you think I didnt do anything I have already helped her find a couple different studies on hiker/biker trail damage.

Wow, that's amazing!

Totally inconsequential but your Googling skills are quite impressive.

[Brian HCM#1]

Just let her get her **** done and quit bitching, its ****ing annyoning. At least shes doing something productive, and for a good cause. In this thread all you have done is be negative, and this could directly effect you so post something productive or post nothing at all. If you think I didnt do anything I have already helped her find a couple different studies on hiker/biker trail damage.Look kid, you're young. Which basically means us old folks have been fighting with local parks & EBRPD since you were a sperm swimming around in your dads sack. We have tried & tried to convince them about trail damage etc. We live in a hippie infested area which means loosing battles every time. As much as would love to see them open up legal single track in this area, it's very unlikely to ever happen. I'm not saying don't fight it, definitely go for it. However don't expect them to budge on anything.

[thePINKster]

If it's productive, what kind of results has she produced?

wow.. how encouraging.

then I would suggest that you stop tormenting yourself and quit reading the thread.

and if you find my paper so annoying, then why dont you quit posting in this thread and tormenting yourself

Fortunately, confused people like you don't get to decide what I post. You do make me laugh though

what makes me laugh is your attacking kids half your age online...

jeeze, go outside and ride your bike.. you're pmsing more than any girl i've seen

i will tell you one thing that i've noticed you're good at... figuring out how to get absolutely nothing done.

[Brian HCM#1]

wow.. how encouraging.



and if you find my paper so annoying, then why dont you quit posting in this thread and tormenting yourself



what makes me laugh is your attacking kids half your age online...

jeeze, go outside and ride your bike.. you're pmsing more than any girl i've seen

i will tell you one thing that i've noticed you're good at... figuring out how to get absolutely nothing done.Like stated before, unfortunately it's a loosing battle. If your Grandma has some pull go for it, she may be the best shot outside the 30-50 year old crowd. Unfortunately the younger crowd won't have a chance and never will.(please don't take it personally)

[thePINKster]

Like stated before, unfortunately it's a loosing battle. If your Grandma has some pull go for it, she may be the best shot outside the 30-50 year old crowd. Unfortunately the younger crowd won't have a chance and never will.(please don't take it personally)

i understand that the city wont listen to a bunch of teenagers complaining.. thats why i'm getting help from older people... i dont take that personal at all.

it has been a losing battle, and might continue to be, but it only takes one fight for it to change.

"They always say time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol

[sanjuro]

I guarantee nothing will happen if no one tries. Good luck.

[justsomeguy]

and if you find my paper so annoying, then why dont you quit posting in this thread and tormenting yourself

You are once again very confused.

Your "paper" doesn't annoy me. It makes me chuckle.

You're confusing being annoyed with being amused at your naivete.

what makes me laugh is your attacking kids half your age online...

So because you're clueless kids you should get some kind of free pass to be idiots? Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way, even if you claim to have a Super Law Granny.

jeeze, go outside and ride your bike.. you're pmsing more than any girl i've seen

That's just more validation of your cluelessness kid. Because I think your idiotic fantasies are goofy I don't ride? Like that Brian guy wrote, I've been riding mountain bikes since long before your parents decided to bump uglies and plop you out.

Maybe you need to get together with Super Law Granny and have her assess the situation?

I ride 5-6 days a week child. Anytime you and your slobbering boy toy want to try and hang on a ride just let me know. I'm sure it will be entertaining to see you "younguns'" try to actually pedal your bikes for more the 30 minutes at a time...

i will tell you one thing that i've noticed you're good at... figuring out how to get absolutely nothing done.

As if we needed further evidence of how absolutely out of touch you are with the access issues in the East Bay...

Please, tell eveyone how you have a SUper Law Granny and connections to open singletrack access in Mitchell Canyon and Lime Ridge...

[sanjuro]

You are once again very confused.

Your "paper" doesn't annoy me. It makes me chuckle.

You're confusing being annoyed with being amused at your naivete.

So because you're clueless kids you should get some kind of free pass to be idiots? Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way, even if you claim to have a Super Law Granny.

That's just more validation of your cluelessness kid. Because I think your idiotic fantasies are goofy I don't ride? Like that Brian guy wrote, I've been riding mountain bikes since long before your parents decided to bump uglies and plop you out.

Maybe you need to get together with Super Law Granny and have her assess the situation?

I ride 5-6 days a week child. Anytime you and your slobbering boy toy want to try and hang on a ride just let me know. I'm sure it will be entertaining to see you "younguns'" try to actually pedal your bikes for more the 30 minutes at a time...

As if we needed further evidence of how absolutely out of touch you are with the access issues in the East Bay...

Please, tell eveyone how you have a SUper Law Granny and connections to open singletrack access in Mitchell Canyon and Lime Ridge...
Give it a break. A 15 year old beat your ass, and all you can do is cry louder...

[thePINKster]

You are once again very confused.

Your "paper" doesn't annoy me. It makes me chuckle.

You're confusing being annoyed with being amused at your naivete.

So because you're clueless kids you should get some kind of free pass to be idiots? Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way, even if you claim to have a Super Law Granny.

That's just more validation of your cluelessness kid. Because I think your idiotic fantasies are goofy I don't ride? Like that Brian guy wrote, I've been riding mountain bikes since long before your parents decided to bump uglies and plop you out.

Maybe you need to get together with Super Law Granny and have her assess the situation?

I ride 5-6 days a week child. Anytime you and your slobbering boy toy want to try and hang on a ride just let me know. I'm sure it will be entertaining to see you "younguns'" try to actually pedal your bikes for more the 30 minutes at a time...

As if we needed further evidence of how absolutely out of touch you are with the access issues in the East Bay...

Please, tell eveyone how you have a SUper Law Granny and connections to open singletrack access in Mitchell Canyon and Lime Ridge...

you sound awfully annoyed...

you are putting in a lot of time and effort. its funny how you have to validate yourself to some "kids" at how amazing you are at bicycling..

and if you're sooo old, well move over grandpa.. a bunch of kids are gonna start passing you up on the trails..

and "Super Law Granny" has assessed the situation. she said that you "are a narrow minded, under educated, uninformed biased idiot... and those are nice words"

[justsomeguy]

you sound awfully annoyed...

you are putting in a lot of time and effort. its funny how you have to validate yourself to some "kids" at how amazing you are at bicycling..

and if you're sooo old, well move over grandpa.. a bunch of kids are gonna start passing you up on the trails..

and "Super Law Granny" has assessed the situation. she said that you "are a narrow minded, under educated, uninformed biased idiot... and those are nice words"

Once again, you're confusing being annoyed at laughing at your naivete.

"a lot of time and effort?????????????"

A few minutes sharing facts with you is "a lot of time and effort"?? Think before posting please!

If your Super Law Granny truly said that (which you and I know didn't happen) then she is even more confused than you are.

p.s I don't care if a bunch of kids, or adults, or circus midgets, pass me on the trail, as long as they have at least half a clue about what is going on with local trail access issues. You have a LONG way to go untill you reach that point, based upon your incredibly misinformed posts. You need to get together with Super Law Granny and do some serious studying, pronto!!

[thePINKster]

justsomeguy: you're wasting my time.. so i'm gonna be the mature one to stop all this mumbo jumbo...

btw, i found this inspirational quote and thought of you :

"Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it. " - malcom x

....... too bad you werent man enough.

[sanjuro]

Think before posting please!

Please.

[justsomeguy]

justsomeguy: you're wasting my time..

Yet you still reply...

So, if indeed you're being so productive, as has been claimed, what results have you produced again?

You claim to have some kind of special understanding/connection to local land issues yet you have shown that you are particularly uniformed about the realitiy of MTB access to Lime Ridge and Mitchell Canyon.

Old business but what exactly do you think Super Law Granny can do about your mysterious "issue in mitchell canyon"???????

[stratguy1618]

That's just more validation of your cluelessness kid. Because I think your idiotic fantasies are goofy I don't ride?



I don't think she said you didn't ride, she was just giving you a suggestion of something better you could do with your time than rant at 16 y/o's on the internet. Though nothing may happen, no change ever happens without someone try to change it. How do you think skaters got skateparks to pop up all over the place?

[SPrider]

you guys are all stupid for arguing over the keyboard, dont get so emotional over stupid people, dont say anything if your gonna be negative, go do something else, i dont wanna hear any gayness anymore

[pbr]

justsomeguy: you're wasting my time.. so i'm gonna be the mature one to stop all this mumbo jumbo...

....... too bad you werent man enough.

Good luck with the paper, and the fight. As for the "grouchy old guy," I'll put money on you schooling him on a ride.:)

[Brian HCM#1]

How do you think skaters got skateparks to pop up all over the place?There is a BIG difference. There was nowhere to ride skateboards besides on the street or in front of your house. There are PLENTY of places to ride MTB's off road. However it's all fire trails & no single track. The Park's will say "You have places to ride off road, just stay off the single track".

[keen]

This thread has turned from a positive gesture into a childish finger pointing session. What's wrong with someone taking a stance for mt. bikers ? Do those haters think she will crash and burn and make things worse or fall on deaf ears ? If these internal mt. bike squablles reflect our skills to organize and approach no wonder our voices go unheard - hell I don't want to read this post anymore.

[Brian HCM#1]

So how may council meetings have you sat in on, or voiced your opinion in one? I'm not talking about signing a little petition at the LBS ether. Actually getting up and speaking to the people who make these decisions on trail usage? I have for several years only to lose every time.

[sanjuro]

So how may council meetings have you sat in on, or voiced your opinion in one? I'm not talking about signing a little petition at the LBS ether. Actually getting up and speaking to the people who make these decisions on trail usage? I have for several years only to lose every time.
I acknowledge your work Brian, and it is appreciated. However, public appeal has less to do with the message and more with the messenger. Possibly a girl and her grandmother might have more appeal than from another dude mtn biking.

Actually, all this negative talk might be doing her a favor. I find when the more people doubt me, the harder I work.

[justsomeguy]

However, public appeal has less to do with the message and more with the messenger. Possibly a girl and her grandmother might have more appeal than from another dude mtn biking.

Based upon those comments it's obvious that you haven't been directly invovled in land access issues.

It doesn't come down to how appealing the messengers are.

Unfortunately the issues are much, much more complex than that.

[OGRipper]

Classic stuff, this.

It will be a huge challenge and you may not get anywhere but frustrated...but you know what? Try anyway. Just be respectful and it can't hurt. IMO the more people working for these changes, the better.

Maybe you, Brian, and JSG can get together for a strategy session and discuss what approaches have failed miserably and what you might do differently...you know, work together to take advantage of disgruntled experience and youthful enthusiasm...yeah right!!!

(Joke of the day? HAHAHA, I kill me!!) :rofl: :rofl:

[justsomeguy]

Maybe you, Brian, and JSG can get together for a strategy session and discuss what approaches have failed miserably and what you might do differently...you know, work together to take advantage of disgruntled experience and youthful enthusiasm...yeah right!!!

Well, the assassination approach is just about the only one that hasn't been used yet. Maybe it's time to recruit the right dupe?

You might be on to something there.

[sanjuro]

Based upon those comments it's obvious that you haven't been directly invovled in land access issues.

It doesn't come down to how appealing the messengers are.

Unfortunately the issues are much, much more complex than that.
Hmmm. I have never sat in a city or state council meeting. Members of my family involved in California politics do regularly though.

I am somewhat familiar with trail access in California, being a member of IMBA and the Sierra Buttes Trail Stewardship. And I have dug plenty of trail.

I don't think a school report is going to magically open Back Creek and Side-O. But the incredible negativity you showed at a girl's attempt, wrongheaded or not, to improve trail access is pretty stunning.

BTW, JustSomeGuy, what have you done to help the mtn bike community?

[justsomeguy]

BTW, JustSomeGuy, what have you done to help the mtn bike community?

It depends upon how you define "help."

In the obvious definition I have spent many, many, many hours at city meetings and as part of the Trails Working Group (serving on two committees) that was instrumental in protecting Joaquin Miller Park from the HOHAs and preserving mountain bike access.

I've done a boat load of trail maintenance (most recently six hours in 40 degree rain clearing brush at Oat Hill) and lead dozens of organized mountain bike rides that have introduced many riders to new riding areas/opportunities.

I helped to spread the message of the imminent threat to the Fruita Bookcliffs trail system to thousands of folks who would have been otherwise unaware of the problems.

I have given thousands of riders a virtual taste of many great trails and inspired them to ride/stoked their interest (if you can believe their emails).

I have helped a great number of riders during the winters endure hours on their trainers (again, if you can believe their emails).

I have celebrated the the folks who lay new trail and in doing so shown the BLM, various State's Parks folks, etc. the positive impacts that mountain bikers can have on the recreational options.

Does that answer your question or should I keep going?

[sanjuro]

It depends upon how you define "help."

In the obvious definition I have spent many, many, many hours at city meetings and as part of the Trails Working Group (serving on two committees) that was instrumental in protecting Joaquin Miller Park from the HOHAs and preserving mountain bike access.

I've done a boat load of trail maintenance (most recently six hours in 40 degree rain clearing brush at Oat Hill) and lead dozens of organized mountain bike rides that have introduced many riders to new riding areas/opportunities.

I helped to spread the message of the imminent threat to the Fruita Bookcliffs trail system to thousands of folks who would have been otherwise unaware of the problems.

I have given thousands of riders a virtual taste of many great trails and inspired them to ride/stoked their interest (if you can believe their emails).

I have helped a great number of riders during the winters endure hours on their trainers (again, if you can believe their emails).

I have celebrated the the folks who lay new trail and in doing so shown the BLM, various State's Parks folks, etc. the positive impacts that mountain bikers can have on the recreational options.

Does that answer your question or should I keep going?

And do you enjoy quashing the attempts of a young girl who is trying to get involved?

I think you need take a step back and stop patting yourself on the back, and look at all this.

It sounds like you have done almost much as I have for riders, and you should be happy a teenager is trying to help out, rather than flipping out at an attempt to learn more about working with the system.

Maybe nothing comes out of her paper. Maybe all this does is get her to come out for trail maintenance. Maybe this inspires her to become an advocate for trail access.

On the other hand:

"So because you're clueless kids you should get some kind of free pass to be idiots?"

"Well, the assassination approach is just about the only one that hasn't been used yet. Maybe it's time to recruit the right dupe?"

"Once again, you're confusing being annoyed at laughing at your naivete."

These are the kind of statements you're proud of?

[justsomeguy]

And do you enjoy quashing the attempts of a young girl who is trying to get involved?

Why do you equate stating facts with quashing? Facts are facts.

I think you need take a step back and stop patting yourself on the back,

Huh? You're the one that wanted to know what I had done. I haven't ever offered that kind of information, crowed about it, or done anything similar so how is simply answering your question "patting myself on the back"?

It sounds like you have done almost much as I have for riders,

Okay, that truly made me laugh out loud, considering that you haven't done any "heavy lifting" (as in the truly tedious, often boring, usually frustrating work of sitting across the table from folks, for hours and hours, who want nothing more than to ban bikes from the trails), among other things.

and you should be happy a teenager is trying to help out, rather than flipping out at an attempt to learn more about working with the system.

Damn, that's funny as well. You're confusing "flipping out" with beiing amused.

"So because you're clueless kids you should get some kind of free pass to be idiots?"

"Well, the assassination approach is just about the only one that hasn't been used yet. Maybe it's time to recruit the right dupe?"

"Once again, you're confusing being annoyed at laughing at your naivete."

These are the kind of statements you're proud of?

Taken in context, they are just fine.

The fact that your panties are bunched by a joke (assassination...) speaks volumes about you.

[Brian HCM#1]

Hmmm. I have never sat in a city or state council meeting. Members of my family involved in California politics do regularly though.
You should sit through one. Just as you think you're getting someplace with the board, the Sierra Club and equestrian parade start in. Right there every damn time, you see all the members on the board nodding aknowleging what they are saying. After their little slide show presentation, we the MTB community is shot down once again. I've been riding MTB since 1991 so I've been there done that when it comes to the trail fight. The best way to win this battle is get some younger hipper blood on the council board, and push that way. As long as it's the same group, it ain't gonna work.

[sanjuro]

Why do you equate stating facts with quashing? Facts are facts.


I am going to step away from the personal side of this. Let me ask you a very simple question.

This girl wants to write a paper for school about opening trail access. Besides the fact that your vanity is insulted by her naivete, what is the harm?

[justsomeguy]

Besides the fact that your vanity is insulted by her naivete,

Are you truly this dense in real life? I merely continue to be amused by her, and now your, naivete.

Amused does not equal "insulted" to anyone with a brain.

what is the harm?

That's a red herring.

I never claimed that it was harmful nor do I think it is harmful.

[pbr]

The Sierra Club bans together to keep bikes and cyclist off the good trails(legally at least), and mountain bikers bitch and whine and discourage others from trying to do anything about it.

That about sums it up.

[justsomeguy]

The Sierra Club bans together to keep bikes and cyclist off the good trails(legally at least), and mountain bikers bitch and whine and discourage others from trying to do anything about it.

That about sums it up.

If you think that this discussion and what you perceive to be "bitching and whining" is the sum of mountain biker's efforts to keep trails open then you are incredibly clueless.

[OGRipper]

The Sierra Club bans together to keep bikes and cyclist off the good trails(legally at least), and mountain bikers bitch and whine and discourage others from trying to do anything about it.

That about sums it up.


Nothing sums up a complex issue like a couple of gross generalizations. :rolleyes:

[thePINKster]

If you think that this discussion and what you perceive to be "bitching and whining" is the sum of mountain biker's efforts to keep trails open then you are incredibly clueless.

notice how everyone else seems to be clueless but yourself...

i would ask that you take a step back and look at what everyone is saying, but i know you would fire back with some kind of insult, and i'm tired of them.

My paper was meant to be a positive, good thing that could be sent in to the city.. it addresses more issues than erosion, and building unauthorized stunts....

it also addresses facts that while childhood obesity is a huge problem, they continue closing trails... and that mountainbiking is a HUGE anti-drug to kids, that i know from personal experience.

justsomeguy: i know you aren't going to understand what i've been trying to say, but i hope someday you get a slap in the face and understand it...

my paper is in its final editing phase. i got an offer from norcamba, and i will send in the final draft to them. i will also be stopping in bikeshops all around the bay area to send out petitions, and if you are interested in the cause, i would suggest going to a local bike shop and asking about this.


all this talk about sitting thru council meetings has me interested... does anyone know the times and dates... i will personally sit thru one and gain as much as i can.

i already said in my first post that this might fail, and i'm open to accept defeat, but i am going to try..

[black noise]

This thread makes me cry.

Great job Chrissie for doing something about legalizing trails, you're doing a lot more for biking than a lot of us here can say.

Even though you're so confused, naive, young, and clueless. :rolleyes:

[Brian HCM#1]

all this talk about sitting thru council meetings has me interested... does anyone know the times and dates... i will personally sit thru one and gain as much as i can.
Pay attention to flyer's at the local trails or bike shops. They can be more painful to sit through than a root canal. You just sit back and start to cringe when the hippies start their little speech:redhot:

[justsomeguy]

justsomeguy: i know you aren't going to understand what i've been trying to say, but i hope someday you get a slap in the face and understand it...

I understand perfectly well what you're "trying to say." It just that what you're "trying to say" is based upon a number of misunderstandings about the trails in question, the reasons for their closure (s), how likely it is for a Super Law Granny to get them opened, etc.

Noting the rise in obesity and drug use are fine subjects for an argumentative paper but have absolutely no bearing on getting the trails in question opened to bikes, in the real world

Again, just the facts.

[thePINKster]

Noting the rise in obesity and drug use are fine subjects for an argumentative paper but have absolutely no bearing on getting the trails in question opened to bikes, in the real world.

well it IS an argumentative paper... and i figured noting that taking away trails does hinder the youth's activities that could replace the bad habits of drugs, over-eating, or lethargic tv watching. when you weigh out more facts, it does take a toll. they are also issues that non-mountainbikers would pay attention to.

if i want to convince people, i need to understand my audience and what they will benefit from it. "just the facts"

[freerider858]

I dont want to repeat everythingt that everybody said but I feel the need to say something. Im 16 as well and have been active in the cycling world only for around 3 years. Im a member of IMBA. Ive done trail work, sat through 8 hours of trail building classes, gone to comitte meetings. Ive tried hard. I even am considering using my Eagle Project to benefit the biking community. I live in a place where there are thousands of singletrack trails just sitting there...no horses ride them but still I cant ride them. I decided to try to change this. I met the trail comitte head and spent weeks scouting trails, taking pictures, gathering statistics, hours after school writing up arguments...the whole nine yards. When I approached the comittee, I realized that they were all equestrians. This is where you get screwed over. There very conservsative, close-minded, and old. Sorry for the stereotype...they treated me like a kid,and even though I am one, they didnt respect me. After my disasster I gave up and started to poach trails. Then I got a ticket. Chrissie you will probably run into some problems but I admire what you are doing. There are always hardships but they exist so we can overcome them. I know how the system works from the little experience I have had so I understand where Just Some Guy and Brian HCM1 are coming from but I think that we should encourage any action taken to promote the sport. I agree, that this faction between riders doesnt help the disoragnized image of mountain bikers. If we whant to make an impact we need to unite and show people that we can come together as a community. Chrissie, if you need any help Id love to help any way I can just pm me or something. Good luck.

[Xvert]

I fully encourage and wish you good luck on your efforts. I'll be on the look out for your petitions and flyers. Too bad some of the "older" generation members (of which I not proudly am a part off) are so negative. I hope they don't have children. I encourge my kids to try anything that is worthwhile, no matter how seemingly impossible.

BTW, I coach for the Clayton YMCA...mentioned mountainbiking and BOOM, next season now has a MTB camp.

Good luck and keep us (interested) posted.

[thePINKster]

thanks so much for the support guys!

sorry, but the petitions are not finished yet. they will be delayed to be put into bikeshops until next week. Sorry, but finals have sort of taken over my life this week, and pressure from the rents to do well on em.

i will announce when petitions are officially in bike shops. i will also have one on hand to have friends sign.

again, does anyone know when the city counsel meets????

[thePINKster]

BTW, I coach for the Clayton YMCA...mentioned mountainbiking and BOOM, next season now has a MTB camp

awesome!!! the clayton YMCA will have a mtb camp?!?! this is great news.

do they need any volunteers? i'd be happy to help. and how young can the campers be? i'd like to let my little brother participate in something like that.

[Xvert]

https://www.memberst.com/programs/SessionDetails.aspx?id=A776974F-DC30-42F6-B35A-C5E69C2C9D70&sid=359018


Program Name: CCY - Specialty Camps
Session Name: Mt. Diablo Mountain Bike Adventure Camp
Description: Calling all mountain bike enthusiasts! This one-day camp is for you. The camp will begin with a one hour class filled with great tips to help master the mountain and will include a segment on nutrition. Following the class, campers will be taken on a fun and exciting ride on the trails of Mount Diablo. The only thing that campers are required to bring is a mountain bike and helmet that fits and an attitude that fits.
Requirements: For children entering sixth through eighth grade.
Registration Dates: 02/15/06 to 07/17/06
Session Dates: 07/22/06 to 07/22/06
Location: Mt. Diablo
Days of the Week: Saturday
Session Times: 9:00 am - 2:00 pm
Instructor Name: Delise Young
Instructor Phone: 925-889-1625


Ask for Delise Young, program director if you can volunteer. It's only XC though but that may change if we can open up Mach 5 and more local single track.

[Brian HCM#1]

well it IS an argumentative paper... and i figured noting that taking away trails does hinder the youth's activities that could replace the bad habits of drugs, over-eating, or lethargic tv watching. when you weigh out more facts, it does take a toll. they are also issues that non-mountainbikers would pay attention to.

if i want to convince people, i need to understand my audience and what they will benefit from it. "just the facts"Got to remember their huge comeback. We encourage people to get out & ride & exercise!!!!!!!!



Just not on the singletrack

[justsomeguy]

Too bad some of the "older" generation members (of which I not proudly am a part off) are so negative.

Again, why must stating facts be negative?

I hope they don't have children.

Wow. Because someone is realistic, knowledgable and involved with local trail access issues and states the facts, you "hope they don't have children"?

Of course I have children. If you've ever gone out for lunch or dinner in Clayton you've probably seen them at Ed's, Skip's, La Veranda, etc. Or at St. Bonaventure.

They also ride mountain bikes, without the aid of a YMCA day camp. Simply amazing!

[black noise]

Again, why must stating facts be negative?
Well, let's have a recap.
Good luck with your paper but realistically you have zero chance of opening those hiking trails to mountain bikes, despite having Super Law Granny
If it's productive, what kind of results has she produced?
You are once again very confused.
Your "paper" doesn't annoy me. It makes me chuckle.
You're confusing being annoyed with being amused at your naivete.
That's just more validation of your cluelessness kid. Because I think your idiotic fantasies are goofy I don't ride?
This whole time all you've been doing is being condecending and discouraging. Yes, you stated some facts. Then because Chrissie decided to try anyway and her friend got mad because you weren't being all that supportive, you turned into a dick and started bitching about how she's just a kid, her paper is a "paper", and she makes you laugh. I don't care how much experience you have or how awesome your facts are, shut up unless you're actually going to help out. If you really care about opening up trails you should be welcoming people with enthusiasm about it and helping them out with your experience. Instead you decide to be "realistic" and shut them down and mock them. Way to go.

[justsomeguy]

Well, let's have a recap.

Yes, let's do that.

Good luck with your paper but realistically you have zero chance of opening those hiking trails to mountain bikes, despite having Super Law Granny

Fact.

If it's productive, what kind of results has she produced?

Not a fact. A question (which remains unanswered). stratguy1618 claimed that "At least shes doing something productive, and for a good cause." and I'm still trying to figure out what the product is, if she's been so productive. Tilting at windmills doesn't count as doing something productive.

You are once again very confused.
Your "paper" doesn't annoy me. It makes me chuckle.
You're confusing being annoyed with being amused at your naivete.

Fact, fact, and fact.

That's just more validation of your cluelessness kid. Because I think your idiotic fantasies are goofy I don't ride?

Not a fact. A question that illustrates just how silly a particular comment was, and is.

If you really care about opening up trails you should be welcoming people with enthusiasm about it and helping them out with your experience.

Why is someone required to "welcome people" even if they are way off base and are destined to be ineffective due to their fundamental lack of understanding of the issues in question?

Look, I can see how these simple distinctions confuse you.

After all, you're the starry-eyed kid that thinks that capitalism/free market economies are evil, despite never having taken an economics class and not understanding how they work. You're also the kid who likes to drape himself in a pseudo-environmental aura of anti-oil consumption/just-ride-a bike holiness (While at the same time having mommy and daddy burn oil driving you to your rides and shuttling rather than actually pedaling your bike uphill...).

[sanjuro]

Again, why must stating facts be negative?

Come on now. You can admit or deny whatever you want. You can claim "you speak only the facts".

Here's two facts for you:

1. You turned a girl's simple request into a huge battle.
2. You received quite a bit negative feedback from the rider community, particularily riders from the Bay Area.

I like how you and your buddy JD find the tiny crack and make into a huge hole. Most people aren't prepared for this kind of negativity, and any victory you score is from riders who want nothing to do with you.

I just don't understand if you got such big issues with this site, why don't you just ignore them?

[justsomeguy]

1. You turned a girl's simple request into a huge battle.

Huge battle? You're quite the drama queen aren't you? It's not a battle sally, it's a discussion about the trail access realities in the East Bay.

2. You received quite a bit negative feedback from the rider community, particularily riders from the Bay Area.

LOL! "The rider community" ????

A few confused kids coupled with a few inexepreinced and/or naive "adults" complaining and a few other riders agreeing with me equals "negative feedback from the rider community"?

I just don't understand if you got such big issues with this site, why don't you just ignore them?

You just love to jump to conclusions/make wild assumptions don't you?

Why do you fantasize that I "got(sic)...big issues" (there's the drama queen in you shining through again) with this site?

You're apparently even more confused than I gave you credit for.

[SPrider]

so who likes to ride bicycles, i DO, leave the arguing to jerry springer

[Pat...]

so who likes to ride bicycles, i DO, leave the arguing to jerry springer
:stupid: Biking is fun!

Justsomeguy, why the hell do you have to post so many negative facts?

As said before, any effort to help the situation is better than none (I can state a fact too!:rofl:) Yes, there is not a lot (not nothing) that can be done to help the situation, but what is so wrong with trying? If she is wrong about things, why not simply help her (as she asked)?

[sanjuro]

Pete,

Like I said, you're very good at making minor disputes into major battles. I re-read the start of this thread, and I realize now this isn't about petitions or trail openings. You made a smart-ass comment to a teenage girl about her grandmother, and she took the bait. Most adults would just ignore that kind of lousy attitude.

Is it cool to be an ass? I could write some more nasty things if I wanted to. You already know that I am good at that kind of thing, unless you have something else to say about wet trails and generalizations. But would that solve anything?

I am a real person. I work only a few miles from Clayton. I ride the same trails as you do, and you ride trails that I have worked on. And I have ridden trails that you have worked on.

I have less respect for you because of the crap you wrote here. I have no influence on your life and I certainly mean you no harm. But when we meet, and I suspect it will be sooner than later, I'll just be indifferent towards you, rather than be friendly. And that's sad, because I like to think every rider could be a friend of mine.

Steve

[alloutproductio]

woooo,
didnt even want to get in on yet another weakass punk debate started by justomeguy,but damn, making rude comments about a 15 yr old girls grandma,
& her 'slobbering boy-toy'!!!
you just took the 'intellectual debate' you started n dropped it a few low, low notches....
i'd love to see chrissie smoke you on a bike, n then smack the $hit out of your ass!

[Xvert]

Pete,

Like I said, you're very good at making minor disputes into major battles. I re-read the start of this thread, and I realize now this isn't about petitions or trail openings. You made a smart-ass comment to a teenage girl about her grandmother, and she took the bait. Most adults would just ignore that kind of lousy attitude.

Is it cool to be an ass? I could write some more nasty things if I wanted to. You already know that I am good at that kind of thing, unless you have something else to say about wet trails and generalizations. But would that solve anything?

I am a real person. I work only a few miles from Clayton. I ride the same trails as you do, and you ride trails that I have worked on. And I have ridden trails that you have worked on.

I have less respect for you because of the crap you wrote here. I have no influence on your life and I certainly mean you no harm. But when we meet, and I suspect it will be sooner than later, I'll just be indifferent towards you, rather than be friendly. And that's sad, because I like to think every rider could be a friend of mine.

Steve
Now it all makes sense. Good luck Pink!

[thePINKster]

so who likes to ride bicycles, i DO, leave the arguing to jerry springer

AMEN!:agree:

[RacerZ]

Chrissie, you mentioned in a previous post that you were sending in the final draft. If your paper is done I'd be interested in reading it.

Its too bad that all of that arguing sprung up, because this thread could have been a lot more help I'm sure without having to sort through the bickering.

Good luck with the paper if it isn't done yet, but if it is send me a PM

[stratguy1618]

Chrissie, you mentioned in a previous post that you were sending in the final draft. If your paper is done I'd be interested in reading it.

Its too bad that all of that arguing sprung up, because this thread could have been a lot more help I'm sure without having to sort through the bickering.

Good luck with the paper if it isn't done yet, but if it is send me a PM
I think shes pretty much done and her grandma has to read over it, she doesn't have the internet right now so Im just giving you an update, cuz I was talking about it with her yesterday.

[thePINKster]

I think shes pretty much done and her grandma has to read over it, she doesn't have the internet right now so Im just giving you an update, cuz I was talking about it with her yesterday.

yup.. that about sums it up.

the paper is done. the g-ma is gonna read it over, and then we'll write a petition.

i can send u an email with the paper in it once i've got the net at my house again.

[stratguy1618]

yeahhhh superrrr lawww grannnnyyyy!!!!!!!!!!