diff in 4 bar suspensions?

[dhkid]

sorta want feed back from riders how all the different 4 bar desings differ( not technically, but how they ride.). ict, frs, dw link, vpp maestro and what ever the 825 linkage is called.
right now i am riding a vpfree with dhx coming off a bullit. i feel the vp free eats bumps really well and carrieds speed better then a single pivot. braks better too. but it does have that dead feeling no matter how i set up the shox. ict is much more active too, but doesn't eat bumps that well, and itsn't that stable too.
dont have any experience whit the other types. all i have heard from the monkeys about the sunday and the 825 is it great and eats bumps like no other. so does this bike really hav eno flaws? not deadish feel?
i know, i know, they are all different suspension desings but at the end of the day all of them are supposed to pedal well bla bla bla....

thanks in advance for what ever feed back i get.

[OGRipper]

With a DHX and the correct spring the free can feel pretty lively IMO. Are you running lots of rebound or something?

[dhkid]

i am using a 300 spring, dhx with 7 clicks of rebound from fully open. coming off a bullit (with the same shox) it felt way more active. oh yea, thats only when you are not braking or pedaling.:oink:

[OGRipper]

Sounds like you might need a heavier spring. How much do you weigh? The SCB set-up guide starts at a 350 lb spring for a 100 lb rider...riding a spring that is too soft can result in the bike wallowing deep in its travel. And you might open up the rebound a bit too.

[-BB-]

The ONLY problem with the IH line was some crappy hardware from 5th element causing play in the linkage. IH dumped them like a cheap date though, and now everything is kosher.

[DirtyMike]

Sounds like you might need a heavier spring. How much do you weigh? The SCB set-up guide starts at a 350 lb spring for a 100 lb rider...riding a spring that is too soft can result in the bike wallowing deep in its travel. And you might open up the rebound a bit too.


I agree with this one here, sounds like your in need of a heavier spring, and Defenitly back off your rebound a bit, The VPP system has a specific point were you need to set your sag at, the wheel moves forward then backward in its path of travel, Call up SC tech, they will walk you through it, you will need your ride weight with gear, and try to be as specific on your style of riding as possible. You will really like that bike after you get it tuned right!!!

[SCABRIDER]

i ♥ FSR...

[dhkid]

the sag point is screwed, i am using a 2.5 in stroke shox with 30 % sag (i got a new spring 350 on the way too), not the usuall 2.75 in stroke shox. and isn't my rebound pretty fast already? that 7 clicks from fully open not fully closed.

[Bicyclist]

Did you have a DHX on the Bullit? Cause it's a pretty supple shock, and w/ a too-soft spring it would be really wallow-y.

[luelling]

sorta want feed back from riders how all the different 4 bar desings differ( not technically, but how they ride.). ict, frs, dw link, vpp maestro and what ever the 825 linkage is called.
right now i am riding a vpfree with dhx coming off a bullit. i feel the vp free eats bumps really well and carrieds speed better then a single pivot. braks better too. but it does have that dead feeling no matter how i set up the shox. ict is much more active too, but doesn't eat bumps that well, and itsn't that stable too.
dont have any experience whit the other types. all i have heard from the monkeys about the sunday and the 825 is it great and eats bumps like no other. so does this bike really hav eno flaws? not deadish feel?
i know, i know, they are all different suspension desings but at the end of the day all of them are supposed to pedal well bla bla bla....

thanks in advance for what ever feed back i get.

I've owned a bunch of single pivots and I currently own an M3. I love the M3, it doens't pedal as well as my DHI did but it eats bumps and handles better overall. I've owned an older(2002) Kona Stab Primo and i thought it sucked (I know someone will flame me for that one). It had bad pedal feedback and braked like crap as well. I do have to admit though, I built that bike up for jumping, hucking and screwing around and it served that purpose to the max. But as far as a race rig I didn't like (chime in and tell me how Barel won worlds twice on the Kona)

[dhkid]

isn't 30% sag the norm? anyways. i myslef prefer a bit less, around 25%. yupp, i used to have a bullit with the same shox, with aroud 25% sag.

[keen]

How big of a departure is the VP Free compared to the Bullit ? I currently ride a Bullit w/ a DHX and want a Free but would be upset after $$$ to only see minimal improvment. My buddy has an FSR Big Hit and the travel feel bottomless, my single pivot Bullit, in comparison, has issues.

[OGRipper]

the sag point is screwed, i am using a 2.5 in stroke shox with 30 % sag (i got a new spring 350 on the way too), not the usuall 2.75 in stroke shox. and isn't my rebound pretty fast already? that 7 clicks from fully open not fully closed.

Try reducing the overall sag amount so you are roughly in the same spot at your sag point as you would be with the full 30% and the 2.75.

How much to you weigh? A 350 spring should help but still might not be enough.

And regardless of how many clicks, if your bike feels dead with a DHX you might try opening it up.

Keen, the free is a big departure from a bullit. If you can better describe the "issues" with your bullit and what you want to use it for we will be more able to help.

[keen]

Keen, the free is a big departure from a bullit. If you can better describe the "issues" with your bullit and what you want to use it for we will be more able to help.

Last season I used the Bullit for shuttle assited DH. The rear always felt harsh w/ the 5th. I decided over the winter I would make the Bullit my trail bike and purchase the Free for DH. Came across a DHX so I purchased it for the Bullit - only two rides but it feels much better than the 5th. Back to the Free, just want to make sure before I drop big $$$ that a free is going to be a better (much better would be nice) for shuttle assisted DH over the Bullit.

[OGRipper]

I would say absolutely yes, in my opinion the free is much better than a bullit for shuttle assisted DH. It has more and better quality travel, the rear end is much stiffer, overall the bike is more durable, etc. But the free is not a pure rock-gobbling DH bike, it is more about jumping and (duh) freeride-style shuttling - if you want to stick to the ground and get down the hill fastest, get a V10.

[keen]

I would say absolutely yes, in my opinion the free is much better than a bullit for shuttle assisted DH. It has more and better quality travel, the rear end is much stiffer, overall the bike is more durable, etc. But the free is not a pure rock-gobbling DH bike, it is more about jumping and (duh) freeride-style shuttling - if you want to stick to the ground and get down the hill fastest, get a V10.

I am 6'4" w/ a long torso and I rode a large 05' V10 which felt really small. I read the older large V10's were bigger but you never know till you straddle one. The XL VP Free is a big bike from what I hear - personally I like big not small when it comes to bikes. The V10 would be a nice ride but I just don't know if the older V10 would fit.

[DirtyMike]

the sag point is screwed, i am using a 2.5 in stroke shox with 30 % sag (i got a new spring 350 on the way too), not the usuall 2.75 in stroke shox. and isn't my rebound pretty fast already? that 7 clicks from fully open not fully closed.

If your running a 2.5 inch stroke shock on that bike, might as well throw the bike out, your already at the sag point you need to be to be sitting " In the pivot"

My rebound is about 4 clicks from closed, either way, your in need of the proiper shock for that bike!!! or you will never see it ride like it was intended

Here, you should follow this setup guide very closley, once your using the proper shock of coarse, it shows your Preload, spring weight, air pressure, everything...

http://www.santacruzbikes.com/vpfree/index.php?setup=1


And here is teh FAQ about the shock size, good luck

http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/vpfree/index.php?faq=1

[dhkid]

i am 55kgs. on the spring calcutator on tf tune, the 350 spring is gonna be right for me.
the free is defanetly much better then the bullit, it can pedal through anything, braking doens't effect the suspension that bad too. the 2.5 in shox was there to lower the bb and slacken the HA. i love it now.

so no one has much to say about the other suspension designs?

[thaflyinfatman]

There's just too much variance even within the designs dude. FSR for example varies HEAPS between one bike and the next.

[keen]

Did you purchasethe bike with the shorter shock ? (8.5x2.5 I assume) If you had a 8.75 x 2.75 you could use it for ride comparison. I really like a low slack bike and I too am considering a shorter shock for a future VP Free.

[DirtyMike]

i am 55kgs. on the spring calcutator on tf tune, the 350 spring is gonna be right for me.
the free is defanetly much better then the bullit, it can pedal through anything, braking doens't effect the suspension that bad too. the 2.5 in shox was there to lower the bb and slacken the HA. i love it now.

so no one has much to say about the other suspension designs?


Your killing the bikes build with the shock, you really need to ride it properly with the right shock, following that chart with the wrong length shock doesnt do any good. Your sitting below the proper sag position, and not working the linkage the way it was intended!!! Try it, you will most likely like it, if you really need a lower BB height you bought the wrong bike

[DirtyMike]

Just didi two things for you that are gonna Hopefully help you out, Cruched a couple sets of Numbers for ya to match up the fitment chart with that shock(And i thought i would never use Algebra and geometry post highschool)

1. Ok Proper sag for that bikes Geometry is now 0% sag!!!!! that is where you will now the most effecentcy<SP> for pedalling and suspension use

2. You have effectivly dropped your suspension travel from 8.25 inches of travel, to 6.6 inches of travel.

Hope i didnt offend by doing this, its your bike of coarse and yours do do what you will, just your going to get a Much, much better ride out of it with the proper shock, even if you set the sag really low, youll get your travel back. Good riding to you

[keen]

[QUOTE}
1. Ok Proper sag for that bikes Geometry is now 0% sag!!!!! that is where you will now the most effecentcy<SP> for pedalling and suspension use

I am not going to try and think too hard about the rear axle path generated by a shorter shock but I will say 0 sag isn't gonna cut it. Sag sets the riders weight to the shock / bike if the suspension is too progressive, linear, rising falling rate whatever it's going to have one stiff ride w/ 0 sag. My advise call Push industries for a custom valving they may be able to work the rider, bike (new axle path) and style into a shock.

[thaflyinfatman]

Just didi two things for you that are gonna Hopefully help you out, Cruched a couple sets of Numbers for ya to match up the fitment chart with that shock(And i thought i would never use Algebra and geometry post highschool)

1. Ok Proper sag for that bikes Geometry is now 0% sag!!!!! that is where you will now the most effecentcy<SP> for pedalling and suspension use

2. You have effectivly dropped your suspension travel from 8.25 inches of travel, to 6.6 inches of travel.

Hope i didnt offend by doing this, its your bike of coarse and yours do do what you will, just your going to get a Much, much better ride out of it with the proper shock, even if you set the sag really low, youll get your travel back. Good riding to you

I tend to disagree. I remember DW saying a while ago that the VPP bikes (or at least the V10) had pro-squat in the beginning of the travel and the anti-squat curve increased to 100% very late in the travel (100% anti-squat being at or very close to maximum efficiency as that's where forces trying to extend the suspension counter the rearwards weight shift when you accelerate). Based on that I would hazard a guess that the VP-Free is similar and that it will actually pedal better further into the travel. Santa Cruz's VPP physics models are fundamentally flawed in the sense that they don't work AS CLAIMED (not that they don't work at all - what I'm saying is that any high levels of pedalling efficiency are incidental rather than being due to the factors their marketing puts forward), and as such I think their "maximum pedalling efficiency at 30% sag" is also very likely to be incorrect. Maybe DW will jump in with some actual figures here, cos I haven't done any kind of quantitative analyses of the VPP bikes.

Keen: the axle path will still be the same with a shorter shock, except it won't have the first inch or two obviously. The rest of the axle path will be identical to how it would be with the normal length shock.

[dhkid]

i did some calculations too, and came up with:
30% sag on the normall shox would give about 20mm of sag. and the difference between the two shox is .25in or 6mm so that means i can still run 14mm sag on the shorter shox,that comes up to 22% so i think i am ok, unless i screwed up somewhere in the calculations. oh yea, i calcutaled that i have 7.8 in of rear travel too. something is wrong somewhere for sure.:clue:

the bike came with a 5th element which just felt like ass, i guess it did pedal better due to the platform but i can crank up the proppedal if i wanted it to pedla better.
still compared to the 5th the dhx feels soo much better.

[dhkid]

There's just too much variance even within the designs dude. FSR for example varies HEAPS between one bike and the next.
yea even vpp, the short travel bikes feel like hardtails when you pedal.
but just for the sake of comparing between long travel bikes?