V10 vs. M3

[Gobig510]

Alright, I sold my old 03 V10 and my 03 Mono is on its way out, now is the time to get a new race bike. Should I go with the Intense M3, or the Santa Cruz V10, both very sexy bikes, but i was wondering what you guys thought was the best. Is one better for racing? Another better for freeride? Cornering? Do both have about the same sag? What about the new Foes 2:1? Race season is coming up, can i get some help?

[Bicyclist]

You're gonna have to give info like height/weight, riding style, terrain, ect. before anyone can give you a reasonable bit of advice.

[Gobig510]

no problem buddy, i am about 5ft 11in-6ft, i weigh 180. I am ride rough terrain most of the time, i'm not into the pedaling uphill stuff, just basically purely downhill. i will race the mountain states cup here in colorado- places from Angel Fire to Crested Butte to Keystone. Angel Fire beates the crap out of you-lava rock, but Crested Butte is more of a mellow course. There are also some high speed courses mixed in there. I also like freeriding, the latest jump we built was a 35ft road gap, I hope to get some pics up soon. I would sacrifice some of the freeriding aspects of the bike for a better race bike though. So that is basically what i ride, M3 or V10?

[Bicyclist]

I think they would both work but personally I would go for the V10 if I were you simply because Intenses seem to be loud.

[zmtber]

i doubt the m3 has as much sag as the v10, becuase the way the v10 has to be set up is with 100mm of sag (or something like that) in order for the sus design to work properly.

[Bicyclist]

Yeah, the V10 is designed to be run with 100mm of sag. I really prefer the V10 to an M3 because of that, the fact that Intenses tend to be loud, and V10s are dead sexy. Check out the V10 thread somewhere on the first page of this forum and you'll see what I mean ;)

[TheMontashu]

i doubt the m3 has as much sag as the v10, becuase the way the v10 has to be set up is with 100mm of sag (or something like that) in order for the sus design to work properly.
Ummm..... (insert discusted comment here) they are the same suspention.... VPP on both

[Netguy]

I would get the V10. However either way, you are going to be super happy.

[santacruzer87]

They are both bascially the same bike, either will be super sick

[maxyedor]

Get the Foes 2:1 or quit riding. It realy is that good

[davep]

one thing that i know for sure that would make up my mind:

m3 9.5 in travel w/ a 3 in shock = 3.166 ratio

v10 10 in travel w/a 2.75 in shock = 3.63 ratio

I know people like the v 10 but that is a very high shock/travel ratio and shocks will work better at a lower ratio all else being equal.

[bikenweed]

The bikes are not the same, they are actually very different.

I've got a couple days in on a large v10 and a couple runs on a large m3. The v10 was set up with more sag, and had a significantly lower feel. The m3 felt taller and steeper, but not in a bad way. The v10 had a ton more weight on the rear wheel with it's slacker angles, but also has a ton of sag, so it's pretty retarded to get a proper bunnyhop going on. The m3 cornered more normally, was much easier to bunnyhop, and felt a lot lighter. If I had a choice, I would go for the m3. It felt like a higher quality, more refined version of an alreay sick bike, and was a lot easier to toss around than the v10.

Do you prefer to lean back, plow, and make the bike do everything, or do you like to jump over stuff, manual through rock gardens, pump tight corners, and man handle your bike? The m3 would be better for the more hoppy riding style, and the v10 rules for plowing.

In corners both bikes kill. The v10 rewards a moto style cornering technique with very predictable drift, and the m3 is more for the long-time MTB rider who leans forward going in/leans back coming out/pumping berms rider.

I would get the m3.

[COmtbiker12]

Hey Cameron, we haven't hungout or anything in a LONG time so if you wanna check out my M3 and maybe pedal it around the trails up by your house for a little while sometime just let me know. :)

[ChrisKring]

one thing that i know for sure that would make up my mind:

m3 9.5 in travel w/ a 3 in shock = 3.166 ratio

v10 10 in travel w/a 2.75 in shock = 3.63 ratio

I know people like the v 10 but that is a very high shock/travel ratio and shocks will work better at a lower ratio all else being equal.

It's not that simple. Piston head speed and fluid dynamics play a big role in the damping characteristics of the bike.

This whole leverage ratio dates back to the days when shocks had very little damping (AKA Vanilla)

[OGRipper]

Ummm..... (insert discusted comment here) they are the same suspention.... VPP on both

Well they share a lot but they are pretty different. Subtle changes in the linkages and pivot locations can have big effects. I mean, Turners weren't the same as Specialized bikes just because they both used FSR/Horst links for a while.

It's a tough call and comes down to preference, you need to ride both to be sure.

[kidwoo]

I've gotten a chance to ride 2 m3s and one of the newer v10s. I have to say I like the new v10 better than any of the other sc bikes. BUT I did feel like the m3 was a little lower and easier to get into tight corners with. Not much but just a tad.

I'd be stoked on either one though.

[BISON 454]

Get The M3 It's A Kick Ass Race Bike

[dexter]

nonne of the above, id get a sinister r9 if i whrere you, perfect for co conditions, fast low slack and takes the nastiest hits like it is its job. plus setting up the shock correctly doesnt take ages and you wont be waiting for 9months to get it (like a santa cruz)

[S.K.C.]

The M3 is a bit more of a race bike than the V-10, but both are ideal rigs for DH racing. Rennie made his world record jump attempt on his V-10, and the frame held up fine. So we know the V-10 can handle some tough abuse. Actually didn't Gee ride an M3 at the last Rampage?

Honestly, the 2 bikes are like fraternal twins. Sanat Cruz and Intense are now sharing the same design platform since they both bought the rights to use VPP. The V-10 came first followed by the release of the M3 to the public about a year and a half later... You can't go wrong with either really. Trying to decide between the two is almost like splitting hairs.

The Foes 2:1 is HUGE. It's also much heavier than either the M3 or the V-10... I'd say stick with the lighter frames - they'll be easier to handle without expending a lot of energy to do it.

[Cant Climb]

Look at the geometry diagrams on the SC and Intense websites......the geo's are quite different........
Not sure how the geo changes when the bike is on the trail......

I looked at both hard and ended going with the M3....

I have about 3 substantial rides on the M3......seems like a pretty wicked bike........the frist adjective that jumps in my head is Athletic...:hot:

The bike is a big change from the single pivots i raced the last 4 seasons....

[davep]

It's not that simple. Piston head speed and fluid dynamics play a big role in the damping characteristics of the bike.

This whole leverage ratio dates back to the days when shocks had very little damping (AKA Vanilla)

I never said that it was that simple (both bikes have variable rates and current shocks are much more reliable at higher ratios,but...) what i said was that all else being equal, a lower ratio is beneficial(higher ratio = more energy being disipated through damping and that energy has to go somewhere). I will also go so far as to say that there is no reason to design a 10 in travel frame around a 2.75 in shock when 3 in stroke shocks are readily available (and infact the standard for long travel DH bikes) and most racers dont want or need that much travel. It is poorly executed design in my opinion

[OGRipper]

what i said was that all else being equal, a lower ratio is beneficial(higher ratio = more energy being disipated through damping and that energy has to go somewhere).

That is generally true but it is also a rule of thumb from the past when bikes had much higher ratios and shocks were less durable. I don't think a 3.63 is high enough to be worried, and the slightly shorter shock keeps things relatively compact. I know lots of people with V10s and haven't heard of any issues with fade or blown shocks (at least, no more than other frames).

[konahucker43]

go with the v10 for sure. i love mine.

[DukeNukem3d]

Yeah for you maybe, you dont want to huck an M3!
Personally I would go for the M3 because Santa Cruz does not have the style and same perspective on DH as Intense has. If you have ever ridden Intense you know why. You've got Honda's and you have got Ferrari's. Both are great and both can go fast but they just differ on some things. If money is an issue, let that then make the decision. Good luck!

[freeridermtb4]

I saw a V10 at the shop, it looked hugggeee, an it was a medium, id be scared to ride that thing on the shore, way to tall for me

[intensified]

My opininion is the m3 is the bombdiggity, the rear end has no weight to it when you pick it up. It is a lot quieter then the m1, if that is a concern.

[Gobig510]

Hey Tony- ya if you want to come up that would be sweet. i'll take that M3 for a cruize, my brother has an 05 v10 now, so i'll compare them. what fork are you running? did you go with the fox 40? he's got a boxxer wc, so they will feel a little different just because of that, but ya i'd like to try it out. we could even meet down in the springs and hit some road gaps we built. there is also about a 25ft straight up cliff drop that looks pretty sexy, we found it a few weekends ago.

[Gobig510]

oh- and thanks to everyone for the replies, i guess i'll just have to try both of them out for myself.

[Zutroy]

The M3 is a bit more of a race bike than the V-10, but both are ideal rigs for DH racing. Rennie made his world record jump attempt on his V-10, and the frame held up fine. So we know the V-10 can handle some tough abuse. Actually didn't Gee ride an M3 at the last Rampage?

Honestly, the 2 bikes are like fraternal twins. Sanat Cruz and Intense are now sharing the same design platform since they both bought the rights to use VPP. The V-10 came first followed by the release of the M3 to the public about a year and a half later... You can't go wrong with either really. Trying to decide between the two is almost like splitting hairs.

The Foes 2:1 is HUGE. It's also much heavier than either the M3 or the V-10... I'd say stick with the lighter frames - they'll be easier to handle without expending a lot of energy to do it.

Yeah, the Geo between the bikes is pretty different, and they feel completely different to me.

the 2:1 isen't huge, and since it's not being made yet, it's kinda hard to say it's much heavier...

[S.K.C.]

Yeah - I know, I was speaking in general terms about the similarities in design and how Intense and SC shared the same one. The geo IS definitely different between them.

[konahucker43]

Yeah for you maybe, you dont want to huck an M3!
Personally I would go for the M3 because Santa Cruz does not have the style and same perspective on DH as Intense has. If you have ever ridden Intense you know why. You've got Honda's and you have got Ferrari's. Both are great and both can go fast but they just differ on some things. If money is an issue, let that then make the decision. Good luck!

i dont think you've got it quite right. when you buy and intense you pay for the name. thats why they cost so fricken much. whether or not thats all about how much better they are i am not sure. but from what i can see the they both have their advantages and disadvantages and one is $600 more?

[Gobig510]

i haven't dealt with santa cruz on warranty issues, but my experience with intense has been great. i sent in my broken M1 swingarm last year, they sent me a brand new one for free! it was an 03, so i don't even think it was still covered on the warranty. is santa cruz easy to deal with?

[thejames]

you got lucky as far as warranties go, most of my customers that have had intense warranty issues got little to no help from them, including myself on a cracked tazer that was pretty new. i was told that since they no longer made the frame it was not under warranty any more. sure sucks on a 1000$ 8 month old frame.

[TheInedibleHulk]

Well Cameron you know Im not I totally impartial source but...

Having raced a V10 this year and ridden a cuple differnt M3's over the course of the season, I can say for sure that they are both very good bikes. They don't feel exactly the same. To me the M3 feels a little quicker and twitchier, the V10 a bit more laid back and sleddish. Both pedal great and have good suspension action. As someone else said, the V10 favors a little bit of a rearward position in the corners. I thought it was awesome because I love getting back in the saddle on super fast courses like keystone and angelfire and letting it rip on the rear tire. I never got to push an M3 they way I did my bike. The V10 swallows absolutely any hit you can throw at it, and I can imagine the M3 would be almost as plush. M3's do cost more.

As for the 2:1, thats what Im getting this year assuming I can sell the V10. I was planning on riding the V10 again but the shop I now work at and ride for doesnt sell Santa Cruz, so I want to get something we sell. I figure the 2:1 should be stiff and bruly with lots of travel, which is pretty much my thing. However, 3300 dollars retail for a frameset hurts no matter who you are.

[Gobig510]

ya i see where you are coming from, i know i'll get a v10 or M3, not a 2:1, too expensive for me. i guess it just depends on price. i've found some pretty cheap V10's, so i'll probably end up with one of those, M3's seem to be keeping their value a little better.

[COmtbiker12]

Well Cameron you know Im not I totally impartial source but...

Having raced a V10 this year and ridden a cuple differnt M3's over the course of the season, I can say for sure that they are both very good bikes. They don't feel exactly the same. To me the M3 feels a little quicker and twitchier, the V10 a bit more laid back and sleddish. Both pedal great and have good suspension action. As someone else said, the V10 favors a little bit of a rearward position in the corners. I thought it was awesome because I love getting back in the saddle on super fast courses like keystone and angelfire and letting it rip on the rear tire. I never got to push an M3 they way I did my bike. The V10 swallows absolutely any hit you can throw at it, and I can imagine the M3 would be almost as plush. M3's do cost more.

As for the 2:1, thats what Im getting this year assuming I can sell the V10. I was planning on riding the V10 again but the shop I now work at and ride for doesnt sell Santa Cruz, so I want to get something we sell. I figure the 2:1 should be stiff and bruly with lots of travel, which is pretty much my thing. However, 3300 dollars retail for a frameset hurts no matter who you are.
Good analysis and comaprison between the two as far as local stuff is concerned and I'd have to agree for the most part. Despite myself coming off an 04 V10 with the older design they are very similar it seems. On my M3 I would say though that it is a bit livlier through rock gardens and is easier to maneuver around. Of course my old V10 was before the new style so I'm sure that the new V10s eliminated a lot of those characteristics.