Orange 224 vs. Morewood Izumu DH [Archive]

gangstamaxx

01-16-2006, 11:00 AM

Both reallly sweet bikes. I have ridden the morewood and I own a 223... the 224 has a lower pivot point that the morewood and is going to be a tad bit lighter. I havent really dealt with orange but I can say that morewood has extremely good customer service, I have hung out and chatted with the guys at races for hours, they are really nice guys and would definetly hook you up....

I would be biased in telling you to get the orange because I own one...they are such simmilar bikes though that it really wouldnt matter, the only major differences are the lower pivot point and rear chain stays.

ViciousDHer

01-16-2006, 11:09 AM

Buy Moorewood :)

ride_fast

01-16-2006, 11:12 AM

224's are absolutly amazing. I have one and i love it alot, even more than my old 223, and 222. I dont know much about morewoods bikes but i know that you wont be the least bit dissapointed with a 224. The guys at Orange are Super nice as well. plus the Orange is a bit lighter!!

Laaz

01-16-2006, 11:13 AM

Well yes...that is the thing....i am wondering if it is worth to pay more for the pivot point, chainstay and head angle of orange (things that in my mind make 0range better for racing).....etc...

DHCorky

01-16-2006, 11:14 AM

Buy American :angry:

Then what is your suggestion since neither one of these bikes are American.

Isn't the 224 quite a bit lighter than the Izumi?

bizutch

01-16-2006, 11:14 AM

Well, i´ve been thinking of buying one of those frames....well hard decision...

your opinion?

thanx!!
you'll see the morewood trailer at all the Nationals this year if that helps...

ride_fast

01-16-2006, 11:21 AM

The single pivot design is nice because it is more reliable in my opinion. not all this extra stuff where things can go wrong. i dont know aboiut the Morewood but the Orange's craftmanship is amazing.

SBDHrida

01-16-2006, 11:22 AM

I'd say 224 because it seems like a more competitive race bike, but I haven't ridden either so my opinion might not be the best.

bizutch

01-16-2006, 11:34 AM

I'd say 224 because it seems like a more competitive race bike, but I haven't ridden either so my opinion might not be the best.
OK...I don't ride either bike...but what you just said is funny...explain please. what makes it "more competitive"?

Jeremy R

01-16-2006, 11:35 AM

You are gonna get alot of opinions on this thread that say get the Orange (because Peat rode one) from alot of people who have never thrown a leg over either bike.
For me this would be a no brainer.
I would get the Morewood because their North American HQ's is located less than an hour from me. They go to all the races that I go to, including the US Open and Nationals, they have given me free beer, and I just like those guys and their bikes.
Both bikes are well made single pivots, but I have not seen much of Orange around here to form an opinion on them one way or another.

Transcend

01-16-2006, 11:36 AM

OK...I don't ride either bike...but what you just said is funny...explain please. what makes it "more competitive"?

I'm wondering the same thing myself. If peaty made it more competitive, i musta brought that average down, in some way shape or form. :)

Laaz

01-16-2006, 11:36 AM

Well about craftmanship.....morewood is know as one of the best in this category as well...as orange...so that is not a concern!!

Well, yes i think that orange is better too, but i am not shure that it is 460£(for frame) better!

IronhorseCT

01-16-2006, 12:47 PM

I have ridden the morewood for a year and been around the Orange as well. In all honesty, pivot placement with today's shocks means very little when it comes to pedal feedback. I was also surprised to find out how nimble the Izumu is with a 65 degree HA. I expected it to corner poorly, when in fact it out cornered my steep HA Turner DHR with ease. Shows what I know about designing a bike.

My vote is morewood and pocket the extra cash for a better fork or travel money.

Brennan

tomvan72

01-16-2006, 12:53 PM

I have seen hand in hand both bikes. The Morewood will build up to a true 39lbs with Dh tubes. The Orange is light as weel. the fun aspect I think goes to the Morewood. It is also much much quieter. I think that it is the quietest bike on the trail.

tomvan72

01-16-2006, 01:00 PM

FCLinder

01-16-2006, 02:20 PM

I have been on both and love true single pivot bikes. I decided to return to racing this year and will be on a Morewood because of the people running the company. They are great to work with and will take good care of you.

Go with the Morewood.......

bizutch

01-16-2006, 02:27 PM

delete the thread...it just got crapped in...:rolleyes:

FCLinder

01-16-2006, 02:29 PM

delete the thread...it just got crapped in...:rolleyes:

I hope you are not talking to me?

Laaz

01-16-2006, 02:35 PM

well i am from south europe.....so i think i wont have anny real contact with anny of the companies....

konabiker

01-16-2006, 02:36 PM

Keep in mind that the Morewood Izimu dh is a race bred bike. Built by 3 time South Afican champion Patrick Morewood. In the past year, 3 us riders were selected for the national team to go to worlds. They were all on Morewoods. I did not see any americans on an Orange. Not to say anything bad about the 224 of course.
I fail to see the logic here.

I personally don't like the Izumi, but the company and people seem really cool. I haven't spent anytime on a 224, but from looking at the geometry and the pivot placement, as well as the weight I think I would like it more.

ride_fast

01-16-2006, 04:16 PM

You said your located in south Europe? then i would get the 224. it will be easier to get it and if you need anything from orange it will be easier to get as well. Plus, its an awousome bike. you wont be dissapointed with your decision.

tomvan72

01-16-2006, 04:34 PM

[QUOTE=konabiker]I fail to see the logic here.

The Logic being based on the fact that the bike is a true race bike. Makes since to me. Both bikes are race bikes. OHHHH more logic.

Transcend

01-16-2006, 04:38 PM

[QUOTE=konabiker]I fail to see the logic here.

The Logic being based on the fact that the bike is a true race bike. Makes since to me. Both bikes are race bikes. OHHHH more logic.

Well he isn't alone. Why should he keep in mind that the morewood is a race bike? The 224 is an ultra lightweight race only bike as well...

So clarify for me and the rest of the confused souls here, what exactly should he be keeping in mind?

tomvan72

01-16-2006, 04:50 PM

The logic might just be in my head! At some point I thought someone hinted to the 224 being more of a race bike. I was stating that the Izimu is on par. I must not have explained it well enuff. So dont worry about it too much. I'll try better next time!

Laaz

01-16-2006, 04:53 PM

So clarify for me and the rest of the confused souls here, what exactly should he be keeping in mind?

Exactly!!!

tomvan72

01-16-2006, 04:55 PM

Laaz, If you are in Europe, There are dealers in the UK, Germany, Austria and Holland . Maybe some of these are close to you and you could get a test ride. Then you can choose for yourself and not have to listen to me jabber!

Transcend

01-16-2006, 04:56 PM

tomvan72

01-16-2006, 04:58 PM

Its cool, I get lost all the time!

Laaz

01-16-2006, 05:13 PM

I knew what you ment...but i am so $%$ confuzed, well sorry, i know that is my problem...i have delers/selers for both in my country...so it is virtualy the same for both bikes......but i cant get a test ride...because there are no bikes in stock.....

well i will think and think for some time...and in the end i think i will be satisfied no matter wich bike i will get....

Thanx for your help! no offence!

OGRipper

01-16-2006, 05:15 PM

In all honesty, pivot placement with today's shocks means very little when it comes to pedal feedback.

Although I agree that new shocks help make single pivots acceptable in terms of pedaling performance, all the platform damping in the world won't do much to minimize feedback. You hit a bump, your suspension compresses, you get chain growth, and if it's a lot, you'll feel it in the pedals. Sure, you can minimize the amount of that compression but pivot location still makes a big difference. Did you mean to say something else?

tomvan72

01-16-2006, 05:16 PM

Its cool. Glad I can some help. Ever make it to the states, I will personally get you a test ride on a Morewood. I own 5 of them!

biker3

01-16-2006, 06:24 PM

Ride Both, no? Then decide? All anyone can tell you on here is the paper specs and geometry. It always comes down to personal preference no matter how you put it. Plus the 224 and the Morewood are fairly rare bikes seeing as the 224 is totally new and the fact that Morewood is also fairly new to the market, so you aren't going to be finding many un-biased, non-team based reviews.

I feel sorry for those who have never learned proper english.

WheelieMan

01-16-2006, 06:34 PM

Hey Morewood people, whatever happened to this idea? Was it scrapped?:
http://www.morewoodbikes.com/chain.html

MOTODH

01-16-2006, 06:39 PM

Hey Morewood people, whatever happened to this idea? Was it scrapped?:
http://www.morewoodbikes.com/chain.html

hmm thats pretty cool, is it spring loaded or something? any info:confused:

tomvan72

01-16-2006, 06:40 PM

This is still in the prototype stages. It is being tested and then this will come into play. It looks cool !

zedro

01-16-2006, 07:50 PM

hmm thats pretty cool, is it spring loaded or something? any info:confused:

ha! someone finally did what i had abandonned in my bike design a long time ago. It's simply an idler freely mounted to an arm that pivots about the main pivot. The position of that idler is maintained by the chain tension, allowing the idler to move in a position that reduces chain 'lengthening'. It was actually one of my original premises for the design (and some projects), but never got tested tho. Never published this pic before either, taken april 2003 just after first assembly, the front end didnt get built until later in the year. Parts werent even anodized yet....

dhpunk~

01-16-2006, 07:53 PM

i have an /05 Morewood Izumi and absolutely love it! the /06 model has a couple solid improvement with a thru-axle dropouts and ISCG tabs. i like the idea with the Morewood FBK (floating brake kit) it can be added or removed within minutes, unlike the Orange it has it or doesnt.....the price difference is huge! buy a spare shock, build up extra wheels for mud, hookers....what ever, this frame is built for the long haul!
im sending mine out tomarrow to be sand blasted and powder coated....gonna look killa!

MOTODH

01-16-2006, 07:57 PM

ha! someone finally did what i had abandonned in my bike design a long time ago. It's simply an idler freely mounted to an arm that pivots about the main pivot. The position of that idler is maintained by the chain tension, allowing the idler to move in a position that reduces chain 'lengthening'. It was actually one of my original premises for the design (and some projects), but never got tested tho. Never published this pic before either, taken april 2003 just after first assembly, the front end didnt get built until later in the year. Parts werent even anodized yet....

thats too cool zedro, ahead of your time:thumb: :thumb:

dhpunk~

01-16-2006, 08:12 PM

id also like to add the customer service from Margo and Richard at the U.S. distributor are top notch!! was treated like a friend from day one....cheers!

darryl

IronhorseCT

01-16-2006, 08:43 PM

Although I agree that new shocks help make single pivots acceptable in terms of pedaling performance, all the platform damping in the world won't do much to minimize feedback. You hit a bump, your suspension compresses, you get chain growth, and if it's a lot, you'll feel it in the pedals. Sure, you can minimize the amount of that compression but pivot location still makes a big difference. Did you mean to say something else?

I was refrenceing pedal induced bob...sorry, wrong term. Thinking of the old days of riding the Super 8's and stuff and bobbing your way down the trail.

I'll lay off the techie speak now

dcamp29

01-16-2006, 08:56 PM

ha! someone finally did what i had abandonned in my bike design a long time ago. It's simply an idler freely mounted to an arm that pivots about the main pivot. The position of that idler is maintained by the chain tension, allowing the idler to move in a position that reduces chain 'lengthening'. It was actually one of my original premises for the design (and some projects), but never got tested tho. Never published this pic before either, taken april 2003 just after first assembly, the front end didnt get built until later in the year. Parts werent even anodized yet....

zedro- did you make that yourself? It's .... Beautiful. Seriously, thats pretty sweet.

wingman24

01-22-2006, 11:53 AM

get the morewood, I've ridden them both, and the ride is very similar, but the 224 costs more, so why pay more money for a bike that isn't any better. and isn't as depedable. the through axle pivot design is what would sell me. the 224 is one of the loudest, sqeaky bikes I've tryed, and the morewood is like a panther, Quite.

E.T.

01-22-2006, 12:45 PM

My vote is for the Morewood. Those guys build a sweet bike and they went out of there way to support I think 5 top Junior Semi-pro and Pro racers throughout the Norba Nats. Heck, they even helped me out when I was in a bind (and I ride for Specialized!). They are good people and sell a quality product. They are at the races, supporting their riders, and putting there money back into the sport. Plus you can get the DH bike with zebra stripes... :)

Transcend

01-22-2006, 12:59 PM

and isn't as depedable. the through axle pivot design is what would sell me. the 224 is one of the loudest, sqeaky bikes I've tryed

From these 3 statements, you clearly have no clue as to what you are talking about.

-The orange is one of the most dependable bikes on the market.
-The welded through axle on the 224 is the stiffest/most reliable way to do a single pivot.
-properly maintained, it's dead silent.

Does this mean the morewood isn't good? No. It simply means you have never ridden a 224 and are talking out of your ass.

tomvan72

01-22-2006, 12:59 PM

zedro

01-22-2006, 02:19 PM

-The welded through axle on the 224 is the stiffest/most reliable way to do a single pivot.

i doubt that highly (i can think of a few better systems), but it would certainly be one of the cheaper ways of going about it.

Transcend

01-22-2006, 02:38 PM

i doubt that highly (i can think of a few better systems), but it would certainly be one of the cheaper ways of going about it.

Compare it to the slip in through axle system on any other single pivot out there. It is MUCH stiffer. End of story.

Sherpa

01-22-2006, 02:39 PM

There will be a few Morewood guys and gals out west in Feb. Check out the Fontana race on Feb12th or so and then Bootleg Canyon the 18th and 19th. The week between they will be hanging out somewhere in btween rding hopefully! If you want to test one out hook up with them.

I'd love to ride one. Do you know that the wheelbase is on the small vs. large and what size you would suggest for someone whos 5'11". I'm on a medium V10 right now and it fit's me perfectly.

tomvan72

01-22-2006, 02:53 PM

I'd love to ride one. Do you know that the wheelbase is on the small vs. large and what size you would suggest for someone whos 5'11". I'm on a medium V10 right now and it fit's me perfectly.
At 5'11" you will be in the middle of the 2 sizes. I am 6'2" and ride the large. I too used to ride a medium turner and specialized. Geritt B is 5'11" and he rides a special built small. A test ride will be the best thing. the wheel base is roughly 46" on the large. It is some what adjustable and it will also depend on your fork choice. The small wheelbase I have not measured. I can chek for you later.

Sherpa

01-22-2006, 03:07 PM

At 5'11" you will be in the middle of the 2 sizes. I am 6'2" and ride the large. I too used to ride a medium turner and specialized. Geritt B is 5'11" and he rides a special built small. A test ride will be the best thing. the wheel base is roughly 46" on the large. It is some what adjustable and it will also depend on your fork choice. The small wheelbase I have not measured. I can chek for you later.

Good man. Do you guys have both sizes in stock right now and what about getting with a DHX?

tomvan72

01-22-2006, 03:09 PM

there are just a few of each left. The shocks are on order. Should be in stock in a week or so. give me a PM and I can give you my email address

Jm_

01-22-2006, 03:30 PM

-The welded through axle on the 224 is the stiffest/most reliable way to do a single pivot.
lol..

If you want to look at the "stiffest" way to do a single pivot, look at foes. Way different than orange.

Foes uses a lower pivot, so the chainstay and seatstay members are shorter. They use a triangulated rear end usually. Asym work around the BB to allow a shorter BB and stiffer junctions. Swinglink to increase the rigidity and overcome the biggest problem with monopivot bikes, the fact that sideways deflections cause the swingarm to flex back and forth and load the shock. A thru-axle wouldn't solve this at all, in fact it could make it worse. The swing link is the only way to combat this. The rear end of the bike acts like a big lever sideways. No matter how big orange makes the pivot or swingarm, it will never be as stiff as when you add a simple swing link.

Neither the orange or the morewood are the "stiffest" way to do a single pivot. They are simple ways to do single pivots though. Love that pedal feedback.

zedro

01-22-2006, 05:06 PM

Compare it to the slip in through axle system on any other single pivot out there. It is MUCH stiffer. End of story.

uhh, no. A heavy press fit axle is just as stiff as a welded one if theres no seperation of the axle and sleave under load (like single crown forks). Now replace that aluminum axle with a properly toleranced steel or Ti one and already you have a stiffer setup.

Outboard (swingarm mounted) bearing setups also rely on the individual bearing to transmit torque on each side, whereas an inboard setup uses bearings in tandem and the swingarm can solidly be bolter to the axle. Analogous to this is the inboard swingarm like the Turner DHR or ElCuervo; these systems are mechanically more efficient because the bearings arent isolated. This is why cranksets have the bearing mounted between the frame and axle and not between the axle and crankarm.

Welding is an easy way to get press-fit stiffness without the bother of tolerancing. Only thing is you're limited to using the frame material instead of hardened axles, and welding creates another fatigue point because of the HAZ. I know Oranges marketing stance says welded = stiffest, but just cause theres a patent on it doesnt mean there arent better ways.

biker3

01-22-2006, 05:12 PM

uhh, no. A heavy press fit axle is just as stiff as a welded one if theres no seperation of the axle and sleave under load (like single crown forks). Now replace that aluminum axle with a properly toleranced steel or Ti one and already you have a stiffer setup.

Outboard (swingarm mounted) bearing setups also rely on the individual bearing to transmit torque on each side, whereas an inboard setup uses bearings in tandem and the swingarm can solidly be bolter to the axle. Analogous to this is the inboard swingarm like the Turner DHR or ElCuervo; these systems are mechanically more efficient because the bearings arent isolated. This is why cranksets have the bearing mounted between the frame and axle and not between the axle and crankarm.

Welding is an easy way to get press-fit stiffness without the bother of tolerancing. Only thing is you're limited to using the frame material instead of hardened axles, and welding creates another fatigue point because of the HAZ. I know Oranges marketing stance says welded = stiffest, but just cause theres a patent on it doesnt mean there arent better ways.

Well this is all true, unless of course you and your team are sponsered by Orange.

Transcend

01-22-2006, 05:14 PM

Well this is all true, unless of course you and your team are sponsered by Orange.

or you know, have actually ridden the bike. :rolleyes:

biker3

01-22-2006, 05:16 PM

or you know, have actually ridden the bike. :rolleyes:

Well I've ridden my Gemini DH and I can honestly say it IS the stiffest bike in the world, bar none.

zedro

01-22-2006, 05:20 PM

Well I've ridden my Gemini DH and I can honestly say it IS the stiffest bike in the world, bar none.

which proves that anyone and everyones bike is the stiffest at any given moment :D

well exept mine but anyways.....

al-irl

01-22-2006, 06:06 PM

I have a Morewood Prime 8. The Predecessor to the Izumu. Its great its almost bombproof. The Orange is also a great bike but defenitly built with making it as light as possible in mind. I think it suits a rider who has some sort of deal from Orange than someone who buys one from a shop. The 223s are well known for going through swingarms at a fare rate. They tend to fail along the weld where the swingarm flares out for the 150mm rear hub. Ive seen this happen on 2 occasions and its led to nasty crashes. I also know of other people i ride with and race against break swingarms repeatedly. The 222 also suffered from cracking along the welds where the shock mounts to the front end. Ive seen this on quite a few oranges. From what ive seen of the 224 on the quick ride i had of one, its basicly a lighter version of the 222/223 with a few geometry tweaks. For me making it lighter is fine if you can keep the strength, but the Oranges are far from bombproof at the best of times. The Moorewood is a little bit heavier but i reckon stronger. There also great to deal with but so are Orange having previously owned a MR O which the swingarm broke on. They where cool enough to deal with when i contacted them.

What i would consider is this. Do you want the lightest bike or the one that will give you the least trouble. Also the extra cash for the Orange could be put towards a riding holiday or just lots of beer.

Personally I would take the Morewood. I ride/race in Ireland and work in the bike trade here. Orange 222/223s are the most common DH bikes here they out number everything else by about 4 to 1. So I have a fair bit of experience and know what im talking about.

Also as far as the noise thing goes, Oranges sound like bags of hammers going down the trail thanks to the stones banging off the hollow front end. Nothing you can do about it. Theres loads of other bikes that suffer from this fate. Its not a majorly bad thing just a little bit of a head wreck.

Thats enough of my ranting. What ever bike you get ride it like you stole it and enjoy it.

Jm_

01-22-2006, 07:43 PM

Well I've ridden my Gemini DH and I can honestly say it IS the stiffest bike in the world, bar none.
That only applies though if the world consists of only your gemini.

S.G.D

01-22-2006, 09:52 PM

ok i didn't read the thread, but i just wanted to give my opinion of the 224, since i rode one at the end of last year.

it's amazing. and im not just saying that to make fraser happy. it truely is an amazing piece of work. the 223, my first bike from orange was great, but it had it's draw backs. it didn't pedal terribly great, and it was nearly impossible to manual, and only now do i realize how nice a racked out head angle is.

the 224 is all the 223 was, but better and with the addtional ability to pedal and manual with the best of them. i didn't find the length the monster to be a draw back, it found it's way through the tightest of swtich backs. one of the best parts about the 224 is not just the stellar performance, but the weight of the thing! i havn't officially weighed my bike, but its easily and i mean very easily sub 39 lbs with DH tubes. everyone at the race i attended with it was blown away, and they aren't riding scrapers.

the racked out head angle (which is now even more adjustable than the 223) is amazing. it felt a bit foreign at first, but after sending some gnarly lines it's way, i love it.

it's a great bike, and i cant wait to get back on it. it's so much ****ing fun!

just noticed some people questioning the stifness of this bike. there should be no questuon about this...you're not going to be flexing this thing unless maybe you happen to be chris kovarik.