is the right to religious beliefs becoming too much of a problem? [Archive]

LordOpie

12-01-2005, 01:36 PM

ST. LOUIS - Walgreen Co. said it has put four Illinois pharmacists in the St. Louis area on unpaid leave for refusing to fill prescriptions for emergency contraception in violation of a state rule.

The four cited religious or moral objections to filling prescriptions for the morning-after pill and "have said they would like to maintain their right to refuse to dispense, and in Illinois that is not an option," Walgreen spokeswoman Tiffani Bruce said.

...

At least six other pharmacists have sued over the rule, claiming it forces them to violate their religious beliefs.

link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051130/ap_on_re_us/birth_control_pharmacists;_ylt=AmjzzXN_lZMPruPMMti Pw7is0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MjBwMWtkBHNlYwM3MTg-)

Should a person be forced to do part of their job if it conflicts with their beliefs?

fluff

12-01-2005, 01:38 PM

They should get a different job. Or be encouraged to do so...

Old Man G Funk

12-01-2005, 01:42 PM

The problem is that they are trying to inflict their beliefs on the people around them. If they can't fulfill the duties of being a pharmacist without pushing their agenda on all those around them, they should find a different line of work.

LordOpie

12-01-2005, 01:42 PM

Old Man G Funk

12-01-2005, 01:45 PM

Tenchiro

12-01-2005, 01:46 PM

Sounds like they need to find a new line of work, instead of imposing their beliefs on others.

Tenchiro

12-01-2005, 01:47 PM

Walgreens was under no obligation to relocate them, period. In fact, I don't like that they did that. Instead of getting rid of someone who is pushing their religion on those around them and because of it can't perform at the job, Walgreens is going to simply send them elsewhere where that person can do it to someone else? That doesn't seem like a good option.

Religion is a protected class under the law. You can't fire someone because of it.

fluff

12-01-2005, 01:49 PM

Religion is a protected class under the law. You can't fire someone because of it.

Can't you fire them for not doing their jobb if they claim it is against their religion then?

kidwoo

12-01-2005, 01:50 PM

well, Walgreens offered to relocate them to another state. But should Walgreens feel the need to make them such an offer? Should someone have to uproot their life to get a new job?

Supposed a chicken processing plant started doing pork? Should an islamic worker be forced to handle pork?

meh.......victim victim victim...........

I think it's cool that walgreens would even go that far and not just fire them.

They shouldn't pander in an industry just because someone morally unable to fufill thier job duties insists they should be in the field. I'm not demanding to be let into the military just so I can b1tch about being made to shoot people later on.

LordOpie

12-01-2005, 01:51 PM

Walgreens was under no obligation to relocate them, period. In fact, I don't like that they did that. Instead of getting rid of someone who is pushing their religion on those around them and because of it can't perform at the job, Walgreens is going to simply send them elsewhere where that person can do it to someone else? That doesn't seem like a good option.
well, not to get off-track here, but that's what the church did with their problems.

Do we know that these pharmacists pushed their religion -or- simply refused to do part of their job?

Again, what about the islamic meat processing dude?

Where's the line?

LordOpie

12-01-2005, 01:52 PM

Can't you fire them for not doing their jobb if they claim it is against their religion then?
You can fire them for not doing their job, period. Yes. But should you?

Obviously, this case is more clear-cut then others since there's a state law specifically saying they must fill said prescriptions.

kidwoo

12-01-2005, 01:53 PM

So at my job at mcdonalds do I have a right to refuse food because I think some fat dude has "had enough" and it's morally wrong for him to keep it up?

LordOpie

12-01-2005, 01:53 PM

meh.......victim victim victim...........

I think it's cool that walgreens would even go that far and not just fire them.

They shouldn't pander in an industry just because someone morally unable to fufill thier job duties insists they should be in the field. I'm not demanding to be let into the military just so I can b1tch about being made to shoot people later on.
In their defense, they probably got their degrees and careers rolling before the drug was even in development.

Old Man G Funk

12-01-2005, 01:54 PM

Religion is a protected class under the law. You can't fire someone because of it.
It's not that simple, because they are violating the rights of others.

Old Man G Funk

12-01-2005, 01:55 PM

well, not to get off-track here, but that's what the church did with their problems.

Do we know that these pharmacists pushed their religion -or- simply refused to do part of their job?

Again, what about the islamic meat processing dude?

Where's the line?
Yes, they are pushing their religious thoughts on others and violating the rights of the patients in the process.

Changleen

12-01-2005, 01:58 PM

Stupid religious c@nts. I'd fire them on the spot.

fluff

12-01-2005, 01:59 PM

If they can't be fired I'm gonna move me to Illinois and start a new religion that forbids me doing anything I consider immoral. Which would be pretty much anything at all.

Of course I'll need a highly paid job first...

LordOpie

12-01-2005, 02:02 PM

what about a doctor who believes abortion is wrong, goes to work for a hospital that didn't do abortions, then started doing them? Should the doctor be forced to do the procedure?

kidwoo

12-01-2005, 02:03 PM

In their defense, they probably got their degrees and careers rolling before the drug was even in development.

Regardless of when they got their credentials, their job is to dispense medication, NOT decide who deserves what medication in particular......that's someone else's job. If they have a serious enough problem with it, it's their duty to themselves to find another field.

I studied biochemistry and chemical engineering in undergrad and grad school respectively. After enough interships between semesters and serious investigation of some of the companies I was interviewing with, I very meticulously chose who I could morally handle working for......point being, most of them I couldn't stomach. These whiners can do the same thing if they think they're killing babies or whatever the hell their problem is. Like I said, I think walgreens is being pretty accomodating.

Changleen

12-01-2005, 02:06 PM

what about a doctor who believes abortion is wrong, goes to work for a hospital that didn't do abortions, then started doing them? Should the doctor be forced to do the procedure?If abortion is legal, then yes. He needs to do his job or get the f*ck out. His beliefs don't overide the law. That's why we have laws. Otherwise as a murderer I could just claim it's my religious belief that led me to murder and get off scott free. In reality if I claimed this I'd be locked up as a mental case.

Silver

12-01-2005, 02:08 PM

Religion is a protected class under the law. You can't fire someone because of it.

Does that mean if I get a job as a pastor, I can let everyone know I'm an atheist and then sue when I get fired?

This is getting sticky...

Old Man G Funk

12-01-2005, 02:10 PM

If abortion is legal, then yes. He needs to do his job or get the f*ck out. His beliefs don't overide the law. That's why we have laws. Otherwise as a murderer I could just claim it's my religious belief that led me to murder and get off scott free. In reality if I claimed this I'd be locked up as a mental case.
Spot on.

Changleen

12-01-2005, 02:11 PM

Religion is a protected class under the law. You can't fire someone because of it.Note quite - You can't fire someone for holding a religious point of view, but if they act upon it and that action is at odds with the law of the land then they can eat a dick.

fluff

12-01-2005, 02:13 PM

Note quite - You can't fire someone for holding a religious point of view, but if they act upon it and that action is at odds with the law of the land then they can eat a dick.
Ewww. A harsh punishment...

Tenchiro

12-01-2005, 02:13 PM

Note quite - You can't fire someone for holding a religious point of view, but if they act upon it and that action is at odds with the law of the land then they can eat a dick.

I am betting that in this day and age, if you fired someone and it had anything to do with religion you would lose your shirt in court.

ohio

12-01-2005, 02:14 PM

what about a doctor who believes abortion is wrong, goes to work for a hospital that didn't do abortions, then started doing them? Should the doctor be forced to do the procedure?
They can pick a different specialty or be transferred to a department where that is no longer one of their responsibilities, but the onus would be on the doctor to adapt.

Changleen

12-01-2005, 02:18 PM

I am betting that in this day and age, if you fired someone and it had anything to do with religion you would lose your shirt in court.Hopefully not even an American jury would see things in such ****ed PC colouring.

Silver

12-01-2005, 02:23 PM

LordOpie

12-01-2005, 02:26 PM

but, uhh, you don't have titties?

kidwoo

12-01-2005, 02:29 PM

but, uhh, you don't have titties?

Paraplegic.

Tenchiro

12-01-2005, 02:29 PM

Hopefully not even an American jury would see things in such ****ed PC colouring.

Under Title 7 religion, along with race, sex color national origin is a protected class though. Atheism included.

I don't think Hormel could fire a muslim for refusing to work in the pork and beans line, any more than Walgreens could fire these guys for refusing to fill a perscription.

I would think that they would have to offer them lateral moves, but leave themselves open to a lawsuit if they canned them.

Not that I am a lawyer or anything. So I could be wrong.

Changleen

12-01-2005, 02:30 PM

Back on topic, isn't there an exception for gender based discrimination laws for a bona fide job requirement (which means, for example, that I can't sue because I didn't get hired as a dancer at a titty bar...)

I would imagine that would also apply in religious circumstances, no?I'd say that's wrong. You choose your religion, but you don't choose to have titties or not. Well, actually these days you could choose titties but then you could work in a titty bar.

Changleen

12-01-2005, 02:39 PM

Under Title 7 religion, along with race, sex color national origin is a protected class though. Atheism included.

I don't think Hormel could fire a muslim for refusing to work in the pork and beans line, any more than Walgreens could fire these guys for refusing to fill a perscription.

I would think that they would have to offer them lateral moves, but leave themselves open to a lawsuit if they canned them.

Not that I am a lawyer or anything. So I could be wrong.Religion should not be classed in with race sex and colour. It's a totally different thing. You can't choose race sex or colour, (generally) but you can choose your religion and change it as easily.

What if I have a job in a pork slaughterhouse then decide to become a Jew? Is the pork place responsible for finding me a new job? **** no.

Tenchiro

12-01-2005, 02:42 PM

Religion should not be classed in with race sex and colour. It's a totally different thing. You can't choose race sex or colour, (generally) but you can choose your religion and change it as easily.

What if I have a job in a pork slaughterhouse then decide to become a Jew? Is the pork place responsible for finding me a new job? **** no.

I totally agree.

LordOpie

12-01-2005, 02:42 PM

What if I have a job in a pork slaughterhouse then decide to become a Jew? Is the pork place responsible for finding me a new job? **** no.
but what if the situation was reversed... a jew in a chicken house who starts doing pork?

Is it the same... do it or get a new job?

kidwoo

12-01-2005, 02:45 PM

but what if the situation was reversed... a jew in a chicken house who starts doing pork?

Is it the same... do it or get a new job?

You obviously keep the job and get over that whole quoran thing. Only an idiot doesn't like bacon..........and they should be shot........with porkchops.

Changleen

12-01-2005, 02:47 PM

You obviously keep the job and get over that whole quoran thing. Only an idiot doesn't like bacon..........and they should be shot........with porkchops.LMAO!

fluff

12-01-2005, 02:48 PM

but what if the situation was reversed... a jew in a chicken house who starts doing pork?

Is it the same... do it or get a new job?

Hold on, the guy running the chicken house should fire his ass if his jew starts branching out into other meat products.

LordOpie

12-01-2005, 02:49 PM

Hold on, the guy running the chicken house should fire his ass if his jew starts branching out into other meat products.
what if he was making his boss even more money? We jews are good at that.

And by we, I mean jews other than me, apparently.

kidwoo

12-01-2005, 02:54 PM

Hold on, the guy running the chicken house should fire his ass if his jew starts branching out into other meat products.

I just want to start finding more contextual justification for the phrase "his jew".:p

Changleen

12-01-2005, 02:55 PM

but what if the situation was reversed... a jew in a chicken house who starts doing pork?

Is it the same... do it or get a new job?I should think in that case the right thing would be for the porkhouse to offer the jew alternative work within the house, either up or down, but running a viable business that supports the livelihoods of many people is more important than the irrational beliefs of a single individual.

If the jew gets lucky there is an opening for them in distribution or a clerical function, if not they get to sweep up in the evening. There should not be a situation where the jew gets a free ride because the business has evolved.

fluff

12-01-2005, 02:55 PM

what if he was making his boss even more money? We jews are good at that.

And by we, I mean jews other than me, apparently.
So if I convert there's no guarantee of riches? Only racial discrimination? Doesn't sound like such a good idea after all.

Changleen

12-01-2005, 02:57 PM

what if he was making his boss even more money? We jews are good at that.

And by we, I mean jews other than me, apparently.Yeah, well you don't even capitalise your own irration belief set. I mean, c'mon! What sort of jew are you?

LordOpie

12-01-2005, 03:00 PM

"his jew" http://www.cripplefight.com/smileys/signlol.gif

"You're my boy jew" ~ Old School

LordOpie

12-01-2005, 03:05 PM

Yeah, well you don't even capitalise your own irration belief set. I mean, c'mon! What sort of jew are you?

I'm the diet jew of evil

Changleen

12-01-2005, 03:11 PM

Have you ever done the jew?

Silver

12-01-2005, 03:13 PM

I think it's time to throw the Jew down the well.

Where's Borat when you need him?

fluff

12-01-2005, 03:14 PM

I like Mountain Jew

Tenchiro

12-01-2005, 03:15 PM

I'm the diet jew of evil

Jew so crazy!

LordOpie

12-01-2005, 03:16 PM

I like Mountain Jew
Dude, you do realize that's just me pissin' in a bottle, yeah?

fluff

12-01-2005, 03:23 PM

Dude, you do realize that's just me pissin' in a bottle, yeah?
do you do draught?

manimal

12-01-2005, 11:35 PM

Instead of getting rid of someone who is pushing their religion on those around them and because of it can't perform at the job,

whoa! do you realize what you are saying? they didn't PUSH religion on anyone, this action that goes against what they believe was PUSHED on them.

i'll try to analogize this but it's not quite the same. lets say you work out our beloved walmart in the home/garden area. you are a passionate anti-gun advocate due to your sister being shot by accident in a friends home. you understand that guns are being sold in your store but you've learned to deal with it because you love your job and you're not directly linked to the sale of the guns. so one day, you're told that you are being moved to the sporting goods department and that you'll be required to sell guns. you refuse and are fired.

so who's forcing what on who. maybe they should get another job because the supreme court does not see christianity as a religion worth protecting anymore. but don't dare say that they're forcing religion on anyone.

Silver

12-02-2005, 12:13 AM

i'll try to analogize this but it's not quite the same. lets say you work out our beloved walmart in the home/garden area. you are a passionate anti-gun advocate due to your sister being shot by accident in a friends home. you understand that guns are being sold in your store but you've learned to deal with it because you love your job and you're not directly linked to the sale of the guns. so one day, you're told that you are being moved to the sporting goods department and that you'll be required to sell guns. you refuse and are fired.

Horrible analogy. A better one would be your passionate anti-gun advocate gettting a job at a gun store. And then getting his ass fired, because he won't sell guns.

blt2ride

12-02-2005, 01:18 AM

Does that mean if I get a job as a pastor, I can let everyone know I'm an atheist and then sue when I get fired?

This is getting sticky...

Yeah, this is a pretty convoluted situation, that is going to get very sticky. I see a lot of our tax dollars going to fight this one in the courts.

My opinion, they need to fulfill the requirements and obligations of their job. From a company's stand point, if they are refusing to do what they are asked, assuming it is legal and within the scope of their employment, which it clearly is, they can be terminated for failing to work as directed. On the other hand, once religion gets mixed into the mess, it kind of changes everything...this one is going to be interesting. To be honest, I'm kind of shocked Walgreens has decided to suspend without pay...

manimal

12-02-2005, 01:57 AM

Horrible analogy. A better one would be your passionate anti-gun advocate gettting a job at a gun store. And then getting his ass fired, because he won't sell guns.

not really. it's difficult to make an analogy that encompasses the passion that some feel when a direct link to human life is involved. pharmacists have no problem selling 99.9% of the drugs that they have been selling for years. they probably got into the job for a love of medicine, helping people or maybe they thought it was a cool job. suddenly, the drug companies come out with a pill that kills fetal humans.....(this is not a debate of when a fetus is a baby....just pointing out that is what they believe) and then they're made to sell said drug. i guess a better analogy would be for me. love being a cop, believe in what i do. then one day, legislation comes out that makes any open display of affiliation with certain religions an arrestable offense. i would not enforce that law, even though it would probably mean my job, it would be against my beliefs to persecute someone based on their religious affiliation.

the point is, the pharmacists have not, in any way, PUSHED their religion on anyone. it's all fine and dandy to aggressively preach alternative lifestyles and acceptance of other religions,but if a christian stands up for what he/she believes they're suddenly pushing religion. pretty crummy double standard if you ask me.

ohio

12-02-2005, 11:10 AM

the point is, the pharmacists have not, in any way, PUSHED their religion on anyone.
They have affected someone's health and safety in a time-sensitive situation while under legal obligation to perform a task. I don't care what you want to call it, I wouldn't just fire them, I would pull their licenses.

ohio

12-02-2005, 11:16 AM

it's all fine and dandy to aggressively preach alternative lifestyles and acceptance of other religions,but if a christian stands up for what he/she believes they're suddenly pushing religion. pretty crummy double standard if you ask me.

Seriously, I laugh every time you write this. Do you really feel you're oppressed? Do you honestly see people "aggressively preach" alternative lifestyles? You live in NC... are these alternative lifestyles about drinking moonshine and boning your sister? I live in what you would probably call a hot-bed of alternative lifestyles, and I have never been encouraged, let alone preached at, by anyone OTHER than evangelical Christians, Nazarenes, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other folks loosely self-affiliated with Jesus.

This has nothing to do with the pharmacist being a Christian, and everything to do with someone no longer willing or able to perform the task for which they are paid AND legally responsible.

fluff

12-02-2005, 11:20 AM

I have never been encouraged, let alone preached at, by anyone OTHER than evangelical Christians, Nazarenes, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other folks loosely self-affiliated with Jesus.

Sometimes when I walk past someone loudly preaching Jesus' message in my local town centre I am tempted to set up opposite preaching why I think it's a load of baloney. Anyone else feel that way?

I've not succumbed yet because I'm a very tolerant guy, but the next time I see one of 'em I'm gonna rip off his ears and shove 'em down his throat.

Silver

12-02-2005, 11:24 AM

not really. it's difficult to make an analogy that encompasses the passion that some feel when a direct link to human life is involved. pharmacists have no problem selling 99.9% of the drugs that they have been selling for years. they probably got into the job for a love of medicine, helping people or maybe they thought it was a cool job. suddenly, the drug companies come out with a pill that kills fetal humans.....(this is not a debate of when a fetus is a baby....just pointing out that is what they believe) and then they're made to sell said drug.

You did read this part, didn't you:

A rule imposed by Gov. Rod Blagojevich in April requires Illinois pharmacies that sell contraceptives approved by the U.S.
Food and Drug Administration to fill prescriptions for emergency birth control. Pharmacies that do not fill prescriptions for any type of contraception are not required to follow the rule.

Seriously, you aren't even standing on the stub of one leg in this argument. It should also be pointed out that there have been cases recently where pharmacists wouldn't fill regular contraception either. The whole "morning after pill is an abortion!" thing is a smokescreen for a clearly religious belief.

Andyman_1970

12-02-2005, 12:17 PM

Sometimes when I walk past someone loudly preaching Jesus' message in my local town centre I am tempted to set up opposite preaching why I think it's a load of baloney. Anyone else feel that way?

Yep..............except for the baloney part.........LOL

Old Man G Funk

12-05-2005, 05:43 AM

whoa! do you realize what you are saying? they didn't PUSH religion on anyone, this action that goes against what they believe was PUSHED on them.

i'll try to analogize this but it's not quite the same. lets say you work out our beloved walmart in the home/garden area. you are a passionate anti-gun advocate due to your sister being shot by accident in a friends home. you understand that guns are being sold in your store but you've learned to deal with it because you love your job and you're not directly linked to the sale of the guns. so one day, you're told that you are being moved to the sporting goods department and that you'll be required to sell guns. you refuse and are fired.

so who's forcing what on who. maybe they should get another job because the supreme court does not see christianity as a religion worth protecting anymore. but don't dare say that they're forcing religion on anyone.
Your analogy doesn't hold because the pharmacists chose their line of work, they didn't get transfered there.

And, yes, they are pushing their religion on others, especially considering that they are overstepping the bounds of their job function in order to do it. The decision to medicate is made between the doctor and the patient, not the doctor, patient, and pharmacist. The pharmacists fulfills the prescription and double checks the doctor's work to make sure that the doctor has not made an error that can harm the patient (i.e. prescribing two pills that counteract each other in harmful ways.) The pharmacist has NO prescriptive power, nor does (s)he have the power to intrude on the doctor patient relationship. So, yes, they are pushing their religion on others, because they are going way out of their way and outside the bounds of the job in order to do it.

MudGrrl

12-05-2005, 10:28 AM

You best bet if some Nimrod such as Karen Brauer (http://www.pfli.org/) decided that they aren't going to fill my birth control prescription based on 'morals', I'm going to do everything I can to make sure they aren't filling any prescriptions....

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1593/mengesjohn7gy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Druggists suspended in debate over pill (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/metroeast/story/6694D70D17BEA283862570C9001884A9?OpenDocument)

"Menges, an anti-abortion Catholic who lives in Edwardsville, said he drew the line at dispensing emergency contraception commonly known as the morning-after pill because he views it as a form of abortion."

And, as some have pointed out, they aren't stopping at the morning after pill, some pharmacists are refusing to give out any birth control pills..

Pharmacists refuse (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-08-druggists-pill_x.htm)
"In Madison, Wis., a pharmacist faces possible disciplinary action by the state pharmacy board for refusing to transfer a woman's prescription for birth-control pills to another druggist or to give the slip back to her. He would not refill it because of his religious views."

Now I have to avoid these pharmacies, because I don't know if I'm going to get my prescription or a bible and a lecture..

Target (http://www.saveroe.com/node/1714)
Eckerd (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-08-druggists-pill_x.htm)

and this also introduces the question of rape.
What happens when a woman gets raped? Would one of these 'moral' pharmacists refuse her the morning after pill? What then?

oh, yeah, as an end note, Karen Brauer (http://www.rightgrrl.com/dec97grrl/)
happily dispenses viagra to help "a whole lot of old married men get lucky" (http://www.newsandletters.org/Issues/2005/May-June/WWW_May-June_05.htm)