T is for Tookie, that's good enough for me....

[Damn True]

So should der guvinator commute his sentance or what?


Personally, I couldn't care less if the guy wrote 1000 kids books, and the Nobel nomination means nothing. If somoene wanted to, they could by rule nominate Pol-Pot for the peace prize just as easilly.

Funny how the Hollywood dorks find it so terrible to end the life of a vicious killer yet have no problem with doing the same thing to an innocent child.

[valve bouncer]

Been posted noob. Try to keep up will ya.

[ohio]

Personally, I couldn't care less if the guy wrote 1000 kids books, and the Nobel nomination means nothing. If somoene wanted to, they could by rule nominate Pol-Pot for the peace prize just as easilly.

So do you think he deserves to die?

[Echo]

So the whole forgiveness and repenting thing is right out the window.

[Ciaran]

Tough question you ask, there.

Personally until I can bring someone back to life I feel that I have no business killing them. Who am I (or any of you) to judge who should live or die?

I don't condone what he did.

[blt2ride]

So do you think he deserves to die?

Writing some kids' books doesn't take away from what he did. He was convicted of killing 4 people; however, one could only imagine all of terrrible things he did that he was never held accountable for. Tookie and one of his friends started one of the most violent street gangs in all of Southern California.

Snoop Dogg has been publicly defending Tookie over the past year. It's also a well known fact that Snoop used to run with the crips before he became a crap (I mean rap) star. I was watching a protest last night on the news, and a majority of the people who showed up were a bunch of gangsters, wearing all their blue rags, hats, etc.

Nonetheless, as it sits right now, Tookie is going to be executed as planned.

[sanjuro]

I should point out if Arnold commutes his sentence, it won't be on the streets, but just life in jail...

[ohio]

Writing some kids' books doesn't take away from what he did.
I didn't say that it did. I have no problem with the death penalty as punishment (I do take issue with the Death Penalty as implemented in our justice system, but that's a separate issue). I'm asking DT if he thinks Tookie deserves to die.

[kidwoo]

I didn't say that it did. I have no problem with the death penalty as punishment (I do take issue with the Death Penalty as implemented in our justice system, but that's a separate issue). I'm asking DT if he thinks Tookie deserves to die.

I got the boat, the rods and the beer cooler........looks like you've got the bait.

[Changleen]

Death penalty = Wrong.

[kidwoo]

Death penalty = Wrong.

But genocidal purging of the "weak" = right?????

[Changleen]

Yup.

Seriously, way to spin what I said. :D There's a difference between 'weak' and 'needing 24hr care, painkillers, breathing assistance and multiple surgeries to live'.

[LordOpie]

Yup.

Seriously, way to spin what I said. :D There's a difference between 'weak' and 'needing 24hr care, painkillers, breathing assistance and multiple surgeries to live'.
so, wait, it's okay to kill off the extremely disabled, but not homocidal psychos?

I guess that's the solution... get the killers to off the weak.

[fluff]

Why not let the homicidal psychos knock off the disabled? We could have a league table...

[Changleen]

so, wait, it's okay to kill off the extremely disabled, but not homocidal psychos?

I guess that's the solution... get the killers to off the weak.It's about sentience and perception. Both cases minimise harm to sentient beings. How would you like to live in permanent agony, only able to survive due to constant medical intervention?

[ohio]

I got the boat, the rods and the beer cooler........looks like you've got the bait.
Dude, how's the storm up there? I'm dying right now, because I NEED to ski but I'm heading to Boston saturday morning...

[DRB]

Why not let the homicidal psychos knock off the disabled? We could have a league table...


Make for a hell of a fantasy league.

[kidwoo]

Dude, how's the storm up there? I'm dying right now, because I NEED to ski but I'm heading to Boston saturday morning...

It's been raining mostly. 2 days of wet snow but about 4 of rain at lake level. If it were snowing there would be about 4-5 feet at lake level. That said, everything above about 7500 is kickin'. Alpine opens tomorrow.

[kidwoo]

Yup.

Seriously, way to spin what I said. :D There's a difference between 'weak' and 'needing 24hr care, painkillers, breathing assistance and multiple surgeries to live'.


Was't trying to spin what you said as much as it really does seem like a contradiction to me. Where does down syndrome fall? How do you determine "suffering" in someone who knows no other life?

[LordOpie]

It's about sentience and perception. Both cases minimise harm to sentient beings. How would you like to live in permanent agony, only able to survive due to constant medical intervention?
wait, are you advocating the state to make those decisions or just the right of patients to make it?

No matter how horrible life is, I wouldn't want someone else to make that decision for me.

[kidwoo]

wait, are you advocating the state to make those decisions or just the right of patients to make it?

No matter how horrible life is, I wouldn't want someone else to make that decision for me.

Not even the president in a special late night executive order overriding state rulings?

I'd be honored.:love:

[Changleen]

wait, are you advocating the state to make those decisions or just the right of patients to make it?

No matter how horrible life is, I wouldn't want someone else to make that decision for me.I should think there should be a line under which it would be judged illegally cruel to keep people alive and a second line under which you'd want to give the choice to the parents. Downs syndrome is probably outside of both of those lines, or arguably in the top end of the second one.

[LordOpie]

I should think there should be a line under which it would be judged illegally cruel to keep people alive and a second line under which you'd want to give the choice to the parents. Downs syndrome is probably outside of both of those lines, or arguably in the top end of the second one.
Are you talking about Teri Schiavo-type situations?

That's what living-wills are for and parents/legal guardians for those under 18yo.

I don't want my govt involved in such a decision, except to the extent of enforcing the individuals wishes.

However, if you're talking about a situation where someone has no one to make that decision, well, that's sticky.

[Changleen]

Um, I was thinking about very serious, very early childhood defects specifically, but I suppose TS would qualify as a parental choice type situation in my book. However, in a situation where all doctors recommend letting her go, and the parents want to keep her alive, the cost is squarely on their shoulders.

I agree in most cases I wouldn't want the Government making these decisions, except for helping define my lines in the first place, but I'd feel much better about a small panel of Doctors making these sorts of choices.

[LordOpie]

Supreme Doctors of the United States.

Dude, where's my spleen.

[kidwoo]

Okay he's whining.

Kill him.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/01/EDG5TG04SF1.DTL

[manimal]

So the whole forgiveness and repenting thing is right out the window.


if you want to bring the "thou shall not kill"/"repentance" bit into it, you might want to do some reading.

"it's up to God to judge/punish"....well, biblically speaking, what has God used to judge/punish throughout history? man. whether it be through some form of judicial system or an army totally obliterating an enemy. it cannot be disputed that the old testament of the Bible has many, many, references to God's judgement and punishment being dealt out through man.

so be for it or against it, but the "capital punishment is a biblical contradiction" argument is bunk.

now, i believe in the death penalty but i do agree that there are some flaws in our judicial system that should be a cause for concern.

[JRogers]

so be for it or against it, but the "capital punishment is a biblical contradiction" argument is bunk.

For every bit of support you find for that, I could find one to refute it. It is not so simple and should not be presented as such. It is a matter of interpretation, not irrefutible fact.

[Echo]

if you want to bring the "thou shall not kill"/"repentance" bit into it, you might want to do some reading.

"it's up to God to judge/punish"....well, biblically speaking, what has God used to judge/punish throughout history? man. whether it be through some form of judicial system or an army totally obliterating an enemy. it cannot be disputed that the old testament of the Bible has many, many, references to God's judgement and punishment being dealt out through man.

so be for it or against it, but the "capital punishment is a biblical contradiction" argument is bunk.

now, i believe in the death penalty but i do agree that there are some flaws in our judicial system that should be a cause for concern.
So is it your opinion that criminals cannot benefit from being in a correctional institution? That a teenager who made some REALLY bad choices cannot realize the errors of his ways and make a genuine effort to atone for his sins and make the world a better place? If that's your line of thinking, why not just kill everyone who is in jail for violent crime? Killing "Tookie" is nothing but a revenge killing disguised as justice, and the only thing it accomplishes is it gives gangs a reason to seek their own revenge. Killing him is feeding the viscious cycle. But I guess it keeps the cops and the courts busy.

[manimal]

So is it your opinion that criminals cannot benefit from being in a correctional institution? That a teenager who made some REALLY bad choices cannot realize the errors of his ways and make a genuine effort to atone for his sins and make the world a better place? If that's your line of thinking, why not just kill everyone who is in jail for violent crime? Killing "Tookie" is nothing but a revenge killing disguised as justice, and the only thing it accomplishes is it gives gangs a reason to seek their own revenge. Killing him is feeding the viscious cycle. But I guess it keeps the cops and the courts busy.


i wasn't debating anything other than justification for the death penalty. you were making a reference to the ignorant view that repentance and forgiveness means that earthly consequences are somehow stricken too. whether he's guilty or not or deserves it or not i don't know. i was just defending the death penalty....for those who need it.

and no....statistically speaking, jails do not rehabilitate. criminals come out better criminals after doing time.

[Echo]

and no....statistically speaking, jails do not rehabilitate. criminals come out better criminals after doing time.
And that's kind of my point. We're looking at an extremely rare case where it appears that jail really did rehabilitate someone. And we're ignoring it. It's not like he's looking to rejoin society. Keeping him in jail the rest of his life, and the notoriety he has achieved for his turning his life around, could actually benefit other prisoners.

[ohio]

it cannot be disputed that the old testament of the Bible has many, many, references to God's judgement and punishment being dealt out through man.
And it cannot be disputed that the new testament has many many references to to importance of forgiveness. Trying to claim the Bible justifies the death penalty is even more ridiculous than claiming that it forbids it. Face it, the Bible tells people what they want to hear. Some people are predisposed to a disciplinarian world view, others are predisposed to a nurturant world view. Give each of them the same situation or the same peice of scripture and you will get opposite results.

Just own up and admit that you want this guy dead, not God.

[LordOpie]

And that's kind of my point. We're looking at an extremely rare case where it appears that jail really did rehabilitate someone. And we're ignoring it. It's not like he's looking to rejoin society. Keeping him in jail the rest of his life, and the notoriety he has achieved for his turning his life around, could actually benefit other prisoners.
:stupid:

[kidwoo]

And that's kind of my point. We're looking at an extremely rare case where it appears that jail really did rehabilitate someone. And we're ignoring it. It's not like he's looking to rejoin society. Keeping him in jail the rest of his life, and the notoriety he has achieved for his turning his life around, could actually benefit other prisoners.

Good points but I guess the argument could be made that if he were to go free, others on death row now have a template to follow......genuine in intention or not. Do what tookie did and don't die?

[fluff]

Good points but I guess the argument could be made that if he were to go free, others on death row now have a template to follow......genuine in intention or not. Do what tookie did and don't die?
If the effects are good does it matter if the intention is motivated by a desire to live rather than a desire to do good?

[kidwoo]

"it's up to God to judge/punish"....well, biblically speaking, what has God used to judge/punish throughout history? man. whether it be through some form of judicial system or an army totally obliterating an enemy. it cannot be disputed that the old testament of the Bible has many, many, references to God's judgement and punishment being dealt out through man.
.

God told me to tell you to quit speaking for him. He said you sound silly.

He also told me to eliminate your people.

Don't you understand you just stated the opinion of people like bin laden?

No......probably not.

[kidwoo]

If the effects are good does it matter if the intention is motivated by a desire to live rather than a desire to do good?

As long as "locked up" is still the alternative and not being released then I guess you're right. Because you could have a desire to live coupled with your ongoing desire to rape and kill 9 year olds which got you there in the first place.

Stay out of society but make some really creative license plates that make the world a better place and you can live.:)

[fluff]

As long as "locked up" is still the alternative and not being released then I guess you're right. Because you could have a desire to live coupled with your ongoing desire to rape and kill 9 year olds which got you there in the first place.

Stay out of society but make some really creative license plates that make the world a better place and you can live.:)

It would be nice if they could somehow be less of a burden on the tax payer, but basically I agree.

[ohio]

It would be nice if they could somehow be less of a burden on the tax payer, but basically I agree.
You want to save money in the criminal justice system, build a society that produces fewer criminals.

Sometimes I look at the policies and legislation we're putting in place, and it feels like we're purposefully creating criminals just so we can feel good about punishing them, all the while bitching and maoning about the cost of that punishment.

[kidwoo]

You want to save money in the criminal justice system, build a society that produces fewer criminals..

I agree. Public firearms for all. Second menmant derf derf

Sometimes I look at the policies and legislation we're putting in place, and it feels like we're purposefully creating criminals just so we can feel good about punishing them, all the while bitching and maoning about the cost of that punishment.

Man that's probably verbatim to some of the stuff hunter s thompson
said about the education cuts, war on drugs and mega prison building contracts going on during reagans' reign.

[manimal]

And that's kind of my point. We're looking at an extremely rare case where it appears that jail really did rehabilitate someone. And we're ignoring it. It's not like he's looking to rejoin society. Keeping him in jail the rest of his life, and the notoriety he has achieved for his turning his life around, could actually benefit other prisoners.


if someone is sentenced to death row....there is no attempt at rehabilitation. a non-life term is where the rehabilitation can work...why bother if the person is never to leave the walls of the prison? if you commit a crime that is heinous enough for society to condemn you to death then why would it suddenly be less offensive after 20 years and allow for a lesser penalty? humanistic forgiveness can be given by the family of the victim and even society, but that does not take away from the fact that consequences must be dealt. what message does it send to our already weak criminal justice system when we just bluff with the death penalty. if we're going to use it and the person is deserving of it at the time then use it....20 years on death row doesn't make them less deserving of it.

[Damn True]

Been posted noob. Try to keep up will ya.


By that logic the mods ought delete all but one of the Religious Hate threads.



And yes, I think cold blooded quadruple murderers who create, support and condone criminal organizations such as the "crips" gang or others like it ought to be sentanced to death........and I think that children who have not commited such crimes against humanity ought not be sentanced to death.

I'm nauseated by the fact that there are people who call themselves human who believe the exact opposite.

[Damn True]

....this just occured to me.

What are the odds that if this animal is executed that his cohorts in South Central LA will riot?

[Changleen]

And yes, I think cold blooded quadruple murderers who create, support and condone criminal organizations such as the "crips" gang or others like it ought to be sentanced to deathSo Bush is going to hang for what he's letting the CIA do?
and I think that children who have not commited such crimes against humanity ought not be sentanced to death.What children? I don't see any children.
I'm nauseated by the fact that there are people who call themselves human who believe the exact opposite.Fundy.

[Echo]

What are the odds that if this animal is executed that his cohorts in South Central LA will riot?
I'd say about 100%.

And when these rioters kill hundreds of innocent people who would have otherwise lived happy lives, and nobody is arrested or prosecuted for those murders because it is damn near impossible to figure out who did what during a riot, will Tookie's death still be justice? Or is it just a viscious cycle of revenge? When will it end?

And this has nothing to do with abortion.

[LordOpie]

I'd say about 100%.

And when these rioters kill hundreds of innocent people who would have otherwise lived happy lives, and nobody is arrested or prosecuted for those murders because it is damn near impossible to figure out who did what during a riot, will Tookie's death still be justice? Or is it just a viscious cycle of revenge? When will it end?

And this has nothing to do with abortion.
yes, but then the terrorists win!!!

[Andyman_1970]

Interesting article on Mr. Tookie...........

Redemption on trial in California
by David Batstone


One man, Stanley "Tookie" Williams, faces execution Tuesday, Dec. 13, at San Quentin State Prison in California. With him our belief in human redemption also sits on the gallows, pending a decision in the clemency hearing conducted by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Williams, a founder of the notorious Crips gang, is charged with the murder of four people in the Los Angeles area in 1979. At the time of the trial, he proclaimed his innocence, a position he maintains today. A jury convicted him wholly on circumstantial evidence; in other words, no eyewitnesses or incontrovertible material evidence linked him to the murders, according to attorney Verna Wefald’s appeal.
In one of the robberies that led to a murder, an accomplice was given clemency for pointing his finger at Williams for the murder. Beyond the self-interest involved, the accomplice's reputation as a truth-teller was less than stellar. The prosecution produced a shell casing tied to the murder weapon found at the motel where Williams was staying. But the science that matched the casing to the weapon was speculative and its results have not been revisited in the intervening years, the Los Angeles Times reported.

I revisit the facts of the case because Schwarzenegger's decision to grant Williams clemency will depend more on the possibility of his innocence - or at least the uncertainty of his guilt - than it will turn on the contribution that Williams has made to society over the last two decades.

That's tragic, because Williams has become a major figure in the gang peace movement. He has co-authored 10 books from Death Row. The message is clear: Violence is never a solution. He urges young gang kids to get out before it destroys them and the lives of their family members. That's a powerful message from one of the founders of the Crips.

Williams first made a public plea to hundreds of gang members who gathered at a Los Angeles hotel in 1993 for a summit called Hands Across Watts. He did not hide his early role in the Crips, but on a prerecorded videotape filmed for the summit told the young gang members that he lamented his history. Recounting this first public event to the San Francisco Chronicle, Williams said, "I told them I never thought I could change my life, that I thought I would be a Crip forever. But I developed common sense, wisdom and knowledge. I changed."

Williams has gone on to build on this witness. In his 1998 prison autobiography Life in Prison, he directed young people to seek an alternative life beyond violence. Prison, he stressed, was no place to spend a life. Two years later he launched the Internet Project for Street Peace. His memoir, Blue Rage, Black Redemption, and the movie, Redemption, came out in 2004.

Williams has a bevy of supporters calling for his clemency. They argue that he has changed thousands of young people's lives, and if allowed to live will continue to be a force for good. His street credibility with gang kids is high, so he can reach them in a way that a teacher or social worker cannot.
In the eyes of the criminal justice system, a redeemed criminal is simply another criminal. I recall my first visit to a federal prison back in seminary when starting a prison chaplain residency. The warden of the prison came to the orientation I shared with other interns. His message was clear to us: "I want you to remember that the prison system today is not about reforming criminals. We are here to punish them."

Redemption, in other words, has no place in our justice system. We do not offer a path for conversion. Once marked for condemnation, an offender's destiny is fixed.

Elsewhere in the world, four Christian Peacemaker Teams members are marked for execution by a radical terrorist group in Iraq. The circumstances are dramatically different, so I hesitate to make the connection. We are appalled by the blind ideology that drives the terrorists and leads them to cheapen the value of human life. In this ideology, the individual is a tool for political expediency.

Don't we want to offer our citizens more in a democracy?

[blt2ride]

....this just occured to me.

What are the odds that if this animal is executed that his cohorts in South Central LA will riot?

That thought has crossed my mind a few times. Since I live in Los Angeles County, I hope we don't have any problems. I remember watching the 1992 riots on TV--it didn't take too long for them to get completely out of control. Although, this would be quite different--it would be gand related. I seriously doubt any of the local bloods would riot for Tookie's life. Not only would it be a riot, but it would probably turn into a gang war...

I haven’t heard what Arnold’s decision was; today was Tookie Williams’ clemency hearing.

[Silver]

By that logic the mods ought delete all but one of the Religious Hate threads.


How's the view from on that cross?

Oh, and to stay on topic, **** Tookie. You helped create the Crips, and you have more than enough blood on your hands for me to sleep easy at night after you die...

[rooftest]

I seriously doubt any of the local bloods would riot for Tookie's life....


Well, that's because he was a crip.

But, if he was convicted on such "shaky" evidence, I'm sure that's why none of his appeals ever got anywhere. :nopity:

[sanjuro]

And that's kind of my point. We're looking at an extremely rare case where it appears that jail really did rehabilitate someone. And we're ignoring it. It's not like he's looking to rejoin society. Keeping him in jail the rest of his life, and the notoriety he has achieved for his turning his life around, could actually benefit other prisoners.
I am always against the death penalty, period.

As long we all agree Tookie should spend the rest of his life in jail. While I do think he has reformed, that does not justify his own murder conviction (which the surviving families have spoken against clemency), as well as his part in the creation of the Crips. I am sure there are many murders he was directly or indirectly involved with.

On a different note, I did read in the SF Chronicle how being on Death Row is advantageous on legal standpoint because there are many anti-death penalty lawyers who will fight your conviction. If you are just a lifer, then you cannot expect much legal help.

[Tattooo]

EXECUTE TOOKIE WILLIAMS!
EYE FOR AN EYE, A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH!
HOW MANY PEOPLE DID THE CRYPTS EXECUTE?
HANG HIM HIGH!!!http://afronetizen.blogs.com/afronetizen/tookie1.jpg

[lonewolfe]

Frankly, I think this animal should die like an animal.

[ridetoofast]

I am always against the death penalty, period.

As long we all agree Tookie should spend the rest of his life in jail. While I do think he has reformed, that does not justify his own murder conviction (which the surviving families have spoken against clemency), as well as his part in the creation of the Crips. I am sure there are many murders he was directly or indirectly involved with.

On a different note, I did read in the SF Chronicle how being on Death Row is advantageous on legal standpoint because there are many anti-death penalty lawyers who will fight your conviction. If you are just a lifer, then you cannot expect much legal help.

really?

so if some thug kidnapped, beat, raped, and killed your mother you'd still let'm slide huh?

if he is redeemed why has he not shown any remorse, claims innonence, and refuses to turn in other memebers.

fvck that pos, kill him and get it over with

[firetoole]

seems like this decision was taken care of along time ago in court

[JRogers]

really?

so if some thug kidnapped, beat, raped, and killed your mother you'd still let'm slide huh?

if he is redeemed why has he not shown any remorse, claims innonence, and refuses to turn in other memebers.

fvck that pos, kill him and get it over with
I cannot answer for sanjuro, but I agreee with his sentiment. I am against the death penalty under all circumstances. Yes, if all those things were done, I would still be against it. And even if the passion of it got the better of me, I would have to consider myself a poor judge in the trial of my mother's killer- that's why judges are to remain impartial and not have a conflict of interest.

I often read about crimes where I would want the criminal to die, but I refuse to be taken into pressing for their death. It's an emotional vs. an intellectual and virtuous reaction.

[blt2ride]

really?

so if some thug kidnapped, beat, raped, and killed your mother you'd still let'm slide huh?

if he is redeemed why has he not shown any remorse, claims innonence, and refuses to turn in other memebers.

fvck that pos, kill him and get it over with

The news just reported that the California Supreme Court, working special hours to address the Toolie Williams' case, has refused to step-in to stop Williams' execution. At this point, it's ALL up to Arnold. Meanwhile, the LAPD is gearing up for any problems--it's going to be interesting to see what happens. At this point, Tookie is still claiming that he is innocent...

[manimal]

....this just occured to me.

What are the odds that if this animal is executed that his cohorts in South Central LA will riot?


odds are high that they will riot, however, it will not be like '92. i've seen LAPD's current civil disorder/riot plan and they're not screwing around. some people WILL be hurt.

[blt2ride]

odds are high that they will riot, however, it will not be like '92. i've seen LAPD's current civil disorder/riot plan and they're not screwing around. some people WILL be hurt.

That's what I'm thinking. I'm sure there will be some protests, and some of those protests will get a bit out of control. However, it won't be like the '92 mess...

[Echo]

fvck that pos, kill him and get it over with
I still haven't heard anyone define what that will solve.

[MTB_Rob_NC]

I still haven't heard anyone define what that will solve.


It would end this debate wouldnt it? :blah:

[blt2ride]

I still haven't heard anyone define what that will solve.

I'm going to say that his victims' families can take some comfort knowing that the person who destroyed their lives paid the ultimate price for what he did.

[MTB_Rob_NC]

I'm going to say that his victims' families can take some comfort knowing that the person who destroyed their lives paid the ultimate price for what he did.


Whatever, my answer was better :nopity:

[blt2ride]

Whatever, my answer was better :nopity:

Yeah, I agree. Both answers are correct.

[Echo]

I'm going to say that his victims' families can take some comfort knowing that the person who destroyed their lives paid the ultimate price for what he did.
So basically it's revenge.

[Ciaran]

I still haven't heard anyone define what that will solve.
That's because it doesn't solve ANYTHING.

Execution does not serve justice, it only serves revenge. And if one thinks "eye for an eye" is "justice" then one has alot to learn.

[stinkyboy]

I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

Honor thy Father and thy Mother

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods.

[rooftest]

odds are high that they will riot, however, it will not be like '92. i've seen LAPD's current civil disorder/riot plan and they're not screwing around. some people WILL be hurt.
:stupid:

Yeah - the LAPD learned their lessons from the "Laker riots" I was working in downtown LA during the Democratic Convention in '00, and the LAPD was kicking some serious ass!

[manimal]

I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

Honor thy Father and thy Mother

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods.

incorrect....original translation reads: THOU SHALT NOT MURDER.

this has been grossly mistranslated through the years.

[Andyman_1970]

incorrect....original translation reads: THOU SHALT NOT MURDER.

this has been grossly mistranslated through the years.

True but Jesus takes that further and says how we are to love unconditionally our enemy and the whole "turn the other cheek" deal......not to mention the whole deal of holding all human life sacred, even the life of criminals.....

[I Are Baboon]

I think Brick should throw a trident at him.

[N8]

Is he dead yet?

[ohio]

incorrect....original translation reads: THOU SHALT NOT MURDER.

this has been grossly mistranslated through the years.

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

So the only thing that makes this NOT murder is that fact that it is not illegal. Humans made the death penalty allowable law, not God. So really we have no idea if the death penalty violates the commandment.

Again, I wish people would just admit it. They want him dead. They want vengeance. The reasons he should/will/must die are neither justified nor vilified by God or the Bible.

[blt2ride]

Is he dead yet?

If Arnold doesn't grant him clemency, Tookie's execution will take place at 12:01 a.m. pacific standard time...

[N8]

9th Court rejects his stay.....

However Jessie Jackson is on the case. :rolleyes:

[fluff]

What bunch of ghouls some of you are...

[N8]

Tookie reaps what he's sown....

[fluff]

Some of what he's sown...

[captainpolution]

t is for tookie
d is for dead
y is for yay

[N8]

The only injustice I see is that the BTK killer automaticly gets a life sentence because there was no death penality when he killed all those people. Same with the Green River Killer. Ted Bundy on the other hand..... zzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapppppppppp!

[PonySoldier]

..... Ted Bundy on the other hand..... zzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapppppppppp!


"Lets have a BundyQue" I believe one sign said outside the prison the night they did him in..

[Reactor]

"Lets have a BundyQue" I believe one sign said outside the prison the night they did him in..


Well, he was a republican. :rolleyes:

[Transcend]

the governator just said no clemency - it just hit the wires.

[N8]

Bye-bye Tookie!

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/12/D8EETVQG0.html

[Westy]

What bunch of ghouls some of you are...


I can understand how some people would support the death penalty but it blows my mind how some freaks seem to get pleasure out of it.

[ridetoofast]

i find it supremely difficult for those that are taking the intellectual/moral high road on this would be able to hold this opinion were they to be family members of someone who was murdered :rolleyes:

[N8]

How come Tookie never admitted killing those four people yet he can say he has been rehabilitated?

[Reactor]

i find it supremely difficult for those that are taking the intellectual/moral high road on this would be able to hold this opinion were they to be family members of someone who was murdered :rolleyes:

Would you want people put to death if you were on death row, and innocent of the crime which put you there? Innocent people have been executed.

I would want the person separated from society, like you would separate a dog that bit someone. The greatest punishment and reform would come from someone who has to confront his crimes and come to terms with them. If they ever do.

I can not endorse the idea that we should put people to death, based on the imperfect system we have. Killing someone just to have the satisfaction of seeing them die would seem to be pretty hollow if you can't be 100% sure they did it.

It also violates every tenant of my religion. My wife wouldn't want me to have someone put to death to avenge her.

[Westy]

i find it supremely difficult for those that are taking the intellectual/moral high road on this would be able to hold this opinion were they to be family members of someone who was murdered :rolleyes:

That is a BS argument. The victim of many crimes would feel that the criminal deserves death. Most people here would probably wish death upon a criminal that stole their bike. That is why punishment is determined by society as a whole and not by the victim.

[Reactor]

How come Tookie never admitted killing those four people yet he can say he has been rehabilitated?


And yet the evil shrub admits his invasion killed 30,000 and he still got a job.

[N8]

Williams was convicted of killing Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at a Los Angeles motel the family owned, and Albert Owens, 26, a 7-Eleven clerk gunned down in Whittier.

[N8]

And yet the evil shrub admits his invasion killed 30,000 and he still got a job.


Better make that 30,001... I'm sure we can blame Tookie's death on that rat bastid too!

:rolleyes:

[ridetoofast]

That is a BS argument. The victim of many crimes would feel that the criminal deserves death. Most people here would probably wish death upon a criminal that stole their bike. That is why punishment is determined by society as a whole and not by the victim.

i was referring specifically to those on this pd forum that opine against the penalty.

edit:
it wasnt intended as an arguement per se, but more of an observation of their self beliefs and how they might weather that paticular storm.

i agree that there are imperfections, but there are also stone cold, absolute cases as well...

[Silver]

i find it supremely difficult for those that are taking the intellectual/moral high road on this would be able to hold this opinion were they to be family members of someone who was murdered :rolleyes:

Dude, you couldn't find the intellectual high road if we got together and drew you a ****ing map...best for you to stay low brow.

[ridetoofast]

brilliant response...brilliant

[pnj]

The only injustice I see is that the BTK killer automaticly gets a life sentence because there was no death penality when he killed all those people. Same with the Green River Killer. Ted Bundy on the other hand..... zzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapppppppppp!

the green river killer didn't get death because of the plea bargin he made. he chose life in prison and agreed to tell prosecutors where a bunch of the bodies were instead of getting death.

[N8]

the green river killer didn't get death because of the plea bargin he made. he chose life in prison and agreed to tell prosecutors where a bunch of the bodies were instead of getting death.


That's right. Wouldn't be surprised if he was killed inside sometime.

[-dustin]

wow, i always thought it was spelled "Crypts"

[blt2ride]

wow, i always thought it was spelled "Crypts"

Crips is short for Crippled. The original members used to intentionally walk with a limp and use canes. Not too sure why, but that was their “thing.” Nonetheless, it seemed to stick, and now they are simply known as Crips.

As for Tookie being the founder of the Crips, that’s actually not entirely true. From what I understand, he was more of the founders’ tool…

[N8]

9 hrs 2min left....

[Changleen]

i was referring specifically to those on this pd forum that opine against the penalty.

edit:
it wasnt intended as an arguement per se, but more of an observation of their self beliefs and how they might weather that paticular storm.
This is why countries have systems of Justice. To deal with the situation in a rational manner. Just because you're personally ready to kill someone about something doesn't make it right.

The death penalty:

a) Is more expensive than life in prison.
b) Has been shown to be used wrongly in many cases.
c) Makes you as bad as the Murderer - often worse as the death penalty is the ultimate 'premeditated murder'.
d) Has been shown to have zero, or even a negative effect on murder rates.

The only rational reason for the death penalty is revenge. Revenge is not justice. Why do you support it?

[pnj]

The death penalty:

a) Is more expensive than life in prison.
b) Has been shown to be used wrongly in many cases.
c) Makes you as bad as the Murderer - often worse as the death penalty is the ultimate 'premeditated murder'.
d) Has been shown to have zero, or even a negative effect on murder rates.

The only rational reason for the death penalty is revenge. Revenge is not justice. Why do you support it?

1. then someone is doing something wrong.
2. shouldn't be used for all cases (ie. we should know with out a doubt the person did the crime, such as john wayne gasey or dommer (both names prolly misspelled:rolleyes: ))
3. some people don't deserve to be alive (see the above mentioned scumbags)
4. as stated elsewhere in the thread, prison doesn't rehabilitate, in general.

I personallly think some people should be killed. however, I do think the way our prison system works currently is messed up.

but there is no way you can convience me that people like the two jerks mentioned above should be kept alive. they are worthless.

[ridetoofast]

This is why countries have systems of Justice. To deal with the situation in a rational manner. Just because you're personally ready to kill someone about something doesn't make it right.

The death penalty:

a) Is more expensive than life in prison.
b) Has been shown to be used wrongly in many cases.
c) Makes you as bad as the Murderer - often worse as the death penalty is the ultimate 'premeditated murder'.
d) Has been shown to have zero, or even a negative effect on murder rates.

The only rational reason for the death penalty is revenge. Revenge is not justice. Why do you support it?


a) why is it so expensive? how about 20 years or so worth of appeals
vs an ENTIRE life in prison. im gonna call bull on it being more expensive. as expensive perhaps, but more is something i belive the opponents like to bandy about.
b) id like to see all these 'wrong' ones. im not discounting that it might have happened in the past but id like to see specifics that = many
c) worse than the murderer? typically a death sentence is levied for the most heinous of crimes, often carried out in a gruesome manner, whereas the state appointed 'murder' as you like to refer to it attempts to ensure the least amount of suffering possible (yes i know there have been botched gasses and electrocutions, but again those are exceptions as opposed to rules) which is more than the victim is granted. So, how does that make the state worse
d) again id like to see where you get 'negative' affects

why do i support it?
the punishment should fit the crime. when individuals have NO regard for civility and choose to live outside the norms of a civilized society committing the most aggregious of crimes, ESPECIALLY pedophilic murders as a case in point, they forfeit any rights to being treated in a civilized manner. how you think that someone that kidnapps, rapes, mutilates, and kills a child should deserve to live is simply beyond me. again an extreme example, but you don't have to look to hard to find just such cases.

[Changleen]

but there is no way you can convience me that people like the two jerks mentioned above should be kept alive. they are worthless.So killing them at great expense is even more retarded then. Force them to be wothwhile. Make them work hard, everyday for the betterment of society.

[stinkyboy]

True but Jesus takes that further and says how we are to love unconditionally our enemy and the whole "turn the other cheek" deal......not to mention the whole deal of holding all human life sacred, even the life of criminals.....


:thumb:

[Changleen]

the punishment should fit the crime.So a few years in jail followed by a painless death is a worse punishment than spending the entire rest of your life doing hard labour? :think: What would you prefer? Slavery in horrible conditions or a painless death?

[ridetoofast]

i wouldnt mind hard larbor one bit but the chances of that happening are non existent.

[stinkyboy]

So a few years in jail followed by a painless death is a worse punishment than spending the entire rest of your life doing hard labour? :think: What would you prefer? Slavery in horrible conditions or a painless death?

:stupid:

Why would you want to sit in solitary for the rest of your life?

[pnj]

So killing them at great expense is even more retarded then. Force them to be wothwhile. Make them work hard, everyday for the betterment of society.


it doesn't have to be a great expense.

I can think of a lot of ways to kill someone for cheap.

bullets cost next to nothing. it takes seconds to pull the trigger of a gun. it may take a few people an hour total to get the scumbag that needs to be killed, into a location that he can be killed.

no need to pay for an expensive funeral, chop the body into parts and drop it into the ocean. there are plenty of boats going out to sea everyday. or simply dig a hole in the ground (we can use other inmates for this, and pay next to nothing) and drop the body in.

how will you force someone to work hard? and how will they better society by it?

[Changleen]

it doesn't have to be a great expense.

I can think of a lot of ways to kill someone for cheap.

bullets cost next to nothing. it takes seconds to pull the trigger of a gun. it may take a few people an hour total to get the scumbag that needs to be killed, into a location that he can be killed.

no need to pay for an expensive funeral, chop the body into parts and drop it into the ocean. there are plenty of boats going out to sea everyday. or simply dig a hole in the ground (we can use other inmates for this, and pay next to nothing) and drop the body in.Uh, It's not the killing bit that costs the money... Maybe you should educate yourself about this a bit...how will you force someone to work hard? and how will they better society by it?C'mon. Seriously.

[Changleen]

i wouldnt mind hard larbor one bit but the chances of that happening are non existent.Why? You're rejecting the lessons of nearly all of human history in that statement.

[Changleen]

a) why is it so expensive? how about 20 years or so worth of appeals
vs an ENTIRE life in prison. im gonna call bull on it being more expensive. as expensive perhaps, but more is something i belive the opponents like to bandy about.Due process. In Texas for example it costs on average $1,500,000 more to execute someone than to keep them in prison for life. Look it up for yourself if you don't believe me. As I said before, that's a lot of teacher's salaries right there.

[pnj]

your missing my point.

(and I'm probably missing yours...)

under the current ways that our system is run, it costs a lot of money. I'm saying, if we made some changes it wouldn't have to cost so damm much. of course, those changes will never be made but that's besides the point. the point is, some people deserve to die. like the clown (john wayne gasey and the other scumbags that are like him.) people that hands down did the crime they are charged with.

I also think that anyone that is in prison should have to be taking classes and have to have a 'B' average or higher. don't want to take the classes? then you stay in your cell, all day.
and they shouldn't have tv's or be able to do anything unless they are doing the schooling. infact, they shouldn't be allowed to do anything but be chained to a wall.

Prison should be about rehabiltation. and some people should be killed/don't deserve to be a part of society.

[ridetoofast]

Why? You're rejecting the lessons of nearly all of human history in that statement.

how so? you asked if they should instead do something productive, elaborate on these lessons.

if you are going to imprison them for the remainder of their life why should they not be forced to make some contribution to society rather than living off of it?

[Changleen]

your missing my point.

(and I'm probably missing yours...)

under the current ways that our system is run, it costs a lot of money. I'm saying, if we made some changes it wouldn't have to cost so damm much. of course, those changes will never be made but that's besides the point.What changes? Getting rid of due process? That's what costs. You're willing to do away with justice itself? the point is, some people deserve to die. like the clown (john wayne gasey and the other scumbags that are like him.) people that hands down did the crime they are charged with. I disagree that they deserve to die. Firstly it lowers you to the level of the murderer. Explain how it doesn't if you disagree. Secondly, it costs more, money which the state could spend far more productivly elsewhere, stopping others become murderers for a start. Thirdly, these worthless lives could be made to give something back by keeping them alive and making them work.

This is pointless, we've been through this before. Your argument is: These people deserve to die. Why? You don't seem to be able to explain this.

I also think that anyone that is in prison should have to be taking classes and have to have a 'B' average or higher. don't want to take the classes? then you stay in your cell, all day.
and they shouldn't have tv's or be able to do anything unless they are doing the schooling. infact, they shouldn't be allowed to do anything but be chained to a wall.

Prison should be about rehabiltation. and some people should be killed/don't deserve to be a part of society.[/QUOTE]

[Changleen]

how so? you asked if they should instead do something productive, elaborate on these lessons.

if you are going to imprison them for the remainder of their life why should they not be forced to make some contribution to society rather than living off of it?Do you remember what you just posted? :oink: This post makes no sense. You just questioned and then agreed with my point... :drool:

[Andyman_1970]

if you are going to imprison them for the remainder of their life why should they not be forced to make some contribution to society rather than living off of it?

How about making prisons self sustaining so they aren't a burden on the tax payers?

[ridetoofast]

thats a stellar idea andy

[ridetoofast]

Do you remember what you just posted? :oink: This post makes no sense. You just questioned and then agreed with my point... :drool:


Why? You're rejecting the lessons of nearly all of human history in that statement. <---what lessons of history?

my answer to that was be productive through hard labor then

[ridetoofast]

What changes? Getting rid of due process? That's what costs. You're willing to do away with justice itself? I disagree that they deserve to die. Firstly it lowers you to the level of the murderer. Explain how it doesn't if you disagree. Secondly, it costs more, money which the state could spend far more productivly elsewhere, stopping others become murderers for a start. Thirdly, these worthless lives could be made to give something back by keeping them alive and making them work.

This is pointless, we've been through this before. Your argument is: These people deserve to die. Why? You don't seem to be able to explain this.

I also think that anyone that is in prison should have to be taking classes and have to have a 'B' average or higher. don't want to take the classes? then you stay in your cell, all day.
and they shouldn't have tv's or be able to do anything unless they are doing the schooling. infact, they shouldn't be allowed to do anything but be chained to a wall.

Prison should be about rehabiltation. and some people should be killed/don't deserve to be a part of society.[/QUOTE]

so that monster that recently kidnapped those kids in utah or oregon or wherever it was i dont remember off the top of my head, who is also very likely tied to some other gruesome acts against children,
you are going to sit there and tell me HE deserves to LIVE???
someone who kidnapped, and REPEATEDLY raped a LITTLE girl.

he deserves to live? that is rich.

[Silver]

How about making prisons self sustaining so they aren't a burden on the tax payers?

How?

You're going to run into trouble with two groups of people...first, the prison guards and the prison industry in general. They like the way it is now. Lots o' drug offenders means lot o' jobs. Reforming laws where the harm from the offence is on the offender would create a large drop off in the amount of prisoners and hence money that goes into the system.

Second, the business community. Prison industries have had trouble with this, and for good reason. It's kind of hard to compete with workers making $.70 an hour. I'm sure the Republican solution to this is to get rid of minimum wage laws and bring back debtor's prisons, but I'm not sure that is an improvement...

[ridetoofast]

how about making them work land to grow their own food, or work textile mills to make their own clothes, christ anything but sitting on their ass watching cable tv.

[sanjuro]

so that monster that recently kidnapped those kids in utah or oregon or wherever it was i dont remember off the top of my head, who is also very likely tied to some other gruesome acts against children,
you are going to sit there and tell me HE deserves to LIVE???
someone who kidnapped, and REPEATEDLY raped a LITTLE girl.

he deserves to live? that is rich.
Well, to counter, there have been people executed who were innocent.

I don't think a person like this should see the light of day every again, but a death sentence won't stop the next child killer either.

[Damn True]

5 hours and counting to room temp.

[sanjuro]

5 hours and counting to room temp.
Reminds me of Johnny Cash's "25 minutes to go"...

[ridetoofast]

i don't listen to him often enough but every time i do im pleasantly surprised at how much i dig his stuff

[Changleen]

How?

You're going to run into trouble with two groups of people...first, the prison guards and the prison industry in general. They like the way it is now. Lots o' drug offenders means lot o' jobs. Reforming laws where the harm from the offence is on the offender would create a large drop off in the amount of prisoners and hence money that goes into the system.

Second, the business community. Prison industries have had trouble with this, and for good reason. It's kind of hard to compete with workers making $.70 an hour. I'm sure the Republican solution to this is to get rid of minimum wage laws and bring back debtor's prisons, but I'm not sure that is an improvement...Aside from clearing the issues of instituational resistance, you could allow private companies to 'project manage' groups of prisoners for a small charge, then apply a slightly higher tax rate to these companies to compensate for the low wage advantage. You could have projects like road building, sewer cleaning, tunnelling...

[Silver]

Reminds me of Johnny Cash's "25 minutes to go"...

Or "The Mercy Seat"

Maybe more approriate for Tookie.

[blt2ride]

so that monster that recently kidnapped those kids in utah or oregon or wherever it was i dont remember off the top of my head, who is also very likely tied to some other gruesome acts against children,
you are going to sit there and tell me HE deserves to LIVE???
someone who kidnapped, and REPEATEDLY raped a LITTLE girl.

he deserves to live? that is rich.[/QUOTE]

I know who you're talking about. He was linked to the death of a child in the Riverside, CA area in 1996. Not only does this guy deserve to die, but he deserves a painful death. Even someone who doesn't believe in capital punishment has to admit that this dude deserves to be executed. There is only one way to ensure that society is safe from someone like him--he needs to be removed.

[Damn True]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet (feel free to delete if it has).

Interesting tidbit regarding the "legacy" of Tookie and his anti-crime/non-violence message.

It seems that the Nobel Peace Prize nominee has a couple of sons. The first, also named Stanley Williams is currently in Susanville (max security pen in far northern CA) on a 1994 murder rap. and the second son, Lafayette Jones who is a registered sex offender, was as of Nov 15th being sought in LA on alleged sexual assault.

IMO, it seems the efficacy of Tookie's "Dont do like I did" message is in question.

[Kopiklokoli]

Although it is a little late to be talking about this, (14 min before his murder) I would say that putting him to death is a big mistake. Not only have you murdered a man who has, I believe truly reformed, you are essentially displaying that it is impossible to attain clemency. If a man who has spent what about 15 years in prison trying to get out a message of non violence can't get clemency, who can? Why not let him spend the rest of his life in prison and continue to let him preach non-violence?

[skatetokil]

You know, I think we need to take a page from the british empire's book. we simply incarcerate and kill an impractical number of people. instead, we should just send all the violent criminals to some desolate place far away where they cant **** with us. suggestions for possible locations? france? north dakota?

[rooftest]

Although it is a little late to be talking about this, (14 min before his murder) I would say that putting him to death is a big mistake. Not only have you murdered a man who has, I believe truly reformed, you are essentially displaying that it is impossible to attain clemency. If a man who has spent what about 15 years in prison trying to get out a message of non violence can't get clemency, who can? Why not let him spend the rest of his life in prison and continue to let him preach non-violence?

I think you're missing the point - his sentance was death, not "if you get 'reformed' you can live."

Kinda like if I stole a car and got sentanced to 5 years, then started bitching and moaning after 1 year that they won't let me out because "I'm reformed." I even wrote a book on "why not to steal cars." :nopity:

[Reactor]

Aside from clearing the issues of instituational resistance, you could allow private companies to 'project manage' groups of prisoners for a small charge, then apply a slightly higher tax rate to these companies to compensate for the low wage advantage. You could have projects like road building, sewer cleaning, tunnelling...


One of the biggest hurdles to "prisoner employment" is risk. Most courts have video conferencing systems and use them to save on the cost and risk of moving prisoners around for routine hearings, motions, probation/pretrial officer/attorney visits. Any time the prisoner leaves the prison the risk of escape goes up, combine that with tools, most of which make pretty good improvised weapons...you get the picture. If employment takes place outside prison, it wouldn't be acceptable to most law enforcement officials and the public at large.

On the other hand, most of the jobs you can do in prison are pretty marginal. The increased cost of "supervising" the prisoners usually cancels out any profit. On the other hand I saw a lot of baskets at Ikea......

The real travesty is the way we confine people of minor drug crimes. We allow alcohol, but not other drugs? We allow tobacco, but not marijuana? We confine users for years in prison, instead of getting them help in kicking their addiction...maybe I'm getting skeptical in my old age...but it doesn't seem to add up.

We make helmet, seatbelt and airbag laws, but continue to allow bars to operate producing a situation that is sure to cause drunk drivers...drivers responsible for almost half of all motor vehicle deaths? If people were allowed to smoke MJ,tobacco or drink at home, where they are less likely to drive and kill someone, and got rid of bars would it be that bad? We could allow restaurants to sell a couple of glasses or wine or beer with a meal..just eliminate the places people go only to drink. We have less people in prison, they'd contribute to society and pay taxes, instead of consuming them, and a lot fewer drunks on the road.

I know this is tangential, but does anyone else think our system is illogical? It goes farther than that even....We glorify violence in television shows, but try to deny sex exists. You can show someone getting their brains blown out and splatted on a wall, but if two genital-lessTeam America puppets have sex, the film threatened with an NC-17?????

[Brian HCM#1]

Although it is a little late to be talking about this, (14 min before his murder) I would say that putting him to death is a big mistake. Not only have you murdered a man who has, I believe truly reformed, you are essentially displaying that it is impossible to attain clemency. If a man who has spent what about 15 years in prison trying to get out a message of non violence can't get clemency, who can? Why not let him spend the rest of his life in prison and continue to let him preach non-violence?Of course he's reformed, he was behind bars, what else is there to do? If his murder was for killing other gang members, then maybe I could see letting him live. But robbery & murder of strangers? No way, you gotta pay the piper.

[blt2ride]

Of course he's reformed, he was behind bars, what else is there to do? If his murder was for killing other gang members, then maybe I could see letting him live. But robbery & murder of strangers? No way, you gotta pay the piper.

To be honest, he was like everyone else in prision: 1) He found God. 2) He was reformed. 3) He was innocent. You're right, he killed four innocent people, who were just living their lives.

If Tookie was really reformed, he would have expressed remorse for his crimes, he never did that. He wasn't reformed--just desperate.

[LordOpie]

How about making prisons self sustaining so they aren't a burden on the tax payers?
They tried that horrible experiment and we wound up with vegimite, ValveBouncer, Olivia Newton-John, and Midnight Oil.

[Silver]

They tried that horrible experiment and we wound up with vegimite, ValveBouncer, Olivia Newton-John, and Midnight Oil.

That's a low blow.

Midnight Oil isn't that bad...

[Westy]

Midnight Oil isn't that bad...

They put on one hell of a good live show.

[Tattooo]

Took rode the needle at 1:20 this AM.
And the world is a better place.