Neo-what?

[MikeD]

Please define what 'neoconservative' means to you, and how you came to that conclusion...it's a term that's tossed around a lot these days, by lots of people, and I'm interested to hear how people perceive it.

MD

[Silver]

Too many people get called one. My definition is a follower of Strauss's philosophy. Examples would include Wolfowitz, Cheney, Perle, Kristol. Extremely interventionist foreign policy, idealist even.

Bush, not a neocon. Maybe led around the nose by them, but he isn't smart enough or idealistic enough to be one.

[skatetokil]

bush is a neofundecon if you want to be precise about it.

[Discostu]

Heres a post I made a while back about it. http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107303&highlight=neocon

There are alot of opinions out there about what exactly neocon means, so I won't pretend I have the definitive answer. I'm just stating my opinion. N8 for example has a very different view.

I've always thought Neocon referred to someone who followed the political philosopher Leo Strauss. Examples would be Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, and to a lesser degree Rumsfeld.

I think people that support neocons like these really need to look into Straussian teachings to understand exactly what it means to be a neocon. Strauss stated that in order for a nation to survive it had to control its people by keeping them occupied with a common, united battle against some evil in the world. Whether that evil is real or fabricated is irrelevant according to Strauss, because it is required to maintain social order. According to Strauss it is the duty of the elite to ensure the people believe in the cause.

With that in mind, I don't understand how anyone could possibly support the neocons given that their entire philosophy is based on promoting to the public what is possibly (and almost certainly given the current evidence) a lie.

I don't believe that Bush is a Neoconservative, his father certainly was not. I think that following September 11, the neocons began to gain power in his administration, claiming that their assertion of some evil force out to destroy us had been right all along. I think to be safe Bush is doing whatever the Neocons tell him to, and that involves one by one crossing names off the list of nations in the 'axis of evil'.

What does this have to do with the search for WMD's? Well I think its pretty good evidence the neocons are trying to do the same thing they did in the cold war, find a threat to the United States, no matter how small, then fabricate some extensive evil organization behind it all that will keep the people afraid. People that are afraid will be loyal to a group that promises them protection. As long as these neocons are in power, I think they will always find ways to keep us afraid, whether a threat exists or not.

Neocon = a code word for conservative non-liberal voting Jewish folk?

[Changleen]

See PNAC and Strauss as said above. Bush may not have been a Neocon, but he is acting like one now. Oh and Rummy so is a neocon.

[N8]

Heres a post I made a while back about it. http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107303&highlight=neocon

There are alot of opinions out there about what exactly neocon means, so I won't pretend I have the definitive answer. I'm just stating my opinion. N8 for example has a very different view.


And I stand by my assertion.... it's what libs seem to think.

[enkidu]

Please define what 'neoconservative' means to you, and how you came to that conclusion...it's a term that's tossed around a lot these days, by lots of people, and I'm interested to hear how people perceive it.

MD
You said you are reading up on this topic a while ago. So, what are your findings and the definition of "neoconservative"?

MikeD, by any chance, are you related to Larry Diamond of "Squandered Victory: The American Occupation and the Bungled Effort to Bring Democracy to Iraq" fame?

[valve bouncer]

Do neo-cons = frothers?

[Westy]

Take your classic conservative add a drooling lust for big government and unquestionalbe devotion to the cause.

[MikeD]

You said you are reading up on this topic a while ago. So, what are your findings and the definition of "neoconservative"?

MikeD, by any chance, are you related to Larry Diamond of "Squandered Victory: The American Occupation and the Bungled Effort to Bring Democracy to Iraq" fame?

I'll be right with you. This is gonna take a while...and no, not directly, but I'm sure we share a Hebrew gene or two somewhere back there...just like I must with Niel and the other Mike D....

MD

[Archslater]

bush is a neofundecon if you want to be precise about it.

So your saying that Bush is a Transformer?

[MikeD]

But the Buddhists commune (meditate) at molecular level. No, Reactor?


Molecules are just as much a part of the world of illusion as our egos. Nothingness is the empty set; component particles are only defined by our minds, not an absolute or underlying metaphysical univeral structure.

Oddly enough, I find Buddhism easier than neoconservativism.

Still working on a veritable essay here.

MD

[enkidu]

Molecules are just as much a part of the world of illusion as our egos. Nothingness is the empty set; component particles are only defined by our minds, not an absolute or underlying metaphysical univeral structure.

Oddly enough, I find Buddhism easier than neoconservativism.

Still working on a veritable essay here.

MD
While you are still working on the veritable essay, may I point out that defining some of the koans a Buddhist used as an "illusion" does not negate the powerful effect the early morning daily one hour deep meditation had on the judo master's life. Words and concepts are elusive and illusionary, easily wielded to manipulate others (as with neoconservatism?). But some manage to successfully stay within the tradition of clarifying and strengthening their own inner goodness. . . to be free from excess discord, avarice, jealousy etc.

Whatever neoconservatism is, it surely increased and inflamed discord, avarice, enmities and divisions among nations. The best antidote may come from those inoculated by "words" of deeper traditions.

[Changleen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_in_the_United_States

Damn, Richard Perle is such a dick.

[MikeD]

While you are still working on the veritable essay, may I point out that defining some of the koans a Buddhist used as an "illusion" does not negate the powerful effect the early morning daily one hour deep meditation had on the judo master's life. Words and concepts are elusive and illusionary, easily wielded to manipulate others


Absolutely...but this meditation opens one to understanding the universe on that pre-conceptual, pre-physical, pre-molecular leve...all these meaningless concepts and constructions fall away when it's properly acheived.

And words can have a positive effect, too, when wielded (as in a koan) to point out their eventual nothingness rather than lead one into false belief...

MD

[Reactor]

Oh, well, as long as we share the human genes we can talk, too, I guess.

But the Buddhists commune (meditate) at molecular level. No, Reactor?

At least that's how my Zen practitioner grandfather explained to me, when I asked about MU ("nothing", or better "no-thing"). That it's a meditation of the universe at the molecular level and the power in between molecules. (. . . not that I want to derail this thread.)


Sorry I missed this one, I've been tied up the past week or two.

MU is an elusive concept rooted in Zen. So please excuse my difficulty in conveying it. As a concept, MU is the thing that makes everything the same no matter how different it may seem, is in a sense the very fact of existence.

In a practical sense a state of MU is when you stop seeing things, and discreet beings and start seeing the universe as a giant connected state of being. It's when you identify with everything, as a whole. You now longer see individual countries, groups and people, but humanity. You no longer see a tree but identify with the tree as apart of an entire ecosystem. At it's ultimate level, you would lose all ego and sense of self and see the sameness in all creation. You would see everything connected.

Someone who understand MU, even partially, understands the shortcomings of the Neo-Cons agenda, and just how wrong the war in Iraq is.

[N8]

Neo-N8..?

[ohio]

In a practical sense a state of MU is when you stop seeing things, and discreet beings and start seeing the universe as a giant connected state of being. It's when you identify with everything, as a whole. You now longer see individual countries, groups and people, but humanity. You no longer see a tree but identify with the tree as apart of an entire ecosystem. At it's ultimate level, you would lose all ego and sense of self and see the sameness in all creation. You would see everything connected.
Huh. That sums up a lot of what I've arrived at as my personal philosophy. Not that I would say I fully understand MU, but I guess I could have taken a few short cuts by reading up more on what great minds have already thought of...

It's nice to have one word for it too. I can replace the whole paragraph that used to follow "You're a ****ing idiot because..." with "... you have no sense of MU."

[enkidu]

Sorry I missed this one, I've been tied up the past week or two.

MU is an elusive concept rooted in Zen. So please excuse my difficulty in conveying it. As a concept, MU is the thing that makes everything the same no matter how different it may seem, is in a sense the very fact of existence.

In a practical sense a state of MU is when you stop seeing things, and discreet beings and start seeing the universe as a giant connected state of being. It's when you identify with everything, as a whole. You now longer see individual countries, groups and people, but humanity. You no longer see a tree but identify with the tree as apart of an entire ecosystem. At it's ultimate level, you would lose all ego and sense of self and see the sameness in all creation. You would see everything connected.

Someone who understand MU, even partially, understands the shortcomings of the Neo-Cons agenda, and just how wrong the war in Iraq is.
I'm on my way out for a 10 day trip on the road. I'll bring a copy of this and ponder on it. Will be back with more questions and comments around the 17th! Take care and thanks for the food for thought.

[ohio]

Neo-N8..?
No, that would be your offspring, should you choose to have any.

I think I just threw up a little bit into my mouth.

[Silver]

No, that would be your offspring, should you choose to have any.

I think I just threw up a little bit into my mouth.

Don't worry. You've seen the Adam's apple on Ann Coulter, haven't you? Even if N8 does get the girl of his dreams, it is doubtful she has a uterus.

[ohio]

Don't worry. You've seen the Adam's apple on Ann Coulter, haven't you? Even if N8 does get the girl of his dreams, it is doubtful she has a uterus.
Adam's apple? I thought she had detached her lower jaw and was trying to swallow a small goat...

You know she only needs to eat once a month? Amazing, those reptiles.

[Reactor]

Adam's apple? I thought she had detached her lower jaw and was trying to swallow a small goat...



She's the chupacabra?!?

I heard it was an enemy poptart..She took one for the team and swallowed it whole.

I think she does a lot of "swallowing".

[MikeD]

She's the chupacabra?!?

I heard it was an enemy poptart..She took one for the team and swallowed it whole.

I think she does a lot of "swallowing".

You're just taunting ol' Silver to publish the URL about Ann Coulter that he so adores, aren't you? (It's pretty damned funny, but I'm not going to enter it through a gov't computer...run a search...)

MD

[Silver]

You're just taunting ol' Silver to publish the URL about Ann Coulter that he so adores, aren't you? (It's pretty damned funny, but I'm not going to enter it through a gov't computer...run a search...)

MD

I posted that once. :) It is funny. I like vulgarity anyways, but that was well written.

I don't know if it's still up. Let me check. Yep, it's still there. Odd, I was at the Farmer's Market last week, too...

ps...how's the swamp?