What should people expect from "govt"

[Damn True]

This whole deal with the 200 gazillion dollars demanded by LA for rebuilding got me thinking about what responsibility the govt should bear in all of this.

Now, if you own your home, it seems incumbent upon you (and required if you have yet to pay off your home loan) to have homeowners insurance. That insurance is supposed to pay for damage as a result of disaster (provided you bought insurance against that particular form of disaster). FEMA will grant up to $200k I suppose to cover deductibles and other sort of stuff.

If you own a home or apartment that people rent you would also have to have insurance right?

I don't currently own a home, I rent, but I have renters insurance against my possesions and insurance on my car. The dude that owns the house has insurance on the house I live in.

So what are we going to rebuild (on your dime and mine)? Are we going to pay to rebuild homes that are insured and absove the insurance companies of their contractural responsibility? Are we going to hand someone a check for the value of the home regardless if their insurance is already paying to rebuild it?

If someone owned a home and did not have insurance are we going to rebuild it? If so, why?

If someone is renting are we going to hand them a check too?

These are answers I think we need to have before we start mailing blank checks to individuals in Louisiana. Even more so before we hand $$ over to the state and local govt. down there. That place is not known for repute in its govt spending.

Seems to me that if someone did not have enough sense of personal responsibility to insure their belongings then it is they, not us, who is liable for the replacement.

[ohio]

Seems to me that if someone did not have enough sense of personal responsibility to insure their belongings then it is they, not us, who is liable for the replacement.
As good Christians, are we going to turn those in need out into the cold because of mistakes they've made in the past? How about their families, especially children, who aren't responsible for the mistake, but that will bear the brunt of the suffering if they are turned out into the cold?

[Damn True]

I don't disagree with your point. If someone cannot help themselves I have no problem helping them. But clearly there are those who can and should, but probably wont.

Another question that comes to mind is this. Prior to the hurricane the median home price in NO was $123,000. If someone was living in a home valued at $75k how much home are we going to build for them? Another $75k home?

[ohio]

How about low/no interest mortgages with no down payment. Let's them get right back to where they were, minus the equity, but holds them responsible for the payback?

[sanjuro]

Besides the personal losses, don't forget about the roads, highways, and other public works (like the levees) which will need to be replaced.

If you don't understand, just leave your house for a month by Monday, and you will know what my friends are suffering through.

[Damn True]

Well I think if they had a $75k house and for some reason did not have appropriate insurance (ie they had hurricane coverage, but not flood coverage though if you are living in NO....duh!) we could by all means return them to a home valued at $75k since FEMA will pay up to $200k. But if they want more home than that. Something like what you suggest would probably be ok, though IMO they ought to get a check for the differential between what their insurance will cover and the apprasied value of the home and nothing more.

Here's the kicker though. If the median price was $123k and the individuals home was, for the sake of argument, a 2000sq' 3/2 worth only $75k. The reason it is worth only $75k is because it was a dump or in a lousy area. It will most likely cost more than $75k to erect a similar house.

.....and what about renters? If they home they were renting for $600 a month is destroyed and the owner erects a new home on the site, its value as a brand new home will most likely warrant a higher rent. What then? Are we to require the owner to rent the home he owns for less than it's value?

If someone is renting, what if anything do they get?

This whole thing absolutely terrifies me in terms of how much money might be tossed at that place.

[PonySoldier]

I suspect the amount will run into the Billions..on the Insurance note..many homeowner policies do not cover flood damage..typically if you live in a federally designated Flood Zone ( As designated by FEMA) you purchase flood insurance through the NFIP ( National Flood Insurance Program) as normal insurers will not write insurance for these areas or make it prohibitively expensive...just my 2 cents

[Changleen]

This whole thing absolutely terrifies me in terms of how much money might be tossed at that place.Iraq?

[kidwoo]

Iraq?


Exactly. I want my tax money spent on keeping butt sex from happening legally and spreading freedom (for oil drilling.....not the butt sex part...cuz that's wrong)

[Changleen]

What, even the Tony Danza?

[DirtyDog]

We have a government that encourages development under any circumstances because the folks with the money are always right. So when the rich developers build subdivisions on protective wetlands with the governments endorsement, how is the average citizen supposed to know they have purchased an impending disaster?

[Damn True]

We have a government that encourages development under any circumstances because the folks with the money are always right. So when the rich developers build subdivisions on protective wetlands with the governments endorsement, how is the average citizen supposed to know they have purchased an impending disaster?

Dude, if your supposed "average citizen" chooses to live in a place with an ocean on one side, a lake on the other, with a river running through the middle of it and the whole thing protected by an aging levee system AND they are on average 6' below sea level and dosen't realize that the aforementioned is a recipe for soggy carpet then frankly, that person is probably a democrat.

We have a government that encourages absurd levels of pork. Our Federal legislature and that of the state of Louisiana is the group that should be carrying the most blame in this whole deal. It infuriates me that while Pelozi, Schumer, Kennedy and the rest of those dipwads were bloviating about who should be blamed (instead of worrying about saving people who needed help) that nobody and I MEAN NOBODY brought up this simple fact: It is the legislative branch of government (state and federal) that is charged with appropriating funds for public works projects. Instead they funded a myriad of self serving pork projects.

Leading the charge is Sen. Robert (KKK) Byrd of WV (d) who is the first Senator in the history of our great Nation to secure over $1 billion for his state. A mark he surpassed way back in 1999. This year he appropriated $399 million in funding for WV "projects" which works out to $220 for every resident of his home state. Some of these federally funded excercises in narcissism are:

Robert C. Byrd Drive, from Beckley to Sophia (Byrd's hometown)
Robert C. Byrd National Technology Transfer Center at Wheeling Jesuit University
Robert C. Byrd Highway
Robert C. Byrd Federal Correctional Institution
Robert C. Byrd High School
Robert C. Byrd Freeway
Robert C. Byrd Center for Hospitality and Tourism
Robert C. Byrd Science Center
Robert C. Byrd Health Sciences Center of West Virginia
Robert C. Byrd Cancer Research Center
Robert C. Byrd Technology Center at Alderson-Broaddus College
Robert C. Byrd Hardwood Technologies Center, near Princeton
Robert C. Byrd Bridge between Huntington and Chesapeake, Ohio
Robert C. Byrd addition to the lodge at Oglebay Park, Wheeling
Robert C. Byrd Community Center, Pine Grove
Robert C. Byrd Honors Scholarships
Robert C. Byrd Expressway, U.S. 52 near Weirton
Robert C. Byrd Institute in Charleston
Robert C. Byrd Institute for Advanced Flexible Manufacturing
Robert C. Byrd Visitor Center at Harpers Ferry National Historic Park
Robert C. Byrd Federal Courthouse
Robert C. Byrd Academic and Technology Center
Robert C. Byrd United Technical Center
Robert C. Byrd Federal Building (there are two)
Robert C. Byrd Hilltop Office Complex
Robert C. Byrd Library and Robert C. Byrd Learning Resource Center
Robert C. Byrd Rural Health Center
Robert C. Byrd Clinical Addition to the veteran's hospital in Huntington
Robert C. Byrd Industrial Park, Hardy County
Robert C. Byrd Scholastic Recognition Award
Robert C. Byrd Community Center in the naval station, Sugar Grove

This is not to say that Byrd is the only one doing this. They all do it, on both sides of the aisle. But he is by far the worst of the lot.

You wanna be pi$$ed at someone Beer Demon, don't be pi$$ed at business (for without which you'd likely lack the luxury of the PC you are sitting at) be pi$$ed at your elected officials.

[Damn True]

But I digress.....

[PonySoldier]

We have a government that encourages development under any circumstances because the folks with the money are always right. So when the rich developers build subdivisions on protective wetlands with the governments endorsement, how is the average citizen supposed to know they have purchased an impending disaster?


In part the FEMA Flood Insurance program attempts to address this...you cannot purchase a house without knowing the level of flood exposure the property has..

[DirtyDog]

Dude, if your supposed "average citizen" chooses to live in a place with an ocean on one side, a lake on the other, with a river running through the middle of it and the whole thing protected by an aging levee system AND they are on average 6' below sea level and dosen't realize that the aforementioned is a recipe for soggy carpet then frankly, that person is probably a democrat.


The democrat comment is obviously dumb but I understand what you are saying about the rest. But this is just one example. Here in Oregon we have dumbasses building homes up on the cliffs at the beach. Every few years we get heavy rains that cause these homes to slide off the hill. The government bails them out, "reform" is promised but within a few years the homes are being rebuilt.

The problem is that goverment (yes both dems and repubs) ALWAYS tailor policy to fit the wants of greedy business interests. I don't really want to pay to rebuild the coastline down south either. However, I think more blame should be assigned to developers and the government that supports their unbridled profiteering rather than the individual that is just trying to get by in life.

[MTB_Rob_NC]

The problem is that goverment (yes both dems and repubs) ALWAYS tailor policy to fit the wants of greedy business interests.

I really dislike this argument. It is so bunk. Who should policy be "tailored" to if not the "greedy" business interests that make this country revolve? Maybe they should be tailored to the poor or loathing crime element? Maybe treehugging greenpeacers?

Greed is good, business is good, making a profit is good. There certainly are people that take advantage of every situation. Personally I do not have a problem with anyone tailoring towards "business." Business is regulated, watched and is the most level playing field we have.

[fluff]

I really dislike this argument. It is so bunk. Who should policy be "tailored" to if not the "greedy" business interests that make this country revolve? Maybe they should be tailored to the poor or loathing crime element? Maybe treehugging greenpeacers?

Greed is good, business is good, making a profit is good. There certainly are people that take advantage of every situation. Personally I do not have a problem with anyone tailoring towards "business." Business is regulated, watched and is the most level playing field we have.

The people perhaps?

Not all business is good, not all business generates jobs, not all business produces something, not all profit is good.

Greed most certainly is not good

Anyone remember Ken Lay, Bernie Ebbers?

[DirtyDog]

I really dislike this argument. It is so bunk. Who should policy be "tailored" to if not the "greedy" business interests that make this country revolve? Maybe they should be tailored to the poor or loathing crime element? Maybe treehugging greenpeacers?

Greed is good, business is good, making a profit is good. There certainly are people that take advantage of every situation. Personally I do not have a problem with anyone tailoring towards "business." Business is regulated, watched and is the most level playing field we have.

Allowing developers to build on land prone to natural disaster is good for the economy? LOL, good luck defending that idea. :p

[DirtyDog]

Only people that know nothing of history claim that all business is good. If we still had unbridled capitalism in this country most people would be wage slaves barely getting by each month. Pure capitalism conentrates all the wealth at the top and leaves little for the majority of the population.

[MTB_Rob_NC]

The people perhaps?

Not all business is good, not all business generates jobs, not all business produces something, not all profit is good.



Who are the "people" you suggest? Where do they go? How do they get there? How do they pay for it all?

Anyone remember Ken Lay, Bernie Ebbers?

Are they a part of "The People?" For every bad person, business headline you read there are hundreds/thousands/millions of good people and business practices happening that are doing "good". Hell I just bought a can of soda out of a vending machine, I am sure some greedy bastard is making $0.25 off of me!


Allowing developers to build on land prone to natural disaster is good for the economy? LOL, good luck defending that idea. :p

Absolutely. Business is about taking calculated risk. Who gets to decide what is a good risk and a bad risk? The majority of the CA population is on the wrong side of a fault line. Colorado is prone to wildfires. SE Coastal communities are bound to get hit by a hurricane. Heck scientists say that it is inevitable that an astroid WILL hit the earth and change things forever(ok that is pushing it, but you see where it could go). Its all a risk.

Developers wouldnt build if there wasnt someone to buy it. There wouldnt be someone to buy it, if there wasnt someone to lend the money and to insure it etc etc.

When something becomes unprofitable is when it will stop.

[MTB_Rob_NC]

Only people that know nothing of history claim that all business is good. If we still had unbridled capitalism in this country most people would be wage slaves barely getting by each month. Pure capitalism conentrates all the wealth at the top and leaves little for the majority of the population.


I didnt say "ALL" as a matter of fact I specifically said there will always be people\businesses that will take advantage(in a bad way) of given situations.

However the model we have in place now is the best that is out there.

[fluff]

The people are the populace.

Not all business is bad.

Business men are people.

People do business.

Government for the people will not therefore be government against the people.

It will however, put people before business.

People have lives, needs, feelings, intelligence, compassion, ideas etc; they ca be touched, they are concrete.

Businesses are abstract entities, you cannot touch a business.

People create business

Business does not create people (yet..)

See why people should come before business yet?

[fluff]

I didnt say "ALL" as a matter of fact I specifically said there will always be people\businesses that will take advantage(in a bad way) of given situations.
Which is why people need to come before business


However the model we have in place now is the best that is out there.
Actually Norway has the best model, according to the UN.

[ohio]

Greed is good
Hi Gordon Gecko. How's it going. Say hi to Martin and Charlie for me.

You know economic theories have changed a bit since 1985?... something to do with crashes in the late 80s and fall 2001.

[MTB_Rob_NC]

Hi Gordon Gecko. How's it going. Say hi to Martin and Charlie for me.

You know economic theories have changed a bit since 1985?... something to do with crashes in the late 80s and fall 2001.


Actually I think the Wealth of Nations was published in 1776 and is still very applicapable. But hey I am not knocking your method of education :eviltongu

[Damn True]

The democrat comment is obviously dumb but I understand what you are saying about the rest. But this is just one example. Here in Oregon we have dumbasses building homes up on the cliffs at the beach. Every few years we get heavy rains that cause these homes to slide off the hill. The government bails them out, "reform" is promised but within a few years the homes are being rebuilt.

The problem is that goverment (yes both dems and repubs) ALWAYS tailor policy to fit the wants of greedy business interests. I don't really want to pay to rebuild the coastline down south either. However, I think more blame should be assigned to developers and the government that supports their unbridled profiteering rather than the individual that is just trying to get by in life.

Given the political landscape of the state of Louisians over the last 50-odd years I'd say the democrat comment was right on target.

It isn't the developer, it is the individual that buys the house that is to blame. People that own homes on North Carolina's outer banks (its a sandbar idiot), people that own homes along the cliffs in Malibu (how do you think those rolling hills became cliffs idiot) they are to blame. IMO FEMA should not pay to rebuild homes in such places. There ought to be a mandate that if you own a home in certain "high-risk" area's you and only you (in the form of insurance) are responsible.

[ohio]

Actually I think the Wealth of Nations was published in 1776 and is still very applicapable. But hey I am not knocking your method of education :eviltongu
Very applicable, yes. Adam Smith was a smart guy. Completely perfect? No.

Like Newton... very smart guy. Laid the foundation. Ideas still very applicable. But perfect? No. The first guy with the idea can't anticipate everything.

(By the way, I mentioned 1985, because the phrase "greed is good" was made famous the Michael Douglas character, Gordon Gecko, in the film "Wallstreet" as the prototypical 1980s churn-and-burn banker... figured most folks would catch that)

[MTB_Rob_NC]

Very applicable, yes. Adam Smith was a smart guy. Completely perfect? No.

Like Newton... very smart guy. Laid the foundation. Ideas still very applicable. But perfect? No. The first guy with the idea can't anticipate everything.

Agreed. I never said it was perfect. Only I am perfect :p

(By the way, I mentioned 1985, because the phrase "greed is good" was made famous the Michael Douglas character, Gordon Gecko, in the film "Wallstreet" as the prototypical 1980s churn-and-burn banker... figured most folks would catch that)

You said it, therefore it was my job to exploit it. :eviltongu

[Silver]

Actually I think the Wealth of Nations was published in 1776 and is still very applicapable. But hey I am not knocking your method of education :eviltongu

Have you read the Wealth of Nations? It's very much like the Bible. People seem to have a vague idea of what it's all about, and are surprised when they actually read the damn thing.

Adam Smith would be horrified with modern corporations, for example.

[MTB_Rob_NC]

Have you read the Wealth of Nations? It's very much like the Bible. People seem to have a vague idea of what it's all about, and are surprised when they actually read the damn thing.

Just as much as I read a myriad of other books in college. Ie.. I hightlighted what I thought was important to pass exams. It is very much a "Big picture" book

Adam Smith would be horrified with modern corporations, for example.

For example you are guessing and that holds just as much water as me saying he would be a corporate raider for sure.

[DRB]

Have you read the Wealth of Nations? It's very much like the Bible. People seem to have a vague idea of what it's all about, and are surprised when they actually read the damn thing.

Adam Smith would be horrified with modern corporations, for example.

Anyone from the 18th century would be horrified by modern society. Doesn't make it wrong. Just different.

Though I'm not sure Smith if given time to digest today's economy would be surprised at its evolution. And in many ways he would be proven correct. Especially regarding guilds (read unions) and their roles.

[ohio]

There ought to be a mandate that if you own a home in certain "high-risk" area's you and only you (in the form of insurance) are responsible.
How about a mandate that sellers of real-estate in those areas are required to fully disclose known risks of living in the area? Or a mandate for construction techniques that are based on the known risks in the area rather than using the absolute cheapest method for getting a roof off the ground? A land developer is in a much better position to understand and weigh these risks than the average home buyer, but right now the developer needs only gauge the short term risk, while an uninformed (or at least non-expert) buyer is expected to weigh long term risk, a much more difficult calculation.

People are EASY to take advantage of. Half of the population is dumber than the other half of the population... they shouldn't be rewarded for ignorance, but they also shouldn't be preyed on because of it.

[DRB]

How about a mandate that sellers of real-estate in those areas are required to fully disclose known risks of living in the area? Or a mandate for construction techniques that are based on the known risks in the area rather than using the absolute cheapest method for getting a roof off the ground? A land developer is in a much better position to understand and weigh these risks than the average home buyer, but right now the developer needs only gauge the short term risk, while an uninformed (or at least non-expert) buyer is expected to weigh long term risk, a much more difficult calculation.

People are EASY to take advantage of. Half of the population is dumber than the other half of the population... they shouldn't be rewarded for ignorance, but they also shouldn't be preyed on because of it.

Bought a house lately? Flood plains and flood insurance requirements are spelled out in great detail. I can't speak to wildfires, earthquakes and other natural diasters.

[Silver]

For example you are guessing and that holds just as much water as me saying he would be a corporate raider for sure.

Let's see what Mr. Smith had to say about corporations (it's all on Project Gutenberg now):

He's talking about joint stock companies here:

The directors of such companies, however,
being the managers rather of other people's money than of their own,
it cannot well be expected that they should watch over it with the
same anxious vigilance with which the partners in a private copartnery
frequently watch over their own. Like the stewards of a rich man, they
are apt to consider attention to small matters as not for their
master's honour, and very easily give themselves a dispensation from
having it. Negligence and profusion, therefore, must always prevail,
more or less, in the management of the affairs of such a company. It
is upon this account, that joint-stock companies for foreign trade
have seldom been able to maintain the competition against private
adventurers. They have, accordingly, very seldom succeeded without an
exclusive privilege; and frequently have not succeeded with one.
Without an exclusive privilege, they have commonly mismanaged the
trade. With an exclusive privilege, they have both mismanaged and
confined it.

This goes on for a few pages. He makes exceptions for banking and insurance industries, with some reseravtion.

My point is (to DRB as well) that you can't point to Adam Smith and assume or invoke his blessing on modern corporate economics. That includes unions (but again, you can't slam unions without slamming their counterpart, the corporation.)

[MTB_Rob_NC]

How about a mandate that sellers of real-estate in those areas are required to fully disclose known risks of living in the area? Or a mandate for construction techniques that are based on the known risks in the area rather than using the absolute cheapest method for getting a roof off the ground? A land developer is in a much better position to understand and weigh these risks than the average home buyer, but right now the developer needs only gauge the short term risk, while an uninformed (or at least non-expert) buyer is expected to weigh long term risk, a much more difficult calculation.

Ya because "those poor average multi-million dollar homes" on the cliff sides are often purchase by really dumb people :think:

People are EASY to take advantage of. Half of the population is dumber than the other half of the population... they shouldn't be rewarded for ignorance, but they also shouldn't be preyed on because of it.

Yes and 1/2 the population is taller then the other 1/2 what the heck is your point?

Was it to save the world from all those evil mart people :think: :think:

[ohio]

what the heck is your point?

My point is that people are easy to take advantage of, and when there's a financial incentive, people in a position to know more about a situation will take advantage of people in less of a position to understand a situation. Greed is NOT good when it harms people. Greed is NOT good when a short term gain for one party means a later long term net loss.

People DO need a certain degree of protection (from others and from themselves), becaus they can't know all things about everything. Yes, it it up to them to weigh risks and make decisions for themselves, but they can't do that if they don't know the risks.

[splat]

Have you read the Wealth of Nations? It's very much like the Bible. People seem to have a vague idea of what it's all about, and are surprised when they actually read the damn thing.

Adam Smith would be horrified with modern corporations, for example.

as would some of our founding fathers who wrote the constitiuon about how it is being interpeted.

as for flood insurance it is spelled out quite clearly and most places that require it , thre is no way you are going to get a mortgage with out it.

I had Flood insurance on my Place for 7 years , before my insurance agent was able to get it removed.

also the flood insurance was more expensive than my Homeowners insurance.

and the Reason I had flood insurance was I have a drainage ditch next to my house , that is 8 feet below the level of the house. and then I live on a hill at 250 above Sea level.

[ohio]

Bought a house lately? Flood plains and flood insurance requirements are spelled out in great detail. I can't speak to wildfires, earthquakes and other natural diasters.
No, I haven't bought a house. I live in the Bay Area. But yes this is also the case for earthquakes (in SF)... don't know about wildfires. It is not the case for tornadoes (at least in Ohio). But it doesn't address minimum building standards, nor do I think that there's the level of detail needed. For example, in SF if you decline earthquake insurance, you sign a simple waiver... there's no overt explanation of the fact that if you live in a house built on bedrock (e.g. Pacific Heights) you're MUCH safer than if you live in a house built on landfill (e.g. Marina).

[Damn True]

How about a mandate that sellers of real-estate in those areas are required to fully disclose known risks of living in the area? Or a mandate for construction techniques that are based on the known risks in the area rather than using the absolute cheapest method for getting a roof off the ground? A land developer is in a much better position to understand and weigh these risks than the average home buyer, but right now the developer needs only gauge the short term risk, while an uninformed (or at least non-expert) buyer is expected to weigh long term risk, a much more difficult calculation.

People are EASY to take advantage of. Half of the population is dumber than the other half of the population... they shouldn't be rewarded for ignorance, but they also shouldn't be preyed on because of it.

Disclosure is already mandated. You have to tell a home buyer if the home is in a high risk area for flood, mud-slide etc.

You mean to tell me that you think that people who are smart enough to earn enough to own a home in the outer banks (90% of which are second vacation homes) or on the cliffs of Malibu are not smart enough to know that those are high risk areas?

C'mon, you would have to have lived in a cave since before the television age to have not seen video of homes along beachfronts destroyed by hurricanes or winter storms. People buy those homes because it's a luxury to do so and they know that despite the fact that their insurance will not entirely cover the cost of replacement that FEMA will hand them a check for $200k to cover the discrepancy.

[ohio]

on the cliffs of Malibu are not smart enough to know that those are high risk areas?

I think the folks buying homes on the beaches of Malibu are in a slightly different situation than folks buying a $50-70k home in Louisiana. And no, I don't see any need to have FEMA bail them out if they're unwilling to pay for insurance.

[N8]

Here's something that's going right!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050928/ap_on_re_us/katrina_abortions_hk4_1

[PonySoldier]

Bought a house lately? Flood plains and flood insurance requirements are spelled out in great detail.....I can't speak to wildfires, ......


Since I live in the Front Range Red Zone for wildfires I receive a discount on my homeowners insurance since I have metal roofs on both house and detached garage..I also have a flood certification for the house/property I am not in a FEMA designated flood zone so I do not need the additional flood insurance that Splat speaks of...I believe you cannot currently get a mortgage without the flood certification.

[Silver]

I believe you cannot cuurently get a mortgage without the flood certification.

The flood cert is just a determination of what flood zone you are in, if any. That's something the lender will run, or they won't be able to sell the loan into the secondary market.

[PonySoldier]

The flood cert is just a determination of what flood zone you are in, if any. That's something the lender will run, or they won't be able to sell the loan into the secondary market.


I briefly did determinations for G.E. Capital in the mid 90's mostly on huge bank real estate portfolios since at that point some legislation had been passed that made the lienholder liable for this..I believe it was related to the massive flooding in the Midwest in '93 that used up huge amounts of FEMA's money because the flood zone insurance requirement wasn't being enforced...

[Silver]

The problem is that you can cancel flood insurance after you've got your mortgage. I haven't heard of mortgage being called due for lack of flood insurance. Big ole' loophole there.

[splat]

The problem is that you can cancel flood insurance after you've got your mortgage. I haven't heard of mortgage being called due for lack of flood insurance. Big ole' loophole there.


I tried that !! The Federal Insurance people just contacted my Mortgage Company direct after I didn't pay them :) The the Mortgage co. Paid for it and passed the cost along to me.

[Archslater]

I tried that !! The Federal Insurance people just contacted my Mortgage Company direct after I didn't pay them :) The the Mortgage co. Paid for it and passed the cost along to me.

I have a hunch that much of this discussion is moot, because many of the real victims in this debacle, rent homes/apartments instead of owning. Renters insurance is not required, nor is it spelled out that clearly when you sign a lease.

[MTB_Rob_NC]

I have a hunch that much of this discussion is moot, because many of the real victims in this debacle, rent homes/apartments instead of owning. Renters insurance is not required, nor is it spelled out that clearly when you sign a lease.


Or because....

Arguing on the internet is like........


We will not solve anything or change anyone's mind, but at least we can help make the work day go by faster

[kidwoo]

You mean to tell me that you think that people who are smart enough to earn enough to own a home in the outer banks (90% of which are second vacation homes) or on the cliffs of Malibu are not smart enough to know that those are high risk areas?
.

There are two multimillion dollar homes in incline village placed sqarely upon one of the more active fault lines in the tahoe basin. Half of each home has migrated in the 5 years I've lived here. There are half a dozen or so rather large, usually vacant (ie 2nd homes) that are placed within the natural flood zone of blackwood creek (tahoe westshore) built on backfill which redirected the creek and I have pictures of multiple high water years flooding every one of them.

Come up here in the winter and watch with me how many H2s you see in ditches because the drivers are clueless with regards to the beasts they are trying to control on slippery roads.

So the answer to your question is yes, that's what I mean to tell you.

Money don't make no smarts. Financial prowess doesn't mean squat in any other realm of congitive awareness. And not everyone with money earned it......regardless of the deep seated republican propaganda that that saturates you.

Your entire reason for starting this thread is deplorable. You stand high and mighty with your current adminstration wasting bizillions of YOUR TAX DOLLARS on useless wars, unprecedented coporate hand-outs, some of the greatest violations of human rights as well as liberties of our own citizens this country has ever seen in recent history and then try to act horrified that the government might actually use some money to help rebuild its OWN infrastructure and restart the lives of its OWN citizens.

Everything is all fine and dandy when the feds want to overturn state supreme court decisions regarding a STATE MATTER of a brain dead woman, but nooooooo....when thousands befall tragedy, the government should keep its nose out?

Well you can rest easy that these folks in charge will certainly not raise your taxes to accomplish this. They may cut back veterans benefits, reduce equiment and meals that soldiers fighting your war have access to.....but they most certainly not raise your taxes.

So there......you win.....

[Silver]

I tried that !! The Federal Insurance people just contacted my Mortgage Company direct after I didn't pay them :) The the Mortgage co. Paid for it and passed the cost along to me.

Your taxes and insurance are impounded, right?

[kidwoo]

Here ya go (http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:CrIBQebchh0J:johnshadegg.house.gov/rsc/RSC_Budget_Options_2005.pdf+RSC_Budget_Options_200 5&hl=en&client=googlet)

Operation Offset

Among cuts are medicaid, education funding, Global AIDS initiative funding, national parks/heritage programs, aternative energy research incentives, wastewater infrastructure programs (wtf??), ready for this...Eliminate Funding for Penile Implants Under Medicare...okay, that one's cool.

Goal is to reduce spending (to be kept as "savings") totalling 500 billion to help pay.

Here's 200 (/http://costofwar.com/)

[Silver]

So, that $15 billion to fight AIDS in Africa, which was tied to programs that disapproved of condom use in favor of abstinence, is gone?

Perversely, that may be a good thing.

Here is a little snippet from a recent Economist story about Uganda:

In the 1990s, western donor governments lauded Uganda for setting the standard in the continent's fight against AIDS. Mr Museveni talked openly about the disease, when many of his peers remained silent. He also pioneered the now famous “Abstain—Be faithful—use a Condom” (ABC) campaign that showed Ugandans how best to protect themselves. Partly as a result, infection rates fell from 18% in the 1980s to 6% in 2003.

But the AIDS problem is worsening again. A Ugandan health-ministry survey suggests that the infection rate is going back up to 7% for men and 9% for women. And just as Mr Museveni basked in the praise during the good times, now he—and particularly his wife Janet—are taking the blame as things go sour. For they have been accused of promoting the A at the expense of the C, partly under American pressure. As a result, the disease is spreading once again—a charge repeated last week by the UN's special envoy to Africa on AIDS. The government denies any change in policy, but critics point to several interlocking trends.

Since Mr Museveni made a speech strongly attacking condoms last year, say campaigners, primary-school children are no longer taught about condoms, which are no longer prominent in public advertisements. This chimes with the campaigning of the president's wife, a vocal evangelical Christian and condom-basher, who funds pro-abstinence and pro-fidelity posters and radio spots, and has called for a census of virgins in the country.

Now, I know it says "Partly under American pressure." It's still disgusting.

[kidwoo]

So, that $15 billion to fight AIDS in Africa, which was tied to programs that disapproved of condom use in favor of abstinence, is gone?

Perversely, that may be a good thing.

.

Yeah kind of a mixed blessing? Gone from working, to misdirected to completely void. Still sucks.

[Damn True]

There are two multimillion dollar homes in incline village placed sqarely upon one of the more active fault lines in the tahoe basin. Half of each home has migrated in the 5 years I've lived here. There are half a dozen or so rather large, usually vacant (ie 2nd homes) that are placed within the natural flood zone of blackwood creek (tahoe westshore) built on backfill which redirected the creek and I have pictures of multiple high water years flooding every one of them.

Come up here in the winter and watch with me how many H2s you see in ditches because the drivers are clueless with regards to the beasts they are trying to control on slippery roads.

So the answer to your question is yes, that's what I mean to tell you.

Money don't make no smarts. Financial prowess doesn't mean squat in any other realm of congitive awareness. And not everyone with money earned it......regardless of the deep seated republican propaganda that that saturates you.

Your entire reason for starting this thread is deplorable. You stand high and mighty with your current adminstration wasting bizillions of YOUR TAX DOLLARS on useless wars, unprecedented coporate hand-outs, some of the greatest violations of human rights as well as liberties of our own citizens this country has ever seen in recent history and then try to act horrified that the government might actually use some money to help rebuild its OWN infrastructure and restart the lives of its OWN citizens.

Everything is all fine and dandy when the feds want to overturn state supreme court decisions regarding a STATE MATTER of a brain dead woman, but nooooooo....when thousands befall tragedy, the government should keep its nose out?

Well you can rest easy that these folks in charge will certainly not raise your taxes to accomplish this. They may cut back veterans benefits, reduce equiment and meals that soldiers fighting your war have access to.....but they most certainly not raise your taxes.

So there......you win.....


Wow, you expended a tremendous amount of time and effort putting words in my mouth there. Bravo!

To your first point, RE: dip$hits in Incline Villiage etc:

Those people know exactly what they have and what they are getting into with those homes. When they purchase them that info, by law, must be disclosed. The thing is that they have F.U. money. When you have F.U. money you can rest easy on the knowledge that your insurance, with all appropriate riders, will cover darn near anything and what isn't covered, in the case of something sincerely catostrophic such as wildfires, cataclysmic floods etc will be covered by FEMA and such.

As for my reasons for starting the thread, you are totally off base. I clearly stated that if people are not of the means to help themselves (ie renters, those at or below poverty etc) then by all means they should be helped. Those who have appropriate insurance should be made to use that rescource. And, that those with gaps between their coverage and the total rebuilding cost should be given the normal assistance from FEMA not to exceed $200k.

My point is that Gov. Blanco is essentially asking for a blank check from you and I and is all but demanding that that the Federal Govt. maintain little to no oversight as to how that money is spent. Now in a state such as Louisiana that is rather infamous in terms of political corruption I have little confidence that said money will be used properly. My fear is that the money might be distributed at the very least in an inequitable fasion. There has been no mention as yet how the money might be used. Who will get it, or what the terms of distribution might be. If someone is in a $123k house then that should be what they wind up with when all is said and done. My fear is that we will be funding what is essentially a federally funded upgrade for all involved. Which was the point of the question I initially asked: "What should people expect from the Govt?"

Now in all of your bloviating and attacking you never addressed that point, so why don't you go ahead and do that now.

[Changleen]

My point is that Gov. Blanco is essentially asking for a blank check from you and I and is all but demanding that that the Federal Govt. maintain little to no oversight as to how that money is spent. Now in a state such as Louisiana that is rather infamous in terms of political corruption I have little confidence that said money will be used properly. My fear is that the money might be distributed at the very least in an inequitable fasion. There has been no mention as yet how the money might be used. Who will get it, or what the terms of distribution might be.DT, This is exactly what is happening in Iraq, except Iraq is worse. But that's OK? :monkey:

[Damn True]

No, no it isn't. Right or wrong, in the case of Iraq the federal govt has complete oversight of how the funds are being spent by virtue of the various appropriations comittees charged with funding the military. That oversight is provided by elected officals who either vote for or against various expenditures.

In the case of Louisiana, Blanco is asking for a fat federal check of over $200b and has publicly stated that she wants the decisions regarding distribution of funds to be made entirely within Louisiana govt. w/o input or oversight from the officials elected by the people who actually provided the money.

[Changleen]

Oversight only goes so far. Once the money disapeers into the coiffers of Halliburton, do you really think congressional oversight means sh1t? If this is the case, why are many agencies complaining about the huge gap between pledged money and money being actually spent in Iraq? Where is this money going? "It'll be spent whent he situation calms down" isn't cutting the mustard either. Second and third generation are being passed on whilst a significant percentage of first generation money and projects have fallen from the radar.

[kidwoo]

Wow, you expended a tremendous amount of time and effort putting words in my mouth there. Bravo!

The title post of yours and a few subsequent were actually very civil and seemed genuine.

But then here's what has come out of your mouth......and mostly what I'm responding to.


This whole thing absolutely terrifies me in terms of how much money might be tossed at that place.

Is that what you were thinking when you were taking donations? "This is cool and all but I sure hope no money gets sent their way to help rebuild" It's kind of hard to tell. Maybe I misread you.

Dude, if your supposed "average citizen" chooses to live in a place with an ocean on one side, a lake on the other, with a river running through the middle of it and the whole thing protected by an aging levee system AND they are on average 6' below sea level and dosen't realize that the aforementioned is a recipe for soggy carpet then frankly, that person is probably a democrat..

(not too many of those in incline village)

Plus.....that's just a really goofy thing to say. And if you honestly think like that, your programming is going quite well.


We have a government that encourages absurd levels of pork.

Yup H-A-L-I-B-U-R-T-O-N Now specializing in lowland real estate development!! Don't worry though, money is being saved through repeal of the davis bacon act just to make sure we don't actually pay any of the new hires in the area too much.

Can I get a complaint about that variety of pork from you?

Our Federal legislature and that of the state of Louisiana is the group that should be carrying the most blame in this whole deal. It infuriates me that while Pelozi, Schumer, Kennedy and the rest of those dipwads were bloviating about who should be blamed (instead of worrying about saving people who needed help) that nobody and I MEAN NOBODY brought up this simple fact: It is the legislative branch of government (state and federal) that is charged with appropriating funds for public works projects. Instead they funded a myriad of self serving pork projects.

I swear this almost a verbatim transcript from several of Sean Hannity's radio shows lately. Is that where you heard it too? The new orleans mayor flailed, I do believe this but your man bush and his horse judging appointee in FEMA did what for 4-5 days instead of "worrying about saving people who needed help"? Had no problem getting florida resources organized when the same storm hit that state. Blanco's request to the white house for a state of emergency was august 27th.

So moot point. Flailing all around, not just on the side you don't like.



To your first point, RE: dip$hits in Incline Villiage etc:

Those people know exactly what they have and what they are getting into with those homes. When they purchase them that info, by law, must be disclosed.

Not in nevada until recently but anyway, thanks for the elaboration with the FU money. So you're griping about poor people getting "upgrades" right? I, like you have not heard anything about proportional allocation yet of government funds......but this sounds like the kind of crap reagan used to spew about rich welfare moms having more kids to get more money driving nice cars, and a recent talking point.......let's wait and see eh?


As for my reasons for starting the thread, you are totally off base. You might be completely right about that. It was the other little tidbits that made me think otherwise however.


My point is that Gov. Blanco is essentially asking for a blank check from you and I and is all but demanding that that the Federal Govt. maintain little to no oversight as to how that money is spent.

And the reason for that is because of who the bulk of the money is going to for reconstruction so far and how it is NOT actually going to local construction firms who will be getting competive wages....regardless of bushies little speech. My personal guess is that a lot of what was destroyed is going to become upscale, higher market housing, more profitable to the firms who build it and exclusive from the residents displaced. Maybe this is Blanco's concern as well.

Like I said, my beef was with the subsequent posts, not the title thread......which I though was legit. It was the morphing that I thought I saw that made me suspect the motives.

[Damn True]

Is that what you were thinking when you were taking donations? "This is cool and all but I sure hope no money gets sent their way to help rebuild" It's kind of hard to tell. Maybe I misread you.

Indeed you did. Again, no problem helping those who need it. I just don't want to see money go to places and people who already have their bases covered.

Plus.....that's just a really goofy thing to say. And if you honestly think like that, your programming is going quite well.

The democrat part was as I'm sure you noticed, but chose to ignore a joke based on the political landscape of Louisiana since like....forever. The point I was making was that there is no way on earth that the people of Louisiana didn't know this could happen. Their own newspaper (Times Picuyane) printed a series of articles after Ivan hit last year - dig the link - http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313 and it's not as if this thing has come as a surprise to anyone
http://www.publichealth.hurricane.lsu.edu/convert%20to%20tables/Would%20New%20Orleans%20Really%20Floodtf.htm the point was, if you live.....like in North America, you know New Orleans is surrounded by water and in constant danger of flood and hurricane damage.

Yup H-A-L-I-B-U-R-T-O-N Now specializing in lowland real estate development!! Don't worry though, money is being saved through repeal of the davis bacon act just to make sure we don't actually pay any of the new hires in the area too much.

LOL, oh that's right. Bush invented this sort of thing right? Newsflash, political pork has been crippling this country for ages. Sen. Robert (KKK) Byrd is the best at it, but Louisiana, Alabama and a number of other states (including my own) are trying real hard to catch up.

That is precisely the point I made (maybe in another thread) that the real blame for the lack of $$ not spent on the levee system does not lay on GW's desk (remember, the executive branch does not make laws or write appropriations bills, it approves or veto's them. it is the legislative branch that failed to send the money where it belonged) it rests upon the desks of every congressperson and senator in Washington. Particularly on those from the State of Louisiana who are charged with protecting the interests of their constituancy.

I swear this almost a verbatim transcript from several of Sean Hannity's radio shows lately. Is that where you heard it too? The new orleans mayor flailed, I do believe this but your man bush and his horse judging appointee in FEMA did what for 4-5 days instead of "worrying about saving people who needed help"? Had no problem getting florida resources organized when the same storm hit that state. Blanco's request to the white house for a state of emergency was august 27th.

Actually, I don't listen to his show. No time for it as I am working when he is on the air. But to your point about what GW apparently didn't do. Did you see the big orange and white helicopters? The big grey helicopters? The big OD green helicopters? Those belong to the Coast Guard, Navy, Army, Marines, and Air Force....all FEDERAL agencies. Blanco bitched about her guard forces being "overseas in Iraq". Well, the fact is that less than 1/3 of the Louisiana National Guard is actually deployed. She failed however to put the remaining forces to work (again, civics...that is HER responsibility and it cannot be usurped by the POTUS unless it is a matter of National Security). The CG alone flew 1,507 flight hours (in eleven years of flying in the Coast Guard I ammased 1,583 hours flying about 6 hrs per week) rescued 6,740 people. People that should not have needed rescue. People that should have left town. People that weren't for some reason told to leave. People that should have been bussed, or trained out of town.

And by contrast, you saw little of this sort of thing in Mississippi, or Texas last week, or Florida last year when they got 4 in a month or when Hurricane Andrew hit years ago. Why? Because those state and local governments don't have their heads up their collective keisters.

Not in nevada until recently but anyway, thanks for the elaboration with the FU money. So you're griping about poor people getting "upgrades" right? I, like you have not heard anything about proportional allocation yet of government funds......but this sounds like the kind of crap reagan used to spew about rich welfare moms having more kids to get more money driving nice cars, and a recent talking point.......let's wait and see eh?

I don't give two $hits who it is. I don't want anyone getting a $200k upgrade. Dosen't matter if it's the dude that owns 1/2 of the French Quarter real estate or a dishwasher at a taco stand. My point is that Blanco is asking for the money and all but refuses to give any sort of information as to her process for using it. I don't want to wait and see. I want a plan BEFORE the checks start flying, and I want craploads of oversight. I'd rather not look back 2 years from now and say, "Wow, what a shame that all that money got sent there, and so many people who needed it didn't get it." Or find out that the guy who owned a $250k house now has a $400k house. etc.

And the reason for that is because of who the bulk of the money is going to for reconstruction so far and how it is NOT actually going to local construction firms who will be getting competive wages....regardless of bushies little speech. My personal guess is that a lot of what was destroyed is going to become upscale, higher market housing, more profitable to the firms who build it and exclusive from the residents displaced. Maybe this is Blanco's concern as well.

That is precicely my point. Especially in light of the Kelo case. I fear that average to below-average home owners will lose their property to "renewal" and that developers, unions, and in turn politicians will be the ones that wind up smelling like a rose while the people who are supposed to be getting helped out get the shaft. I sincerely doubt, given the political history of Louisiana, that members of it's government have their consitiuants best interests in mind.

Case in point: http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1123495&page=1

[ohio]

So could we have avoided roughly 4 pages of hatred and drivel by simply agreeing that there should be oversight to how the federal aid is allocated?

Geeesh. Why didn't you just post that to begin with?

[Damn True]

So could we have avoided roughly 4 pages of hatred and drivel by simply agreeing that there should be oversight to how the federal aid is allocated?

Geeesh. Why didn't you just post that to begin with?


Well you and I agreed on that point in like the first four posts. The rest of the rubbish came later.

[kidwoo]

I know bush didn't invent pork barreling. I learned the term in high school. But you have to admit, he's brought the concept to some pretty amazing heights. If you pretend to not know what I'm talking about, you're lying. Yet you refuse to point the finger at anyone but the people on the other side of your team.

About the helicopters.......Unfortunately I don't have cable which where I live means I don't have television. But by all means.....tell me WHEN all these hours were logged, because it's entirely relevant. And correct me if I'm wrong, but under the official "state of emergency" declaration, no federal agency can deploy the national guard? I.e FEMA? Remember...letter submitted the 27th. I personally can excuse an after the storm hit lack of communacation between officials in the state.

I can't tell you how many hurricanes almost hit where I lived and guess what.......lot's of people don't evacuate......lots more in New Orleans didn't evacuate for whatever reason, but the fact of the matter is, the federal goverment failed right after the local ones did. One had electricity, the other didn't. The ones who could act after the fact did not do so in a timely manner. Pure negligence. I can say that to some degree about both sides. You apparently can't.

I don't give two $hits who it is. I don't want anyone getting a $200k upgrade. Dosen't matter if it's the dude that owns 1/2 of the French Quarter real estate or a dishwasher at a taco stand. My point is that Blanco is asking for the money and all but refuses to give any sort of information as to her process for using it.

Why are you so angry about this? The fact is you don't know. The fact is that Haliburton subsidiaries are so far the only ones getting money out of this, these guys are on your team.

I can tell you from having grown up in florida and watching hurricanes destroy communities (andrew in homestead, hugo in savannah) THIS NEVER HAPPENS. There was nothing over 6 feet tall standing in homestead or florida city after andrew. That place still never recovered to pre storm conditions. Miami on the other hand while not in the same path, is doing fine. So let's follow that model if it makes you feel any better..poor people = screwed, metro money = just fine. Just like before the storm. No upgrades.

But if you really truly had an ounce of genuine copassion in you, you would say this....

I don't want to wait and see. I want a plan BEFORE the checks start flying, and I want craploads of oversight. I'd rather not look back 2 years from now and say, "Wow, what a shame that all that money got sent there, and so many people who needed it didn't get it."

.......About IRAQ, because it's happening, and not some theoretical misuse that has yet to be substantiated.

Again, you sound like one of reagan's disciples. Whining about something with little basis in fact because that's what the cheeleaders on your team are chanting. What are you going to do if you don't see this kind of documentation from the federal govenment before any checks are signed....NOT follow your leader? I can only wish you were capable of that.