The demise of the Snoqualmie Pass lift served

[FatalExposure]

Does anyone have the background info on why Snoqualimie Pass closed the lift served riding in the summers? I heard it was due to a frivolous lawsuit by a rider.

Is anyone posting here a former employee of the North Bend shop known as CyclePath?

I used to be an apprentice mountain guide for Martin @ ProSki across the street in case you are wondering who I am.

[iridebikes]

well, i don't know if you know this or not... but the US government and private land owners are not very freindly to us bikers. I wish that they would open back up again, but the best we have is the shore and whistler. Canadians are much more open to extreme sports where Americans are much more open to extreme lawsuites... bastards...
The fact that so many people are sue happy, and that liability has become such an issue results in us not being able to ride and trails being shut down(i.e. 38 and 27).
It does suck, and it makes me want to move to Canada, where the riding is better, and people seem to be more accepting towards riders. I mean heck, Canada is the only place where I've seen people comuting around on big bikes. Here in Seattle, you get exited when you see a big bike! It's quite sad how the American culture doesn't care about sports where you get out into nature and enjoy what is around us. Instead you have to be siting at home on the couch with beer in hand watching monday night football to be considered a true sports fan.
The American culture is just not accepting to what we have to offer... Lance isn't doing his job!!! Roadies dont' help build trails...

[FatalExposure]

When I am physically located in North America I do live/travel in British Columbia and Alberta about 4-6 months out of the year. I own a home in Washington and a townhome @ Snoqualmie Pass. So I do know a bit about some of the things that are going down around the area. I was just curious to see if Aaron, Coulter or any of the boyz were still around, and what exactly happened to the lift served op they were promoting there for awhile. I never rode the lift served there, but I would like to know the background before pursuing another lift served business opportunity in Washington State.

[MMike]

trailhacker is likely the best guy to answer this....but pretty much the company that owns Snoq...some...Colorado based company I think, just didn't see it as a money maker. The insurance, running the lift... all expensive...and Snoq was really only servicing....what 150, maybe 200 people? It was the same 200 every week, and I guess it wasn't covering expenses.

As near as I know it was purely a money thing. I never heard of any lawsuit.

[FatalExposure]

The guy that owns SingleTrack cycles was telling my riding partner something about the lawsuit, and he passed it on to me. I can think of some better mountains to get a lift served riding park going on. Ahem...Crystal Mountain.

[Skookum]

it was them damned salamanders that did it in.

[FatalExposure]

Is that Love and Rockets quoted in your autosig?

[geargrrl]

move to Idaho - you've got lift serve biking at Silver, Scweitzer, Tamarack, Brundage and Sun Valley... there might be more but that's all I can think of at the moment.

gg

[oly]

Its just washington that suicks. If you look across the US there are plenty of ski resorts that are open to lift ops for bikes.

[Borneo]

I never heard anything about a lawsuit. I've been a long time seasonal emp up there and depite the fact that Booth Creek runs a park at Northstar, which they also own, they decided that there was not enough money to be made at Snoqualmie Pass. Same few people every week. No growth after a few seasons open. Yes, they did a horrible job marketing it. There was also at least one World Cup or NORBA DH race there too.
Crystal had lift served for a few years as well. I heard that they also closed for low attendance.(No money being made...)
There's a high percentage of gravity junkies here on the PNW list. But, I assume that # is still really low as a percentage of all mountain bikers in the area. There have also been some attempts to work with Booth Creek to get it reopened. But, so far, neither Snoq or Crystal have seen the numbers that would justify it. IMHO
I still think they could open Snoqualmie and run weeknight race series like the City League racing in the winter. Build a dual course and go for it...

[FatalExposure]

Washington has always been conservative, despite a large amount of natural recreational resources. I grew up in the front range of Colorado, and believe me, we don't think like Washingtonians when it comes to land. Recreation opportunities should exist for everyone.

I believe in Washington the conservatism emenates from various groups dating back into the 50's who set the tone for recreational land usage (Mountaineers, Alpine Lakes coalition, Sierra Club, tree huggers statewide). An attitude that needs to be stomped into the past where it belongs.

For example, if existing land borders were peeled back, or even nullified altogether, a ho-hum ski area like Alpental (sorry, I know Alpentalics will take offense at that) could put a gondola on the top of Snoqualmie mountain opening up a huge amount of terrain. With one single development tiny Alpental would become de-facto the best ski area south of Whistler. It would eclipse Crystal with one Gondola. That will probably never happen. Not until Washington's economy begins to collapse and eco-tourism becomes a major bread winner.

However, if that same thought process was applied to a bike park on the Kendall clearcut across the road from summit central (a misplanted tree farm) an amazing lift served park with 2200 ft of vertical could be opened up within an hour of Seattle. It was previously shuttled by locals before the road was shut down by a tank trap. This is just an example.

I'm not sure what the demographics of the posters in this forum are, but if anyone here with time, money, experience, and connections is interested in seeing this happen contact me via PM.

[Fast&Smooth]

you were all too cheap that was the problem. no one wanted to pay for lift service.

[FatalExposure]

Once again I see the cheapness of paying for lift service as kind of a "Washington Thing". I've climbed in BC and Washington for 10 years, and been immersed in that culture till I could puke. There was a time when I seriously looked down my nose at anything that assisted me gravity wise up a hill. I know for a fact there are a lot out there who share that feeling.

However, lift served is one of those things where you don't knock it till you try it. After being buried in 2 avalanches backcountry skiing. Hell YA. I'll ride the lift, give ME a helo ride to the top. Gondola? Heck yeah...look at Chamonix...alpine playground.

I've climbed thousands of feet on my bike up roads, trails, pushing, pulling cursing...all for like a 45 minute descent. Worth it? Sometimes, I'll do it again and again. However, I LOVE options, and with the price of gas climbing who wants to shuttle when you can ride chairs.

[FatalExposure]

I would think that Mission Ridge would be a better mountain biking resort than Snocrummy Pass anyway.

[MMike]

you were all too cheap that was the problem. no one wanted to pay for lift service.

That too...an $80 season's pass... well who's fault was that?

[trailhacker]

... and that liability has become such an issue results in us not being able to ride and trails being shut down...
Actually it wasn't about liability that they were shut down, it was about Salamanders and "habitat destruction"???
I mean you can cut a ski run 100 feet wide from top to the bottom and clearcut square miles of hillsides but god forbid you ride a 24" wide path of rock and dirt on that same hill...
And the closer of those two areas as far as I know is still open with unofficial OK from the DNR. At least before the people started cutting all the new trail and building the new stunts which I've heard (but haven't seen with my own eyes) were built by cutting down trees which is exactly what they asked people not to do?
But this place is on DNR where as Snocrummie and the other exit are USFS land.
And there was a lawsuit against the Ski area related to the bike operations which was just one more thing stacked on top of the pile of reasons for them not to open.
The biggest reason they don't make any money is that they invest 0$ into developing a trail network. I and the many people helping me built very DH specific trails but this only catered to the 150 people (if that, I'd guess 100 would be being generous) mentioned above. If they would have developed "green" trails that mom and pop and the kids could ride it would have increased there recreational riders tremendously. I remember watching families get off the lift then walk there bikes down the first hill, then push there bikes up the next hill as the road was pretty gnarly for people expecting the Tolt-pipeline trail. I'm not sure that hill lends itself to that type of trail however without substantial machine built trail. And without Snocrummie being a "destination" I'm not sure they would ever attract that type business anyways?

[trailhacker]

I'm not sure if you are saying thats too much or not enough? If its too much then you need to d othe math to see just how inexpensive that was. If too little I would have to agree even though they never really sold that many?
That too...an $80 season's pass... well who's fault was that?

[MMike]

I'm not sure if you are saying thats too much or not enough? If its too much then you need to d othe math to see just how inexpensive that was. If too little I would have to agree even though they never really sold that many?

No no....totally not enough!!! They were giving it away!!

[Snacks]

No no....totally not enough!!! They were giving it away!!

For sure! I'd gladly pay twice that now not to have to drive 4 hours plus the savings in gas!

Oh I miss KR1 :dead:

[juice]

Rumors are really fun!

BBTC has talked with the Snoqualmie folks, and its purely a business decision. If they thought they could make money, they'd run the lifts for bikes in the summer. I'm personally convinced that the growth of our sport (DH and freeride) is enough that Snoqualmie will open up again in the next couple years. I know I keep saying this, butwrite them letters and tell them you'll spend your money up there!

There might be a little bit of truth to the lawsuit thing, but it still boils down to money. Ski areas get sued all the time, and they just need to factor that expense into the operation.

The beautiful thing about Snoqualmie is that some of that land up there is private and owned by them - enough to put in a nice bike park. There's a lot less red tape with private land, and they can do it if they want.

Lets see, in the last 4 weeks I've driven to Fromme, Seymour, Whistler and Blackrock in Falls City. I need something closer, gas is killing me. Snoqualmie, are you listening???

[Borneo]

It comes down to whether people will pay for a system that they enjoy or not. The "easy" trails across the street from the bike shack up there were wide XC trails in the winter and the lift served were too rocky and gererally gnarly for the masses. Suspension technology would undoubtably get more people up there nowadays. As well as the popularity of Whistler and the price of gas. But, it seems like the area has said "Show me you can support it and we'll build it." while the community has said "build it and we'll come". An impasse.
We seemed to have had our chance with the Pass and Crystal and we lost it. As for Mission, zdfg, that would even have less of a population base to choose from. It would have to damn good to get me to drive that far. When I could go a bit farther and be at the shore.
Somebody will step up sooner or later. The big bike phenomenon won't go away. But, it still is a very small portion of the mountain biking demographic. `

[Dave_Schuldt]

Bill S (I forget his last name), a higher up in the North Bend FS ranger district, told me last summer he wished there was lift served riding in this state. He thinks it will keep folks from building bootleg trails.
If there was a gravity place near by would more folks buy gravity bikes?
I think so.

[Skookum]

Rumors are really fun!
Who's spreading rumors? No FatalExposure has my sig pegged. Besides everything posted on the internet is fact, didn't you get the memo? :dancing:

[garcia]

my wishing ferry told me is ilegal ride donwhill on nw

[Toshi]

my wishing ferry told me is ilegal ride donwhill on nw
:think:

[MMike]

Besides everything posted on the internet is fact,


Skookum wears womens' underwear.

[ioscope]

it was them damned salamanders that did it in.
'
No, a salamander is not a mollusk.
Did you find it in the sandy ground?

[NateH]

The most reliable thing that i have heard from booth creek (having worked for them in th winter) is that it is a matter of taxes. More specifically the bike park only comes out even at best so they are able to use it as a tax deduction of some sort on their winter profits. The last few year have been substandard winters as far as profits go so there is no profit to take a deduction from. I have a feeling it is more complicated than any one reason. Probably a combination of a bunch of the stated theories.

[carbuncle]

Even if the park was more like the new Cypress park than Whistler I would buy a season pass and be up there constantly. It would be great to have legal downhilling within an hour of Seattle, and the market is so different now! If they put an ad in decline and one in any other bike magazine there would be huge interest! I certain there are promoters around here who would be into putting on a slopestyle event, and GHY proved that the pros will come to Washington for a good event...

[FatalExposure]

So evidently, from what most are saying here, the last go around was more about bad timing, than genuine interest on both sides to get a bike park up and running.

There seemed to be some problems with implementation the first time around. From what I gather, the trail building efforts were not properly funded, a diversity of trails to attract new riders was not considered, and a viable marketing program was not seriously undertaken to gain a wider interest in the services provided.

If a new demographic study based on industry interviews, perceptions, and scientific polling of the vast base of riders located in Washington and the greater Seattle area were undertaken that proved a profitable margin of ticket sales could occur than Booth Creek and The Summit would be open to reopening the park. Is this a correct assumption from those in the know?

From among those here, how high of a ticket price could you reasonably afford for a season which went from say, June-September? 4 months of good riding. Maybe riding chairs 4-10 times a month? 16-40 visits a season. That's a ton of riding. Would it be worth $250.00.

If 500 riders bought a $250.00 ticket for the first season that would be $125,000.00. If you charged $20.00 for a one time lift ticket and each week brought in 100 riders a week for 16 weeks that would equal $32,000. Concessions, bike rentals, helmet rentals might bring in another $10,000. The total income generated might equal less than $200,000, and then minus insurance, salaries, etc., but this would certainly be more than the $0.00 of operating income the pass creates for itself by sitting idle during the summer.

I, just by myself, have converted 4 former diehard climbing friends of mine to mountain biking in the last 12 months. From among those 4 they have accounted for bike sales of over $10,000.00 in a 12 month period. That's 4 people who didn't even ride 3 years ago when the park was up and running who would now buy a lift ticket. Among the 5 of us that accounts for 1250.00 in ticket sales that didn't even exist 3 years back. I'm sure most of you have a similar story.

I have enough time and interest that I could easily VOLUNTEER 10-20 hours a week 6 months a year to helping build trails and maintaining them. That lowers the initial start up costs that number crunchers feed on in business.

[Skookum]

To respond seriously to this thread, i used to ride at Snoqualmie on average of 2 times a year when it was around. It was fun challenge back when i didn't have a bike or skills to ride down it. In fact it was the place that got me hooked into mt. biking.
Crystal was a joke.... they lifted up a third of the way up, and the trails were choppy straight and unfun.
What makes a trail fun for me? When it's not straight in a boring way, both swoopy and fast, not "just" uber technical, i don't like to stand on the brakes the whole time. (You know... a fun trail like RatPac) Can you get that at Crystal? Hell yah, can you get it at Snoqualmie? Not where they had the trails before (too steep of terrain).
My favorite trails were trail 13 and the trail right under Silver Fir, but then again i didn't have a big bike or full armor back then either... And if Snoqualmie opened back up would 13 be opened back up, uhm seriously doubt it...
Anyways as a prospective buyer of said 20 dollar lift tickets, if they re-opened Snoqualmie as is, i'd go back once, maybe twice a year. If there was more trails put in i might go more. If they re-opened Crystal as is, i wouldn't bother... but i've mantained and still say Crystal has limitless potential, being shaped like a bowl, you could have such a great variety of trails there. If there was promise of better things to come i'd show at either of these venues once or twice more to support them, and even though summer is bad to me for trail work (i slave on a roof) i'd even lend a hand a few times.

My opinion mirrors others... There are plenty of gravity adrenaline junkies around to make this happen. i think it can be a success more so than before. i think it would bring more people to mt. biking in general.

Rinse wash repeat........

[Snacks]

Skooks...when are you making a trip up North with us?

[FatalExposure]

I agree. Crystal is a much better location. I think that there is some potential at the Summit, and I have ridden most of those trails in the fall just training for skiing, so I understand the need for better trail development. Nonetheless, Crystal has the terrain, the vertical, and the views. I guess we'll see.

[MUTOLI]

fatalExposure:
The friends you speek of that you converted over to mtn biking... One of the guys isn't Matt is it? I just met a guy yesterday at Tape that just got into it...big time rock climber he said. It's great meeting new people that are just getting hooked!!!

[Borneo]

If it helps, Scott Hageman was the Mountain Bike Patrol Director at Crystal when they were open. He's on the Woodinville City Council now so a # should be publically available to find him. He may have some answers.
Crystal would be better. But, only for weekends. Snoqualmie could actually be open weeknights and later, under the lights for bikercross series or slopestyle riding. Thinking a dirt version of City League ski racing. That's when convenience would help with location. Park it out and they will come.

[MMike]

I've siad it on numberous occasions...catering to the dirtbag mountain bike crowd is difficult. Hard to be profitable when your clientele doesn't have any money. The need to attract people who actually have money.....

[Tootrikky]

If it helps, Scott Hageman was the Mountain Bike Patrol Director at Crystal when they were open. He's on the Woodinville City Council now so a # should be publically available to find him. He may have some answers.
Crystal would be better. But, only for weekends. Snoqualmie could actually be open weeknights and later, under the lights for bikercross series or slopestyle riding. Thinking a dirt version of City League ski racing. That's when convenience would help with location. Park it out and they will come.

Crystal is on Indian land. Can't have a bike park without their approval first, and the bike park would be on their Elk's feeding grounds, and from what I hear (from pretty good sources) they already asked them as the Owner/higher ups there have been to Whistler in the summer and were excited about the growing popularity of lift access riding, but the tribe said.... no way.

[PsychO!1]

I think Snoqualmie's terrain is better suited for 'all around' trails at the furthest west side of the resort. The previous years access was at the east end.....nothing but steep and rocky.

[carbuncle]

From an economic standpoint, I've spent something like $4000 on bikes in the last 2 years, and about $2000 getting to Canada to ride this year. If I had a place nearby, I would surely ride more often there than going to Canada. And weeknights? Hell yes! Straight from work to the mountain baby! I'd pay $250 for a season pass to even a halfway decent local lift park. I think that Snoqualmie would just need to cater to a variety of people: downhillers alone will not keep it open. There needs to be "green" trails for families and beginners, intermediate "blue" trails for folks to get skills up on and introduce ladder work and tech features, and black and double blacks later for the hardcores. There are more intermediate all-mountain riders in washington than hardcore freeriding downhillers, mostly because our riding culture is coming late to the table with that. Build for the masses rather than the hardcores, and advertise in high profile magazines that kids and trailriders read, create curiosity and interest, and there is fully a market there. If I had big money I'd invest in it, and I do have time and tools and would fully invest time in working on it. For that matter if I had money I'd invest ina "Ray's Mountain Bike Park" style indoor facility somewhere down here in the flatlands, too. Mix up North Shore tech features and skatepark style bike only riding, maybe some djs...

[thesacrifice]

Problem is, I don't see Snoqualmie attracting anyone but locals. Whistler is successful because it has a plethora of family activities AND it has world class riding. They've generated the income during the winter to build at ease during the summer. Anyone have info on the Diablo Freeride Park...their numbers etc...

I personally just need a local lift assisted trail like Dirt Merchant and I'd try to ride it every weekend!

[juice]

I've siad it on numberous occasions...catering to the dirtbag mountain bike crowd is difficult. Hard to be profitable when your clientele doesn't have any money. The need to attract people who actually have money.....

You should take a look at some of the demographics about mountain bikers that NBDA (http://nbda.com/site/intro.cfm) (Nat. Bicycle Dealers Association) published. Turns out we're in the same income bracket as golfers and skiiers. Very attractive in terms of disposable income. This doesn't mean everyone has $$$, but our average income ain't shabby.

[MMike]

You should take a look at some of the demographics about mountain bikers that NBDA (http://nbda.com/site/intro.cfm) (Nat. Bicycle Dealers Association) published. Turns out we're in the same income bracket as golfers and skiiers. Very attractive in terms of disposable income. This doesn't mean everyone has $$$, but our average income ain't shabby.

Would that include XC people? I would suspect that there are more 50 year-old XC riders than DHers. And the DH/FR scene is nowhere near as "established" for lack of a better word, as the XC scene.

And as a frequent client of the Snoq lift service, I know who they were catering to. Dirtbags! (You know who you are)...

My point is that Snoq has to attract more than the 19-24 year-olds who need to scrounge or beg DHZ for a deal to keep their bikes going. (which was essnetially the demographic at the time).....

This is the same reason the Simon had such a hardtime with DHNW and his hospitality service at the Nationals. It was a great idea, but no-one who would actually want the service could afford the service. He was pretty bitter about people ("bro's"), wanting "hang out" in his expensive pit space, or crash on the floor of his expensive hotel rooms.

Anyhoo.....

[Borneo]

"include XC"? Of course it would. And the aging beach cruiser crowd on the Burke-Gilman too.
All the more reason to cater as most ski ares do, to the "blue square" crowd. A little harder stuff and a little easier for the full family type day. May be worth looking at Cypress for a good example.
When/why would people go there versus Whistler? Is Cypress going to make any money?

With bull dozer access, I know even Snocrummy would be pretty cool to ride weeknights and non-travel weekends after a bunch of dirt work. For all levels of ability.

As noted, the "re-opening" has been tried a couple of times already and "Juice" has the contacts that spearheaded that effort and the reasons it was shot down. It's possible to find out if Northstar is making money. If it is, then, that may help the cause. Without a fresh look though, for the time being, it's a dead horse.

[geargrrl]

You should take a look at some of the demographics about mountain bikers that NBDA (http://nbda.com/site/intro.cfm) (Nat. Bicycle Dealers Association) published. Turns out we're in the same income bracket as golfers and skiiers. Very attractive in terms of disposable income. This doesn't mean everyone has $$$, but our average income ain't shabby.

http://www.kmcmag.com/pdf/kmc_summer05.pdf

Kootenay Mountain Culture did a whole issue on the demographics of mountain biking in BC. The numbers are pretty amazing. Theyve tracked how much the average mountain bike tourist spends in a day, and so on. Worthwhile reading for anyone interested in the numbers that drive the industry.

[Tootrikky]

Would that include XC people? I would suspect that there are more 50 year-old XC riders than DHers. And the DH/FR scene is nowhere near as "established" for lack of a better word, as the XC scene.

And as a frequent client of the Snoq lift service, I know who they were catering to. Dirtbags! (You know who you are)...

My point is that Snoq has to attract more than the 19-24 year-olds who need to scrounge or beg DHZ for a deal to keep their bikes going. (which was essnetially the demographic at the time).....

This is the same reason the Simon had such a hardtime with DHNW and his hospitality service at the Nationals. It was a great idea, but no-one who would actually want the service could afford the service. He was pretty bitter about people ("bro's"), wanting "hang out" in his expensive pit space, or crash on the floor of his expensive hotel rooms.

Anyhoo.....
So Your points are that Snoq failed because
1)The riders were dirtbags.
2)The riders were aged 19-24 and got deals from the DHZ
3)Rich fifty year old XC riders didn't and do not ride DH.
4)People mooched off of Simon at the nationals.


Thanks for the vaulable input Mike!

[SR]

and nobody finds it ironic that the state closest to whistler appears to be the only one not willing (for lack of a better word) to run summer lifts for bikes? I don't think resorts in other states would be as concerned with loosing potential daily (or weekly) business to the biggest and most successful lift-accessed bike park in the world. Sure, more people in Washington may ride at a local resort than say five years ago, but I'd be willing to bet they'd still make the trek to Mecca nearly as much as they do now.

btw, I read MMike and Borneo's posts as basically saying the exact same thing in different words....build a wide variety of terrain to attract a wider clientele

[juice]

Would that include XC people?....

who they were catering to. Dirtbags!...

My point is that Snoq has to attract more than the 19-24 year-olds who need to scrounge or beg DHZ for a deal to keep their bikes going. (which was essnetially the demographic at the time).....


I agree on all points. There's no question that Snoq did a half-baked job last time around.

Look at Stevens pass in the winter. I swear they have 100,000 kids up there every weekend just for ski school - and none of them are old enough to drive. Just think what Snoq could do in the summer if they got all the local groms up there for lessons, clinincs, or just to go rip. We need the lifts running. We need a Huck Bus.

[Skookum]

Skooks...when are you making a trip up North with us?
eh? :p

[FatalExposure]

I think some people have inadertantly brought up some pretty effective selling points. Number 1 being the idea of marketing to kids and parents. I would rather have my kid break his collar bone doing something athletic than watch him turn into a couch potato playing XBOX (nothing against XBOX-DOOM3 rules!).

Also, a big point is variety. It falls right in line with a progression of trail systems that apparentally the park lacked last time. The whole GENEX...Bender go big or die trying...Xtreme thing may have sparked a growing interest in alternative biking sports, but it cannot sustain itself forever.

Most people, like me, are pretty content to be mediocre, and live to tell about it. However, as the late Alex Lowe said "The BEST climber is the climber who is having the MOST fun". Similarly, the BEST mountain biker is the one who is having the most fun at any one time. I rode most of the trails that were at Snoqualmie after they shut down. Like alot of people mentioned, without a high end machine, and more than a basic riding skill you were probably dabbing like mad or going over the bars. Or even more frustrating, walking down some of the trails. Who wants to pay to walk and crash? Not me.

By the nature of it's topography Snoqualmie Pass lacks vertical relief, however the entire ski area encompasses a low elevation ridge system which lends itself to long gradual traverses. A good network of systems which traversed the ridge line could provide a longer downhill with moderate obstacles and speed. A series of wide wooden bridge overpasses would allow for a system of trails which did not physically intersect, except for raised overhead platforms, where riders could observe people riding the trails below them. Sort of a Devils Gulch style approach to trail building in the area.

So for example, a rider could get off at Silver Fir and begin a gradual descending traverse out towards Summit West with switchbacks occuring near Thunderbird Chair. Now I know the Mountaineers maintain a land plot smack dab in the middle of the whole show which could be a problem, but I'm sure creative trail building could alleviate a lot of the complications. Or maybe just cutting that whole section out by switchbacking back to the south from the ski line known as Parachute, and bombing out to Summit Centrals quad chair. An alternate line of moderate descents would spiderweb through that system originating from other existing lift platforms further north.

Steeper more advanced lines could exist throughout the tree lines off Silver Fir and the double at Central. The "Goblin Forest" at Hyak would be a great place to create steep single track with freeride obstacles utilizing the already existing stump farms tucked in the 2nd growth.

Beginner lines could encompass the wide variety of service roads/Xcountry ski lines ranging from Summit East (Hyak) to Summit West.

A Xcountry system already exists from Hyak, and even from Silver Fir which utilizing already existing Xcountry ski trails would give the Xcountry rider a workout going out and around Mt Catherine to Windy Pass, back down to the Yurt near Silver Lake and back around to Hyak (Summit East).

Alpental of course doesn't really lend itself to many trail options because the upper chair feeds into a steep talus basin. The lower chair is funneled into a narrow series of chutes. Perhaps a Gargamel style single track could someday feed the masses appetites over there, but it's hard for me to imagine sending Upper International on a bike.

Anyway, the area has huge potential, not as a destination resort, but as a let's get out of town for the day and enjoy gravity, not spend a ton of money or time activity destination.

A lot of business ideas fail the first time around, but with a little experience and a new outlook they come around. This one needs to be reborn. There seems to be quite a few posting here who have institutional knowledge of Snoqualmie and good connections. Whoever you are. :stupid:

[MMike]

I'm really thick and apprently don't have strong comprehesnsion skills

Thanks for the vaulable input Mike!

Any time!

[MMike]

all good stuff

Yep/... no-one doubts that the potential is there. Most of what you suggested has been suggested before by various people. The riding there could actually be better than the skiing.... it's just been impossible so far to get the "shirts" to acknowledge any of this.

[FatalExposure]

Yeah, but I have investors with $$$ willing to get the thing back up and running. We're just doing some homework at the moment.

[MMike]

Yeah, but I have investors with $$$ willing to get the thing back up and running. We're just doing some homework at the moment.

well then i wish you god speed!

[geargrrl]

I think some people have inadertantly brought up some pretty effective selling points. Number 1 being the idea of marketing to kids and parents. I would rather have my kid break his collar bone doing something athletic than watch him turn into a couch potato playing XBOX (nothing against XBOX-DOOM3 rules!).

Ever been to Brundage?They have some great trails there, and what's cool is that as much fun as it is to bomb the Elk trail at high speed, it's also a suitable trail for mom& pop with the trail-a-bike. They are marketing very well across the board, from families, to xc riders who don't want to climb, to the DH riders looking for excitement on the old world cup course.

gg

[mplutodh1]

Problem is, I don't see Snoqualmie attracting anyone but locals. Whistler is successful because it has a plethora of family activities AND it has world class riding. They've generated the income during the winter to build at ease during the summer. Anyone have info on the Diablo Freeride Park...their numbers etc...

I personally just need a local lift assisted trail like Dirt Merchant and I'd try to ride it every weekend!

Do they attract anyone but locals in the winter? It's snoqualmie, lets be honest here. It aint the best location for anything (as far as terrain goes). There are a lot of areas that just cater to locals and the occassional passerby. That's fine, as long as the locals help them make money, what difference does it make who it is?

Problem with places like Crystal, long drive to no where. There isn't anything down there but the mountain. Almost no where to stay unless you are at the main lodge or drive way the heck back down the mtn.

A few events on the mountain jammed into an opening year would put Snoq back on the map and in the media. If trails were built smart, plans put in place and the man power to do it correctly it wouldn't be hard to easily and inexpensively market Snoq.

Have a promoter locally look into trying to get a National event or something of that scale back to the hill. That in itself creates free marketing. Magazines, newspapers, websites, etc nation wide will advertise the locations of a national event and at no cost to the promoter. If plans were put in place at that time to discuss briefly during press-releases that there will be x miles of trails, x things to do, x places to stay, etc you'd have a good marketing campaign taken care of. With a little more effort, decent website, posters/fliers in bike shops/magazines (Few thousand would get you several ads) don't have to be huge and fancy, can't compete with whistler, just want to stir up the questions about the mountain.

Problem was snoq never did that, they advertised one or 2 years with fliers in shops (sometimes) and that was it. Word of mouth was all I ever got from that hill.

After going up at one point that year to ride, I actually attended some youth mtb camp. Was actually pretty fun for someone who hadn't done much "dh" or any lift type riding. Had guys and girls of all ages taking the camp. Few days of riding, season pass, dinner, lodging, etc

It's crap like that they need to do to bring in the "new" folks not just the regulars.


BUT on that note now as I have managed to work my way into the roll of an event promoter I can say one thing, this stuff isn't cheap. Snoq is a much larger operation then hosting the Broken Spoke and seeing our expenses (oh god!:() time, energy, etc and the numerous headaches, challenges, etc that come with it. I can see why Booth Creek doesn't really want to consider it to seriously.

Only way I see this as working, is someone drafting up plans, looking into the legal issues, costs, etc. Petition/study the demographics that would be using the park, talk with Booth Creek to see what their hold-ups are and concerns and find ways to address them all. Basically do the grunt work for them. Might even need to find sponsors/vendors to jump on board to fund some of the upfront costs of getting it all up and running for a first year trial period. If Booth Creek has to pay for it and organize all of it, chances are they won't lift a finger.

[thesacrifice]

Do they attract anyone but locals in the winter? It's snoqualmie, lets be honest here. It aint the best location for anything (as far as terrain goes). There are a lot of areas that just cater to locals and the occassional passerby. That's fine, as long as the locals help them make money, what difference does it make who it is?



Snoqualmie attracts almost primarily Seattle skiers/boarders. But, the population of skiers to DH/FR/XC riders is undeniably unproportionate

[FatalExposure]

Susie Tjossem, Vice President Guest Experience & Product Development stjossem@boothcreek.com

[Pullshocks]

I have tried writing to their customer service email before, never got a response, or even a basic acknowledgement.

I will be writing this person to tell her her how much I have spent going to Whistler, Sunpeaks, Silver Mountain, etc and making a committment to buy 2 season tickets and eat lunch there every time I go.....

[FatalExposure]

Most the things Pluto mentions are things we are starting to work on or compile. I'd like to have a comprehensive package together, along with the investor money, all lined up BEFORE approaching Booth Creek directly.

What people can begin to do as individuals is start getting a feel for where their rider friends, sponsors, et al, stand on this. Drum up some interest. If the demographic looks weak then it's a waste of time and money to go forward, but if it looks strong then it should go forward.

Another good thing would be for people with intimate knowledge of the former operation to compile a list of suggestions for improvements, and a baseline of the problems which existed previously. We can avoid making the same mistakes. Some are listed here, but I know there were other problems to tackle as well.

Also, a list of key people to work with to get this off the ground. I see that some advocacy groups have thrown in a few cents here and there already, so that's always a good place to start. Examples would be attorneys wiling to put in a few hours of probono to look it over, an engineer or two who have access to certain types of construction equipment and knowledge, some trail builder types, etc.

Feel free to PM me.

[Uruk-hai]

What about taking the approach Ski Bowl does at Mt Hood? They cater to more than just mountain bikers. They have the alpine slide, a bungee jump, a rock climbing wall, etc, that caters to families as well as mountain bikers. With their location on I-90 Snoqualmie would be visible to a lot of potential customers and with other activities they could spread the financial risk out and not be dependent on any one type of activity. I seriously doubt that if Ski Bowl had to rely solely on bikers to stay open during the summer that it wouldn't happen. That alpine slide of theirs is the $$$ maker and it is busy every time I have been down there (on a sunny day).

[Borneo]

More info from the inside...

"Trevor Kostanich is the Environmental/Planning guy. He works with the Forest Service regarding the permits and all the other bureaucratic agencies. The word I had regarding mountain biking was yes, they lost money, and the Forest Service was VERY unhappy about all the renegade trails the downhillers made. On top of that, the ski area was not allowed to make any new trails because their Master Plan was not approved. The Forest Service basically does not want any more trails made up here for mountain biking. Remember this is the North Bend ranger district, which basically has no bike trails in their district. Except for the John Wayne Trail and now the Middle Fork.

I think I remember Trevor saying that they wanted the BBTC to maintain all their trails for them, or something like that, because they weren’t going to hire a trail crew. I personally have a problem with volunteer labor going to help a for-profit corporation."

Anybody who has dealt with the ranger district knows this isn't just a Booth Creek issue... :mumble:

[Snacks]

Haha....renegade trails that the DH crew made...what about all the ATV's in the area? What about all the illegal shooting?

Whatever.....beating a dead horse comes to mind when the subject of getting the Pass to open to bikes.

[oly]

Haha....renegade trails that the DH crew made...what about all the ATV's in the area? What about all the illegal shooting?

Whatever.....beating a dead horse comes to mind when the subject of getting the Pass to open to bikes.

Best post.... Ever.

[SR]

no, the best post ever would be brock posting up his dead horse CADDE rendering ;)

[oly]

no, the best post ever would be brock posting up his dead horse CADDE rendering ;)

If i was on my work computer, i would have posted that. Probably the best cadde ever.

"is it dead"......." no, i think we should beat it some more"

[trailhacker]

...and the Forest Service was VERY unhappy about all the renegade trails the downhillers made.
I really wish someone would remind these people that the downhiller was building the trails ON THEIR PAYROLL and with their FULL KNOWLEDGE AND APPROVAL!!!! I have the pay stubs to prove it.
Not one trail on the lift serviced area was unknown to them. Yes the first two years it was purely voluntary, but I asked permission and was granted it by the people working there including Guy whats-his-name.
Why does it have to be such a buarecratic mess!!! Why can't they just say "if you built over here it would be fine, but stay away from there. You will have to shut this trail down because of (whatever) concerns but we will allow that trail as it doesn't encroach on anything"?????
F**K ME RUNNING!!!

[Borneo]

Guy Lawrence

Really seems like a classic case of the left hand didn't know what the right was doing up there...

Another rumour is that the Cyclepath guys (Aaron?) we're f'n with everything and not good to work with. But, I don't know what their involvement was. Just that they still remember and it wasn't good...
(Third hand dead horse information...)

I'd love to see something up there that was worth it. I rode it once at the beginning and never went back and told everyone that asked back then that it wasn't worth it. (Hey, we were all on full rigids back then.)

[Secret Squirrel]

I just want to ride some stuff....bleh....I think I'll give up every single item I spend money on (except for bikes) and save all my vacation.

Then I'll spend every single weekend riding at Whistler or on the race circuit.... :cool:

And if someone wants a really big, really hardworking, young whippersnapper to help build trails or whoop some Washington bureaucratic a$$...you know where to find me.... :mumble:

I'm going to go work somemore overtime for those new parts I want for next season....and a new helmet to prevent somemore serious concussions.... :confused:


Huh?!?!?? :thumb:

PM me if you're going to build anything ya need a hand with...

Peace out,
G

[Velocity Girl]

F**K ME RUNNING!!!

If think I prefer the phrase "F**k me gently with a chainsaw". (from the movie Heathers) Just gives it that little extra "umph" .

[Fast&Smooth]

That too...an $80 season's pass... well who's fault was that?

i had a seasons pass.
80 is dirt cheap
pays for its self in 4 times

[SR]

80 is dirt cheap

uh...yeah, that was the point. too cheap

[Dave_Schuldt]

Keep in mind we are losing Vicktor Falls and Lake Sawyer to the bulldozer, all those folks who ride there will need to go somewhere. Somewhere I read that the ski business is somewhat flat. Is this true? If may be a good idea for them to put in a campground. Is DH and FR realy growing like it seems to be? Like I said before, if there's a place to ride close by I think more folks would think it worthwhile to buy a big bike.

[Skookum]

Problem with places like Crystal, long drive to no where. There isn't anything down there but the mountain. Almost no where to stay unless you are at the main lodge or drive way the heck back down the mtn.

Why would you stay there it's only a two hour drive from Seattle? Unless you live Everett north i don't see Crystal being excessively far, especially to Tacomers.

[oly]

Keep in mind we are losing Vicktor Falls and Lake Sawyer to the bulldozer, all those folks who ride there will need to go somewhere. Somewhere I read that the ski business is somewhat flat. Is this true? If may be a good idea for them to put in a campground. Is DH and FR realy growing like it seems to be? Like I said before, if there's a place to ride close by I think more folks would think it worthwhile to buy a big bike.

Thats why I like it down south, I'll always have trails close by. They wont build anythign In cap forest, although they do randomly clearcut trails, but they come back fast.

Really i wont miss victor, but Lk sawyer will be missed when it finally coems tiem to develop that area....

[FatalExposure]

Borneo, that was the information I was looking for. If NBRD has something to do with it, and that is their stance, then I don't want anything to do with it. The bureaucracy flows uphill with that crew, and I don't want to waste that much time. Moving on then to Crystal Mountain. What was the score with them?

[Skookum]

Really i wont miss victor, but Lk sawyer will be missed when it finally coems tiem to develop that area....
Lake Sawyer will last forever, we'll just punch out windows and build skinnies thru living rooms.

[Dave_Schuldt]

So aren't the owners of The Pass a big company that spreads $$$ all over DC? If so they should be able to do whatever no mater what the FS says.

[Vno]

Keep in mind we are losing Vicktor Falls and Lake Sawyer to the bulldozer, all those folks who ride there will need to go somewhere. Somewhere I read that the ski business is somewhat flat. Is this true? If may be a good idea for them to put in a campground. Is DH and FR realy growing like it seems to be? Like I said before, if there's a place to ride close by I think more folks would think it worthwhile to buy a big bike.
WHAAATTT!! Lake Sawyer is going down? Damn, that came to be one of my must rides when I returned to town. Now I have to make a special trip. When is it scheduled for closing, or is it like Victor which has been closing for years?

[oly]

WHAAATTT!! Lake Sawyer is going down? Damn, that came to be one of my must rides when I returned to town. Now I have to make a special trip. When is it scheduled for closing, or is it like Victor which has been closing for years?

Step back into the AC man, your starting to freak out....

i think he was just meaning more that the areas will slowly be lost to development. Victor now is nothing like it was 5 years ago due to home development.....

[juice]

Yeah, most of what we call Sawyer is on private land, so someday there could be a grocery store or a bunch of homes there. They're already starting to encroach on a trail or two, but it'll be a slow process (hopefully). Any time you're riding on private land, its a temporary arrangement.

BBTC (http://bbtc.org) is working with Friends of Rock Creek Valley and King County on proposals for permanent riding areas on public lands in that area, so hopefully everything that is lost will be replaced by permanent trails.

[FatalExposure]

So aren't the owners of The Pass a big company that spreads $$$ all over DC? If so they should be able to do whatever no mater what the FS says.

I don't think Booth Creek has much of a lobby in congress. Seems to me like the world has more to worry about. I would really prefer to see Crystal developed over Snoqualmie. And I think the backers would too. It has more vertical, more terrain, and better scenery. Snoqualmie is simply ease of access, and after names like FS, Kostanich start getting thrown out I begin to remember vague headaches from the past.

[Pullshocks]

Crystal may be a way better bet. They also have Forest Service issues, but at least they are developing for summer operations.

There was an article about this in the Seattle Times last fall. Go to Seattletimes.com and do a search on

Crystal Mountain: Starting gate opens for dramatic expansion

[FatalExposure]

I agree that Crystal makes much more sense terrain wise. I live 20 minutes from the pass, but I would drive the extra distance for better terrain and scenery. I've emailed the marketing department at Crystal.

[Vno]

Step back into the AC man, your starting to freak out....

i think he was just meaning more that the areas will slowly be lost to development. Victor now is nothing like it was 5 years ago due to home development.....
I don't need no stinkin' AC...I'm actually in So Cal doing two weeks of Reserve duty at March ARB...which in itself sucks because I'm right by Big Bear and IT'S closed to DH. So leave me alone OLY!

[oly]

I don't need no stinkin' AC...I'm actually in So Cal doing two weeks of Reserve duty at March ARB...which in itself sucks because I'm right by Big Bear and IT'S closed to DH. So leave me alone OLY!

When you back up here? Got the bug for Sawyer again...

[Vno]

When you back up here? Got the bug for Sawyer again...
I'd like to plan a trip pretty soon. I'll see if there's any Seatac inspections to do, that way the airline picks up the tab and I get guaranteed seating. I'm cravin' some Lake Sawyer and a Capital mud fest! I'll get back with you when I return to Phoenix and schedule next months audits.