No Karl Rove Bashing today..???

[N8]

What's up? You libs are slipping.

[BillT]

Its a very interesting story...if he did leak the name, should he be tried for treason? If so, imagine the uproar if Bush pardoned him.

[Slugman]

Its a very interesting story...if he did leak the name, should he be tried for treason? If so, imagine the uproar if Bush pardoned him.

Yeah and so what?

By the time any trial happened and he was convicted, Bush would be leaving office, so there wouldn’t be any repercussions. People would be upset, and then forget about it after 2 weeks (like Clinton's pardons that were total BS).

[clancy98]

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm

[dante]

Ok, I'll play ball.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8445696/site/newsweek/

how much you want to bet that Rove will do LESS jailtime (or qual if nobody goes to jail) than the reporters who didn't even write the story. god what a sleezy administration.

[clancy98]

:stosh:

[Changleen]

Hmm, what's that smell? ...sniff sniff... Smells like hypocracy!

[clancy98]

at least explain yourself chang. identifying smells does not make one an authority.

[Changleen]

at least explain yourself chang. identifying smells does not make one an authority.Do you need me to draw a picture? I think it's pretty damn obvious what I'm talking about isn't it? Maybe not to a repub...

[MikeD]

Hmmmm, what happened to Toshi's thread??

MD

[Toshi]

Hmmmm, what happened to Toshi's thread??

MD
i deleted it :D after the stories turned out to be less interesting than the headlines. i still think rove should be jailed for being a sleazeball

[N8]

Poor lib's....


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/10/AR2005071001000_pf.html

[MikeD]

Poor lib's....


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/10/AR2005071001000_pf.html

That [Ed:attourney] is kind of glib with the "apparently works at the Agency" part of Rove's statements to Cooper. If Plame didn't work overtly at the CIA at the time of that statement, then in fact, he IS pointing out her identity as a clandestine operative.

He doesn't name her "by name," true...he calls her "Wilson's wife," which is as specific as using a name, and doesn't explicitly state she's a clandestine operative, but says she "works at the Agency." If she's not openly a CIA employee (analyst, janitor, secretary, whatever, at HQ in Langley), and he's pointing out her CIA connections, his statements have the same effect and intention.

That kind of semantic sleight-of-brain is what Clinton tried to pull, remember? "It depends on what you mean by sex..."

Then again, I'm NOT thoroughly familiar with the case....you'll see my "ifs" above. If Plame WAS working openly for the CIA but was concealing clandestine activities on the side (an odd thing, I'd think, but I'm no secret agent), then Mr. Rove is indeed in the clear.

And Novak's still not in prison. That's REALLY the f'd up part of it all.

MD

[DRB]

That [Ed:attourney] is kind of glib with the "apparently works at the Agency" part of Rove's statements to Cooper. If Plame didn't work overtly at the CIA at the time of that statement, then in fact, he IS pointing out her identity as a clandestine operative.

He doesn't name her "by name," true...he calls her "Wilson's wife," which is as specific as using a name, and doesn't explicitly state she's a clandestine operative, but says she "works at the Agency." If she's not openly a CIA employee (analyst, janitor, secretary, whatever, at HQ in Langley), and he's pointing out her CIA connections, his statements have the same effect and intention.

That kind of semantic sleight-of-brain is what Clinton tried to pull, remember? "It depends on what you mean by sex..."

Then again, I'm NOT thoroughly familiar with the case....you'll see my "ifs" above. If Plame WAS working openly for the CIA but was concealing clandestine activities on the side (an odd thing, I'd think, but I'm no secret agent), then Mr. Rove is indeed in the clear.

And Novak's still not in prison. That's REALLY the f'd up part of it all.

MD

As it was she was not working for the CIA but Brewster Jennings & Associates, a CIA cover. She wasn't telling her neighbors and friends that it was the CIA and was only able to tell her husband prior to their marriage because of his high security clearance. So I'd say that she wasn't overtly working for the CIA.

Novak even admitted that when he asked the CIA about her they said not to use her name (which he chose to ignore). He claims that it was a weak request but the CIA claims that it told him that it could cost lives.

Even if she worked for the CIA listed as some sort of analysist but in reality had a much different job more top secret job indicating that fact would also be in violation.

I'm not sure that this has been brought up but Novak and Rove have a history. It was reported in Esquire in 2003 that Karl Rove was fired from the 1992 Bush Presidential campaign for leaking to Robert Novak a damaging story about Rove's direct-mail business competitor Robert Mosbacher Jr.

"Even though I'm a tranquil guy now at this stage of my life, I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors." I wonder who said this....

[the law]

Let's hang him for treason during wartime. : D

Let's see how far the right is willing to ignore fundamental notions of right and wrong to save their asses. It is funny to me how you can claim to be on a moral high horse and then condone treason for political gain. What makes anyone want to support someone who is willing to sell out those people who risk their life for this country for political gain. That seems despicable.
Can anyone honestly claim that this is acceptable?

P.S. I am also amused by the bs excuses offered. Let's not forget the White House already admitted the bad nature of these acts. After all, before it was revealed that Rove committed them, they intended to fire whoever was responsible and did not try and argue that she was not really a covert operative.

[Toshi]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002374617_leak12.html

In 2003, McClellan said it was "a ridiculous suggestion" that Rove was involved. "I've made it very clear he was not involved, that there's no truth to the suggestion that he was," he said. He also said any culprit in the White House should be fired "at a minimum."

At one point, the press secretary vowed: "The president has set high standards, the highest of standards, for people in his administration. He's made it very clear to people in his administration that he expects them to adhere to the highest standards of conduct. If anyone in this administration was involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration."

Bush replied "yes" when asked in June 2004 if he would fire anyone who leaked the agent's name.

[the law]

The other thing that would be funny if it were not so damn serious is Rove's denial. He repeatedly stated that he did not know her name and did not leak her name. If he leaked her husband's name, then should his statement be considered a lie considering it is purposefully misleading?

[stevew]

Rove Resigns Over Ignorance of Plame's Name
by Scott Ott
(2005-07-13) -- A tearful Karl Rove waved goodbye to reporters from the White House lawn today before boarding Marine One for his final ride in the presidential helicopter.

Mr. Rove's long political career came to a shameful end when his attorney was forced to admit that in 2003 the White House political advisor didn't even know the name of the wife of former ambassador Joe Wilson, nor what she did in her job at the CIA.

Official Washington has buzzed for weeks over rumors that Mr. Rove was the White House insider who blew CIA Agent Valerie Plame's cover.

But according to a memo written by Newsweek reporter Matthew Cooper, Mr. Rove didn't seem to know Ms. Plame's name, and had only a vague notion of what she did for a living.

The revelation sent shock waves through an administration that had relied heavily on Mr. Rove to make the president look competent.

"I have asked my dear friend Karl Rove to step down, for the good of the nation," said President Bush in a brief statement to reporters. "Karl will be tough to replace. As most of you know, he's the one who makes me look smart, even though I'm of average intelligence, with college grades no better than Sen. John Kerry's."

[N8]

I think there is a very good possibility that it was a democrat who leaked Plame's name to the reporter which is why she is so damn reluctant to give it up...

[MikeD]

I think there is a very good possibility that it was a democrat who leaked Plame's name to the reporter which is why she is so damn reluctant to give it up...

That's a sound logical connection.

[N8]

In Case You Missed It: Karl Rove, Whistleblower
From The Wall Street Journal
Review & Outlook
July 13, 2005

Democrats and most of the Beltway press corps are baying for Karl Rove's head over his role in exposing a case of CIA nepotism involving Joe Wilson and his wife, Valerie Plame. On the contrary, we'd say the White House political guru deserves a prize--perhaps the next iteration of the "Truth-Telling" award that The Nation magazine bestowed upon Mr. Wilson before the Senate Intelligence Committee exposed him as a fraud.

For Mr. Rove is turning out to be the real "whistleblower" in this whole sorry pseudo-scandal. He's the one who warned Time's Matthew Cooper and other reporters to be wary of Mr. Wilson's credibility. He's the one who told the press the truth that Mr. Wilson had been recommended for the CIA consulting gig by his wife, not by Vice President Dick Cheney as Mr. Wilson was asserting on the airwaves. In short, Mr. Rove provided important background so Americans could understand that Mr. Wilson wasn't a whistleblower but was a partisan trying to discredit the Iraq War in an election campaign. Thank you, Mr. Rove.

Media chants aside, there's no evidence that Mr. Rove broke any laws in telling reporters that Ms. Plame may have played a role in her husband's selection for a 2002 mission to investigate reports that Iraq was seeking uranium ore in Niger. ... But it appears Mr. Rove didn't even know Ms. Plame's name and had only heard about her work at Langley from other journalists.

On the "no underlying crime" point, moreover, no less than the New York Times and Washington Post now agree. So do the 36 major news organizations that filed a legal brief in March aimed at keeping Mr. Cooper and the New York Times's Judith Miller out of jail. ...

In short, Joe Wilson hadn't told the truth about what he'd discovered in Africa, how he'd discovered it, what he'd told the CIA about it, or even why he was sent on the mission. The media and the Kerry campaign promptly abandoned him, though the former never did give as much prominence to his debunking as they did to his original accusations. But if anyone can remember another public figure so entirely and thoroughly discredited, let us know.

If there's any scandal at all here, it is that this entire episode has been allowed to waste so much government time and media attention, not to mention inspire a "special counsel" probe. ...

[Toshi]

uh, please post a link to a report of how the "Senate Intelligence Committee exposed [Ambassador Joseph Wilson] as a fraud". afaik the only fraud perpetrated in the niger-uranium scandal was the outright lies by the bush admin.

[the law]

Perhaps we should ask the pope to convey sainthood on Mr. Rove. :D Hey N8, politics aside, do you honestly feel what Mr. Rove did was right?

In Case You Missed It: Karl Rove, Whistleblower
From The Wall Street Journal
Review & Outlook
July 13, 2005

Democrats and most of the Beltway press corps are baying for Karl Rove's head over his role in exposing a case of CIA nepotism involving Joe Wilson and his wife, Valerie Plame. On the contrary, we'd say the White House political guru deserves a prize--perhaps the next iteration of the "Truth-Telling" award that The Nation magazine bestowed upon Mr. Wilson before the Senate Intelligence Committee exposed him as a fraud.

For Mr. Rove is turning out to be the real "whistleblower" in this whole sorry pseudo-scandal. He's the one who warned Time's Matthew Cooper and other reporters to be wary of Mr. Wilson's credibility. He's the one who told the press the truth that Mr. Wilson had been recommended for the CIA consulting gig by his wife, not by Vice President Dick Cheney as Mr. Wilson was asserting on the airwaves. In short, Mr. Rove provided important background so Americans could understand that Mr. Wilson wasn't a whistleblower but was a partisan trying to discredit the Iraq War in an election campaign. Thank you, Mr. Rove.

Media chants aside, there's no evidence that Mr. Rove broke any laws in telling reporters that Ms. Plame may have played a role in her husband's selection for a 2002 mission to investigate reports that Iraq was seeking uranium ore in Niger. ... But it appears Mr. Rove didn't even know Ms. Plame's name and had only heard about her work at Langley from other journalists.

On the "no underlying crime" point, moreover, no less than the New York Times and Washington Post now agree. So do the 36 major news organizations that filed a legal brief in March aimed at keeping Mr. Cooper and the New York Times's Judith Miller out of jail. ...

In short, Joe Wilson hadn't told the truth about what he'd discovered in Africa, how he'd discovered it, what he'd told the CIA about it, or even why he was sent on the mission. The media and the Kerry campaign promptly abandoned him, though the former never did give as much prominence to his debunking as they did to his original accusations. But if anyone can remember another public figure so entirely and thoroughly discredited, let us know.

If there's any scandal at all here, it is that this entire episode has been allowed to waste so much government time and media attention, not to mention inspire a "special counsel" probe. ...

[dante]

In Case You Missed It: Karl Rove, Whistleblower
From The Wall Street Journal
Review & Outlook
July 13, 2005

...If there's any scandal at all here, it is that this entire episode has been allowed to waste so much government time and media attention, not to mention inspire a "special counsel" probe. ...

uh huh. Like the Kenneth Star probe, $80m and 3 (4?) years to determine that the pres did in fact, have sexual relations with that woman. i'm sure the conservative rags like the WSJ were jumping up and down protesting that investigation...

[N8]

There's no evidence that Mr. Rove broke any laws in telling reporters that Ms. Plame may have played a role in her husband's selection for a 2002 mission to investigate reports that Iraq was seeking uranium ore in Niger. ... But it appears Mr. Rove didn't even know Ms. Plame's name and had only heard about her work at Langley from other journalists.


Nope, don't see the crime here unless it was something Mr. Wilson did.

[N8]

uh huh. Like the Kenneth Star probe, $80m and 3 (4?) years to determine that the pres did in fact, have sexual relations with that woman. i'm sure the conservative rags like the WSJ were jumping up and down protesting that investigation...


and lied about it under oath, etc, etc, etc....

[dante]

and lied about it under oath, etc, etc, etc....

lied under oath about having sexual relations with someone vs. outing the name of a covert CIA operative. Hmmmm, which would YOU think is worse (ya, ya, jackbooted republican response is "of course anything to do with sex is far worse", not surprising)?

not excusing either, but jeez...

[dante]

Nope, don't see the crime here unless it was something Mr. Wilson did.

that wasn't the question, he asked if you thought what Rove did was right, not legal... :D

[N8]

lied under oath about having sexual relations with someone vs. outing the name of a covert CIA operative. Hmmmm, which would YOU think is worse (ya, ya, jackbooted republican response is "of course anything to do with sex is far worse", not surprising)?

not excusing either, but jeez...


it appears Mr. Rove didn't even know Ms. Plame's name and had only heard about her work at Langley from other journalists.

... and who did Rove 'out' again..?

[Changleen]

Cooper noted he had spoken to Rove on "double super secret background" and that Rove had told him that Wilson's "wife...apparently works at the agency on wmd issues."

Either Rove knew that he was revealing an undercover officer to a reporter or he was identifying a CIA officer without bothering to check on her status and without considering the consequences of outing her.

Clear enough for you?

[N8]

Joe Wilson's Top Ten Worst Inaccuracies And Misstatements

1.) Wilson Insisted That The Vice President’s Office Sent Him To Niger:

Wilson Said He Traveled To Niger At CIA Request To Help Provide Response To Vice President’s Office. “In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney’s office had questions about a particular intelligence report. … The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president’s office.” (Joseph C. Wilson, Op-Ed, “What I Didn’t Find In Africa,” The New York Times, 7/6/03)

Joe Wilson: “[W]hat They Did, What The Office Of The Vice President Did, And, In Fact, I Believe Now From Mr. Libby’s Statement, It Was Probably The Vice President Himself ...” (CNN’s “Late Edition,” 8/3/03)
Vice President Cheney: “I Don’t Know Joe Wilson. I’ve Never Met Joe Wilson. … And Joe Wilson - I Don’t [Know] Who Sent Joe Wilson. He Never Submitted A Report That I Ever Saw When He Came Back.” (NBC’s “Meet The Press,” 9/14/03)

CIA Director George Tenet: “In An Effort To Inquire About Certain Reports Involving Niger, CIA’s Counter-Proliferation Experts, On Their Own Initiative, Asked An Individual With Ties To The Region To Make A Visit To See What He Could Learn.” (Central Intelligence Agency, “Statement By George J. Tenet, Director Of Central Intelligence,” Press Release, 7/11/03)

2.) Wilson Claimed The Vice President And Other Senior White House Officials Were Briefed On His Niger Report:

“[Wilson] Believed That [His Report] Would Have Been Distributed To The White House And That The Vice President Received A Direct Response To His Question About The Possible Uranium Deal.” (Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Assessments On Iraq,” 7/7/04)

The Senate Select Committee On Intelligence Reported That The Vice President Was Not Briefed On Wilson’s Report. “Conclusion 14. The Central Intelligence Agency should have told the Vice President and other senior policymakers that it had sent someone to Niger to look into the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium deal and it should have briefed the Vice President on the former ambassador’s findings.” (Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Assessments On Iraq,” 7/7/04)

CIA Director George Tenet: “Because This Report, In Our View, Did Not Resolve Whether Iraq Was Or Was Not Seeking Uranium From Abroad, It Was Given A Normal And Wide Distribution, But We Did Not Brief It To The President, Vice-President Or Other Senior Administration Officials.” (Central Intelligence Agency, “Statement By George J. Tenet, Director Of Central Intelligence,” Press Release, 7/11/03)

3.) Wilson Has Claimed His Niger Report Was Conclusive And Significant

Wilson Claims His Trip Proved There Was Nothing To The Uranium “Allegations.” “I knew that [Dr. Rice] had fundamentally misstated the facts. In fact, she had lied about it. I had gone out and I had undertaken this study. I had come back and said that this was not feasible. … This government knew that there was nothing to these allegations.” (NBC’s, “Meet The Press,” 5/2/04)

Officials Said Evidence In Wilson’s Niger Report Was “Thin” And His “Homework Was Shoddy.” (Michael Duffy, “Leaking With A Vengeance,” Time, 10/13/03)

Senate Select Committee On Intelligence Unanimous Report: “Conclusion 13. The Report On The Former Ambassador’s Trip To Niger, Disseminated In March 2002, Did Not Change Any Analysts’ Assessments Of The Iraq-Niger Uranium Deal.” (Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Assessments On Iraq,” 7/7/04)“For Most Analysts, The Information In The Report Lent More Credibility To The Original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Report On The Uranium Deal, But State Department Bureau Of Intelligence And Research (INR) Analysts Believed That The Report Supported Their Assessments That Niger Was Unlikely To Be Willing Or Able To Sell Uranium.” (Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Assessments On Iraq,” 7/7/04)
CIA Said Wilson’s Findings Did Not Resolve The Issue. “Because [Wilson’s] report, in our view, did not resolve whether Iraq was or was not seeking uranium from abroad, it was given a normal and wide distribution, but we did not brief it to the president, vice president or other senior administration officials. We also had to consider that the former Nigerien officials knew that what they were saying would reach the U.S. government and that this might have influenced what they said.” (Central Intelligence Agency, “Statement By George J. Tenet, Director Of Central Intelligence,” Press Release 7/11/03)

The Butler Report Claimed That The President’s State Of the Union Statement On Uranium From Africa, “Was Well-Founded.” “We conclude that, on the basis of the intelligence assessments at the time, covering both Niger and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the statements on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa in the Government’s dossier, and by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, were well-founded. By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bush’s State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that: ‘The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.’ was well-founded.” (The Rt. Hon. The Lord Butler Of Brockwell, “Review Of Intelligence, On Weapons Of Mass Destruction,” 7/14/04)

4.) Wilson Denied His Wife Suggested He Travel To Niger In 2002:

Wilson Claimed His Wife Did Not Suggest He Travel To Niger To Investigate Reports Of Uranium Deal; Instead, Wilson Claims It Came Out Of Meeting With CIA. CNN’s Wolf Blitzer: “Among other things, you had always said, always maintained, still maintain your wife, Valerie Plame, a CIA officer, had nothing to do with the decision to send to you Niger to inspect reports that uranium might be sold from Niger to Iraq. … Did Valerie Plame, your wife, come up with the idea to send you to Niger?” Joe Wilson: “No. My wife served as a conduit, as I put in my book. When her supervisors asked her to contact me for the purposes of coming into the CIA to discuss all the issues surrounding this allegation of Niger selling uranium to Iraq.” (CNN’s “Late Edition,” 7/18/04)

But Senate Select Committee On Intelligence Received Not Only Testimony But Actual Documentation Indicating Wilson’s Wife Proposed Him For Trip. “Some CPD, [CIA Counterproliferation Division] officials could not recall how the office decided to contact the former ambassador, however, interviews and documents provided to the Committee indicate that his wife, a CPD employee, suggested his name for the trip. The CPD reports officer told Committee staff that the former ambassador’s wife ‘offered up his name’ and a memorandum to the Deputy Chief of the CPD on February 12, 2002, from the former ambassador’s wife says, ‘my husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity.’” (Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq,” U.S. Senate, 7/7/04)

(more...)

[N8]

5.) Wilson Has Claimed His 1999 Trip To Niger Was Not Suggested By His Wife:

Wilson Claims CIA Thought To Ask Him To Make Trip Because He Had Previously Made Trip For Them In 1999, Not Because Of His Wife’s Suggestion. CNN’s Wolf Blitzer: “Who first raised your name, then, based on what you know? Who came up with the idea to send you there?” Joe Wilson: “The CIA knew my name from a trip, and it’s in the report, that I had taken in 1999 related to uranium activities but not related to Iraq. I had served for 23 years in government including as Bill Clinton’s Senior Director for African Affairs at the National Security Council. I had done a lot of work with the Niger government during a period punctuated by a military coup and a subsequent assassination of a president. So I knew all the people there.” (CNN’s “Late Edition,” 7/18/04)

In Fact, His Wife Suggested Him For 1999 Trip, As Well. “The former ambassador had traveled previously to Niger on the CIA’s behalf … The former ambassador was selected for the 1999 trip after his wife mentioned to her supervisors that her husband was planning a business trip to Niger in the near future and might be willing to use his contacts in the region …” (Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq,” U.S. Senate, 7/7/04)

6.) Wilson Claimed He Was A Victim Of A Partisan Smear Campaign

Joe Wilson: “Well, I Don’t Know. Obviously, There’s Been This Orchestrated Campaign, This Smear Campaign. I Happen To Think That It’s Because The RNC, The Republican National Committee’s Been Involved In This In A Big Way …” CNN’s Wolf Blitzer: “But They Weren’t Involved In The Senate Intelligence Committee Report.” Wilson: “No, They Weren’t.” (CNN’s “Late Edition,” 7/18/04)

Senate Intelligence Committee Unanimously Concluded That Wilson’s Report “Lent More Credibility” For Most Analysts “To The Original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Reports.” “Conclusion 13. The report on the former ambassador’s trip to Niger, disseminated in March 2002, did not change any analysts’ assessments of the Iraq-Niger uranium deal. For most analysts, the information in the report lent more credibility to the original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports on the uranium deal, but the State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) analysts believed that the report supported their assessment that Niger was unlikely to be willing or able to sell uranium to Iraq.” (Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq,” U.S. Senate, 7/7/04)

Members Of The Senate Select Committee On Intelligence That Wrote The Unanimous “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq”:

Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV)

Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI)

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA)

Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR)

Sen. Richard Durbin (D-IL)

Sen. Evan Bayh (D-IN)

Sen. John Edwards (D-NC)

Sen. Barbara Mikulski (D-MD)

Sen. Pat Roberts (R-KS)

Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT)

Sen. Mike DeWine (R-OH)

Sen. Christopher Bond (R-MO)

Sen. Trent Lott (R-MS)

Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-ME)

Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE)

Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-GA)

Sen. John Warner (R-VA)

(Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq,” U.S. Senate, 7/7/04)

7.) A Month Before The Bob Novak And Matthew Cooper Articles Ever Came Out, Wilson Told The Washington Post That Previous Intelligence Reports About Niger Were Based On Forged Documents:

In June Of 2003, Wilson Told The Washington Post “The Niger Intelligence Was Based On Documents That Had Clearly Been Forged Because ‘The Dates Were Wrong And The Names Were Wrong.’” (Susan Schmidt, “Plame’s Input Is Cited On Niger Mission,” The Washington Post, 7/10/04)

However, “The [Senate Select Committee On Intelligence] Report … Said Wilson Provided Misleading Information To The Washington Post Last June [12th, 2003].” (Susan Schmidt, “Plame’s Input Is Cited On Niger Mission,” The Washington Post, 7/10/04)

Senate Select Committee On Intelligence Unanimous Report: “The Former Ambassador Said That He May Have ‘Misspoken’ To The Reporter When He Said He Concluded The Documents Were ‘Forged.’” (Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Assessments On Iraq,” 7/7/04)
8.) Wilson Claimed His Book Would Enrich Debate:

NBC’s Katie Couric: “What Do You Hope The Whole Point Of This Book Will Be? Joe Wilson: “Well, I - I Hope, One, It Will Tell - It Tries To Tell An Interesting Story. Two, I Hope That It Enriches The Debate In A Year In Which We Are All Called Upon As Americans To Elect Our Leaders. And Three, … That [It] Says That This Is A Great Democracy That Is Worthy Of Our Taking Our Responsibilities As Stewards Seriously.” (NBC’s “Today Show,” 5/3/04)

Wilson Admits In His Book That He Had Been Involved In “A Little Literary Flair” When Talking To Reporters. “[Wilson] wrote in his book, he told Committee staff that his assertion may have involved ‘a little literary flair.’” (Matthew Continetti, “‘A Little Literary Flair’” The Weekly Standard, 7/26/04)

Wilson’s Book The Politics Of Truth: Inside The Lies That Put The White House On Trial And Betrayed My Wife’s CIA Identity Has Been Panned In Numerous Reviews For Its Inaccuracies:

“On Page One Of Chapter One, He Quotes NBC Talk Show Host Chris Matthews, Who Told Him That, After Mr. Wilson Chose To Go Public: ‘Wilson’s Wife Is Fair Game.’ Later, He Bases His List Of Suspect Leakers On Conversations With Members Of The News Media And A ‘Source Close To The House Judiciary Committee.’” (Eli Lake, Op-Ed, “Don’t Quit Your Day Job, Mr. Wilson,” New York Post, 5/4/04)

“For Example, When Asked How He ‘Knew’ That The Intelligence Community Had Rejected The Possibility Of A Niger-Iraq Uranium Deal, As He Wrote In His Book, He Told [Senate Intelligence] Committee Staff That His Assertion May Have Involved ‘A Little Literary Flair.’” (Matthew Continetti, “‘A Little Literary Flair,’” The Weekly Standard, 7/26/04)

The Boston Globe: “In Essence, Much Of Wilson’s Book Is An Attempt To Portray The Bush Administration As A Ministry Of Fear Whose Mission In Pursuing War In Iraq Required It To Proclaim A Lie As Truth.” (Michael D. Langan, Op-Ed, “‘Truth’ Makes Much Of Bush Controversy,” The Boston Globe, 5/4/04)

Newsweek’s Evan Thomas Wrote In The Washington Post: “[W]ilson’s Claims And Conclusions Are Either Long Hashed Over Or Based On What The Intelligence Business Describes As ‘Rumint,’ Or Rumor Intelligence.” (Evan Thomas, Op-Ed, “Indecent Exposure,” The Washington Post, 5/16/04)
9.) Wilson Claimed The CIA Provided Him With Information Related To The Iraq-Niger Uranium Transaction:

“The Former Ambassador Noted That His CIA Contacts Told Him There Were Documents Pertaining To The Alleged Iraq-Niger Uranium Transaction And That The Source Of The Information Was The [Redacted] Intelligence Service.” (Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Assessments On Iraq,” 7/7/04)

However, “The DO [Director Of Operations At The CIA] Reports Officer Told Committee Staff That He Did Not Provide The Former Ambassador With Any Information About The Source Or Details …” (Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Assessments On Iraq,” 7/7/04)
10.) Wilson Claimed He Is A Non-Partisan “Centrist”:
Recently, Joe Wilson Refused To Admit He Is A Registered Democrat. NBC’s Jamie Gangel: “You are a Democrat?” Joe Wilson: “I exercise my rights as a citizen of this country to participate in the selection of my leaders and I am proud to do so. I did so in the election in 2000 by contributing not just to Al Gore's campaign, but also to the Bush-Cheney campaign.” (NBC’s “Today Show,” 7/14/05)

“[Wilson] Insist[s] He Remained A Centrist At Heart.” (Scott Shane, “Private Spy And Public Spouse Live At Center Of Leak Case,” The New York Times, 7/5/05)

Joe Wilson Is A Registered Democrat. (District Of Columbia Voter Registrations, Accessed 7/14/05)

Joseph Wilson Has Donated Over $8,000 To Democrats Including $2,000 To John Kerry For President In 2003, $1,000 To Hillary Clinton’s (D-NY) HILLPAC In 2002 And $3,000 To Al Gore In 1999. (The Center For Responsive Politics Website, www.opensecrets.org, Accessed 7/12/05)

Wilson Endorsed John Kerry For President In October 2003 And Advised The Kerry Campaign. (David Tirrell-Wysocki, “Former Ambassador Wilson Endorses Kerry In Presidential Race,” The Associated Press, 10/23/03)

“[Wilson] Admits ‘It Will Be A Cold Day In Hell Before I Vote For A Republican, Even For Dog Catcher.’” (Scott Shane, “Private Spy And Public Spouse Live At Center Of Leak Case,” The New York Times, 7/5/05)

[Toshi]

1) whoever wrote those "summaries" or whatever that drivel should be properly classifed as is severely lacking in capitalization skills. Every Word Should Not Be Capitalized. (yes, i don't capitalize when writing for this audience. bite me.)

2) several paragraphs are repeated verbatim.

3) there is much "artistic license" in the summary points vs. the material supposedly backing it up. for example, stating that "wilson claimed that the vp" had been briefed is significantly different than "wilson believed that the report would have been distributed to the vp". besides, monkey-no-see is no excuse for cheney.

4) even assuming the following quote is not falsified, which i wouldn't put past any self-disrespecting neocon kowtower these days, it only indicates that there was internal debate over the validity of the niger uranium claim, and perhaps that the cia analysts are afraid to go against their hand-picked chief:

“For Most Analysts, The Information In The Report Lent More Credibility To The Original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Report On The Uranium Deal, But State Department Bureau Of Intelligence And Research (INR) Analysts Believed That The Report Supported Their Assessments That Niger Was Unlikely To Be Willing Or Able To Sell Uranium.” (Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, “Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Assessments On Iraq,” 7/7/04)

[the law]

Hey N8,

you seem to skip the biggest question. Do you think what Karl Rove did was right? Stop posting this drivel and take a stand.

[Ridemonkey]

I think there is a very good possibility that it was a democrat who leaked Plame's name to the reporter which is why she is so damn reluctant to give it up...

You're the Corky of the political forum.

[$tinkle]

You're the Corky of the political forum.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/lanemeyer/forum/forumpics/prize.jpg

[Silver]

Hey N8,

you seem to skip the biggest question. Do you think what Karl Rove did was right? Stop posting this drivel and take a stand.

You don't come around these parts too often, d'ya stranger?

:D

[$tinkle]

1) whoever wrote those "summaries" or whatever that drivel should be properly classifed as is severely lacking in capitalization skills. Every Word Should Not Be Capitalized. (yes, i don't capitalize when writing for this audience. bite me.)do forgive n8 for not preserving the fontenization of the list, as found on gop.com (http://www.gop.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=5630). why presentation would matter over substance is beyond me. do explain if you feel the need.
2) several paragraphs are repeated verbatim.redundancy of "repeated verbatim" aside, what paragraphs were repeated? i see sentences within 2 paragraphs that were repeated, as they were germaine to their listing. more misdirection?3) there is much "artistic license" in the summary points vs. the material supposedly backing it up. for example, stating that "wilson claimed that the vp" had been briefed is significantly different than "wilson believed that the report would have been distributed to the vp". besides, monkey-no-see is no excuse for cheney.since you are loathe to artistic license, i look forward to your keen assessment of chang's posts re: cia leak Q&A, & the press pool feeding frenzy, which certainly were bleeding with artistic license.4) even assuming the following quote is not falsified, which i wouldn't put past any self-disrespecting neocon kowtower these days, it only indicates that there was internal debate over the validity of the niger uranium claim, and perhaps that the cia analysts are afraid to go against their hand-picked chief:then you must hold the same position about sting operations that catch would-be child molesters, too, eh?

finally, i've reviewed various threads wrt high ranking officials abusing their positions & access to classified information in order to gain political advantage at the cost of nat'l security, and the one question i have for you is: do you know who sandy berger is?

[N8]

do you know who sandy berger is?

You mean Sandy "OOps, the documents accidently fell into my pants" Berger??

[Changleen]

do forgive n8 for not preserving the fontenization of the list, as found on gop.com (http://www.gop.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=5630). why presentation would matter over substance is beyond me. do explain if you feel the need.
redundancy of "repeated verbatim" aside, what paragraphs were repeated? i see sentences within 2 paragraphs that were repeated, as they were germaine to their listing. more misdirection?since you are loathe to artistic license, i look forward to your keen assessment of chang's posts re: cia leak Q&A, & the press pool feeding frenzy, which certainly were bleeding with artistic license.then you must hold the same position about sting operations that catch would-be child molesters, too, eh?

finally, i've reviewed various threads wrt high ranking officials abusing their positions & access to classified information in order to gain political advantage at the cost of nat'l security, and the one question i have for you is: do you know who sandy berger is?
It really is amazing how you can write so much and still utterly avoid addressing the main issue. It's almost like you're doing it on purpose. :oink:

[$tinkle]

It really is amazing how you can write so much and still utterly avoid addressing the main issue. It's almost like you're doing it on purpose. :oink:looks like toshi ducked & it hit me.

[N8]

Media Admits Rove is Innocent (http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=2238)

[the law]

Seem like me that someone is a spineless windbag that likes to post other people's positions without having to defend his own. :devil: :evil: :D

[N8]

Seem like me that someone is a spineless windbag that likes to post other people's positions without having to defend his own. :devil: :evil: :D

duhhhh...

It's well known I am a pro-right-wing NewsBot...

I'm only good at cutting and pasting political crap and posting links to hot brazilian chicks....

[the law]

duhhhh...

It's well known I am a pro-right-wing NewsBot...

As long as you can keep a good sense of humor about it, its all good with me. :D

[$tinkle]

Media Admits Rove is Innocent (http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=2238)the howler of this is that CBS, CNN, Dallas Morning News, Harpers, Reuters, Tribune Co. (chi trib & la times), WhiteHouse correspondents, Newsweek, & WashPo signed onto it. (conspicuously absent were the Nation & al-jizzbag)

two of the cases used for precedents were hustler mag v. falwell & US v NYT!!!

who know who's wisely unquotable on this topic? reporting from the tellingly named the hill (http://www.thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/071405/kerry.html):
At a press conference Tuesday on homeland security, as Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) nodded in agreement, Kerry said: “Karl Rove ought to be fired.” Kerry also circulated a “fire Rove” petition yesterday through his leadership political action committee to nearly 3 million Democratic activists.

funny how soon we've all forgotten the downing street memos, eh??

[Changleen]

funny how soon we've all forgotten the downing street memos, eh??Not exactly 'funny', but predictable and disapointing. It must be great to have the attention span of a goldfish.

[$tinkle]

Not exactly 'funny', but predictable and disapointing. It must be great to have the attention span of a goldfish.It really is amazing how you can write so much and still utterly avoid addressing the main issue. It's almost like you're doing it on purpose.

oops, almost forgot this: :oink:


you cheer for lance, don't you?

[Changleen]

oops, almost forgot this: :oink:Can we get this guy's custom title changed to 'Mr. Relevant'?
you cheer for lance, don't you?No. Road cycling is boring.

So what excuse do you have for your beloved administration's utter hypocracy this time? They said anyone who was involved in the leak would be fired. Now Rove turns out to be the leaker, he is not fired and the white house clams up like a teenage rape victim. What gives?

[$tinkle]

So what excuse do you have for your beloved administration's utter hypocracy this time? They said anyone who was involved in the leak would be fired. Now Rove turns out to be the leaker, he is not fired and the white house clams up like a teenage rape victim. What gives?
"utter hypocracy" would mean bush's refusal to fire; the investigation (to quote scotty) is "ongoing". seems to me you want a fair trial right before the hanging.

here's a little update (http://nytimes.com/2005/07/15/politics/15rove.html?ei=5094&en=15d2c0ff1133350b&hp=&ex=1121400000&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print) which may settle a couple matters.

of note: 'After hearing Mr. Novak's account, the person who has been briefed on the matter said, Mr. Rove told the columnist: "I heard that, too." '

so, this may be a matter of (as quoted in the NYT piece) splitting hairs. yeah, KR was rather close; maybe a bit too close.

friggin' evil genius, eh?

[$tinkle]

also of note, news-googling karl rove give me the spoof (http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s2i8617) (bush: "karl rove was the leaker") & unconfirmed sources (http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/?itemid=1072&catid=7) (bush names karl rove to vice-VP). These were #s 2 & 3.

not to try & breath air back into an otherwise properly thrashed googlenews thread, but WTF, over?

[gigapower]

$tinkle your avatar is perfect.

[$tinkle]

ok, i think i can wrap this up with a neat little bow on top:
the "crime" is whether or not a covert agent's identity was leaked.
valerie plame returned from an overseas assignment to work at langley w/ her husband-to-be in 1997 (no longer a covert agent).
IIPA stipulates a five-year period for what we may call a "gag-order"
valerie plame's identity was confirmed to novak by rove in 2003. (get out the pink-bike calculator)

furthermore, the transcript (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/14/wbr.01.html) from wolf blitzer today:BLITZER: But the other argument that's been made against you is that you've sought to capitalize on this extravaganza, having that photo shoot with your wife, who was a clandestine officer of the CIA, and that you've tried to enrich yourself writing this book and all of that.

What do you make of those accusations, which are serious accusations, as you know, that have been leveled against you.

WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.on that note, think i'll go shopping (http://www.cafepress.com/shop/politics/browse/rove?CMP=KAC-googleh)

[N8]

Ahhh....

Rove Learned CIA Agent's Name From Novak
AP - Fri Jul 15, 8:09 AM ET

WASHINGTON - Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of an undercover CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources, according to a person briefed on the testimony. The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.

[$tinkle]

sandy burglar lies about a nat'l security issue [liberals silent]
karl rove told the truth about a (purported & perhaps false) nat'l security issue [liberals unhinged]

did i get that right?

[Toshi]

"he remembers specifically" that novak told him. uh, right.

[Westy]

sandy burglar lies about a nat'l security issue [liberals silent]
karl rove told the truth about a (purported & perhaps false) nat'l security issue [liberals unhinged]

did i get that right?

last time I checked that was how politics worked. Replace Burgers name with a repub name and some other scandal then swap out liberals for cons and the same will hold true. Maybe I am just too cynical and only half the polititians out there are lying backstabbing partisan assholes.

[Changleen]

sandy burglar lies about a nat'l security issue [liberals silent]
karl rove told the truth about a (purported & perhaps false) nat'l security issue [liberals unhinged]

did i get that right?Sandy isn't in a position of extreme power and responsibility...

[gigapower]

Sandy Burglar also is not one of the President's puppet masters like Karl is.

[DRB]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8605680/

WASHINGTON - White House political aide Karl Rove was the first person to tell a Time magazine reporter that the wife of a prominent critic of the Bush administration's Iraq policy was a CIA officer, the reporter said in an article Sunday.

Time correspondent Matthew Cooper said he told a grand jury last week that Rove told him the woman worked at the "agency," or CIA, on weapons of mass destruction issues, and ended the call by saying "I've already said too much."

[the law]

http://writ.corporate.findlaw.com/dean/20050715.html


The Jonathan Randel Leak Prosecution Precedent

I am referring to the prosecution and conviction of Jonathan Randel. Randel was a Drug Enforcement Agency analyst, a PhD in history, working in the Atlanta office of the DEA. Randel was convinced that British Lord Michael Ashcroft (a major contributor to Britain's Conservative Party, as well as American conservative causes) was being ignored by DEA, and its investigation of money laundering. (Lord Ashcroft is based in South Florida and the off-shore tax haven of Belize.)

Randel leaked the fact that Lord Ashcroft's name was in the DEA files, and this fact soon surfaced in the London news media. Ashcroft sued, and learned the source of the information was Randel. Using his clout, soon Ashcroft had the U.S. Attorney in pursuit of Randel for his leak.

By late February 2002, the Department of Justice indicted Randel for his leaking of Lord Ashcroft's name. It was an eighteen count "kitchen sink" indictment; they threw everything they could think of at Randel. Most relevant for Karl Rove's situation, Court One of Randel's indictment alleged a violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 641. This is a law that prohibits theft (or conversion for one's own use) of government records and information for non-governmental purposes. But its broad language covers leaks, and it has now been used to cover just such actions.

Randel, faced with a life sentence (actually, 500 years) if convicted on all counts, on the advice of his attorney, pleaded guilty to violating Section 641. On January 9, 2003, Randel was sentenced to a year in a federal prison, followed by three years probation. This sentence prompted the U.S. Attorney to boast that the conviction of Randel made a good example of how the Bush Administration would handle leakers.

Plus, there could easily be conspiracy charges based on Rove's subsequent e-mails.

[Changleen]

There really is no end to the lies, spin, hypocracy and double standards that come out of this White House. It's sickening. It's even sadder to see people defending it in the press. Bush himself has now changed his tack again from saying he would sack anyone involved (which turned out to be nearly everyone) to now saying he'll only sack anyone found guilty. Lame.

[DRB]

There really is no end to the lies, spin, hypocracy and double standards that come out of this White House. It's sickening. It's even sadder to see people defending it in the press. Bush himself has now changed his tack again from saying he would sack anyone involved (which turned out to be nearly everyone) to now saying he'll only sack anyone found guilty. Lame.

The backpedaling is quite pathetic....

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/18/cia.leak/index.html

President Bush told reporters Monday that if anyone committed a crime in connection with the leak of a CIA agent's identity, "they will no longer work in my administration."

I'm guessing its going to chalked up to a "clarification."

[Changleen]

...if anyone committed a crime in connection with the leak of a CIA agent's identityOther crimes unrelated to this, such as price fixing of contracts, insider trading, draft dodging, war crimes, and so on are all fine. :think:

[the law]

Just read this

"Rep. Henry Waxman (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif., said Bush's standard for firing Rove was not consistent with a 2-year-old executive order governing the protection of national secrets. Under the order, Bush is required to impose administrative sanctions such as dismissal if anyone acted negligently in confirming information about Plame's identity."

Interesting. Would love to read the executive order itself.

[Changleen]

Basically the only hope there is of Rove actually leaving Government is for him to be indicted. The Judge has to charge him.

[lonewolfe]

There won't be any jail time for anyone in the Bush Administration. Those bastards are slicker than snot. I doubt anyone will even loose their job.

[ohio]

Glad to see Bush's campaign platform of "personal responsibility and accountability" is being executed to the fullest extent...

[Silver]

Glad to see Bush's campaign platform of "personal responsibility and accountability" is being executed to the fullest extent...

You never got the GOP memo:

It's personal responsibility for everyone else. See Noelle Bush's forged prescription problems...that's a family matter, right? Rush Limbaugh buying painkillers in Elvis-like quantities? Same deal.

But Joe Public smoking a joint? Federal prison for the bastard. That's the only way they'll learn.

[Changleen]

I like this passage from a New Mexico publication:

Although he's the nation's chief executive, President George W. Bush apparently is going to have to wait for special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald to tell him about the involvement of key White House aides in the CIA-leak affair.

Bush* told reporters earlier this week that he doesn't "know all the facts" but that he wants to.

Of course, he could invite Karl Rove to an Oval Office meeting where the president could say, "Karl, what happened?" Or he could ask I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, to come clean.But, he's too much of a retard. Or maybe he's a truth dodging liar. Both good situations for the President to be in.

[DRB]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9686217/

Fitzgerald has a variety of options as he weighs whether anyone broke a law that bars the intentional unmasking of a covert CIA officer. Defense lawyers increasingly are concerned Fitzgerald might pursue other charges such as making false statements, obstruction of justice or mishandling of classified information.

what was that N8 said got clinton in trouble...

Novak said his sources were two senior administration officials. Rove spoke to Novak about Wilson’s wife and is apparently one of Novak’s sources. The other is still a public mystery. Novak is believed to have cooperated with Fitzgerald’s investigation, though he has declined to comment on the matter.

And didn't Rove say that Novak told him and not this way.

“They are good individuals,” White House spokesman Scott McClellan said of Rove and Libby on Oct. 7, 2003. “They are important members of our White House team. And that’s why I spoke with them, so that I could come back to you and say that they were not involved. I had no doubt with that in the beginning, but I like to check my information to make sure it’s accurate before I report back to you, and that’s exactly what I did.”

And remember in the way back machine when the White House completely denied having any involvement at all?

The White House denials of Rove’s and Libby’s involvement collapsed three months ago, when Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper testified that Rove had been one of his sources for a story that identified Wilson’s wife. Libby was another of Cooper’s sources for the story, which asked the question, “Has the Bush administration declared war on a former ambassador?”

The White House has shifted from categorical denials two years ago that Rove or Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, were involved in the leak of a covert CIA officer’s identity to “no comment” today.

In the end I'm guessing that Libby is going to end up falling on the sword.

[Changleen]

I'm sorry your Pres and his crew are such complete dill holes.

[DRB]

Now the real reason Fitzpatrick wanted to talk to Judith Miller is coming out.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aSuj1d8CcYAk&refer=top_world_news

A special counsel is focusing on whether Vice President Dick Cheney played a role in leaking a covert CIA agent's name, according to people familiar with the probe that already threatens top White House aides Karl Rove and Lewis Libby.

The special counsel, Patrick Fitzgerald, has questioned current and former officials of President George W. Bush's administration about whether Cheney was involved in an effort to discredit the agent's husband, Iraq war critic and former U.S. diplomat Joseph Wilson, according to the people.

Fitzgerald has questioned Cheney's communications adviser Catherine Martin and former spokeswoman Jennifer Millerwise and ex-White House aide Jim Wilkinson about the vice president's knowledge of the anti-Wilson campaign and his dealings on it with Libby, his chief of staff, the people said. The information came from multiple sources, who requested anonymity because of the secrecy and political sensitivity of the investigation.

Also the Miller testimony may have helped load up on obstruction of justice charges against Libby.

And here is why its very likely that someone is getting charged with something.

Fitzgerald's status differs in one potentially important respect from the independent counsels who investigated alleged wrongdoing during earlier administrations. They reported to a panel of appellate judges, while Fitzgerald reports to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, who at least theoretically must approve any indictment.

How if he even has a half decent case, can the AG not approve any indictments? Can you imagine how much worse of a firestorm that would create?

[Changleen]

How if he even has a half decent case, can the AG not approve any indictments? Can you imagine how much worse of a firestorm that would create?Only if people pay attention. This is very interesting to us, but clearly dry as sh1t to some people.

[Changleen]

A Ha...
Bush adviser set to resign over CIA leak
17/10/2005 - 16:09:59

Karl Rove, US President George Bush’s chief political adviser, will step down if indicted in connection with the leaked identity of a CIA agent, it has been claimed.

He would resign or take unpaid leave if accused of a crime by a grand jury, according to Time magazine.

Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald is investigating whether anyone in the Bush administration broke the law by revealing the identity of covert CIA operative Valerie Plame.

Judith Miller, a New York Times journalist, spent three months in jail for refusing to reveal her sources in connection with the story that has caused a furore in the US.

She eventually agreed to testify last month, naming Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff Lewis “Scooter” Libby as a contact.

Rove became embroiled in the scandal after discussing the matter with Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper.

He and Libby are two of the most powerful political players in Washington.

Time magazine said resignation was the most likely scenario if either man is indicted, citing several legal and political sources.

Rove could be charged with perjury for failing to testify that he had spoken to Cooper about Plame, despite later correcting himself.

A former White House official said Rove’s break with Bush would have to be clean, with no “giving advice from the sidelines” for the sake of the administration.

Plame was an expert on weapons of mass destruction whose husband, Joseph Wilson, is a former ambassador who questioned President George Bush’s claims that Saddam Hussein’s regime was trying to buy uranium in Africa.

Her identity was first revealed by syndicated columnist Robert Novak on July 14, 2003.

No charges have been filed. The grand jury ends its investigation on October 28.

[DRB]

A Ha...


He would resign or take unpaid leave if accused of a crime by a grand jury, according to Time magazine.

I just can't imagine anything short resignation for all the earlier bluster in this matter.

[DRB]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/20/cia.leak.investigation.ap/index.html

Top White House aides Karl Rove and I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby discussed their contacts with reporters about an undercover CIA officer in the days before her identity was published, the first known intersection between two central figures in the criminal leak investigation.

That's could be called conspiracy. Fitzgerald also as indicated that he has no plans to release a report on his findings. This strongly indicates that indictments are almost a sure thing as it is unlikely that anyone would accept this being closed with virtually no official outputs.

What's sad is that because there isn't a sex component to this the majority of people just don't care.

[N8]

You and the media are gonna be *so* disappointed when it's revealed that the Bush admin had nothing to do with this...

[DRB]

You and the media are gonna be *so* disappointed when it's revealed that the Bush admin had nothing to do with this...

So you honestly believe that come next week this is simply going to end?

[N8]

So you honestly believe that come next week this is simply going to end?


I think its going to be a lot less that what the media is wanting it to be.

[MMike]

So...... how 'bout that tom delay and his arrest warrant

[N8]

So...... how 'bout that tom delay and his arrest warrant


I think that one will go no where as well since the democratic state att'y is making it pretty clear it is a politically motivated witchhunt.

[DRB]

I think its going to be a lot less that what the media is wanting it to be.

Yeah obstruction of justice and perjury aren't that big a deal. Interesting how perceptions change depending on the target.

[N8]

Yeah obstruction of justice and perjury aren't that big a deal. Interesting how perceptions change depending on the target.


Ok, I admit... I'm just messing with y'all.... if he guilty, let him go to jail for it. But let's have a trial first.

[DRB]

Ok, I admit... I'm just messing with y'all.... if he guilty, let him go to jail for it. But let's have a trial first.

Again I find it interesting how perceptions change depending on the investigation target.

[N8]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/20/D8DBVNSO8.html

[N8]

Time for the media/Liberals to apologize to Mr. Rove...


One Leak and a Flood of Silliness
By David S. Broder
Thursday, September 7, 2006

Conspiracy theories flourish in politics, and most of them have no more basis than spring training hopes for the Chicago Cubs.

Whenever things turn dicey for Republicans, they complain about the "liberal media" sabotaging them. And when Democrats get in a jam, they take up Hillary Clinton's warnings about a "vast right-wing conspiracy."

For much of the past five years, dark suspicions have been voiced about the Bush White House undermining its critics, and Karl Rove has been fingered as the chief culprit in this supposed plot to suppress the opposition.

Now at least one count in that indictment has been substantially weakened -- the charge that Rove masterminded a conspiracy to discredit Iraq intelligence critic Joseph Wilson by "outing" his CIA-operative wife, Valerie Plame.

I have written almost nothing about the Wilson-Plame case, because it seemed overblown to me from the start. Wilson's claim in a New York Times op-ed about his memo on the supposed Iraqi purchase of uranium yellowcake from Niger; the Robert D. Novak column naming Plame as the person who had recommended Wilson to check up on the reported sale; the call for a special prosecutor and the lengthy interrogation that led to the jailing of Judith Miller of the New York Times and the deposition of several other reporters; and, finally, the indictment of Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Cheney's chief of staff -- all of this struck me as being a tempest in a teapot.

No one behaved well in the whole mess -- not Wilson, not Libby, not special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald and not the reporters involved.

The only time I commented on the case was to caution reporters who offered bold First Amendment defenses for keeping their sources' names secret that they had better examine the motivations of the people leaking the information to be sure they deserve protection.

But caution has been notably lacking in some of the press treatment of this subject -- especially when it comes to Karl Rove. And it behooves us in the media to examine that behavior, not just sweep it under the rug.

Sidney Blumenthal, a former aide to President Bill Clinton and now a columnist for several publications, has just published a book titled, "How Bush Rules: Chronicles of a Radical Regime." It is a collection of his columns for Salon, including one originally published on July 14, 2005, titled "Rove's War."

It was occasioned by the disclosure of a memo from Time magazine's Matt Cooper, saying that Rove had confirmed to him the identity of Valerie Plame. To Blumenthal, that was proof that this "was political payback against Wilson by a White House that wanted to shift the public focus from the Iraq War to Wilson's motives."

Then Blumenthal went off on a rant: "While the White House stonewalls, Rove has license to run his own damage control operation. His surrogates argue that if Rove did anything, it wasn't a crime. . . . Rove is fighting his war as though it will be settled in a court of Washington pundits. Brandishing his formidable political weapons, he seeks to demonstrate his prowess once again. His corps of agents raises a din in which their voices drown out individual dissidents. His frantic massing of forces dominates the capital by winning the communications battle. Indeed, Rove may succeed momentarily in quelling the storm. But the stillness may be illusory. Before the prosecutor, Rove's arsenal is useless."

In fact, the prosecutor concluded that there was no crime; hence, no indictment. And we now know that the original "leak," in casual conversations with reporters Novak and Bob Woodward, came not from the conspiracy theorists' target in the White House but from the deputy secretary of state at the time, Richard Armitage, an esteemed member of the Washington establishment and no pal of Rove or President Bush.

Blumenthal's example is far from unique. Newsweek, in a July 25, 2005, cover story on Rove, after dutifully noting that Rove's lawyer said the prosecutor had told him that Rove was not a target of the investigation, added: "But this isn't just about the Facts, it's about what Rove's foes regard as a higher Truth: That he is a one-man epicenter of a narrative of Evil."

And in the American Prospect's cover story for August 2005, Joe Conason wrote that Rove "is a powerful bully. Fear of retribution has stifled those who might have revealed his secrets. He has enjoyed the impunity of a malefactor who could always claim, however implausibly, deniability -- until now."

These and other publications owe Karl Rove an apology. And all of journalism needs to relearn the lesson: Can the conspiracy theories and stick to the facts.

[RenegadeRick]

Did you read this Slate article (http://www.slate.com/id/2148555/) on the subject?


Armitage identified himself to Colin Powell as Novak's source before the Fitzgerald inquiry had even been set on foot. The whole thing could—and should—have ended right there. But now read this and rub your eyes: William Howard Taft, the State Department's lawyer who had been told about Armitage (and who had passed on the name to the Justice Department)

also felt obligated to inform White House counsel Alberto Gonzales. But Powell and his aides feared the White House would then leak that Armitage had been Novak's source—possibly to embarrass State Department officials who had been unenthusiastic about Bush's Iraq policy. So Taft told Gonzales the bare minimum: that the State Department had passed some information about the case to Justice. He didn't mention Armitage. Taft asked if Gonzales wanted to know the details. The president's lawyer, playing the case by the book, said no, and Taft told him nothing more.


In simpler terms, the Whitehouse knew all along whodunit and yet wasted the taxpayer's funds on a grand jury investigation.

Sorry Karl. I guess you aren't as much of a
http://www.hostdub.com/albums/blanginDE/tasty_pizza_topping.sized.jpg
as we all thought. My aplologies. :redface:

[$tinkle]

n00zweek (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14533384/site/newsweek/page/2/)
Taft, the State Department lawyer, also felt obligated to inform White House counsel Alberto Gonzales. But Powell and his aides feared the White House would then leak that Armitage had been Novak's source—possibly to embarrass State Department officials who had been unenthusiastic about Bush's Iraq policy. So Taft told Gonzales the bare minimum: that the State Department had passed some information about the case to Justice. He didn't mention Armitage. Taft asked if Gonzales wanted to know the details. The president's lawyer, playing the case by the book, said no, and Taft told him nothing more. Armitage's role thus remained that rarest of Washington phenomena: a hot secret that never leaked.In simpler terms, the Whitehouse knew all along whodunit and yet wasted the taxpayer's funds on a grand jury investigation.or in more [sic] simpler terms, they didn't

but since you're holding that torch of accountability, are you going to get scooter libby his job back? didn't think so.


...back to $leep

[RenegadeRick]

n00zweek (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14533384/site/newsweek/page/2/)
or in more [sic] simpler terms, they didn't

but since you're holding that torch of accountability, are you going to get scooter libby his job back? didn't think so.


...back to $leep


:busted: Wake up! :busted:

Did you read the Newsweek article you linked? Powell was a member of the Whitehouse staff, and he knew Armitage was the guy and decided to hold back the info.

It also states that Rove confirmed the ID to Novak and Cooper (which seems just as serious as the initial leak to me):

Karl Rove confirmed to Novak that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA, and days later offered the same information to Time reporter Matt Cooper.


And it states that Libby cooked his own goose:

The inquiry into the case led to the indictment of Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice.

[N8]

n00zweek (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14533384/site/newsweek/page/2/)
or in more [sic] simpler terms, they didn't

but since you're holding that torch of accountability, are you going to get scooter libby his job back? didn't think so.


...back to $leep


Wow!!!

$tinkle makes his first post in a year...

:)

[$tinkle]

Did you read the Newsweek article you linked? Powell was a member of the Whitehouse staff, and he knew Armitage was the guy and decided to hold back the info.no, powell was the sec of state, which is hardly a staff position. it is a cabinet position, 4th in succession to the presidency, which could be used to manufacture more feigned outrage, except that powell is inconveniently the left's favourite anti-bush pawn. are you not disturbed that the left wanted to hang scooter for what they (incorrectly) believed was his role & what he knew, yet are now mum to know it was the enemy-of-their-enemy? seems all too obvious now the hysterical left isn't on the side of truth on this topic, as they are now shown for all to see what so many of us have known along: they are peddlers in patter
It also states that Rove confirmed the ID to Novak and Cooper (which seems just as serious as the initial leak to me):please don't be alarmed if you're not considered for appointment to the position of special prosecutor
And it states that Libby cooked his own goose:sorry, explain "indictment" to me again, & as it relates to the 14th amendment (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment14/03.html#1). as it stands now, he's not been convicted, nor has he plead out.

[ALEXIS_DH]

no, powell was the sec of state, which is hardly a staff position. it is a cabinet position, 4th in succession to the presidency, which could be used to manufacture more feigned outrage, except that powell is inconveniently the left's favourite anti-bush pawn. are you not disturbed that the left wanted to hang scooter for what they (incorrectly) believed was his role & what he knew, yet are now mum to know it was the enemy-of-their-enemy? seems all too obvious now the hysterical left isn't on the side of truth on this topic, as they are now shown for all to see what so many of us have known along: they are peddlers in patter
please don't be alarmed if you're not considered for appointment to the position of special prosecutor
sorry, explain "indictment" to me again, & as it relates to the 14th amendment (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment14/03.html#1). as it stands now, he's not been convicted, nor has he plead out.


jesus, you have resurrected.

[$tinkle]

jesus, you have resurrected.it's n8's fault

also, didja hear? Karl Rove Won't Be Frog-Marched Across White House Lawn (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,212317,00.html)

[Silver]

seems all too obvious now the hysterical left isn't on the side of truth on this topic, as they are now shown for all to see what so many of us have known along: they are peddlers in patter


How's that Iraq thing working out?

Hell of a job, Stinkly...

[$tinkle]

How's that Iraq thing working out? nothing to see there...move along...

[ohio]

it's n8's fault

also, didja hear? Karl Rove Won't Be Frog-Marched Across White House Lawn (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,212317,00.html)

Did you read that editorial before you linked it?

Blame the victim much?

"He should have known that bringing to light a legitimate gripe against the administration would cause them to dig through his files and look for a way to punish him, therefore it is Wilson's own fault that Plame was outed."

[RenegadeRick]

Hey, its nice to have someone who can actually put together an entire paragraph to debate with. Let's Roll!

no, powell was the sec of state, which is hardly a staff position. it is a cabinet position, 4th in succession to the presidency...
When I used the word staff, I was using it in a generic sense, not a specific one. Anyone in the succession line to the presidency is a staff member by that definition. And regardless of the definition, there is no argument to the fact that Powell was certainly close enough to the Whitehouse to be in a position to share the truth.

are you not disturbed that the left wanted to hang scooter for what they (incorrectly) believed was his role & what he knew, yet are now mum to know it was the enemy-of-their-enemy? seems all too obvious now the hysterical left isn't on the side of truth on this topic, as they are now shown for all to see what so many of us have known along: they are peddlers in patter
hmmm. I don't consider myself left or right. I like to think of myself as an independent. I am indeed disturbed by the quiet on this matter.


please don't be alarmed if you're not considered for appointment to the position of special prosecutor
I know that the law on this matter had to do with deliberately exposing clasified information (do you have link to the details? It has been a while for me.). Intent played a big part as I recall as well. Anyhow, IANAL and I merely expressed the opinion that I thought it was just as bad to confirm the identity of an undercover agent as it is to reveal that identity in the first place. But that is just my opinion.


sorry, explain "indictment" to me again, & as it relates to the 14th amendment (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment14/03.html#1). as it stands now, he's not been convicted, nor has he plead out.

The 14th amendment (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html) states (in part):

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


But as an employee, Scooter was not deprived of anything by the state, but rather, he resigned (http://hughesforamerica.typepad.com/hughes_for_america/2005/10/why_wasnt_libby.html) from his employment.

So in fact, the indictment (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/libby_indictment_28102005.pdf) doesn't really have anything to do with his job. It does not mean that he:

did knowingly and corruptly endeavor to influence, obstruct and impede the due administration of justice, namely proceedings before Grand Jury 03-3, by misleading and deceiving the grand jury as to when, and the manner and means by which, LIBBY acquired and subsequently disclosed to the media information concerning the employment of Valerie Wilson by the CIA.

but rather that he has been charged with doing so.

[$tinkle]

and now matt drudge reporting:NOVAK: ARMITAGE DID NOT TELL ALL
Wed Sep 13 2006 08:37:07 ET

"When Richard Armitage finally acknowledged last week he was my source three years ago in revealing Valerie Plame Wilson as a CIA employee, the former deputy secretary of state's interviews obscured what he really did," Bob Novak claims in a column set for Thursday release.

Novak, attempting to set the record straight, writes: "First, Armitage did not, as he now indicates, merely pass on something he had heard and that he 'thought' might be so. Rather, he identified to me the CIA division where Mrs. Wilson worked, and said flatly that she recommended the mission to Niger by her husband, former Amb. Joseph Wilson. Second, Armitage did not slip me this information as idle chitchat, as he now suggests. He made clear he considered it especially suited for my column."

Novak slams Armitage for holding back all this time.

Armitage's silence for "two and one-half years caused intense pain for his colleagues in government and enabled partisan Democrats in Congress to falsely accuse Rove of being my primary source," Novak explains.

"When Armitage now says he was mute because of special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's request, that does not explain his silent three months between his claimed first realization that he was the source and Fitzgerald's appointment on Dec. 30. Armitage's tardy self-disclosure is tainted because it is deceptive."

Developing...this whole issue needs a proper viking funeral

[N8]

and now matt drudge reporting:this whole issue needs a proper viking funeral

The Last Remake of Beau Geste style vinking funeral..???



Beau Geste (age 12): A Viking funeral...Digby, will you set fire to me and bury me at sea?
Digby Geste (age 12): Well, alright...but not until you're dead.