VPX quality? (Intense quality going downhill)

[PoserNewbie]

My buddy and I just received our frames. We heard about the allignment issues that some people had on their frames so we checked it and the frames appear to be ok. However, when we put in our seatposts, the seatpost on my buddy's frame could not go all the way in, while the seatpost on mine goes all the way in. My question is, are the VPX's suppose to have a straight seat tube? It was under the assumption that these frame has a full length seatube (one of the main reason why I went with this frame). He called Intense and the guys at Intense told him that it's only suppose to go in for about 6". I thought that was a ****ty answer and it was just their way of trying to avoid warranty work. I'm happy with my frame but at the same time concern because of Intense's attitude and poor QC on their frames.

[Inclag]

I bought a used M1 here a year and a half ago, and although I love the geometry (could have a steeper headtube IMHO), I will never ride another Intense again.

The bike just doesn't feel solid and the frame alignment is downright pathetic.

[S.K.C.]

I was gonna get an M3 at the beginning of this season, but opted for a Demo 8 mainly because:

1. They are struggling a bit to fill orders.
2. Their production is pretty much stretched to the limit, and from what I understand, most of the fabrication is done by hand...

With things like that, you might wind up with a few frames that are a bit off - there used to be issues with the M3's monoque getting slightly out of alignment during fab. - but that was sorted out after proto testing was completed...

[kidwoo]

Ream it further with a flapper bit. Any decent bike shop should have one if you don't.

This happens with a lot of frames, not just intense.

[Dogboy]

Ream it further with a flapper bit. Any decent bike shop should have one if you don't.

This happens with a lot of frames, not just intense.
Nope. What the original poster is referring to is not a seat tube that just needs to be cleaned up a bit. It's a freeride frame with a straight seat tube that is only reamed 6" deep. That gives you roughly 2" of adjustment on most seatposts. Ridiculous. There is a lot of material in there that has to come out. My friends VPX took a lot of work to get it properly reamed.

[PoserNewbie]

Exactly, the last thing you want to do on a $2k frame is to do your own finishing/modification on the tubing/frame.

[LOOnatic]

Nope. What the original poster is referring to is not a seat tube that just needs to be cleaned up a bit. It's a freeride frame with a straight seat tube that is only reamed 6" deep. That gives you roughly 2" of adjustment on most seatposts. Ridiculous. There is a lot of material in there that has to come out. My friends VPX took a lot of work to get it properly reamed.


You guys were at Pisgah for the monkeyfest right?
Did your friend solve the shock spacer issue that i pointed out?

[sanjuro]

Exactly, the last thing you want to do on a $2k frame is to do your own finishing/modification on the tubing/frame.

Not true at all. Some frames just require facing...

[PoserNewbie]

You're right. However, facing the HT and BB shell is one thing but I think reaming the seattube is a bit much. Anyway, apparently this is not the first one as another guy has the same issue with his frame so I guess you do need to make some modification/cleaning on the frame.

[sanjuro]

I will give you it is an indicator of poor QC. However, as a person with road experience, facing is a service most road framebuilders focus on, where mtn builders tend to focus on design.

[kidwoo]

Nope. What the original poster is referring to is not a seat tube that just needs to be cleaned up a bit. It's a freeride frame with a straight seat tube that is only reamed 6" deep. That gives you roughly 2" of adjustment on most seatposts. Ridiculous. There is a lot of material in there that has to come out. My friends VPX took a lot of work to get it properly reamed.

So ream it. I hit every frame I ride with a flapper pretty heavily anyway. I've also gotten some extra range out of just the flapper too.

But then again....that's intense for ya.

[speedster]

Intense has always had QC issues. When you buy one of their frames...don't expect it to be perfect. IMHO I think that is very bad, especially when you spend that much on a frame. They are well designed bikes, but the manufacturing needs to be looked at closely. If you like to have an intense, by all means spend the money, they are cool bikes, just don't expect it to be as well built as other companies.

[ILikeFood]

My buddy and I just received our frames. We heard about the allignment issues that some people had on their frames so we checked it and the frames appear to be ok. However, when we put in our seatposts, the seatpost on my buddy's frame could not go all the way in, while the seatpost on mine goes all the way in. My question is, are the VPX's suppose to have a straight seat tube? It was under the assumption that these frame has a full length seatube (one of the main reason why I went with this frame). He called Intense and the guys at Intense told him that it's only suppose to go in for about 6". I thought that was a ****ty answer and it was just their way of trying to avoid warranty work. I'm happy with my frame but at the same time concern because of Intense's attitude and poor QC on their frames.

Did you ever think that your seatpost is out of spec? I have a Thompson and it does *not* go all the way in.

-f00d

[bballe336]

the intense bikes are gennerally pretty nice bikes but they all have issues. none of the m1's had straight rear ends.

[ILikeFood]

what frame do you have? was the post new? does it go fully into other frames? Sounds like your seat tube has a tack (to prevent lowering) or you bent your thomson.

Brand new medium VPX, brand new Thompson. I just thought it was funny that the thread is about Intense Quality Control going to **** when:

- Intense said it should only go in 6 inches
- One post did go in 6 inches
- The other did not...ergo the frame must be totally out of tolerance. (not the seatpost, er...)

-f00d

[Bicyclist]

I can see low end frames having these issues, but for such an expensive frame, that's absurd.

[dhtahoe]

I love the "I just spent this much and should NEVER need to touch it". Go build a custom motorcycle for $30,000 and see how much hand fitting must be done. Yet my customers NEVER say "I spent $2000 on a Yaffy tank and they did drill the mounting hole". This kind of thing is common with ALL makers. Remember these are built one at a time and things get missed. Even the best QC won't see that far down inside the frame unles they use a bore gauge or a scope. Neither a standard bike industry equipment. Sometimes S**t happens!!!

[Bicyclist]

But alignment issues? I don't think that should be common. I know he hasn't had any problems with that, but apparently some people have.

[PoserNewbie]

Brand new medium VPX, brand new Thompson. I just thought it was funny that the thread is about Intense Quality Control going to **** when:

- Intense said it should only go in 6 inches
- One post did go in 6 inches
- The other did not...ergo the frame must be totally out of tolerance. (not the seatpost, er...)

-f00d

Same here. 2 brand new VPX's and 2 brand new Thomson. 1 went in all the way and the other only 6". I can understand that it can happen in any type of production but for this to happen in several frames (not to mention the allignment issues) is a bit dissapointing. I guess you just cant expect perfection these days.

[dropmachine.com]

I love the "I just spent this much and should NEVER need to touch it". Go build a custom motorcycle for $30,000 and see how much hand fitting must be done. Yet my customers NEVER say "I spent $2000 on a Yaffy tank and they did drill the mounting hole". This kind of thing is common with ALL makers. Remember these are built one at a time and things get missed. Even the best QC won't see that far down inside the frame unles they use a bore gauge or a scope. Neither a standard bike industry equipment. Sometimes S**t happens!!!

Cool, you go ride the #30,000 bike with tons of problems, I'll run the HOnda that rocks right out of the box.

Thats pretty sad about Intense. You pay that much for a frame, it should be bloody well perfect. I can see problems mounting a chainguide, or MAYBE bb threads a little crusty, but the seatpost being burred? Sorry man, thats just lazy.

[speedster]

I love the "I just spent this much and should NEVER need to touch it". Go build a custom motorcycle for $30,000 and see how much hand fitting must be done. Yet my customers NEVER say "I spent $2000 on a Yaffy tank and they did drill the mounting hole". This kind of thing is common with ALL makers. Remember these are built one at a time and things get missed. Even the best QC won't see that far down inside the frame unles they use a bore gauge or a scope. Neither a standard bike industry equipment. Sometimes S**t happens!!!

That's retarded and a custom motorcycle is not the same as a production bike. You don't have the same problems with a production Harley that you do with a custom soft tail. If this guy was getting a true custom dh bike than yes, I would say there will be things that need to be worked on to get the frame prepped. But when you buy a completed frame from a company it should be ready to build sans the facing of the headset and bb. Some frame manufactures take the extra step and do the facing themselves, it's a nice touch for a truely completed frame. But with Intense it's always something...an off center rear end, a seat post that isn't straight, alignment is wack etc. The have poor QC, simple. S**t shouldn't happen this often with such an expensive frame. By now people should know that when you buy an intense be prepared because you might actually be getting a wack frame.

[bikenweed]

So did you get the seat tube on the frame cleaned up with some light tooling, or are you just going to rock it with the minimal isertion it allowed? What was the problem, some spot tack or somethig, or a bent tube? Did the post that wouldn't fit in the frame more than 6" slide all the way in on the other frame? I could't tell from your posts if you actually checked the post to see if it was straight.

[PoserNewbie]

Mine works just fine (post all the way in) its the other one that has the problem. We didnt try to swap the post to see if the post is bent. We'll try.

[dhtahoe]

But alignment issues? I don't think that should be common. I know he hasn't had any problems with that, but apparently some people have.

Hell yes. I weld and metal fabricate FOR A LIVING. An Intense m-1 has 125 inches of weld on the main frame. I don't care who you are or how good the jig is. You weld 125 inches of .065 aluminum and it WILL warp a little. The alignment issuses on an M-1 are in the main frame, but you see it in the rear end because the pivots will be off by 2mm. By the time that 2mm get to the rear axel it's more like 10-20mm. BTW an intense mainframe is way thinner than.065.

[dhtahoe]

Cool, you go ride the #30,000 bike with tons of problems, I'll run the HOnda that rocks right out of the box.

Thats pretty sad about Intense. You pay that much for a frame, it should be bloody well perfect. I can see problems mounting a chainguide, or MAYBE bb threads a little crusty, but the seatpost being burred? Sorry man, thats just lazy.

I Just build them. I would NEVER spend 30k on somthing with a Harley motor. Rather have a full race preped Duc for that.

[dhtahoe]

That's retarded and a custom motorcycle is not the same as a production bike. You don't have the same problems with a production Harley that you do with a custom soft tail. If this guy was getting a true custom dh bike than yes, I would say there will be things that need to be worked on to get the frame prepped. But when you buy a completed frame from a company it should be ready to build sans the facing of the headset and bb. Some frame manufactures take the extra step and do the facing themselves, it's a nice touch for a truely completed frame. But with Intense it's always something...an off center rear end, a seat post that isn't straight, alignment is wack etc. The have poor QC, simple. S**t shouldn't happen this often with such an expensive frame. By now people should know that when you buy an intense be prepared because you might actually be getting a wack frame.

No a production bike is a built bike. If you build it up from a frame it's a custom. I was using this as an example. I have build a lot of "custom" DH bikes in the past 10 years. To be honest with you it is RARE that on just bolts right together. Why do you think bike shop have all those cool tools on the wall... for looks. In "production" the more you make the more flaws get thru. This is not an Intense thing it's a fabrication thing. This is why the aviation industry is so expensive. After I do the work I sign it off, then an inspector checks it and signs it off, then he has someone from the Federal Aviation Administration inspect it. Then it can leave the hanger. Without the motor a custom harley build just about the same as a DH bike. When I got my V-10 I spent two day machineing things to my likeing. Faced the brake mounts, headtube, and BB. Honed the seat tube too. Why because then I know it's right. You guy spend 2k on a bike but won't pay a shop $20 to face your headtube. I don't get it, but I work in a different industry. I apply my knowledge of aircraft/metal fabrication on my bikes. Safty wire, dye mark bolts to visually check to see if bolts are loose. In ten year of racing I have not had a DNF from a mechanical ever(not including flats). I'm telling you it pays off being that anal. Ask stick... IMO all personal things aside he has always been very good at what he does, and if you asked he could say the same thing. Very few bikes come out of the box and just go together.

[profro]

Some frame manufactures take the extra step and do the facing themselves, it's a nice touch for a truely completed frame.


Yeti does this. :dancing:

[dhtahoe]

One of the reason you pay more for one I'm sure. We keep wanting better cheaper bikes, but expect the same quality. Ummmmmm No!!!

[DHS]

thats why i own a Brooklyn Machine works. all the kinks have been worked out. sure you need a lot of their products to keep it running. but it runs swell.

[sanjuro]

Hell yes. I weld and metal fabricate FOR A LIVING. An Intense m-1 has 125 inches of weld on the main frame. I don't care who you are or how good the jig is. You weld 125 inches of .065 aluminum and it WILL warp a little. The alignment issuses on an M-1 are in the main frame, but you see it in the rear end because the pivots will be off by 2mm. By the time that 2mm get to the rear axel it's more like 10-20mm. BTW an intense mainframe is way thinner than.065.

QC is the issue here. Would you send a product out that was 10mm off? There might be no perfect welds, but when do you hold back an imperfect frame?

[sanjuro]

No a production bike is a built bike. If you build it up from a frame it's a custom. I was using this as an example. I have build a lot of "custom" DH bikes in the past 10 years. To be honest with you it is RARE that on just bolts right together. Why do you think bike shop have all those cool tools on the wall... for looks. In "production" the more you make the more flaws get thru. This is not an Intense thing it's a fabrication thing. This is why the aviation industry is so expensive. After I do the work I sign it off, then an inspector checks it and signs it off, then he has someone from the Federal Aviation Administration inspect it. Then it can leave the hanger. Without the motor a custom harley build just about the same as a DH bike. When I got my V-10 I spent two day machineing things to my likeing. Faced the brake mounts, headtube, and BB. Honed the seat tube too. Why because then I know it's right. You guy spend 2k on a bike but won't pay a shop $20 to face your headtube. I don't get it, but I work in a different industry. I apply my knowledge of aircraft/metal fabrication on my bikes. Safty wire, dye mark bolts to visually check to see if bolts are loose. In ten year of racing I have not had a DNF from a mechanical ever(not including flats). I'm telling you it pays off being that anal. Ask stick... IMO all personal things aside he has always been very good at what he does, and if you asked he could say the same thing. Very few bikes come out of the box and just go together.

I would have to say facing and reaming is normal frame prep.

There has been some discussion about how these skills are a lost art. Back in the day, road frames were rarely prepped, and this was a normal task. Today, there are more production bikes, and unless something is dramatically wrong, very few shops would remove factory installed parts to face threads.

Frankly, I don't much about building custom DH bikes, but it does sound similar to road prep. Many roadies who receive only framesets often require facing done.

However, alignment issues should never be part of a new bike prep. That has to go back to the manufacturer.

[meatboot]

You guys were at Pisgah for the monkeyfest right?
Did your friend solve the shock spacer issue that i pointed out?

The orange VPX belonged to my retarded brother SJ, who cannot operate a computer. He's running a spacer as a bandaid on the issue; his alignment isn't nearly as bad as the Norsemens'.

I got my own Uzzi, to which Dogboy is referring. As he mentioned, the seat tube issue is not something you can solve with a flex hone. It requires a reamer and a couple of hours.

I brought this issue to attention of Intense several weeks ago. I found the "it's only supposed to go in 6 inches" answer unsatisfactory. First, Intense advertises the bike as having a quote unquote "uninterrupted seat tube." See http://www.intensecycles.com/ and click on the pull down menu by the shock on the VPX page. Second, Nick told me to my face that I would be able to sink the seat tube to the BB if I wanted to, when I asked him at Interbike. His solution to the issue was to suggest running a 30.8 seat post, which tells you how seriously they were taking the issue -- not very (at least at that time).

I've been around long enough to know that's there's always a risk that goes along with buying the very first run of any bike. And I don't expect perfection. I am disappointed, since it wouldn't be that hard for them to run the reamer a little deeper when finishing the frame. Hopefully, that's what they're doing now (hence the two different outcomes in the original post). I think it was probably just a miscommunication rather than a true QC issue. I'm not an engineer, not even an "e" one, but I can definitely envision a scenario in which their reamer is set up to ream only 6" down, since that's a far as they need to go on their interrupted seat tube bikes.

That being said, the extra work was definitely worth it. The bike is simply awesome, both in terms of handling and pedaling, where it surpasses similar bikes by a long way (IMHO, of course).

[PoserNewbie]

First, Intense advertises the bike as having a quote unquote "uninterrupted seat tube." See http://www.intensecycles.com/ and click on the pull down menu by the shock on the VPX page.

I can understand if there are some shortcomings on the workmanship. It happens in every industry. HOWEVER, what really piss you off is when they try to bull**** their way out of it by giving quick unintelligent answer. Lucky my friend was pretty nice on the phone. If it was me, I would've exploded and accused them of false advertising.

[frorider]

OF all the "custom" bikes I've built, the intense was the hardest to build, mostly due to the amount of extra effort I had to put into it.

Yeti's come prepped: HT faced, seattube de-burred, BB chased, and straight

Turner: Same

Giant (from frame): Needed to face HT, ran threads to be safe, they were fine

Santa Cruz: Reamed and faced, but all was ok

Intense: Burr in seat tube, BB threads UGLY, HT I reamed and faced, it was rough on the inside, and paint coated on the ends. Add to the fact that the 3 intenses I have built were all crooked (and not by small amounts), and I'll say their QC sucks. We even had one that broke a shock in half because it was crooked (we checked the alignment). We had one that came with ISCG tabs that were off by 45*, and evertually broke off while Chomps was riding UP a hill. It looked like they were tack welds.

There is no excuse to have a "custom" bike come that out of whack. Nobody else has QC issues that bad, why does intense?

Two shops I deal with carry Intense, as well as other brands (Turner etc.) and as I've gotten to know the shop mechanics better they start to be more direct/honest....bottom line is that they don't think highly of Intense's quality control compared to other $2k frame brands (even $1200 frame brands like Yeti).

dhtahoe i usually agree with your posts but on this topic i have to disagree. a production frame at that price should come reasonably straight and prepped. the fact that i never hear this complaint about Turner, for example, indicates that this level of quality can be accomplished.

[partsbara]

We even had one that broke a shock in half because it was crooked (we checked the alignment).

bingo... i broke a shock on my m1... blew 4 others before i got sick of shelling out $$$ for rebuilds... great bike tho'... :... seriously, i loved it but i couldn t afford to keep it...

[The Misfit]

I'm new to the sport but after reading this whole thread I would have to say I just wrote that whole company off as a P.O.S. if I spent that much I would expect to be able to open the box and start building, not complete the final stages of frame preparation. If I were those guys I would have already sent those frames back and bought something else, that’s a no-brainer. I would prefer to get a true quality product and then do the personalized tweaks as mentioned in this thread to make it "the way I like it". I realize that the more you make, the more flawed product can get to the customer as stated here, that’s why I save the box. If I had a frame that was 20mm out of alignment due to the heat of welding I would laugh and drop it back in the box, shoddy workmanship due to poor welding skills and lack of attention to detail.

[frorider]

the only yeti's in the $1200 range are the ASX and the 5.75. The 4X, DH-9, and now the 303 are all in the $2500+ range.

-stone

yes, i think we all know that. but thanks for sharing. :nuts: I was making the point that many affordable frames -- e.g. the cheaper Yeti or Santa Cruz frames -- have decent quality control.

[sanjuro]

First thing, is the Uzzi does have an uninterrupted seat tube, as opposed to their old "seat mast" design. It doesn't say how far down you can stick your post, though...

Frame prep issues are directly related to QC, but not necessarily means you are buying a lemon.

I would expect any production frame will have decent QC, simply because those Taiwanese robots do a good job. Keep in mind that companies like Turner and Santa Cruz use Sapa in Portland, a major alu manufacturer. Intense is truly a small builder, who designs and welds their own frames.

If the performance and the reliablity are good, then a little frame prep is not a big deal on a great frame. Again, the only issue should be alignment, and if that is bad, then you got a real problem.

[trailhacker]

... quote unquote "uninterrupted seat tube." ...
Using the quotation marks usually negates the need mention them verbally.....
:)

[BUCKET]

There is an easy solution to this problem.......Buy a FOES product! Problem solved.

[Inclag]

There is an easy solution to this problem.......Buy a FOES product! Problem solved.

The one bike louder than an M1 or M3 :evil:

[Jeremy R]

The one bike louder than an M1 or M3 :evil:

Yeah, but it is not loud for long.


















It gets real quiet after the headtube snaps off. :devil:

[ChrisKring]

Solution: use a 27.2mm post and a production seatpost shim. They are avalable in just about every size. Then the shim will have a tight fit in the top 4" and the post will clear the weld burn through that your having the problem with.

My VP Free has no issues with full seat post range of adjustment. My V10 mono frame even had nearly perfectly faced head tube and bottom brackets.

The QC checking method is a go/no-go pin. This would be a go pin at MMC (largest seatpost size tolerance). It's actually pretty simple. I design car parts and every car OEM would have me living in there plant if we were shipping in parts out of spec that didn't go together.

[Kornphlake]

Solution: use a 27.2mm post and a production seatpost shim. They are avalable in just about every size. Then the shim will have a tight fit in the top 4" and the post will clear the weld burn through that your having the problem with.

My VP Free has no issues with full seat post range of adjustment. My V10 mono frame even had nearly perfectly faced head tube and bottom brackets.

The QC checking method is a go/no-go pin. This would be a go pin at MMC (largest seatpost size tolerance). It's actually pretty simple. I design car parts and every car OEM would have me living in there plant if we were shipping in parts out of spec that didn't go together.

I see 3 different issues that have been brought up here, 1 is straightforward, 2 are not.

First of all the issue of seat post insertion, that is a workmanship issue, QC could have caught it or missed it and I'd just write it off as an oops. Intense claiming that the frame was designed that way is BS, the seat tube is designed to accept a standard sized seat post, it has an industry standard diameter and tolerance. If they got a glob of weld spatter in the seat post and didn't clean it out it's their problem.

The second issue is frame prep, facing/reaming the head tube and facing/chasing the BB is something that the manufacturer "should" be equipped to do, however many of the big name brand bikes, especially the low budget models don't do a spectacular job of doing this type of work. Holding manufacturers more or less responsible for frame prep depending on the size of the price tag is reasonable, but it's not something that a manufacturer should be obligated to do if the majority of shops already expect to have to ream, face and chase every frame.

Finally frame alignment, while I agree an expensive frame should be straight I'm not the engineer who designed the M1. If I were I'd probabally design it differently so that it could be assembled without warping, however Intense designed what they designed and set certain tolerances that were reasonable. It's a common QC practice to build some quantity of product, test them all and set a tolerance range from the results such that the highest and lowest 2 or 3 parts are rejected. Unfortunately for many parts the process controlls the tolerance rather than the other way around. This is especially true for criteria that the customer may not be able to judge himself, either because the customer won't have a standard to compare against (for example how shiny something is) or because the tools to make appropriate measurements aren't household tools (for example a bore gage.) Intense might spec really loose tolerances because it's the best their process can handle and they've realized that the customer demands that particular process if they want to sell bikes.

[dexter]

i will never rock an intense. buddy got one 5 years ago when i got my first dh9 from rpm. it came fully prepped from the factory. his m1 came crooked and needed to be fully faced. after 4 hours of work it was better but i had been out riding. he then went and bought a tazer and has killed 4+ swing arms and 2 main frames and hes a smooth rider. his m1 has had more problems than a sexually molested child. all of my yeti's (4 dh9's, prototype dj, production dj, 575, kokopelli, 4x and arc) have all came ready to rck out of the box same with my sinister r9,dna and splinter mxs all perfect out of the box

[kidwoo]

Solution: use a 27.2mm post and a production seatpost shim. They are avalable in just about every size. Then the shim will have a tight fit in the top 4" and the post will clear the weld burn through that your having the problem with.
.

That's a really REALLY good idea. :thumb:

I guess you just have to check to make sure the smaller post goes past whatever the restriction is.

[meatboot]

First thing, is the Uzzi does have an uninterrupted seat tube, as opposed to their old "seat mast" design. It doesn't say how far down you can stick your post, though...


Uh, I have a law degree and even don't think I could maintain that position with a straight face. I guess you didn't bother to read the rest of my post either.

Using the quotation marks usually negates the need mention them verbally.....
:)

The redundancy was ironical -- as is that deliberate misspelling. And, just for your reference, there are only three periods in an ellipse, with an additional period when you end a sentence with them. Moreover, unless your computer is way different than mine I didn't mention anything verbally. :nuts: :)

Solution: use a 27.2mm post and a production seatpost shim. They are avalable in just about every size. Then the shim will have a tight fit in the top 4" and the post will clear the weld burn through that your having the problem with.


That's one work around. I'm not usually of the "it cost XXXX dollars, it should be perfect" school, but I don't think I should have to use a quick fix like that on a frame this expensive. Plus, I already had a 31.6 post. Also, I don't think it's a burn through problem: looking down the tube you can see a hard line in the area where the post stops sinking, which leads me to believe they simply didn't ream far enough down. My guess is that they use a method like your go/no go pin, but the pin isn't 330mm long.


My VP Free has no issues with full seat post range of adjustment.


Yeah, except for that kink by the BB that prevents you (or me at least) from getting fully seatpost extension.


My V10 mono frame even had nearly perfectly faced head tube and bottom brackets.


Just for the record, the HT and BB shell on my bike were factory faced. That didn't stop me for doing it again myself though, nor would it with any manufacturer's bike. Unprepped bikes don't really bother me (road frames in the same quality/price range routinely come completely unfaced or chased, with paint all over the place). Nor does small alignment problems. Intense's QC might not be the best, but it certainly isn't the worst in the industry. I could tell you horror stories, like $7000 frames (Ti tandem with S&S couplers) that were off by inches. And don't get me started on Ellsworth (although I know that's whole 'nother ball of wax). My Uzzi is straight (I measured) and my M1 was perfect. That being said, the alignment issue discussed previously was unacceptable, but it got resolved didn't it?

Not trying to pick on you Chris, just using your post to frame some of the issues.

[Dusty Bottoms]

Thank GOD I bought a Santa Cruz. They ream down the seattube a full 10.5 inches on XL frames. With a 4" minimum seatpost insertion, I could NOT IMAGINE only dropping my seat 2 inches and reaching the bottom on that Intense frame.

Im SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO happy I didn't wait for that frame.

[sanjuro]

Uh, I have a law degree and even don't think I could maintain that position with a straight face. I guess you didn't bother to read the rest of my post either.


Well, I have now. I see promises were made but not kept, but since you were so nice about it, good luck with your POS. Should have bought a [insert bike here].

[trailhacker]

.....blah.......blah........ellipse.............bl ah.........
Touche' - but you and my old english teach can both kiss me arse!

Back on topic, maybe this was metioned and/or already covered, but is it possible that the frame that only allows the seatpost X amount down is the good frame and the frame that allows full insertion (dirty, dirty :eek: ) is actually the bad frame? The CS rep from intense told you that they are designed to only go down X" right?

Nothing for nothing, but I've owned 2 M1's ('00 and '03) and had none of the previuosly mentioned problems. I did have almost every part on the first frame warrantied except he seatstay and link, but they did warranty them and I got 3 years out of that frame and my friends wife is still riding it today. And the '03 is my race bike this year. The warranty's weren't horror stories either, just age realted stress I feel. There were no catastrophic failures, just found cracks developing on the parts.
Not trying to defend them, but our whole team of 6-8 riders in 2000 all rode M1's and they had similar experiences. Same thing with the few other Intense frames I have been around.
Not doubting what anybody else is saying, but when people say things like I'll never ride brand X because I've heard this, to each there own I guess?

[meatboot]

Well, I have now. I see promises were made but not kept, but since you were so nice about it, good luck with your POS. Should have bought a [insert bike here].

Sorry I hurt your feelings, but I wasn't trying to be mean.

It bears repeating that other the seat tube issue I am extremely happy with the bike. I'm more upset about the way the situation was handled than with a problem that can be solved with a $15 shim or $35 ream job. I did a lot of bike testing before throwing down my money and the Uzzi has not let me down in terms of performance.

[meatboot]

Back on topic, maybe this was metioned and/or already covered, but is it possible that the frame that only allows the seatpost X amount down is the good frame and the frame that allows full insertion (dirty, dirty :eek: ) is actually the bad frame? The CS rep from intense told you that they are designed to only go down X" right?


I asked Nick before reaming it and he said "there is no structural reason that the seat tube isn't fully reamed" and followed with the comment that he didn't see why you would need more seat post adjustment. I was a little flabbergasted, to say the least.

My prior experience with Intense jibs with yours. In 3 seasons of racing, I had one issue, with the ISCG tabs (which I agree were a little shady, just being tacked on). I told them I had a race and they sent me a new front end post haste, rather than having me send it in for repair.

[ILikeFood]

Well my seatpost issue has since been resolved...and my BB and headtube were both ready to roll out of the box. My alignment seems solid, and I'm happy as hell with the bike.

-f00d

[ChrisKring]

Not trying to pick on you Chris, just using your post to frame some of the issues.

No problem. I totally agree with you though that there is no reason that a frame should not be prep'd from the factory. For a large frame, I would set up the the reamer to allow for a 410mm seatpost to be fully lowered. That would allow for 0-12" of exposed seat post.

The issue that I have with the factory not preping frames is that most bike shops have crappy cutting tools. They are worn out and never get sharpened. Heck, there are only a couple of shops around here that even have a head tube reamer/facer or a bottom bracket tap. It's just hard for most of them to justify $2,000+ in tools to prep 3-4 frames a year when most people buy completely assembled bikes.

On the topic of tolerancing and design. The best way to design a product is to design with your "capable" processing tolerance accounted for in the design though tolerance stack studies. A seat tube / seat post is easy. There are 4 components:
1) post diameter
2) post straightness
3) seat tube diameter (post reaming if neccessary)
4) seat tube straightness (post reaming if neccessary)

You really don't want to design with processing requirements (tolerances) outside of the capablity of the process. That leads to sorting, scraping and rework. Therefore, expensive.

And my work around is courtesy of Giant. They do that on the AC frames to avoid having to ream the seat tube. Pull out the shim and you will see what I am refering to. Nasty weld burn through and tube warp. That said, they designed to meet a cost and quality target that did not need secondary rework processes such as reaming. That said, a larger diameter seat post is significantly stronger while maintaining the same mass.

"Light, strong, inexpensive, pick 2" Keith Bontrager 1980 something

[BadFastard]

I hate to hear that there are a few issues with your frame, but It makes me sick how a bunch of people here jump the band wagon and go and slash a company not even knowing what they're talking about.
I have owned 4 intenses now. None had any issue whatsoever. straight as an arrow and no haircrack at all. I keep buying them because I feel confident about the high standard of quality. I know my next bike will be an intense again.
I know of about 20 other intenses (friends and riders I met) Only one guy broke an M1 chainstay, but then again he weighs 140 kilos (+/- 290 pounds)
Not a single model was misaligned.

Before intense was available here in belgium, Foes was the only true DH bike available. At some point there were 10 frames running.
ALL of them broke. that's a 100% to you sir. Mine broke 3 times. And we were not nearly riding as hard as we do now.
At some point, mine came back from a warranty job (swingarm broke for the 2nd time) it was 4 CM misaligned. Thats about 1.75", or roughly the size of an xc racing tire.

I met a guy with an Orange, broken on 7 different places, without having it crashed.

One other mate of mine had a GT DHi. He broke it 3 times in 3 weeks. Every single rider on GT DHi broke his frame multiple times. My mate replaced it with an M1 3 years ago and has never had any problem anymore.

Before we all sing praise on Giant and Santa cruz: are we not forgetting the dreadful play in the rear end due to bolts loosening and bad fitting bearings?
I've seen a SC breaking the head tube clear off.

A mate is now running his Third replacement Specialized frame. Every half year he's through with a frame.
I've seen broken Kona's, Nicolai's.... I can go on till the cows come home.

What's my point? Problems happen, but stop slagging one specific make. We're sportsmen here, so let's play a fair game and admit it happens everywhere.

[syadasti]

Way to pour out the cognitive dissonance there BadFastard and ignore the reality of actual Intense owner with unacceptable problems.

You see in the real world when companies do a **** job they go out of business. Like GM and US automotive industry in general. Consumers aren't dumb. Intense better clean up their act or go the way of the Dodo (for GM it was too little, too late)...

[BUCKET]

Yeah, but it is not loud for long.

It gets real quiet after the headtube snaps off. :devil:


Interesting :think:.... I have never heard of that happening before. I call BULL****!!!!!!!!!

As far as them being loud, the earlier generations did have some piviot noise, but the newer ones seem to be a lot quiter. Besides, it's like loud pipes on a 2 stroker, they save lives. The loud bike is just letting the slower rider on a M3 know that a faster rider on a FOES is about to pass him or her.

[meatboot]

Interesting :think:.... I have never heard of that happening before. I call BULL****!!!!!!!!!


Check out the Chain Reaction series -- I think the third one.

Everything breaks.

In his defense, I think that was BadFastard's only point.

[BadFastard]

Way to pour out the cognitive dissonance there BadFastard and ignore the reality of actual Intense owner with unacceptable problems.

You see in the real world when companies do a **** job they go out of business. Like GM and US automotive industry in general. Consumers aren't dumb. Intense better clean up their act or go the way of the Dodo (for GM it was too little, too late)...
You're perfectly right but You missed my point.
I do recognize the issue that these guys have. I'm not saying they don', I'm saying that so many companies have (had) similar complaints. So let's cut the crap, and play a fair game. Sure intense has issues, so do Foes, specialized, GT, Kona, Santa Cruz, Giant, Cannondale, Iron Horse, Norco.... I can go on. Getting outta business is thus a threat to a lot of companies out there. Or is it? All but 1 foes I know have broken and still they're in business....

Let's just stick to the ideas to address this seat tube thingy here and stop the e-slashing.

[Fonzie18]

Mmmmmm, Intense
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/Fonse03/M31.jpg

I had no problems building mine. Seatpost went in all the way, Headset faced/reamed, BB was perfectly threaded/faced, and in smooth High speed situations the frame feels much more "aligned" than all my previous bikes. You guys can bitch all ya want, I'm gonna go ride my bike... :blah:

[sanjuro]

Sorry I hurt your feelings, but I wasn't trying to be mean.

It bears repeating that other the seat tube issue I am extremely happy with the bike. I'm more upset about the way the situation was handled than with a problem that can be solved with a $15 shim or $35 ream job. I did a lot of bike testing before throwing down my money and the Uzzi has not let me down in terms of performance.

Thats cool. I think this is a missed expectations, which is a customer service issue.

I did enjoy reading about the Giant tolerances and design post.

[Lejk]

I've just put my Intense Uzzi VPX toghter and honestly I cannot say that the frame I bought was that shady when it arrived. Compared with my old Bighit this was, as I expected just as fine. The only problem I found was that I hade gotten a 150mm drop-out intsead of the 135mm ordered..

Guess what, I got a new 135mm drop-out and I could keep the 150mm drop-out for free :love:

About the seat tube then.. yes I got to shorten it alot to get is as low as I would have liked... but I cannot see the big issue.. I would have cut it the same lenght any way :)

Warranty on the other hand.. I know alot of people having trouble with their Giant DH still.. and the guys at Gaint here in sweden are total assholes about it.. Specialized are pretty much the same around where I live, so perhaps Intense just are as the rest.. or?

[Spokompton]

All I got to say is this:

I used to put together WalMart bikes. If a crap company can produce a full bike that's straight and allows the seat to go in, and sell it for $80, then why can't a company who's selling $2000 "frames" deliver AT LEAST the same?

It comes down to making money. Intense isn't a charity organization. They want to make maximum money, bottom line! They lose a good amount of money with each frame that's way off if they through it in the trash. Easy solution? Don't through away any frames and deal (or lack there of) with them after the fact if the customer is smart enough to complain!!! Boom, they now make more money.

IF say 10% of thier frames are defective in some way, they could either dump it at the factory or sell it to people. By dumping it off the bat, they instantly lose money on materials and labor by 10%. What happens if they just let that 10% slip by and make it to the consumer? Maybe 50% of those consumers who got a 10% defect frame will notice it and want it fixed or replaced. Now Intense only has to "through away" 5% of thier frames as apposed to 10%, thus they make more money. Theymake even more money after that if they can deny warrenty claims even on brand new bikes!

I wouldn't be surprised if they actually sat down a calculated this and came to the same conclusion I did. Making money is making money!


Those crappy WalMart bikes? Well they produce those cheap and in large volume, so dumping a deffective frame isn't a big deal at all. Thus thier QC can dump them without much consequences on making money. I very rarely saw one that didn't take a seat post or was way too off to use. They are still crappy bikes though, but at least they give you what you pay for.

$2000 shouldn't pay for shoddy quality contol and more work on your part.


I'm sure Intense loves thier system, because if someone actually tries "FIXING" the problem themselves and messes up, they get to deny warranty!!! They make money off another sucker!!!



IMO, go with quality "NEW" small time bike comanies. They often cost less, are better quality, and are usually trying thier best to make a good impression on people. They are hungry to make you happy, period. Sure there's still crappy small times companies too, but you just need to research a little before hand.

One prime example of a new company doing EVERYTHING right, is Transition Bikes. THose guys are super top notch. You know they are a good company when you can call them up and one of the owners answers and is willing to chat with you for as long as it takes for them to instill confidence in buying one of thier frames. On top of that just about every frame they put out is made damn sure to be fully finished and top notch. They realize that having a happy customer raving about it to other bikers is good bussiness. Thier frames sell themselves from happy customers. Intense is the opposite, they rely on advertising to sucker people and don''t put any effort after the fact of making more money.

I know how business works. More often than not, making money is more important to them than making happy loyal customers. After all, it's the American way right? Just look at our auto industry, that explains it all! I could go on and on, but I'll end it there.

[AusRottenVirus]

I never realized intense had a QC issue. I have an M1 and have had no problems with it. the only troubles that i have run into is intense no longer makes hangers for them so i had to make one myself. The alignment seems to be spot on. You need to quit whining and go ride your bikes

[meatboot]

I'd have a hard time concentrating with this (http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2005/diaries/niki/?id=niki0501) parading around the shop floor.

[manhattanprjkt83]

I hate to hear that there are a few issues with your frame, but It makes me sick how a bunch of people here jump the band wagon and go and slash a company not even knowing what they're talking about.
I have owned 4 intenses now. None had any issue whatsoever. straight as an arrow and no haircrack at all. I keep buying them because I feel confident about the high standard of quality. I know my next bike will be an intense again.
I know of about 20 other intenses (friends and riders I met) Only one guy broke an M1 chainstay, but then again he weighs 140 kilos (+/- 290 pounds)
Not a single model was misaligned.

Before intense was available here in belgium, Foes was the only true DH bike available. At some point there were 10 frames running.
ALL of them broke. that's a 100% to you sir. Mine broke 3 times. And we were not nearly riding as hard as we do now.
At some point, mine came back from a warranty job (swingarm broke for the 2nd time) it was 4 CM misaligned. Thats about 1.75", or roughly the size of an xc racing tire.

I met a guy with an Orange, broken on 7 different places, without having it crashed.

One other mate of mine had a GT DHi. He broke it 3 times in 3 weeks. Every single rider on GT DHi broke his frame multiple times. My mate replaced it with an M1 3 years ago and has never had any problem anymore.

Before we all sing praise on Giant and Santa cruz: are we not forgetting the dreadful play in the rear end due to bolts loosening and bad fitting bearings?
I've seen a SC breaking the head tube clear off.

A mate is now running his Third replacement Specialized frame. Every half year he's through with a frame.
I've seen broken Kona's, Nicolai's.... I can go on till the cows come home.

What's my point? Problems happen, but stop slagging one specific make. We're sportsmen here, so let's play a fair game and admit it happens everywhere.


I think you and your boys need to ride a bit smoother, those numbers seem i a little crazy.

[meatboot]

There has been some discussion about how these skills are a lost art. Back in the day, road frames were rarely prepped, and this was a normal task . . .. Frankly, I don't much about building custom DH bikes, but it does sound similar to road prep. Many roadies who receive only framesets often require facing done.


Another possible explanation: Intense thinks they're an Old World road frame shop. :blah:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/diaries/niki/niki0501/jeff_intenseroad.jpg

[Franky]

haha this is great who'd a thought youd find a thread about displeased intense owners.
I get my uzzi vpx from my lbs and i bought it with 150mm dropouts by mistake . Worked out a swap through my shop and intense to get 135mm dropouts. Intense says no problem they are in stock , send the 150's back. I pay the extra to express them over there as im leaving for BC next friday figuring they are going to ship them standard ground back. my shop gets a call today from intense stating that no they arent in stock and oops they wont be ready for another week. Greeeeaaaatttttttt and on top of that they kindly mentioned that I can pay for the express shipping back since it was definitely not their fault they told me they had em and didnt. Great work intense! thumbs up and this will be the last intense item i own.

[partsbara]

haha this is great who'd a thought youd find a thread about displeased intense owners.
I get my uzzi vpx from my lbs and i bought it with 150mm dropouts by mistake . Worked out a swap through my shop and intense to get 135mm dropouts. Intense says no problem they are in stock , send the 150's back. I pay the extra to express them over there as im leaving for BC next friday figuring they are going to ship them standard ground back. my shop gets a call today from intense stating that no they arent in stock and oops they wont be ready for another week. Greeeeaaaatttttttt and on top of that they kindly mentioned that I can pay for the express shipping back since it was definitely not their fault they told me they had em and didnt. Great work intense! thumbs up and this will be the last intense item i own.

lol... sorry about your dilema... hope shiat works itself out...

i loved my m1, but i couldn t afford to keep it... 5 blown shocks, one inverted on itself :mumble: ...

tomac 204 (for how much longer is the ???)... - certified partsbara indestructible / big rich ???????