Creationism: God's gift to the ignorant

[Toshi]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-196-1619264,00.html

The creationists’ fondness for “gaps” in the fossil record is a metaphor for their love of gaps in knowledge generally. Gaps, by default, are filled by God. You don’t know how the nerve impulse works? Good! You don’t understand how memories are laid down in the brain? Excellent! Is photosynthesis a bafflingly complex process? Wonderful! Please don’t go to work on the problem, just give up, and appeal to God. Dear scientist, don’t work on your mysteries. Bring us your mysteries for we can use them. Don’t squander precious ignorance by researching it away. Ignorance is God’s gift to Kansas.
read the article. it is short. it doesn't contain overly long words.

[punkassean]

Nice link, good reading. I am in the middle of "The Moral Animal" a book I'm sure you've read Toshi.

[Toshi]

Nice link, good reading. I am in the middle of "The Moral Animal" a book I'm sure you've read Toshi.
nope, haven't read that one. who is it by? should i read it?

[Ridemonkey]

When things are tough, I prefer to turn to alcohol.

[punkassean]

It's written by Robert Wright and it is about evolutionary psychology. I just started (~50 pages in) but so far it's great. It picks up nicely where I left off with my last read, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. I can't believe it took me so long to read that one. What a great book!

[punkassean]

When things are tough, I prefer to turn to alcohol.

They don't call it Jesus Juice for nothin'. Plus look at the example set by Jesus hisself, he was at a party that run dry o' booze so he up and turnt water into wine so's they could get drunk. I'd of r-u-n-n-o-f-t myself but that's just me.

[Ridemonkey]

So God is an anology for beer? I think I'm seeing the light!

Edit: Hallewjaw Jesus!

[punkassean]

^ aim-in my brotha!

Toshi- the ISBN is 0-679-76399-6 if you're interested.

[Silver]

They don't call it Jesus Juice for nothin'. Plus look at the example set by Jesus hisself, he was at a party that run dry o' booze so he up and turnt water into wine so's they could get drunk. I'd of r-u-n-n-o-f-t myself but that's just me.

I think Bill Hicks has a routine about that:

"Uh Jesus, I've got this oregano..."

[Toshi]

^ aim-in my brotha!

Toshi- the ISBN is 0-679-76399-6 if you're interested.
thanks, it's on the list. :thumb:

[punkassean]

I think Bill Hicks has a routine about that:

"Uh Jesus, I've got this oregano..."

HAHAHAH nice!

[Changleen]

Awesome article. :thumb:

[blue]

Yeah, here a moron (okay, well...they're almost all corrupt morons) in our state legislature is attempting to pass a bill that will force creationism, known by its oxymoron twin "intelligent design", on Utah public schools.

What the ultra-right (In Utah, the hardcore Mormons) fails to realize is that the LDS (Mormon) Church has come out and said that Darwinian Evolution may possibly have been a tool in God's creation of the Earth and Man.

Who said Jeebus couldn't use natural methods to create man?

That is one of the main reasons I dislike most mainstream creationist faiths....

[Silver]

Who said Jeebus couldn't use natural methods to create man?



It's the whole slipperly slope thing. You start telling kids that, and they might realize that the whole thing still can work without Jesus/Allah/Moroni/Thor and then before you know it you have a whole state full of devil worshipping rapists.

[punkassean]

Even evolution can't explain how the original form of the being came to exist, it only explains how it has evolved to it's current state. The whole argument is pointless really. Obviously there is more going on than any man is aware of so why try to pretend we know definitively the answers???

[Changleen]

It's the whole slipperly slope thing. You start telling kids that, and they might realize that the whole thing still can work without Jesus/Allah/Moroni/Thor and then before you know it you have a whole state full of devil worshipping rapists.Like us.

[fluff]

Yeah, here a moron (okay, well...they're almost all corrupt morons) in our state legislature is attempting to pass a bill that will force creationism, known by its oxymoron twin "intelligent design", on Utah public schools.

Does oxymoron mean something different in Utah?

[Andyman_1970]

Who said Jeebus couldn't use natural methods to create man?


I won't comment on the state of Mormonism - but the idea that God set into motion evolution or some similar event is knowns in Theology realms as Thesitic Evolution.

[MikeD]

I won't comment on the state of Mormonism - but the idea that God set into motion evolution or some similar event is knowns in Theology realms as Thesitic Evolution.

And it harkens back to the original Platonic proof of god...the "unmoved mover."

What I don't get is how people can come up with a political and religious (?) justification for their worldview and somehow manage to push it as "science." "Science" is a class for teaching, well, science! Science uses certain methods to come to its conclusions, and science class should teach the history of scientific worldviews and the current scientific worldview along with the support/justification for those ideas, and potential problems with it (the fairly nebulous origin of life in the theory is one of those problems!!).

Teaching something that's NOT supported by scientific thinking isn't science, it's anti-scientific. Fine, if you think science is a crock, just use a fundamentalist Christian [ed: that's not to say a universal Christian thing , just trying to encapsulate this particular ignorance, claiming a base in Christianity, that's about these days] worldview and preach hell and brimstone on the heretics and heathens...but the attempt to subvert scientific thinking and education by appropriating its methods to push an un-scientific agenda...how the **** can you get away with doing that??

Do these people honestly think they're doing their kids and society a favor by pushing loose pseudo-science on kids as if it's widely accepted outside their head-in-the-sand communties whose beliefs are so fragile that they fear anyone to speak contrary to their views??

Edit: Sorry, I guess I'm preaching to the choir here... :p Should've spent my day's Political Forum effort writing something that we'll actually argue about.

MD

[llkoolkeg]

I look at the whole debate as akin to Sisyphus rolling his stone. The arguments for each viewpoint are with time getting slightly more sophisticated(dare I say evolved), but other than for killing time at a cocktail party, they are pointless because neither will be proved or disproved(most likely) in our lifetimes. I look at ID as simply a more sophisticated rebuttal or backlash against the unyielding assault against religion(or at least Christian religion) perpetrated by ego-masturbating intellectuals who are so immodest as to believe that we'll one day have the universe quantified, life reduced to a formula and the concept of God erased by mathematical proof. I think godless scientists and doctors are great, though. Their tireless efforts to distill understanding from mystery have certainly helped to advance human knowledge regardless of the misguided motives or faulty belief system that spawned them. That's why I go to Doc Baker for a broken leg and Rev. Alden for a broken spirit.

[clancy98]

That's why I go to Doc Baker for a broken leg and Rev. Alden for a broken spirit.

A-men! :thumb:

IMO, (which I know you're all not interested in) Science is just what happens when we finally explain things we never understood and thereby labeled as religion. Like Zeus.

BUT, I think for the human aspect (certain) people need spirituality. That being said, teach science at school and religion at home if you must.

I do wonder how is a parent (or a teacher) supposed to explain the discrepancies when they arise, without invalidating the teacher or the parent?

[narlus]

I think Bill Hicks has a routine about that:

"Uh Jesus, I've got this oregano..."

that was david cross (using sage instead of oregano), unless he swiped bill's bit.

[narlus]

look at ID as simply a more sophisticated rebuttal

what is so sophisticated about it?

[Silver]

that was david cross (using sage instead of oregano), unless he swiped bill's bit.

Whoops, sorry about that.

[Silver]

Do these people honestly think they're doing their kids and society a favor by pushing loose pseudo-science on kids as if it's widely accepted outside their head-in-the-sand communties whose beliefs are so fragile that they fear anyone to speak contrary to their views??



Yes, most of them honestly do. It also speaks to the amazing persecution complex that Christians have in this country. Look at llkoolkeg's post right under yours.

[MikeD]

Yes, most of them honestly do. It also speaks to the amazing persecution complex that Christians have in this country. Look at llkoolkeg's post right under yours.


Yeah, but I don't think my point was clear, actually...what worries me isn't the teaching of a religious worldview to kids...it's the crossing of genre lines.

If I went and taught in a physics class how the theory of a closed big bang universe which expands and contracts back to a singuarity is, in fact, true, and results from the Breaths of Brahma which define the ages of the universe, I'd face objections from both scientists and Christians and scientists who are Christian and Christian Scientists, even. Hell, most Hindu scientists, I think, would object and think I was a crackpot for mixing my subjects like this.

But it's OK with Christianity, because, well, ummm...

MD

[llkoolkeg]

what is so sophisticated about it?

It exceeds the oft-used "do as I say, not as I do" and "God works in mysterious ways", right?

[Andyman_1970]

but other than for killing time at a cocktail party, they are pointless because neither will be proved or disproved(most likely) in our lifetimes.

Once again well said LL.......... :thumb:

Although I'm a Creationist, I stay away from discussions such as these as I see them as pointless. The interesting thing I discovered is that not only Jesus but the rabbi's as well don't spend a whole lot of time on the matter - so as a disciple of said Jesus I too choose not to spend a whole lot of time on the matter.......

[Andyman_1970]

It exceeds the oft-used "do as I say, not as I do" and "God works in mysterious ways", right?

Mystery, something that was culturally destroyed with the advent of modern era thinking..............

[llkoolkeg]

Do these people honestly think they're doing their kids and society a favor by pushing loose pseudo-science on kids as if it's widely accepted outside their head-in-the-sand communties whose beliefs are so fragile that they fear anyone to speak contrary to their views??
Yes, most of them honestly do. It also speaks to the amazing persecution complex that Christians have in this country. Look at llkoolkeg's post right under yours.

What exactly are you trying to suggest, Silver? That I "push loose pseudo-science on kids", that I am part of a "head-in-the-sand community whose beliefs are so fragile that they fear anyone to speak contrary to their views" or that I as a Christian have a persecution complex? If it is, as I suspect, the latter, I would point out that atheists seem much more brave about confronting Christian dragons than those who might otherwise point the finger of racism at them. I suspect atheists dislike all religions, but Christians happen to be the "safest" target in a world dominated by Western sensibilities.

[MikeD]

Once again well said LL.......... :thumb:

Although I'm a Creationist, I stay away from discussions such as these as I see them as pointless.

The debate between creationism (in whatever form) and evolution might well be pointless, but the debate over what to teach in school science courses most certainly isn't...

"Live and let live" is usually my philosophy with others' beliefs, but in this case, there's a subversion of the public education system in the country to push a specific religious group's agenda. This violates the separation of church and state, for one, and weakens the country as a whole by producing people ill-adjusted to understand the modern world. Whether you subscribe to the theory of evolution as an individual is your business; what's presented to kids in public schools is everyone's. And although Kansas is far away from me, I don't want America to get any stupider and weaker and less competitive in the world stage than it already is.

Now, I suppose you could say that my view is defensive, and that if I was so sure evolution was true, I'd not object to alternative theories being taught.

But you'd be misunderstanding my point. I'm not touting evolution as truth, but as the only prevalent *scientific* theory as to how life as we know it has come about. If there were other valid scientific theories, they should be taught in science class as well. I don't care if a creationist explains his views to my (theoretical) kids, or if they're taught the creationist Christian view in a religion class. That's fine and I want them to understand other views thoroughly and weigh them in their own minds. But I don't want it taught to them in science class as if it's mainstream, accepted scientific theory. And I want them to understand the difference between theories, scientific laws, and facts, and the shortcomings of science, philosophy, and religion, respectively and collectively.

MD

[MikeD]

Mystery, something that was culturally destroyed with the advent of modern era thinking..............

And something even a lot of "Christians" don't want to accept...witness the pseudo-science with which they try and defend their views.

MD

[Silver]

What exactly are you trying to suggest, Silver? That I "push loose pseudo-science on kids", that I am part of a "head-in-the-sand community whose beliefs are so fragile that they fear anyone to speak contrary to their views" or that I as a Christian have a persecution complex? If it is, as I suspect, the latter, I would point out that atheists seem much more brave about confronting Christian dragons than those who might otherwise point the finger of racism at them. I suspect atheists dislike all religions, but Christians happen to be the "safest" target in a world dominated by Western sensibilities.

If you support the ID movement, yes to question 1.

From your comments in this thread, yes to question 2.

For what it's worth, I think all religions are as pointless as any other. However, the fact that I'm not railing against Muslims in this thread is because they aren't at the vanguard of a movement in the country I live in trying to teach myth in science class.

[Andyman_1970]

And something even a lot of "Christians" don't want to accept...witness the pseudo-science with which they try and defend their views.

MD

Agreed, as most evangelical Christianity (which I'm most familiar with) has it's ideological roots deep in modern era thinking. It's amazing how often my students get aggravated with me when they ask me a question like "if God knows and is in control of everything how can we have free will" or "explain the Trinity" my answer is always "it's a mystery" - IMO the culture of "must have all the answers" at least with regards to Christianity today, is killing off the wonder and awe people have for their Creator.

[MMike]

**mutter mutter ** Stupid Creator.......

[fluff]

If it's a mystery how do we know anything about it?

[Andyman_1970]

The debate between creationism (in whatever form) and evolution might well be pointless, but the debate over what to teach in school science courses most certainly isn't...


I would argue that a greater role of the parent in their childs education is in order if one wants to bring up a child with a particular worldview. The idea that the school (or even the church for that matter) is solely responsible for shaping a child's worldview and understanding the role of science with regards to this matter is a mistake - the parents should have an active role in the education both in science and spiritual matters of their children.

[MikeD]

If it's a mystery how do we know anything about it?

Now you're applying a scientific way of thinking to a more mystical tradition...just isn't going to work, except to make some scientists disdainful of religion and vice-versa.

Andy, I do totally agree with you...parents should be shaping the worldview, and the schools should be providing useful tools and knowledge for the kids, not belief systems (although in a Derridian sense, that's unavoidable...).

MD

[Andyman_1970]

Andy, I do totally agree with you...

Holy cow................does this mean I'm resonable? :)

[SprungShoulders]

I won't comment on the state of Mormonism...
:nono: In reference to the "One True Faith" ( :help: ), your should always capitalize the "s", i.e. State. ;) :p

.....And it's a good thing indeed that we have such great mountain biking out here, otherwise - aside from the National Parks - this state wouldn't have much to contribute to the world community. Fry Sauce notwithstanding. :evil:

[Andyman_1970]

:nono: In reference to the "One True Faith" ( :help: ), your should always capitalize the "s", i.e. State. ;) :p:

LOL, my lower case "s" stands with regards to my reference to the church of the LDS......... :D

.....And it's a good thing indeed that we have such great mountain biking out here, otherwise - aside from the National Parks - this state wouldn't have much to contribute to the world community. Fry Sauce notwithstanding. :evil:

If it weren't so far away from my family, I'd love to live in Utah, I'd be getting into spiritual kung fu matches all the time.............. :evil:

[jacksonpt]

I agree with the notion that which is correct is a worthless arguement... however which to teach is very important - especially to believes of the creation story.

How old are kids when they are taught about evolution these days? Old enough to be able to pick whether they want to learn about evolution or Creation? No doubt most kids would pick evolution because of the general uncoolness factor of religion amongst 10-16 year olds, but...

[Westy]

No doubt most kids would pick evolution because of the general uncoolness factor of religion amongst 10-16 year olds, but...

You live in a heathen blue state. I would not say kids consider relgion uncool everywhere. My neices in South Dakota tell me kids in their school are taunted/teased and beat up if they do things considered "unchristian" like read Harry Potter books :confused:.

[jacksonpt]

You live in a heathen blue state. I would not say kids consider relgion uncool everywhere. My neices in South Dakota tell me kids in their school are taunted/teased and beat up if they do things considered "unchristian" like read Harry Potter books :confused:.
Seriously??? I'm 29, so I'm kinda out of touch with what's "cool" these days, but from what I've seen - it ain't going to church. But hey... maybe times are a changin.

[narlus]

You live in a heathen blue state. I would not say kids consider relgion uncool everywhere. My neices in South Dakota tell me kids in their school are taunted/teased and beat up if they do things considered "unchristian" like read Harry Potter books :confused:.

that's awesome that they use unchristian tactics (taunt/tease/beat up) to berate people who do (in their estimation) unchristian things.

[Westy]

Seriously??? I'm 29, so I'm kinda out of touch with what's "cool" these days, but from what I've seen - it ain't going to church. But hey... maybe times are a changin.

I think it is a regional thing. Their school seems to be ruled by some kind of moralist thuggery. Where I went ot school you'd get beat up for not having the right logo embroidered on your shirt.

[jacksonpt]

Where in VA are you? My wife has family in Lynchburgh, and there's definitely a stronger "support" of religion in that area than there is up here.

[Andyman_1970]

My neices in South Dakota tell me kids in their school are taunted/teased and beat up if they do things considered "unchristian" like read Harry Potter books :confused:.

How very un Jesus like of them.............beat people up in the Name of Jesus............nice........... :think:

[clancy98]

yes true but they ARE schoolkids.

Are we gonna ream them next, and show them who's boss?

then we'll all feel better. yeah.

[Westy]

How very un Jesus like of them.............beat people up in the Name of Jesus............nice........... :think:

They are just stupid kids. They find the darndest things to separate themselves to develope some kind of hierarchy, it also shows how impressionable kids are to misguided comments from adults.

Where in VA are you? My wife has family in Lynchburgh, and there's definitely a stronger "support" of religion in that area than there is up here.

I'm in Charlottesville Va, 60 miles north of Lynchburg, I have no idea what the state of religion is around here. Said bullying in my neices school takes place in Siox Falls South Dakota.

[Andyman_1970]

They are just stupid kids. They find the darndest things to separate themselves to develope some kind of hierarchy, it also shows how impressionable kids are to misguided comments from adults.


Unfortunately from adults who probably claim to be followers of Jesus....... :mumble:

[clancy98]

**** then we'd better kick them too, huh?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0963395483.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[llkoolkeg]

Originally Posted by llkoolkeg
What exactly are you trying to suggest, Silver? That I "push loose pseudo-science on kids", that I am part of a "head-in-the-sand community whose beliefs are so fragile that they fear anyone to speak contrary to their views" or that I as a Christian have a persecution complex? If it is, as I suspect, the latter, I would point out that atheists seem much more brave about confronting Christian dragons than those who might otherwise point the finger of racism at them. I suspect atheists dislike all religions, but Christians happen to be the "safest" target in a world dominated by Western sensibilities.

If you support the ID movement, yes to question 1.

From your comments in this thread, yes to question 2.

For what it's worth, I think all religions are as pointless as any other. However, the fact that I'm not railing against Muslims in this thread is because they aren't at the vanguard of a movement in the country I live in trying to teach myth in science class.

I don't support any movement other than the passage of $hit through my bowels. I am a Christian and denominationally, a Lutheran. I don't push anything, be it religion or herb. I state my opinion, like it or not, and worry not a whit about my approval ratings here.

Your response to #2 only illustrates that you really don't hear even when your claim and appear to listen. I am not a part of any "head-in-the-sand-community" unless you mean to say that all Christians are irrefutably and by definition ignorant. My beliefs are anything but fragile and if you think I fear opposing viewpoints, you really have no clue as to what I'm about. :rolleyes:

I stand by #3. Your history here speaks for itself when it comes to your stance on the Christian religion and its practitioners. I'm afraid no courage points will be given for your attempting to count coup on wounded opponents.

[Silver]

I am not a part of any "head-in-the-sand-community" unless you mean to say that all Christians are irrefutably and by definition ignorant.


If you support teaching ID or creationism in science class, you are by definition scientifically ignorant. There is no difference between that and a Trekkie who thinks we need to spend time in physics on the way a warp drive works, or a Star Wars fan that wants to include the study of Wookie habitat in an ecology class.

[Silver]

I stand by #3. Your history here speaks for itself when it comes to your stance on the Christian religion and its practitioners.

Really? You get the feeling I have stong opinions on the subject? Whatever gave you that idea?

But if you think it's only Christianity that I find ridiculous, I'd have to say that the ole' persecution complex is hard at work again.

[mack]

"head-in-the-sand community whose beliefs are so fragile that they fear anyone to speak contrary to their views" .

Yes. :monkey:

[MMike]

or a Star Wars fan that wants to include the study of Wookie habitat in an ecology class.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.. ...

That was good.

[clancy98]

Simmer down Silver. Your making all the RM racists jealous.

[llkoolkeg]

If you support teaching ID or creationism in science class, you are by definition scientifically ignorant. There is no difference between that and a Trekkie who thinks we need to spend time in physics on the way a warp drive works, or a Star Wars fan that wants to include the study of Wookie habitat in an ecology class.

Where did I say that I support teaching ID or creationism in science class? I didn't...and for the record, I don't. You were just making erroneous assumptions, jumping to conclusions and incorrectly lumping all Christians into the same homogenous pot.

[Silver]

Lot of ifs in front of my posts. If you support teaching it: It took you this long to say you didn't? Well then, I don't have much of a quarrel with you about this. It really doesn't matter to me what other people think. I don't drive around looking at people and saying to myself, "I bet that guy is a Muslim! Oh, over there...gotta be a Christian! Scum! Scum!"

Sure, a little sticker that says Jesus Rocks! on the back of your 60K SUV makes me chuckle a bit...but so does a Dale Earnhart 3. Sue me.

That doesn't matter too much though. You said you considered the debate pointless. It really isn't. There is something very important going on here, which MikeD has touched on nicely earlier on.

[llkoolkeg]

Really? You get the feeling I have stong opinions on the subject? Whatever gave you that idea?

But if you think it's only Christianity that I find ridiculous, I'd have to say that the ole' persecution complex is hard at work again.

I have no doubt that from your lofty angle on the world, you find many things of value ridiculous. I don't personally feel persecuted and your fruitless attempt to pigeonhole me into a label you're comfortable with was just that.

[llkoolkeg]

Yes. :monkey:

I propose that you amend your username to "sack".

[Silver]

I look at ID as simply a more sophisticated rebuttal or backlash against the unyielding assault against religion(or at least Christian religion) perpetrated by ego-masturbating intellectuals who are so immodest as to believe that we'll one day have the universe quantified, life reduced to a formula and the concept of God erased by mathematical proof.

You don't feel persecuted, but you feel that there is an unyielding assault against your religion?

Which is it?

[llkoolkeg]

You don't feel persecuted, but you feel that there is an unyielding assault against your religion?

Which is it?

Both.

I don't feel persecuted because I don't consider myself a victim and nobody has done anything to me personally(at least that I'm aware of) due to my status as a Christian. Christianity, however, is on the defensive. Unfortunately, many people equate "Christian" with "Roman Catholic" or "Born Again" and do not comprehend how different Christians are from one another. If you were a naive person, you might believe w/o ever having met one, that Christians are just simpleminded, gullible, snake-handling and strychnine-chugging anal rape survivors hell-bent on enslaving brown peoples and remolding the world in a puritan image. Christians would be just another oddity to point at, whisper about or jeer while flying by their horse & buggy in your new Chrysler 300. For whatever reason, being Christian just ain't cool anymore...it's the new punk. :rolleyes:

[Silver]

That's a persecution complex hard at work.

You do realize that Christians haven't had a stranglehold on the country politically and socially as strong as they do now for maybe 100 years? They've even stopped fighting each other to band together against the infidels. I think it's a dying gasp (not for religion, but for the intermingling of religion and politics) but I'm not having fun being around to watch it die.

[clancy98]

Silver what did your parents do to you to make you hate everybody so much?


edit woohoo 666 views!

[llkoolkeg]

That's a persecution complex hard at work.

You do realize that Christians haven't had a stranglehold on the country politically and socially as strong as they do now for maybe 100 years? They've even stopped fighting each other to band together against the infidels. I think it's a dying gasp (not for religion, but for the intermingling of religion and politics) but I'm not having fun being around to watch it die.
No, that's a misdiagnosis by one that I suspect lacks the credentials to offer one at all, much less with a straight face.

That's just your paranoia cropping up. Religion was much more powerful 100 years ago than today. I think the current situation less a dying gasp than an angry backlash against churlish attempts at premature burial.

[blue]

:nono: In reference to the "One True Faith" ( :help: ), your should always capitalize the "s", i.e. State. ;) :p

.....And it's a good thing indeed that we have such great mountain biking out here, otherwise - aside from the National Parks - this state wouldn't have much to contribute to the world community. Fry Sauce notwithstanding. :evil:

Hahahaha, so true!

:help:

[Andyman_1970]

For whatever reason, being Christian just ain't cool anymore...it's the new punk. :rolleyes:

Sweet I've always wanted to be punk...................

[Andyman_1970]

If you were a naive person, you might believe w/o ever having met one, that Christians are just simpleminded, gullible, snake-handling and strychnine-chugging anal rape survivors hell-bent on enslaving brown peoples and remolding the world in a puritan image. Christians would be just another oddity to point at, whisper about or jeer while flying by their horse & buggy in your new Chrysler 300.

Even the micro "e community" here on the Monkey Christians come in different shapes and flavors........so please Silver don't lump us all together with the street preaching "turn or burn" types..........

[Silver]

The funny thing is, my knowledge of theology (especially conservative protestant theology and Calvinism specifically) is better than anyone else's here except for Andyman. So I have a bit of a bemused grin on my face when I get accused of not knowing anything about Christians. I don't actively go around hating Christians. My whole family would qualify if that was the case.

I really don't care for the politically active version that we see lately. The only thing that corrupts a religion faster than money may be politics. And if you don't think that Christianity has gained power lately, let's look at a quote from Barry Goldwater (that ****ing pinko commmie):

"However, on religious issues there can be little or no compromise.
There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious
beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than
Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme
being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's
behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are
growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with
wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following
their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups
on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a
loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the
political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if
I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.'
Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to
claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even
more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every
religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my
vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today:
I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their
moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.' "

Can you imagine him winning the GOP nomination in the last decade? Or the next?

[Changleen]

Barry sounds like a dude. Isn't there a building or Terminal named after him in SF somewhere? The name so rings a bell.... The Barry M. Goldwater something or other? Is that right?

[Silver]

Barry sounds like a dude. Isn't there a building or Terminal named after him in SF somewhere? The name so rings a bell.... The Barry M. Goldwater something or other? Is that right?

You don't know who Goldwater is? :D

Check out wikipedia, I'd guess they might have a little write up on him.

[Changleen]

Don't make me type... It's past 4:20...

OK, OK...

(...wikiwikiwiki...)

They've got a big write up.

Ah, I know where I heard it now - It's the terminal building at Skyharbour in Phoenix. Man, that's an Airport I've been to too many times.

So he was a conservative who from back when conservatives were still sensible human beings. Cool.

Edit: "You can't legislate morality" - Good chap! :thumb:

[fluff]

The funny thing is, my knowledge of theology (especially conservative protestant theology and Calvinism specifically) is better than anyone else's here except for Andyman.
You sure 'bout dat?

[Changleen]

Yeah, I think you'll find Enkidu has a pretty good grasp of things like that...

[clancy98]

. I don't actively go around hating Christians. My whole family would qualify if that was the case.


then why do you do it here?

[MikeD]

Good chap! :thumb:

Wow, I think Hell's air conditioning just kicked in...

MD

[llkoolkeg]

I really don't care for the politically active version that we see lately. The only thing that corrupts a religion faster than money may be politics. And if you don't think that Christianity has gained power lately, let's look at a quote from Barry Goldwater (that ****ing pinko commmie):

"However, on religious issues there can be little or no compromise.
There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious
beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than
Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme
being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's
behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are
growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with
wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following
their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups
on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a
loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the
political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if
I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.'
Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to
claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even
more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every
religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my
vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today:
I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their
moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.' "

Do you have a problem with PACs in general, or just religious ones? I wish that it was possible to get things done in some other way, but that is not realistic in today's world. If you want your voice to be heard, you'd better have your own PAC. It sounds more like Goldwater misses the good ol' days when you bought politicians with cash, high-roller vacations, liquor and hookers. This having his arm twisted behind his back just doesn't appeal to him. The least they could do is wine & dine him at Dominique's while asking for his support!

[Westy]

Do you have a problem with PACs in general, or just religious ones? I wish that it was possible to get things done in some other way, but that is not realistic in today's world. If you want your voice to be heard, you'd better have your own PAC. It sounds more like Goldwater misses the good ol' days when you bought politicians with cash, high-roller vacations, liquor and hookers. This having his arm twisted behind his back just doesn't appeal to him. The least they could do is wine & dine him at Dominique's while asking for his support!


You don't think politicians are bought and sold these days?

[llkoolkeg]

You don't think politicians are bought and sold these days?

They have been courted, honemooned, bought, traded and sold for as long as history has been recorded.

I was just saying that perhaps he preferred the moose lodge/good ol' boy version instead of having to sneak to motels around the expose' cameras or attend boring dinners with blowhards.

[Silver]

You missed Goldwater's point:

You can argue with a normal lobby. You can't argue with God. It's the ultimate argument from authority. Which is cool when you want to live in a theocracy. It also might not be as bad if God got off his ass and told everyone the same thing, but he doesn't seem to want to do that.

We'd probably both agree that a PAC lobbying for Sharia law is a bad idea. I just pop all religions into that same box, and you (understandably) want yours to be special.

[dhtahoe]

Personally I think being from another world came here and said. "Hey let's mix our DNA with these apes over here and see what happens".

[llkoolkeg]

You missed Goldwater's point:

You can argue with a normal lobby. You can't argue with God. It's the ultimate argument from authority. Which is cool when you want to live in a theocracy. It also might not be as bad if God got off his ass and told everyone the same thing, but he doesn't seem to want to do that.

We'd probably both agree that a PAC lobbying for Sharia law is a bad idea. I just pop all religions into that same box, and you (understandably) want yours to be special.

No, I missed the opportunity to agree with you on what his most relevant point was. I grant Goldwater the intelligence to realize he is arguing with politically-motivated representations of interpretations of God's will.

And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate.

The guy's just POed that all the religious PACs don't get together, collectively decide his vote on issues(so long as it does not conflict with the wishes of a BIGGER contributor) and then put together a nice big contribution to his re-election. He just doesn't like a different one calling him up after every single vote pissed because he didn't "stand with them" on that particular sub-issue.

[Silver]

You almost sound like you don't know who Goldwater was...you keep talking about him in present tense.

[MikeD]

My comments follow the article. Actually, forget my comments, because I'm tired of discussing this. But this still blows my mind.
-------------------

Zoo to feature creationism display

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 Posted: 9:14 PM EDT (0114 GMT)

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/08/zoo.display.ap/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

TULSA, Oklahoma (AP) -- The Tulsa Zoo will add a display featuring the biblical account of creation following complaints to a city board about other displays with religious significance, including a Hindu elephant statue.

The Tulsa Park and Recreation Board voted 3-1 on Tuesday in favor of a display depicting God's creation of the world in six days and his rest on the seventh, as told in Genesis, the first book of the Bible.

The vote came after more than two hours of public comment from a standing-room-only crowd.

Zoo employees, religious leaders and others spoke in opposition, saying religion shouldn't be part of the taxpayer-funded scientific institution.

But those who favored the creationist exhibit, including Mayor Bill LaFortune, argued that the zoo already displayed religious items, including the statue of the Hindu god, Ganesh, outside the elephant exhibit and a marble globe inscribed with an American Indian saying: "The earth is our mother. The sky is our father."

"I see this as a big victory," said Dan Hicks, the Tulsa resident who approached the zoo with the idea. "It's a matter of fairness. To not include the creationist view would be discrimination."

Hundreds of people signed a petition supporting the exhibit.

The new display will include a disclaimer that says it represents one view. City attorneys also advised it be placed alongside other cultures' views of creation.

Tulsa Zoo exhibit curator Kathleen Buck-Miser estimated it would take about six months to research and organize the exhibit. She expressed qualms about the zoo delving into theological debate.

"I'm afraid we are going in the wrong direction," she said.

Board member Dale McNamara, who voted against the proposal, agreed.

"I do not like the idea of scripture at the zoo," she said.

Zoo officials had argued that the zoo does not advocate religion and that displays like the elephant statue are meant to show the animal's image among cultures. The same exhibit includes the Republican Party's elephant symbol.
------------------------------------------

[jaydee]

I kind of think creationists belong in a zoo anyway.

[fluff]

This is actually democracy in action. Isn't that a good thing?

[Andyman_1970]

While I'm a Creationist, using a zoo to advocate that seems a bit odd to me, not bad just odd.

Anyway, that's Tulsa for you, the wacky Pentacostal/Charismatic Christian center of the US................. :rolleyes: