trail building

[Pat...]

This summer my friends and I are going to be building trails at his ranch in morro bay. We are going to build wooden laders and drops and stuff. Does anyone have any tips or good books on trail building and ladders and bridges?

[mindlessfr]

you should find everything you need there
http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/

[Jou]

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It's not very complicated. Add supports underneath on the sides and at the end of your ladder.

[Pat...]

I just want to get a book to get ideas for other stunts and stuff and also to build a trail that will last.

[yojimborace]

Just look at some pictures of pinkbike, they have tons of good NS pics. If you want real strong Northshores use cross- bracing

[dwaugh]

Triangles are your friend. Remember that along with the other tips and your stuff should be strong.
Just pause any movie like New World Disorder when they are on ladders and look at them.

[yojimborace]

Yeah, definately use triangles. If you are low on wood, I've found that pallets work pretty good. Make sure you find some strong ones though.

[Castle]

www.gutsploder.net look here for ideas

[Pat...]

Palets are the fork lift things right? I know how strong triangles are. When I bury the legs in the ground, wont the still move?

[spectaculardark]

yeh palets are the fork lift things, and yeh some are sturdy and some arent just look around a test em out

[Ciaran]

you should find everything you need there
http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/
So far this is the only good advice that's been givin.

If you are going to build trails and stunts get the IMBA book, and study their website. Do not use pallets. They are usually made of cheap pine. They don't do well in the long run for ladders and bridges. The pine will weaken with age, use, and weather. If someone hurts themseleves on a stunt that you built and they can prove it, you may be liable.

[mindlessfr]

your best choice of tree to use is definitly ceder cause it lasts a lot longer and use triangles for stiffness

[Pat...]

I can't find the boook on their website. Is cedar expensive?

[yojimborace]

Yes, it's super expensive. The stronger it is, the more it costs. That's why I use palets, they're free and many can hold up fo a long time. If you find strong enough palets they should be fine. I've even found a few cedar palets. You just might wanna inspect em every once in a while. Bury the legs of the Northshore about 2 feet into the ground and they shouldn't move, just make sure you pack the dirt around them in. If you are still worried about them moving, you can put in other bracing to help hold it up.
Originally posted by Ciaran
If someone hurts themseleves on a stunt that you built and they can prove it, you may be liable. Since it's at his friends house, I don't think too many people will be riding them.

[Jayridesacove]

www.gutsploder.net look here for ideas

Is it wrong that I get an erection from looking through that website?

[Pat...]

No, thats perfectly normal.

[TM1]

Ciaran got it right ..DON'T USE PALLETS!!

Cedar isn't that expensive depending on where you are. On the NS there is plenty of Western red cedar just out in the woods. In NC I buy Cedar for $.80 / board foot at a local sawmill and collect downed trees in the woods.

Use treated if you can't get Cedar. Wood that rots will only keep you rebuilding things every year. And, can lead to injury and liability.

Other wood that last that you may find are locust, red oak heart wood(5 years), cypress, or pitch pine heart wood. Even with our Eastern Red Cedar the sap wood (white part) will rot.

[dwaugh]

Since it's at his friends house, I don't think too many people will be riding them.
How many people around that area ride? I have a lot built in my woods, and a no trespassing sign. People still go in there, and on some instances there have been people who I don't know who I find in there. Just dont tell anyone about it and you'll be ok for a little bit, but certainly not forever. Then again,if no one else rides stuff like that around the area you are ok.

I use scraps from new houses, and I tend to rebuild every year or so just for fun.

[Pat...]

Me, one friend, another friend, his dad, another dad, maybe a few other friends. Its on his ranch, I think there is a fence around it. I haven't heard of any trails around here with wooden structures. There are not a lot of freeriders around here. More bmx'ers. I highly doubt that any would come his ranch off the freeway and ride.

[dwaugh]

Me, one friend, another friend, his dad, another dad, maybe a few other friends. Its on his ranch, I think there is a fence around it. I haven't heard of any trails around here with wooden structures. There are not a lot of freeriders around here. More bmx'ers. I highly doubt that any would come his ranch off the freeway and ride.
Lucky. :thumb:

[Ciaran]

Here's the link to the book. Or rather, where you can buy the book.. http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/trail_solutions.html The first link I posted has various articles about trailbuilding.

On private property that only a few friends know about. That sounds like a dream! (due to my new "position" and efforts, I am learning a lot about liability and bikes. It's scary out there)

And yeah, I get a wood looking at gutsploder too.

[TM1]

Here's a wall ride I built out of Eastern Red Cedar logs. The Planking was ripped 2" thick with a chainsaw. The super structure is basic post and beam construction of notched cedar logs. There is no trussing (triangles) in the structure other than than wall tread. It took almost 2 dozen large logs that I got from a farmer for doing chainsaw work for him.

There is a better version of the pic on sirbikesalot.com

[TM1]

This is an arched skinny orver a rootball and creek. Again, made from chainsawed red cedar planks. To make a smooth arch I ripped the planks with a taper. Thick on one end, down to nothing. Bent them to a curve on the vertical supports and screwed them together. There are stiffeners screwed to the bottom. The supports are bolted to the heartwood of the oak blowdown, and the diagonal bracing (triangles) are sunk into the ground.

[TM1]

This is the "Monster" jump. All sawmill cut red cedar lumber. It's an ajustable jump on a 50' high hill side. Half the hill is set up and the rest transition.

Two things make this structure unique. First is the curving of the ramp from hillside to lip. I pounded cedar stakes two feet into the ground, notched them for crossmembers and used full sized sawmill 2"x4" x 12' bent to a sweet curve bolted to crossmembers. We simply laid them sideways and 2 men stood on them while I screwed them to the crossmembers. The second is the hinged lip and kicker board than bends over the hinge as its raised.

You would be amazed at how it seperates the men from the boys as that lip goes up. It's two feet higher from the lowest setting to the highest. It's about half way up in this pic.

There is a nice vid of this one on sirbikesalot.com

[yojimborace]

Cedar isn't even close to that cheap where I live lol. I just use palets at my house. And no one has ever been trespassing down there. The only cheap cedar is when you find a cedar palet, which is kinda hard to find. What you use depends on how much money you can spend, how much the strong wood costs in your area, what kind of trees you have in your area and how many people are gonna ride it.

[TM1]

Treated lumber can last a life time, and is the best alternative to cedar.

This is a sky bridge built from treated scrap I collected at the local dump. All of the peices were cut to the size you see in the pic.

It was built on a living red cedar that was blown down in Hurricaine Fran. The way I ramped over the rootball allows for a nice little jump at that end and protects the rootball from damage to keep the tree alive as long as possible. There are 4 vertical cedar logs and a couple diagonal braces supporting the tree trunk from below. Gives it a very solid feel and hopefully will also help protect the life of the tree.

Not sure why it wouldn't put up both pics. The one you see is Craig on the bridge. If you click on the attachment there is a full view of the bridge.

[TM1]

More treated scap in this stunt.

The ramp in the background Is mostly treated accept for a 12' split cedar log skinny as the entrance. You can see more treated scrap wood as part of the lander.

It's a good demonstration of useing wood dirt and rock. All it cost was hard work and time.

BTW South Carolina is a great source of cypress logs, which is the best ever stunt material. Not cheap, but, for a few hundred bucks you can have a truck load delivered to your door. I'm sure if you knew where to look you could locate red cedar in SC.

[TM1]

All of these stunts are on Private Property and is only a small sampleing of the stunts here. The entrance to the property is from my house. I still build things to last. And, require anyone riding on the property to sign a liablity waiver.

There is no way I could rebuild all the stuff every year. Just the nails and screws would backrupt me and there would be no time to ride, eat or sleep. Why would anyone want to basicly waste their hard work to rot and rebuilding. Trust me, a year or so ain't even close to long enough to this kind of commitment into stunt building. Build it right and ride it for a life time is the best attitude

[yojimborace]

Yeah, I use treated wood and palets, treated wood for the more inportant stuff

[dirtyamerican]

[QUOTE=TM1]

In NC I buy Cedar for $.80 / board foot at a local sawmill and collect downed trees in the woods.

QUOTE]

Same here. The local saw mill lets me have all I can haul for $15. You can find some decent scraps and they don't have to be straight. We still use a lot of deadfall although it's hard to find enough at times. There's usually some nice storms that blow through and knock down some live ones.

[Pat...]

I will go to lumber yards and ask if they have free scraps. I have goten wood that way before. We could build some flat ladders with a drop to a down sloping tranny. We are going to build a teeter totter. WHat are some other fun things that aren't too hard to build. WHat kind of screws do you use, deck screw?

[yojimborace]

You could try to make a drawbridge, like the one up at Northstar. Bermed Northshores are always awesome. Try to "enhance" natural features to help you out because those are always the coolest things. Maybe try some roller coaster type things too. Go out and scope out the land and be creative

[TM1]

Definately enhanceing natural features is the way to go. I try to let the terrian tell me what to build. Most of the time it's a comprimise between grand plans and minimal building. I do love to sculpt the good ol' Carolina clay.

I like the Deck Mate 3 1/2" #8 screws with the phillips square drive.

Yeah, Think Roller Coaster. Good Flow between stunts putting things in sequence. It doesn't have to all be wood to make a good roller. Switching up from dirt to wood, from totally natural to fully built structures works great. One of my farorite Rollers here at Tar River is Dead End; a mostly dirt, mostly natural run down a small ravine with berms, banks, bridges and ramps.

[Pat...]

We have those square ones. THey don't strip.

[TM1]

Square drive is great.

[Pat...]

WOuld it be good to put cement a the legs under the dirt?

[yojimborace]

Cement works ok... but it's kind of a pain. And if you want to change something it makes it a lot more of a challenge.

[Pat...]

Oh I just deleted that, it is in this thread (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121110)

[TM1]

The only place I have ever used cement is poured over 4" plastic drain tiles for a mud proof tread at the bottom of ravines.

I did use some old harden bags of quickcrete as structure in mounds, like useing big rocks.

[yojimborace]

Yeah, if you bury posts deep enough and pack em in well it isn't necessary to use cement

[yojimborace]

Just wondering but how many acres is your friends ranch?

[theFOOT]

cunstuction sites have a ton of left-over lumber. just go and ask if you can have some stuff from their scrap pile and they should show you where it is, i have only once have been told i couldnt take their wood and that was because their boss wasnt there, but when he came back he was cool with it. also, dont get crappy old lumber because it will wear away and you'll need new stuff eventually anyways, so might as well get the best stuff you can. you dont need to use cement, just make sure it is stable and bury them so they can stay.

remember, the quicker you put it together, the faster it will break, so it is worth it to invest a lot of time into your trail in order to make it a good quality trail that will last. and as you ride it and stuff, you will still need to maintain it, dont just build it and leave it, make sure everything is in good order every now and then and make a point of going out there just to do maintainence not ride.

[Pat...]

"the quicker you put it together, the faster it will break" -theFOOT
But if I did put some cement down their, it be more stable and might last longer. I wouldn't change, I would just build more.

[TM1]

I'm not convinced about that "The quicker you put it together, the faster it will break" thing.

I've worked as a framing carpenter on and off thru my career. And, speed with quality is a matter of skill, which is a product of experience. Just do things well. If you need to talk to a carpenter or check out a construction book, that's cool. Just build it right. There are deffinately some things to be avoided. Mostly avoid sheering loads on screws or nails like in Balloon construction.

[theFOOT]

For first time builders and people without that much experience, it does pay off to spend a little extra time building something strong so that it will last other than throwing it together so you can ride it right away.

[TM1]

Some Examples of fun things to ride that follow natural terrain, or the materials were found in the woods.

I did have to carve the clay wall into a nicely curved berm.

The flat top log is a red oak, blown down in Floyd, it's the upper log of a double log ride.

The curved ladder bridge is 3 years old, uses seasoned white oak heart wood treads and cedar logs for spars. It's the exit from the lower log.

[MDmorgan]

i have just goten done building a 800k dollor house, and i have some great ipe (EPAY) and mahogony deck scraps that will last forever, and some cedar post. this stuff is great, but never enough to build what i want. as for pallets look for the blue ones, they say "chep" on them and are made out of oak.

[santacruzed]

i always put supports about 1/3 of their length in the ground.....that way if a good storm comes by it should still be ok

[DH biker]

Stunts can be pretty fun, here is one that we built:

My helmet is on the left friend's is on the right. Look for me at Attitash, just find the helmet:
http://img272.echo.cx/img272/4076/cameraphotos285s7ru.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
Looking down on the drop from above:
http://img272.echo.cx/img272/2222/cameraphotos287s2vy.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
To give you somewhat of an idea of the size:
http://img272.echo.cx/img272/4886/cameraphotos286s9gq.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
Me hitting the new stunt:
http://img288.echo.cx/img288/5870/cameraphotos296s8tz.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img288.echo.cx/img288/9056/cameraphotos291s5gg.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Friend hitting it
http://img288.echo.cx/img288/2083/cameraphotos292s9go.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img272.echo.cx/img272/4366/cameraphotos290s5cu.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

[Pat...]

i have built decks and stuff w/ my dad. So, I know basic building and supporting of things. I built a 2' x 8' launch ramp at my other friends house.

To make trails we are going to ride his dirtbikes along certain paths. At firestone last year, I heard they invited a mx club; they rode on the trails for two days which flattened the dirt and grass.

[DH biker]

Bolton Valley in VT for downhill used dirtbikes too.

[Pat...]

It would be fun to have a hip in the instead of a berm.

[TM1]

I love berms But, hey, hips are cool. Here's one you can hit as a Hip or a Gap Up

[TM1]

Here's an interesting combo stunt. It's a Berm.....It's a Hip....It's a Gap

[habitatxskate]

build how you want it to be..just make sure it is strong..use all of your surroundings,,dirt trees...cows anything..just be creative...look at the link people sent you too

[adurham]

make some big step-ups and step-downs use logs and natural things whenever you can also

[habitatxskate]

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It's not very complicated. Add supports underneath on the sides and at the end of your ladder.

that is something you should really do, trust me it sucks when you fall into water since your support never was there and you fall on your faith 3. support every 5 feet depends what wood you are using...man made, 2x4s do it every 4 or something just use good judgement

[Pat...]

I am going over to his ranch tommorrow. We are building the first tri ail in a creek bed. I am thinking about building stepups on the sides and I will see what els there is to work with.

What could I do if there is water in it later in the year? WHat could build that won't be afected by water erosion? I think jumps would get destryed even if there was a little trickle. I could use rocks and build jumps or drops.

[ioscope]

Always make sure that your ladder rungs do not overlap the edges, make them flush with the stringers/beams.

[jdschall]

Always make sure that your ladder rungs do not overlap the edges, make them flush with the stringers/beams.

Why? In general I would extend the rungs past the stringers by around 3". By cutting them flush you are asking for the rungs to split where they are nailed or screwed. 3" overlap gives you a lot more margin for error.

Go root around on NSMB.com's Trail Building forum. There's some really nice stuff over there including some nice ladders built out of single 12" diameter beams. The log is notched and the rungs are placed in the notches and secured with some heavy duty spikes. The rungs probably extend out 6" or more on either side. Looks rock solid (but uber heavy). I suppose in time the rungs could loosen from being loaded on the edges, but in this case I doubt it.

[ioscope]

It's easier to get a consistent edge. Which in turn makes for less injuries. Not to mention load bearing. When the wieght of the rider is loaded off the side of the bridge, it is not ideal. You want the rider weight in the center of the bridge to avoid falling apart, which affects not necessarily just the tread peices, but the bridges structure.
think of it like your car. WOuld you put a one ton block of lead in the side of your truck bed?? NO, put it in th middle, not because it will pull the bed off, but because it is better for the chassis.

[jdschall]

I'm talking 3 inches not 3 feet but other than that I agree with everything you are saying. 3" is right around the width of a tire so it is not much over lap but enough to keep the wood from splitting. If you are a halfway decent carpenter you should have no problems getting a nice clean edge and it will save you from getting too close to your beams and make life much easier for the saw. From a riders perspective, chances are if you are within 3" of the edge you are going off the bridge anyway. Bon Voyage and all that. Look at TM's posts above carefully. You should see that he uses a small overlap on most of his ladder work.

[TM1]

Yeah. Overlap isn't a bad thing at all. The issue of splitting is a good call for overlap, and cedar can split easily. I use it alot. The thickness of the tread will dictate how much cantilever the material can tolerate.

Many times when I'm useing short scrap peices as tread I'll line up one side to the line I'm envisioning for the front tire. Then come back with a chain saw and trim the other side.

If your bridge structure is adversely affected by where your load on the tread is...? I'd start questioning the validity of your super structure.

[Pat...]

There is a big 5' crate thing. Its next to a hil, so we are goin to build a bring onto that, and then ride off the crate onto a landing. He also has a 1' tal 10'x5' aluminum box. We are going to raise it off a hill to make a drop.

He is very lazy, which is why much hasn't been built. He seems to be more excited about building now.

[SXtrailrider]

go forthe trail solution book i used one like that and it works perfectly by the way anyone that lives near santa barbara and want's comunity survase of fix up the track for ellings can i'll give you the dates but we are going to go up soon with some guys and fix it up

[Pat...]

okay, I can help. When? Is the only race there after firestone?