Another DH spot falls to poor decision making

[DHblur]

Read it for yourself. www.leelikesbikes.

Ahhh man could I rant for a while on this one. But I will just say this:

1.)Bridges suck!!! The number one way to piss a land owner or Forest Service off is to build bridges. They look intimidating to viewers and generally require the distruction of trees to help build them. They were a major reason behind those trails in Colorado Springs getting shut down and now our only front range DH spot is gone because of them too. Don't bother with them, they're not even fun and they look dumb too.

2.)Be respectful!!! A land owner gives you minimal stipulations to use his property at no charge and you can't even abide by that? C'mon! I understand that the people that were building those bridges were responsible for securing the site anyway and without that we wouldn't have had the time we did on it, but when you do something like this, you not only lose a spot for yourself and all of us but you put yet another black eye on our portion of the sport. Think!

3.) Finally, I am utterly disgusted that the people that were supposed to be the voice for colorado downhillers a couple of years ago(remember the CDCC) are the same people(for the most part) that have lead the charge in building poor trail on the two most recent shut down spots. It's no wonder we are in the state with our trails that we are.

That's all I have to say. It was good while it lasted and ultimately I would hope that our local downhillers would learn from this and stop building stuff that land owners don't want them to. However, ultimately I know some goon is going to show up and build bridges on the next good spot that pops up so what can I do but sit here and rant. This industry makes me frustrated to say the least.

[Misfitslacker]

link didnt work....sounds like it sucks though

[fireman]

http://leelikesbikes.com/Stories/033005/

[instigator34]

first the bridges at said spot were sick. if you can't ride you don't have to dis it. second if you haven't spent uncountable hours up there building you should keep yer mouth shut. third it is not certain that the land with the wooden stunts belongs to the disgruntled land owner.fourth do not confuse the cdcc with rpm. and last but certainly not least, never mention this riding spot on the internet again.

[EVILTWIN]

boys boys boys....we're all PISSED. So whats with this CDCC? Basically, they took my 10 dollars and ran!? I mean where are they? And arent they directly responsible for getting trails shut down rather that opened? Hell, I'll give em 1000 dollars if i thought it would help. We really need to do something about our sport. Its ALWAYS the same ol' same ol' just like Lee said. The "hot spot" is going to surface to the groms eventually. Do we lobby Boulder county? A private party? Nothings worked so far, we need to change something.

[ioscope]

Funny about the "one last run" thing in his book (bibs)

and it's a ripoff of FLOW the book. (the skill/challenge chart)

[DHblur]

Okay, INSTIGATOR34, let me take this section by section.

The bridges were not sick!!! They were gay, and the land owner had specifically said not to put them in. Simple as that. And don't make me get into the lack of talent it takes to ride those things. They aren't that hard I assure you.

Second, I did spend plenty of time up there with a shovel in my hand. Why do think I am so pissed off. I used a shovel and a pick which should have been all that was used. Not drills and wooden planks.

Third, even if the land does not belong to the guy that was there sunday, the land owner specifically said, "No bridges." So it shouldn't have been done.

Also, what does your comment about the CDCC and RPM have to do with anything. I ride for RPM and I can assure you that no RPM racer has been responsible for the closing of any trails ever.

Finally, do you honestly think that those trails were secret anymore. I can list on less than one hand everyone that I ever showed those trails to, and most of them had been invited by other people. Yet everyday I showed up there, those guys had new people up there. Yet the people that supposedly "ran the trails" had no concern for what the land owner might think about that many people running up and down his property every weekend.

[Beast]

first the bridges at said spot were sick. if you can't ride you don't have to dis it. second if you haven't spent uncountable hours up there building you should keep yer mouth shut. third it is not certain that the land with the wooden stunts belongs to the disgruntled land owner.fourth do not confuse the cdcc with rpm. and last but certainly not least, never mention this riding spot on the internet again.


First off - you've got a fitting rm name . . .

Also, let me say that I've never ridden these trails, nor do I know where they are. Now then - I'd like to counter your accusation of RPM that you posted, and generally I'm not one to jump in a stir things up:
If you'll kindly notice the avatar in the first post, you'll see that it is a RPM logo. The guy who posted first is most likely in the know, rides for RPM and is one helluva racer - I respect him, and the RPM crew, alot. I find it hard to believe that an RPM rider would come out and accuse his own team, as you state, of causing this.

And then there is the CDCC - great idea, lots of backing from a lot of people, horrible follow-up, organization, or even simple initiative beyond collecting dues (which I paid . . .)

Finally, you say to never mention the spot again - as you can see, everyone is keeping the location (beyond a VERY general description of "the 1-70 corridor") below the cover.

[TheInedibleHulk]

Dammit I never even got to ride at this nondescript spot that I know nothing about....

What couldnt my bike have gotten here 2 months ago?

And yes, bridges do suck, big time.

[EVILTWIN]

Hey Instigator, I got this bridge for sale if your looking?

[instigator34]

if you don't want to ride on wooden stunts then don't. although the only reason i can see not too is that you can't. i don't race but you don't see me dissing people who do. did i type rpm i meant rmd (rocky mountain descent). just cause the team captain of rmd was also cdcc chairman doesn't mean that the two entities were affiliated. big crank also had a rider on the board and so were alot of other talented and dedicated riders (ametuer and pro). also rmd did not build the wood in the springs. that was some other riders. alls that happened, concerning the springs, was a couple of rmd riders were misquoted in a newspaper article (talking about their numerous injuries, i believe). also blur, did you ever talk to the land owners before you rode or built up there? and yeah the guys who built the stuff invited new guys to come ride, did they ever invite you? why don't you find your own place to ride. and who appointed you spokesman for this spot anyway? shut up and ride (or dig).

[COmtbiker12]

first the bridges at said spot were sick. if you can't ride you don't have to dis it. second if you haven't spent uncountable hours up there building you should keep yer mouth shut. third it is not certain that the land with the wooden stunts belongs to the disgruntled land owner.fourth do not confuse the cdcc with rpm. and last but certainly not least, never mention this riding spot on the internet again.

The point of getting mad wasn't to diss the bridges (despite him not liking them), the point of the post was to say that people were retarded and took advantage of a good thing. They went too far with the building of trails on the guy's land that he graciously was letting people use and so it shouldn't be about "whining about the guy getting pissed" it should be about whining about why people were retarded enough to abuse their privileges. :nopity: :mumble:

[COmtbiker12]

if you don't want to ride on wooden stunts then don't. although the only reason i can see not too is that you can't. i don't race but you don't see me dissing people who do. did i type rpm i meant rmd (rocky mountain descent). just cause the team captain of rmd was also cdcc chairman doesn't mean that the two entities were affiliated. big crank also had a rider on the board and so were alot of other talented and dedicated riders (ametuer and pro). also rmd did not build the wood in the springs. that was some other riders. alls that happened, concerning the springs, was a couple of rmd riders were misquoted in a newspaper article (talking about their numerous injuries, i believe). also blur, did you ever talk to the land owners before you rode or built up there? and yeah the guys who built the stuff invited new guys to come ride, did they ever invite you? why don't you find your own place to ride. and who appointed you spokesman for this spot anyway? shut up and ride (or dig).
There's still quite a few things down here.:D

[pdnwps]

1) Everyone has their likes and dislikes about trail features. If you like it, give props to the builder. If you don't, then don't ride it...personal attacks are unnecessary.

2) RMD and CDCC have nothing to do with each other. If you have a problem with what used to be the CDCC, take it up with the former board members.

3) I don't race for RMD nor do I have anything to do with the CDCC.

4) Let's get the story straight here; people don't have the facts and are pointing fingers based on assumptions. Those trails exists on land that was once mined. From top to bottom the trails cross through many claim boundaries, i.e., several land owners are involved. For you to assume that these guys intentionally broke a trust is incorrect. In fact, where the bridges are built, is/was *thought* to be on another owners' land (and that owner doesn't care about the wood). The person we met is in fact *one* of the owners', where his boundaries begin and end are still in question. The bottom line is, no matter where his land resides, the trails cross it at some point, therefore his opinion and trust is of great significance to the preservation of those trails. But let's get this straight, people are making this sound like the builders blatantly and intentionally broke an agreement between one land owner...that's simply wrong.

5) With regards to the secrecy of the trails, as of recent months, this place has become much more "open door". I'm not one of the starters, but I've been riding there for years. And for a long time, this place was strongly protected. If you got a personal invite, that was all good, if you didn't, you were poaching. And legally speaking, this *is* private land; if you don't have an invite, you're trespassing. It wasn't until these last few months, did the "starters" adopt a much more open door policy. I think they realized that this territorial-my turf-your turf-pissing contest doesn't help our sport. I was glad to see it. Next thing you know, there were coordinated dig days out there and it was good to see the camaraderie. However, the publicity this has gotten combined with the finger pointing and flaming is probably going to set back the little good will that ever existed. Especially when these attacks are based on wrong assumptions. No doubt, this place is shutdown. But if on the remote chance this place is salvaged, it wouldn't surprise me if the open door attitude is reversed. Think before you flame and you should realize, that's not the right approach.

[dexter]

thank f'n god i am in montana, just this morning before class i did a 14 mile dh that is a 30 minute drive to the top from my campus. not to mention the hunreds of other uber gnar trails around here (from world cup dh speed and berms to 20+ foot hucks and 40 foot gaps) colorado needs to pull their heads out of their asses and think this through.

[TheInedibleHulk]

The problem with trying to keep a trail "secret" is that it is not possible. You can keep a trail location from being common knowledge and keep it off the internet but word is going to spread. I have never been to said spot but I have been invited there, sadly I had no bike at the time. You can't expect to keep a trail all to yourselves forever, people will find out. Around here, even if only serious riders and pros were allowed up there that's still a huge number of people. As far as trail "ownership" the people who built the trail certainly have some authority, but unless you built it on your land you really dont own anything. The best thing to do is just spread the word as much as possible to the riders about what is and is not allowed and do what you can to maintain a good relationship with the land owner. If the landowner doesnt want bridges, than for gods sake dont build bridges, they are gay anyway.

Brendan, if Lee can salvage this and you need people to come tear down bridges and plant trees, give me call. The V10 will be here soon and it would be just lovely if I had a place to ride it.

[1speed]

"and last but certainly not least, never mention this riding spot on the internet again."

sorry to those that don't agree but i am with instigator on this point. you have to earn your way into trails around here. trails are always being closed on the front range DH, XC, etc and i have seen it happen numerous times because of over crowding. even if it seems a lot of people know about a trail, it never hurts to keep it on the DL. in this specific case, the trail was already closed and the real issue is riders losing something great, so i am not flaming the original poster. as a rule i never mention any trails that are not on maps.

i don't ride DH but i am bummed you guys got kicked out of what sounded like a sweet place to ride. good luck with the next area

[©2001]

karma's a bitch i guess.

[neversummersnow]

Dexter, what's MT's B school rank? If it's top 50 I'm transferring.

This is so beurocratic and stupid. 80127 DH will live on and live strong with plenty of trails to shuttle that FIVE, that's right FIVE people will ever know about, so don't even ask.

I love the way we're turning into outcasts of the outdoor world. The bastard child of action sports. It's sweet...

Instigator, READ the post before you "defend" your stance on an issue. Brendon (DHblur) was simply saying the reason the trails got shut down was because of your beloved bridges.

I think everybody would agree the point of having shuttleable DH trails is to get better in a hurry. Bridges don't need to be part of this equation when the trails were as steep and gnarable as ***** *******

Oh well, this doesn't suprise me in the least.

[©2001]

hey neversummer, where are your trails? can i come ride with you? i won't tell...promise.

[instigator34]

karma's a bitch i guess.

what's that suspose to mean?

4) Let's get the story straight here; people don't have the facts and are pointing fingers based on assumptions. Those trails exists on land that was once mined. From top to bottom the trails cross through many claim boundaries, i.e., several land owners are involved. For you to assume that these guys intentionally broke a trust is incorrect. In fact, where the bridges are built, is/was *thought* to be on another owners' land (and that owner doesn't care about the wood). The person we met is in fact *one* of the owners', where his boundaries begin and end are still in question. The bottom line is, no matter where his land resides, the trails cross it at some point, therefore his opinion and trust is of great significance to the preservation of those trails. But let's get this straight, people are making this sound like the builders blatantly and intentionally broke an agreement between one land owner...that's simply wrong.

thank you.

[DHblur]

Okay Instigator. You are very wrong. RMD did build bridges on that property no doubt about it. I was there when it was happening. And don't say that they honestly thought they were allowed to. Everytime I heard a certain RMD rider who was one of the leaders of the trail building going on, say that he didn't really care because he wasn't worried about the land owners up there, it made me sick.

RMD was very much the CDCC and visa versa. Just because one of the Big Crank riders paid his dues doesn't mean he was a part of it.

And in response to whether or not I was invited, yes I was personally invited by an RMD rider and rode in his truck up there for the first time.

Also, why are you even so worried about the trails being secret anymore? Have you noticed the topic of this post?... The trails are shut down because of you guys and your bridge fetishes. Done deal

[COmtbiker12]

karma's a bitch i guess.
LMAO!!! :p

[instigator34]

"RMD did build bridges on that property no doubt about it."

actually i was talking about co springs when i said that they did not build the bridges. the bridges that i have ridden in the springs were built by different riders.

oh, and when i'm "invited" somewhere i usually show the people who invited me some respect. as far as rmd and cdcc goes you guys can figure that out.

and yes the trails are closed. never, ever go there again. anyone.

[dexter]

ha ha bridge fetish b you crack me up same with you spoons. well **** jeff when i applied we where like 27th or something but since iv been here its probably like 150 but check it out its f'n awesomo out here i just went on a street ride around campus and the town and saw more dime pieces out tanning on lawns topless (on their stomachs dammit) than i have seen in mexico. i love me some titties

[dexter]

p.s. everyone who is in the racing "know" has heard and or ridden those trials before they where hardly a secret you boner

[EATYOURFACE]

wow i cant believe i wasted my time reading all that.

[DHblur]

actually i was talking about co springs when i said that they did not build the bridges. the bridges that i have ridden in the springs were built by different riders.

Either way about it, RMD had a major roll in making poor decisions in inviting media of that magnitude to borderline legal trails in the Springs. Thus that trail was shut down or at least downsized quite a bit. Much like that, they knew that it was at best borderline to build bridges and stunts on that trail and it has yet again cost us.


And just to reiterate, I don't have a problem with people who ride bridges. I find hucking boring and not challenging yes, and did I think that the bridges at Idaho springs were worth losing trails over... no! Only very few of the best bridge set ups in Canada do I look at and say,"hey that's kinda interesting." The bridges at Idaho springs did not do that to me and sure were not challenging enough to warrant losing a riding spot over. But all personal biases aside... I have been told since day 1, by RMD riders and leaders that the only stipulation by the land owner was stunts and bridges. They knew that, they built it and now we have yet another land owner mad at us in this state.

I guess maybe one day we'll run out of land owners to piss off here and probably only then will all of this stop.

[DHDUDE]

If you have something you'd like to say, why don't you stop implying people in this little sewing circle and confront them in person. Everyone knows who you are and everyone knows who you're talking about, yet you sit on this website talking about specific people and fail to truly take responsiblity and confront them. By the way, if you weren't such a putz I'd take you to some other "secret" trails with some wood and some stunts that I'm sure would also be stupid, easy and not fun for you.

[The Lazian]

wow i cant believe i wasted my time reading all that.

i agree with this guy. where is the love?

[TheInedibleHulk]

hows the wrist doing lazian?

[The Lazian]

its goin'

if anything ill use by abundant percacet resourse to barter my way to and from races.

goin' on lucky week #13. can't wait to get the cast off and ride instead of reading about all of this hatred and dischord :drool:

[TheInedibleHulk]

can't wait to get the cast off and ride instead of reading about all of this hatred and dischord :drool:

Me too, I was really hoping to take my V10 straight to the trail we are talking about as soon as I got it, but alas...

I go in on tuesday to get the big cast off, he originally said I would need another smaller cast but Im hoping to get out of there with a brace or something. Ive always healed ahead of schedule in the past, so hopefully it will be good news. When does yours come off?

[instigator34]

well blur, i'd start looking for your own place to ride. you won't be invited to any other trails built by rmd and friends, and if for some reason their current site is saved, i wouldn't show my face there, if i were you.

[DHDUDE]

Exactly. BLUR, as stated by instigator, you will NOT be welcome at the new trails. You are a smack-talking, jibber-jabberin', PUNK!

[DHblur]

well blur, i'd start looking for your own place to ride. you won't be invited to any other trails built by rmd and friends, and if for some reason their current site is saved, i wouldn't show my face there, if i were you.


Dude, I really don't want to be associated with trails built by RMD and friends. All it does is give people bad names.

Oh, and I shouldn't show my face there??? I shouldn't show my face there... keep in mind the people that had no respect for the land owner and ultimately got the trails shut down was RMD and friends. Those are the people that shouldn't show their faces up there. And hopefully they won't, because they only seem to be making things worse for the DH community around here. :nuts:

Frankly I'll be honest, I'm not as mad the individuals in this situation as I am about the whole sitiuation itself. I'm just so sick of places being shut down around here because of a lack of respect for landowners, property, liability etc. Gold hill was the same way. People lost respect for whose trails they were and the terrain that was up there and eventually and near fatal accident got the land owner fearful and he canned it. If people had just respected the type of riding that was up there, those who enjoyed, and had the skill level to ride it, would still have it. All I'm asking for is a little respect. If the DH community keeps taking a "my way or the highway" approach, we'll get no where.

[Renegade]

karma's a bitch i guess.

Or history repeats itself in the front range, huh Sean?

[Phil Winn]

Guys,

Let's stop flaming Instigator! The quote below is 100% accurate for those in the know. If it wasn't for the starters, then we wouldn't even have a place to ride in the first place. They originally got permission from multiple land owners, they built all the trails and jumps. Then they opened it up to several riders in the past few months. Something I've NEVER seen from a group. As for digging, I've watched these guys dig for over 2 years. 3 hrs of digging on dig day (was much appreciated) however does NOT give you the right to flame the guys that originally built and started these trails.

We can only work to make things better and pointing fingers is not a good start.

Quote
"4) Let's get the story straight here; people don't have the facts and are pointing fingers based on assumptions. Those trails exists on land that was once mined. From top to bottom the trails cross through many claim boundaries, i.e., several land owners are involved. For you to assume that these guys intentionally broke a trust is incorrect. In fact, where the bridges are built, is/was *thought* to be on another owners' land (and that owner doesn't care about the wood). The person we met is in fact *one* of the owners', where his boundaries begin and end are still in question. The bottom line is, no matter where his land resides, the trails cross it at some point, therefore his opinion and trust is of great significance to the preservation of those trails. But let's get this straight, people are making this sound like the builders blatantly and intentionally broke an agreement between one land owner...that's simply wrong.

5) With regards to the secrecy of the trails, as of recent months, this place has become much more "open door". I'm not one of the starters, but I've been riding there for years. And for a long time, this place was strongly protected. If you got a personal invite, that was all good, if you didn't, you were poaching. And legally speaking, this *is* private land; if you don't have an invite, you're trespassing. It wasn't until these last few months, did the "starters" adopt a much more open door policy. I think they realized that this territorial-my turf-your turf-pissing contest doesn't help our sport. I was glad to see it. Next thing you know, there were coordinated dig days out there and it was good to see the camaraderie. However, the publicity this has gotten combined with the finger pointing and flaming is probably going to set back the little good will that ever existed. Especially when these attacks are based on wrong assumptions. No doubt, this place is shutdown. But if on the remote chance this place is salvaged, it wouldn't surprise me if the open door attitude is reversed. Think before you flame and you should realize, that's not the right approach."

[DHDUDE]

I cannot believe what a disrespectful little bastard you are. As you stated yourself, the only reason you EVER got to ride those trails is because one of the RMD (which doesn't even exist anymore) guys invited you and showed you where they are. So far as not being associated with RMD and friends, you have no worries, the only association that there's any potential to be is for RMD and friends to give you the beating you're so desperately asking for. When you have your own riding spot that you've put countless hours into (you didn't do CRAP in Idaho Springs, that is a FACT) then you can talk, for now why don't you shut your punk trap.

[fly rider]

I just wanted to address RMD's relationship with CDCC. Shane meyer was captain of RMD and board chairman of the CDCC. Some members of the CDCC chose to volunteer hours at the dual course in Downieville. These members, including Shane and myself, honestly thought that there was a possibility that we would be allowed to build more dh trails at this location. I am not a member, nor have I ever been a member of RMD, but as far as I know RMD never gained finacially from the construction of that track. They only wanted a place to ride their bikes, as did CDCC members.

As for the trails on this thread, they would not even be there were it not for RMD, and for that we should all be grateful. Personally I consider RMD a very dedicated group of riders and trailbuilders. What happened here was unfortunate, they were only trying to build stuff that was fun to ride. I know that RMD was very grateful to the landowners for letting them use the land and what happened last Sunday was based on a misunderstand of property lines that have not been surveyed in years. To say that RMD intentionally disregarded the land owners wishes is unfair. Having said that, I think that resolution of the problem be left to RMD since they were the ones who had the original agreement with the land owner. I would encourage other parties to NOT call the land owner asking him to change his mind. This can only agrevate the situation.

[pdnwps]

No worries Fly Rider, very few people even know the name of the angered owner. And only two guys got his contact info on that day: one RMD rider and one non-RMD rider. Agreed, the owner should not be overwhelmed by phone calls and emails from varying people. RMD started this, so we'll let them resolve it.

[DHblur]

I cannot believe what a disrespectful little bastard you are. As you stated yourself, the only reason you EVER got to ride those trails is because one of the RMD (which doesn't even exist anymore) guys invited you and showed you where they are.

First of all, I find it funny that you mention the word disrespectful considering a case of disrespect is what got the trails shut down in the first place.

Second, did you not read the part in my first post where I put that it not only loses a riding spot for us but puts yet another black eye on the community. Like I said, I'm not as mad at RMD riders as I am at the whole situation. I just think that as the trail leaders persay, the RMD guys, could have done a better job of keeping the bridge building to a minimum and making sure everyone else knew those rules. This is all in order to keep our reputation at least decent. I feel very priveledged to have used those trails and I'm thankful for all the time and effort that went in up there(and yes I had a part of that). The fact remains that riding spots are going to continue just coming and going unless someone steps up demands some respect for other people and their requests. If that never happens we'll just keep running around in the same circles we have been for the past 3 years.

Take for example, Arbor. The reason it has lasted so long is because, for the most part(with the exception of a few grom mistakes) the riders in this area have never given the city a reason to shut it down. It is always kept clean, we don't do things that make the neighbors angry and as a result we have had a consistent long lasting riding spot that has grown the riding community. We have shown respect for the area we have and in return the city respects us. If you respect what is given to you, respect will be given back. Going against a land owners' wishes is not a good way to gain respect.

[DHDUDE]

Maybe instead of disrespectful I should have said backstabbing. Once again, you fail to respect the fact that the guys you're so readily hacking on are the only reason you ever saw or rode those trails. I can tell you that mistake won't happen again. You say you're not as mad at RMD riders as the whole situation? For the record, nobody gives a crap who you're mad at JUNIOR. The guys you're ripping on have been dealing with this since you were still breast feeding (probably 'til you were 12 or so, right?), a lot longer than the 3 years you refer to. Furthermore, you say that you've done some building up there but 2 days of work doesn't even count, we've been building at Idaho for almost 5 years!!!

I'm not gonna debate with you about Lake Arbor, but if you think it's still open because of what a bunch of Saints everyone has been, you're fooling yourself. At the Lake Arbor I go to there is trash everywhere, people pissing in the fields, weed smokin' and huge holes everywhere. Just what every neighbor wants!!!

[zstyle_22]

Yo dhdude you really need to relax on the blur and focus on what he is saying. He IS appreciative of the fact he was shown the trails, but he is upset that the people in charge did not appreciate the trails enough to consider what if? What if the land owner shows up? What if he cares? What happens then. I am dissapointed that such a valuable resource was shut down because of irresponsible actions by people who have been riding since dhblur has been sucking on his mamas nipple. I think that is what he meant.

[COmtbiker12]

Maybe instead of disrespectful I should have said backstabbing. Once again, you fail to respect the fact that the guys you're so readily hacking on are the only reason you ever saw or rode those trails. I can tell you that mistake won't happen again. You say you're not as mad at RMD riders as the whole situation? For the record, nobody gives a crap who you're mad at JUNIOR. The guys you're ripping on have been dealing with this since you were still breast feeding (probably 'til you were 12 or so, right?), a lot longer than the 3 years you refer to. Furthermore, you say that you've done some building up there but 2 days of work doesn't even count, we've been building at Idaho for almost 5 years!!!

I'm not gonna debate with you about Lake Arbor, but if you think it's still open because of what a bunch of Saints everyone has been, you're fooling yourself. At the Lake Arbor I go to there is trash everywhere, people pissing in the fields, weed smokin' and huge holes everywhere. Just what every neighbor wants!!!



Take a breath... its going to be alright. Flaming about the issue isn't going to help anything or anybody. The only thing that I think dhblur was trying to say is that he's agrivated that people were irresponsible and went beyond the limits of what they should have. I haven't ever ridden these trails but just the fact that they were there is pretty sweet, but I think the point of the matter is simply that people just went too far whether knowingly or not.

[DHDUDE]

I am way past the point of being "P.C." here and I'm definitely not trying to "help" anything or anybody as you suggest. I'm telling all the secret smack talkers on this website that if you aren't one of the people who started these trails, you are in no position to criticize. Period. Furthermore, if you do want to talk about someone (especially as specifically as you have), have the respect, guts, whatever, to do it in person instead of cowering behind your keyboard like you're some loser in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (excellent film).

[Transcend]

Wow - you guys are pretty unbelieveable. Glad i left boulder for canada, where we don't have retarded issues like this.

You guys all need to leave the 303 for awhile, boulder in particular... 9 square miles surrounded by reality really does fit.

It's a friggin trail, not your wives. Share the love and quit bitching.

[snowskilz]

Transcend was right by saying share the love and quit bitching. Mtn biking is not a secret society. We all should share what we have. I personally never rode the trail in question but i was invited up there. Heard about how sick it was and how you could jump over a mine shaft bla bla bla.

i have said this before and i will say this again... I am originally from Pa and where i was from every local was glad to show you "their" spot. Out here is not like that and we need to work on some comradery. If we dont get along and work twoards a common goal then we will never have a trail to ride other then keystone.

Dream4est is trying his hardest to get something going on his land in the same area if ya wanna help out go dig with him. I would def suggest that for now. As soon as i get over this darn pneumonia i will be up there shovel in one hand chain saw in the other

[EATYOURFACE]

maybe you dudes should get off your computer go outside and build some trials..(and then not share them with anybody)

[Mtnrider]

Transcend was right by saying share the love and quit bitching. Mtn biking is not a secret society. We all should share what we have. I personally never rode the trail in question but i was invited up there. Heard about how sick it was and how you could jump over a mine shaft bla bla bla.

i have said this before and i will say this again... I am originally from Pa and where i was from every local was glad to show you "their" spot. Out here is not like that and we need to work on some comradery. If we dont get along and work twoards a common goal then we will never have a trail to ride other then keystone.

Dream4est is trying his hardest to get something going on his land in the same area if ya wanna help out go dig with him. I would def suggest that for now. As soon as i get over this darn pneumonia i will be up there shovel in one hand chain saw in the other

Well said, I know that the RMD guys feel the same as you, that's why they have had the open door policy at the said trails, which was way cool of them. Talking smack about the people who allowed us to ride there is lame, so lame it's not even funny. To each his own I guess but I'm appreciative of the time I had there and it was because of the RMD guys, thanks!

[The Lazian]

.word.

[DHblur]

I agree with mtnrider and snowskilz fully. The original reason I made the first post was to first make people aware and to not ride up there and second, to use the situation as an example of what not to do... nothing more. Unfortunately as a result of the second portion of that, some finger pointing was made and it got way too personal way too quick. A large portion of our community has the same problem as the people that built those bridges and I just wanted to use the RMD guys as a perfect example of it. As a whole, we all need to be need to be more long sighted and less selfish and take a look what we are doing before we act and make all of us look stupid.

I will say this again since no one seems to have noticed it thus far: I feel very priveledged to have ridden there and thank everyone that was involved in the foundation and upkeep of those trails. But for future reference just remember to be respectful of the situation and think things through before you hurt such a small community.

I'm sorry this got as personal as it did and I'll probably just delete this thread here in a while but before I do I think we can all agree that we owe it to the land owner to reveg the trails and take down all the bridges should he allow us to do so. I know Lee has already looked into that and hopefully he will keep us updated. We all enjoyed the trails and we all deserve to put in the work to shut them down.

[DHDUDE]

Who is Lee? The "RMD" guys and myself are looking into what we're going to do with this situation and it would be much appreciated if anyone who is thinking about contacting the land owner or taking ANY further action would contact us first. Thanks. I (James) can be reached to discuss this matter at (303) 884-7404.

[DHblur]

Lee is one of the two people that was up there that day that got the land owner's number. He is a great guy with awesome people skills and knows how to market himself and his cause well. If I were to choose one person as a voice for all the riders up there(not saying that I have that authority) it would be Lee or Matt Thompson. Believe me, you want Lee to help you out.

[TheInedibleHulk]

Yeah Lee is a great ambassabor and definately will be an asset to your cause, you can get his contact info off of http://www.leelikesbikes.com. Best of luck, and as I said before, if a crew is needed to go remove stunts or plants trees or whatever I'm here to help, just shoot me a PM.

[DHDUDE]

DHBlur, as with most of what you've said you are wrong again. Lee was not among the people who were up there "that day". I would love for Lee or MT to assist with this cause but I'm sick of your bull****. Instead of just making things up, why don't you get your facts from one of the people who was really there, such as myself? God you are annoying.

[DHblur]

Dude settle down. I'm just going what I have been told. I heard that Lee had gotten the number from the land owner that day. I'm simply trying to help the situation with suggestions on where to look for help. That wasn't a "you're wrong" personal attack post.

[neversummersnow]

Okay, everybody settle down. Go look in the mirror and decide what have you really done to help the problem.

Brendon, be quite....

RMD and Crew, just realize this is like one big Italian familiy fight, we all love each other and understand we're all frustrated here.

Look, things could be worse. You could be hurt.

[bpatterson6]

The whole deal is a friggin drag. I never even got invited to said trails.
and now, I will never have the chance to be invited to said trails.
I guarantee I wouldnt have disrespected. :angry:

[dcamp29]

hey neversummer, where are your trails? can i come ride with you? i won't tell...promise.


i know where they are... and ill take cash or interesting trades for them.

and jeff, its more like seven people, but they only know some of them.

[DHblur]

Alright, so I was talking with Rob Sears yesterday out at Arbor and he mentioned the idea of hind sight and I just wanted to take a quick time to try and settle things up here.

First of all, I really did not mean for this thread to get as personal as it did. The original post was merely to use this situation as an example of how all of us need to respect the land and priveleges we have and keep within the boundaries that are set for us. Not saying that I blame RMD for losing the spot or any of that, because it was their trails to begin with but I meant it purely for future reference so that hopefully we can one day have a consistent spot that everyone can have fun riding for a long time. I think the problem just quickly escalated from an overall broad issue to personal flamings of who can ride what and then the thread was screwed from there. I didn't intend for that to happen.

Second, I want to apologize for how personal it did get and to all of the people I did offend. We're all frustrated here, I just happen to have the worst anger management issues out of all of us, that's all. But really, I thank RMD for the trails that I got to ride for the last two winters as they were crucial to my succesful race season last year and the training I got on them this year will help for this season as well.

That's all, I just wanted to cool off this thread a little bit and hopefully from now on, it will be used only for updates on what is happening with cleaning the trails up and all of that.

[dream4est]

hey if anyone interested wants to build on my property give me a ring. its 7 miles west of idaho springs. its about 16 acres with shuttle road and south facing. i am looking to work with local riders in a club format. i own the land and it has varying slopes, natural features and roads. i realized what has happened and would like to offer my land but more responsible usage and a legitimate organization of riders will be priorities. i understand how it feels when a land owner changes his mind so i sympathize with the current plight of most local riders. i dont really care about the past so anyone who is interested i am down to help.

im not looking to make money off locals. i am planning on running a business in the future but it is not related to the possibility of a local club using my property. maybe i will ask such a club to lease the land and maybe i will not. it depends on what type of discussions we have and if people could band together to do this.

if you post here i may not reply quickly so call if you have any questions.

mark caminiti
720-635-7429

[COmtbiker12]

hey if anyone interested wants to build on my property give me a ring. its 7 miles west of idaho springs. its about 16 acres with shuttle road and south facing. i am looking to work with local riders in a club format. i own the land and it has varying slopes, natural features and roads. i realized what has happened and would like to offer my land but more responsible usage and a legitimate organization of riders will be priorities. i understand how it feels when a land owner changes his mind so i sympathize with the current plight of most local riders. i dont really care about the past so anyone who is interested i am down to help.

im not looking to make money off locals. i am planning on running a business in the future but it is not related to the possibility of a local club using my property. maybe i will ask such a club to lease the land and maybe i will not. it depends on what type of discussions we have and if people could band together to do this.

if you post here i may not reply quickly so call if you have any questions.

mark caminiti
720-635-7429
Mark how's the building going up there? When are you going to have some weekend build days? I'd be happy to come help but need to know when.

[Motionboy2]

I have been to the trails. I was there one day and spent half the time moving dirt and the other half taking pictures of those with bikes. I was so psyched to see trails again and to see motivated riders out there making it happen. I must say that as impressive as it was to see bridges out there it did put a bad taste in my mouth, because most of the time built wooden structures of any kind are the things that scare landowners. Not to mention that most were attached right to trees and there are not many people that will stand for that.
I have a lot of respect for those that put together the trails, who networked the arrangements and for those who built what was there. I would love to be involved more with the building process. As always I say, just contact me and I will be there with a shovel. You don't want me digging by myself though because...well it will be big, I won't be riding it and you will be, with me standing holding my camera.

I think rather than getting mad we should look at the opportunities and lessons that this provides. I too am from PA and I know of SO many trails that people built and took me on. I think that all trails will continue with this trend of being secret, blowing up and then getting shut down until there is a consistant riding spot for everyone.
Maybe Marks land is the place it needs to happen. I don't know what Marks plans are for his business. If he is planning on running shuttles, how good the shuttle road is. What the grade of the land is, what natural features will make it good, not to mention what kind of input he is willing to allow others to have. I would love to hear more about the land Mark. I would love to hear that you plan to have a series of trails ranging from novice to Pro, something that is accessable every day of the week and has south facing land. Something that maybe has a charge, but that is a minimal charge without the requirement of taking classes everytime you go. Mark you could hold the key to keeping DH alive in Colorado if you play your cards right.

Anyhow, everyone calm down, let the anger go and come up with some ideas as to how to fix the situation...for everyone...

I would post some pix, but I don't want to get yelled at (they are cool pix though :) )

[fondigley]

I never made it out there, but heard about that place many times. That really sucks. The only decent riding I've done on the front range was Gold Hill and that closed a few weeks after I moved out here.

Let's get Mark's spot going. Plan on spending some time up there in the next few months breaking in trails, that are nonexistent at this time. But sounds like some good terrain.

[ladge]

Transcend was right by saying share the love and quit bitching. Mtn biking is not a secret society. We all should share what we have. I personally never rode the trail in question but i was invited up there. Heard about how sick it was and how you could jump over a mine shaft bla bla bla.

i have said this before and i will say this again... I am originally from Pa and where i was from every local was glad to show you "their" spot. Out here is not like that and we need to work on some comradery. If we dont get along and work twoards a common goal then we will never have a trail to ride other then keystone.



With all due respect, that's easy for you and Transcend to say since you haven't ridden that trail for near ten years. With the other recent DH spots that have been closed, pretty soon the only decent DH around we'll have to pay for. :mumble:

That trail (and others) existed for years because it was kept on the down low. Broadcasting the existence of a place like that just means one thing - eventually someone will show up there that shouldn't, and it'll get f***ing shut down, as the recent trend proves. The more people that know about it, the better the chance of some d-head ruining it eventually.

This is more depressing than I know how to describe - anyone want to buy a nice DH bike for cheap? Effin bullsheeeyite.

[EVILTWIN]

The rest of these posts talk about fixing the problem. You just want to sell your bike? Sure, what is it? Oh sorry, no bullits. TOOLBOX!

[ladge]

The rest of these posts talk about fixing the problem. You just want to sell your bike? Sure, what is it? Oh sorry, no bullits. TOOLBOX!


The other posts were about fixing the problem? :confused: I don't see it that way, looked like a bunch of people bashing each other, save the few that talked about offering some appeasement to the landowner by doing some repairs to the property. I don't care what things are like in Canada or Pennsylvania (or anywhere else), because obviously this is Colorado and things are different.

Here's a suggestion for fixing the problem - keep obscure trails secret, it's the best way to make sure they don't get closed down.

Selling off my bike was sarcasm...

[Hydride]

Braaaaap :thumb:

[snowskilz]

I don't care what things are like in Canada or Pennsylvania (or anywhere else), because obviously this is Colorado and things are different.

Here's a suggestion for fixing the problem - keep obscure trails secret, it's the best way to make sure they don't get closed down.


you should care because obviously there they are doing SOMETHING right!

Making the trail impossible to ride(for all) is not the answer. working with land owners and the open space committees is. When the time comes where there actually is a legit dh trail all will be happy, until then we need to work to gether and make it happen

[ladge]

you should care because obviously there they are doing SOMETHING right!

Making the trail impossible to ride(for all) is not the answer. working with land owners and the open space committees is. When the time comes where there actually is a legit dh trail all will be happy, until then we need to work to gether and make it happen


Yeah, they're doing something right. I wish things worked like that here, but can you tell me even one example where it has? I can't. The last three significant DH places that have been shut down were due to either people being there that probably shouldn't ( too many people knowing about it ), or someone going to the media and telling them about a pirate trail ( again, too many people knowing about it ).

I'm not saying don't let ANYONE ride these trails, just the ones who aren't responsible. At least try to make sure someone is really down with riding before taking them on one of those trails.

This may be pessimistic, but I really don't have much faith in the open space committee - where's our DH trail they were supposedly looking at building up by Dakota Ridge/Green Mtn to alleviate some of the shuttling pressure? And I'm not willing to take very many people to the privately owned spots I know because I have too much respect for the land owner to bring someone there who will f**k it up or try to sue them if they get hurt.

[DHblur]

You know, I wasn't going to post much more on here but I must say that ladge does have the right call in this one. We do have to realize it's different here, no matter how much we dislike it. There was an article in I think last month's Bike magazine about a super famous freeride/dh spot in Kamloops, BC. In that article it talks about the some ridiculous amount of trails that cross private property and the large amount of trespassing that is and has been going on in the past few years. However, it is just now becoming a point of concern and not even a huge issue at that.

If this was the case in Colorado, the trails wouldn't have survived any time at all, as is the case with Idaho Springs. I think one of the biggest issues surrounding it is that land just isn't as precious in Canada as it is here. Have you looked at the population and its density in Canada, even in areas such as Kamloops that are populated? It is nothing compared to one of the most rapidly growing areas in the US: Denver and the front range. Land is simply too highly prized here.

It's unfortunate but that's just the way it is and we're gonna have to deal with it until we are more widely recognized as a legitimate and responsible group. I think that Kent Setsma and his gang may have a good thing going with the open space deal. That would be huge!!!! So anyone that can(unfortunately not me) should show up to the meeting tomorrow at the Denver Spoke. Then maybe we can finally take a step in the right direction and hopefully one day get to where places like Cali, and Canada and everywhere but here are.

Sorry for the long post.

[Transcend]

You know, I was gonna stay out of this, but I think i shoudl way in now.

I live in boulder for just over 4 years. I rode trails that have since been closed. It is sad to hear of them closing, but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with too many people in this case (gold h ill did...that town has some angry angry people living in it).

This time it was a case of irresponsible trail building. Maybe it wasn't even his landm who knows. He did however ask not to have them there, and his property had part of the trail on it. Were someone to crash and sue, chances are he would have had to pay large legal defense bills for an accident on a stunt that wasn't even (possibly) on his property. If you cannot see his side of things, even if he was dead wrong, you are blind.

Working with landowners is the key to keeping trails open, making them private and not allowing others to ride them is not. I know all about the trail issues and multiuse issues in Boulder and here in Canada. We have an easier time here due to the lack of people not wanting to take responsibility for their own actions, but we still work with landowners and local govt to make things happen.

Full disclosure and cooperation is the key, not privacy, piracy, exclusion and finger pointing.

[snowskilz]

Full disclosure and cooperation is the key, not privacy, piracy, exclusion and finger pointing.

:stupid:

[fly rider]

There was an interesting post on NSMB.com the other day about loose cannons having to work within the system on the North Shore. Sure there are a ton of trails on the North Shore but they would not have survived if it were not for the NSMBA, a club that maintains all the trails there. Now, I know the CDCC is not going to build a bunch of trails the first year, but if we could get just one I think it would be packed all the time. Everyone here knows our sport is not going to just fade away and everyone here also knows that our user group is more dedicated to trail building than any of the other user groups. I think if JeffCo were to unleash us on a piece of land they would be astounded by how many people would show up to build. I suspect that JeffCo already knows that one trail is not the solution, and that if we show them what a huge success it will be then we will have the doors opened for a lot more.

[DHblur]

Well I wouldn't expect Jeffco to just unleash us up there. Yes they may give us the oppurtunity to build a trail up there but I'm sure it will be a one or two trail policy and will be structured in much the same manner as it takes to get a new trail at a ski resort where everything has to be approved in some form or another. The understanding needs to be made that if Jeffco says no unorganized digging and spidering of trails, that's the way it needs to be. The first time someone shows up and builds bridges, spiders trails or anything like that, our cause will be dead and we will lose any trust given to us by the biggest land provider around here.

Like Transcend said, cooperation will be key.

[ladge]

Full disclosure and cooperation is the key, not privacy, piracy, exclusion and finger pointing.

I like hearing these ideas somewhat, but then again it chaps my arse that things couldn't be that simple here as well, after all I think we just all want to ride. I'm sure if the people who built the stunts could turn time back, we'd all rather have the trail to ride stunt free than no trail like we have now.

My only question maybe you or sskilz can shed some light on - how does full disclosure and cooperation protect against any landowner liability for someone who gets hurt on their property and wants to sue? How does that prevent someone who doesn't know the rules and regs the landowner wants followed, and take up trail improvement on their own? The only way I can figure, is by only showing trails to people who are responsible for their own actions, check with other riders on the trail, and won't run to the newspaper trying to get some coverage for whatever reasons.

And yes, the I.S. trail appears to have been closed due to stunt building. But that trail existed for years without the stunts. Too me, it seems like more and more people were finding out about it until someone found out about it and decided to perform "track editor" on the trail and effed it for all of us. Maybe if people were more selective as to who they shared the trail with, that wouldn't have happened, but I guess I can't really prove that.

Like everyone is saying, no reason to kick a dead horse for bucking...I guess some of us just view things differently...I remember when trail closures and such was something California and other places had to deal with and I felt lucky, now the trend has infiltrated CO.

[fly rider]

I'm not suggesting that we be unsupervised building whatever we want. I would not expect any giant roads gaps. For that reason stuff like IS will have to continue. What I hope is that when we are offered something to do that benefits our user group that it turns out to be a success and we can show JeffCo that we are willing to work for trails of our own.

[dexter]

man this sucks ass, everything godd is getting shut down in colorado from the shops to the trials im going to cry

[EVILTWIN]

I can only imagine. A run built for DH on the front range....probably something wide open...bermed and some 30ft tucked in the breeze tables. Would almost be able to ride year round, no uphill traffic...

[TheInedibleHulk]

I can only imagine. A run built for DH on the front range....probably something wide open...bermed and some 30ft tucked in the breeze tables. Would almost be able to ride year round, no uphill traffic...

It's in the works. It looks like we have a pretty solid and dedicated ally in Open Space now, and getting this done is his number one agenda. Keep your ears open, hopefully there will be more developments in the near future, but it sounds like alot of progress on the administrative level has already been made.

[Transcend]

I like hearing these ideas somewhat, but then again it chaps my arse that things couldn't be that simple here as well, after all I think we just all want to ride. I'm sure if the people who built the stunts could turn time back, we'd all rather have the trail to ride stunt free than no trail like we have now.

My only question maybe you or sskilz can shed some light on - how does full disclosure and cooperation protect against any landowner liability for someone who gets hurt on their property and wants to sue? How does that prevent someone who doesn't know the rules and regs the landowner wants followed, and take up trail improvement on their own? The only way I can figure, is by only showing trails to people who are responsible for their own actions, check with other riders on the trail, and won't run to the newspaper trying to get some coverage for whatever reasons.

And yes, the I.S. trail appears to have been closed due to stunt building. But that trail existed for years without the stunts. Too me, it seems like more and more people were finding out about it until someone found out about it and decided to perform "track editor" on the trail and effed it for all of us. Maybe if people were more selective as to who they shared the trail with, that wouldn't have happened, but I guess I can't really prove that.

Like everyone is saying, no reason to kick a dead horse for bucking...I guess some of us just view things differently...I remember when trail closures and such was something California and other places had to deal with and I felt lucky, now the trend has infiltrated CO.

I am no lawyer, so obviously I cannot give you the answers to this )hell, I didn't even sleep at a holiday inn express last night), but i can give some insight.

Full disclosure and cooperation with owners guarantees that this sort of building won't happen. Freelance trail building and construction CANNOT happen. Everything that is built must be done with full diclosure to the landowers and their aproval. In the end, it is still private property, if he gets drunk one das and says everyboy off - for good - then it's his choice. Maybe this guy just got fed up, who knows.

As for rider education, signage goes a long way to helping this (and can also help to legitimize the area). Beeing selective and acting like outlaws will only help to push our sport further into the background, and will in NO way legitimize trail use which we deserve. Hell horseback riders get their own damn trails, why can't we?

[DHDUDE]

A good person to speak with regarding this entire topic would be Brent T., the guy who started, built and maintains the Bootleg Canyon trails in Boulder City, NV. I've been there before and just got back from another trip yesterday and the trails there are super techy and fun. Brent has done a brilliant job of working with the locals and getting them to look at our sport as a benefit to the community/economy in Boulder City. And so far as there not being any big features on these new front range trails, forget that!!! 30+ foot doubles, huge concrete lips, and roads gaps(Kent) are there for the taking in Boulder City (and anywhere in Canada too just for the record) for anyone who wants to give them a shot. It should be no different here.

[dowend]

Didn't Brent T almost go to jail for building the trails in Boulder City? (Seems like I read that somewhere...)

[fly rider]

JeffCo actually has talked to Brent and is impressed with Bootleg Canyon. I was there about four years ago when he was just getting things going, I hadn't realized that he had built anything that big. Sweet.

[downhill24/7]

wood is super sick, wat r u talking about, its definatelly dumb to do it in the wrong place without a doubt, ive put in some backbreaking hours with wood, and noone likes it, noone. i swear, if there is any possible way for some pussy ass xc rider to get there he'll bitch about how scetch and unsafe it is and just act cool and go around it, go where noone else does, where noone would think to go and dont bring anyone to ur spot, maybe bring one or 2 uthr ppl, make them help u work, ive found that when you go to secluded places wood lasts if u keep it anonnymous, also if they help build they wont want to see it torn down so they'll keep theyre mouths shut. i live in cali and im moving to boulder,, if i can get wood to last in cali then surely it could last in colorado, just dont be so ignorant about it

[DHblur]

wood is super sick, wat r u talking about, its definatelly dumb to do it in the wrong place without a doubt, ive put in some backbreaking hours with wood, and noone likes it, noone. i swear, if there is any possible way for some pussy ass xc rider to get there he'll bitch about how scetch and unsafe it is and just act cool and go around it, go where noone else does, where noone would think to go and dont bring anyone to ur spot, maybe bring one or 2 uthr ppl, make them help u work, ive found that when you go to secluded places wood lasts if u keep it anonnymous, also if they help build they wont want to see it torn down so they'll keep theyre mouths shut. i live in cali and im moving to boulder,, if i can get wood to last in cali then surely it could last in colorado, just dont be so ignorant about it



HUH??????? I got lost somewhere?

[TheInedibleHulk]

wood is super sick, wat r u talking about, its definatelly dumb to do it in the wrong place without a doubt, ive put in some backbreaking hours with wood, and noone likes it, noone. i swear, if there is any possible way for some pussy ass xc rider to get there he'll bitch about how scetch and unsafe it is and just act cool and go around it, go where noone else does, where noone would think to go and dont bring anyone to ur spot, maybe bring one or 2 uthr ppl, make them help u work, ive found that when you go to secluded places wood lasts if u keep it anonnymous, also if they help build they wont want to see it torn down so they'll keep theyre mouths shut. i live in cali and im moving to boulder,, if i can get wood to last in cali then surely it could last in colorado, just dont be so ignorant about it

You should probably learn how to speak english at some point.

[SkaredShtles]

You should probably learn how to speak english at some point.
:stupid:

Communication is the first step, and 24/7 is apparently still crawling.

-S.S.-