View Full Version : Was Giuliana Sgrena intentionally targeted by US Troops?
I am leaning towards yes. I also think someone is going to be in trouble....for missing their target.
$tinkle
03-09-2005, 10:45 AM
i've been tracking this, & here's what i found:
first, her claim:
A Humvee appeared, and suddenly the car carrying her came under fire. "It rained bullets. We didn't have any way of knowing where they were coming from. They fired for a few minutes. It was the worst thing I have lived through."if this is true, why did no bullets find her, & only one find the SS agent who saved her? (single shot to the temple).
also, i went to see how the italian press is covering it here: http://www.repubblica.it/index.html. on the main page, look for "FOTO: l'auto colpita" & a 6 photo gallery appears which seems to give exhaustive photos of all bullet impacts. I counted 4, or maybe 5. having been on a firing range multiple times, i know too well what 300 - 400 rounds sounds like, & what it looks like down range. this car is either not the car she was in, or she's simply mistaken.
recall this incident happened at night, & the us military was not given a head's up as to her arrival.
i don't see how we could have targeted her, but i'm willing to hear a reasonable argument
Damn, I left my tin foil hat at home :p
gorogod
03-09-2005, 12:03 PM
I'm with $tinkle on this one. If we were going after her then she would'nt be talking right now. She stated that there was a rain of bullets.....That car would've have been cut up like swiss cheese if it was raining bullets. This is standard that if a car doesn't stop or slow down before the check point that we fire warning shots, then if it stills comes take out the engine. Bullets can deflect off of parts of the car and enter the passenger area. If this is the car she was in then it wasn't raining bullets. I would say it was a deflection that killed the agent or a stray bullet off target.
A Predator firing a Hellfire missile = :dead:
No need for involving troopers.
.... i went to see how the italian press is covering it here: http://www.repubblica.it/index.html. on the main page, look for "FOTO: l'auto colpita" & a 6 photo gallery appears which seems to give exhaustive photos of all bullet impacts.
I don't know about you but I'd much rather check out the far more informative and interesting, "Daytona Beach cinquecentomila in moto FOTO" section on the same page...
Hubba-hubba!
Linky: http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/speciali/bikeweek/reuters59215690903182827_big.jpg
:devil:
Changleen
03-09-2005, 01:13 PM
The US said her car was travelling at 100mph, nearly loosing control as it hydroplaned through large puddles and that the soldiers had no idea it was coming. She said they were doing 25mph, having previously passed through a series of checkpoints. Someone is lying. However I find it quite unlikely that she was deliberatly targeted.
$tinkle
03-09-2005, 01:45 PM
and a broader question still:
is italy funding terrorism?Sgrena’s release was further overshadowed by reports in Italian newspapers that the government of Silvio Berlusconi, the prime minister, had agreed to pay a ransom of between $6m (£3.2m) and $8m. When two relief workers, Simona Torretta and Simona Pari, were freed last year, intelligence sources said the ransom paid was $5m.timesonline (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1513034,00.html)
at least we are 2 degrees removed w/ our dependence on saudi oil -- sheesh!
fluff
03-09-2005, 02:07 PM
I'm with $tinkle on this one. If we were going after her then she would'nt be talking right now.
I'm not saying it was intentional but the logic that the US troops woulda got her if they were trying begs the question why is bin Laden still at large?
$tinkle
03-09-2005, 02:12 PM
dood: UBL has been long-captured, & will be used in the next election for condi (it wasn't close enough to use him this go around)
either that or we killed him in tora-bora like ann coulter (one of my eFriends) told me
Changleen
03-09-2005, 02:16 PM
and a broader question still:
is italy funding terrorism?timesonline (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1513034,00.html)
at least we are 2 degrees removed w/ our dependence on saudi oil -- sheesh!The US still directly funds the IRA, and Israel (did you know that Israel has killed 25 Palestinians during the current 'ceasefire'?), as well as giving money to Egypt, Syria, and so on. I'm glad being '2 degrees' removed from knowlingly paying the Saudi Government is somehow OK for you though. :nopity:
I'm not saying it was intentional but the logic that the US troops woulda got her if they were trying begs the question why is bin Laden still at large?
This is a reach even for you to try and make a "logic" leap from one to the other. If they were trying to get her, it would have been a simple matter to put a bullet in her head once the car was stopped along with the rest of the folks in the car.
As with most things I suspect that the truth lies somewhere between the two stories.
Changleen
03-09-2005, 02:19 PM
dood: UBL has been long-captured, & will be used in the next election for condi (it wasn't close enough to use him this go around)
either that or we killed him in tora-bora like ann coulter (one of my eFriends) told meNobody was killed at Tora Bora except for a bunch of peasent shepherd locals. That's because you got your intelligence from a wanted local warlord who had a beef with the Tora Bora locals. AQ was never there. Everyone knows this, except, apparantly, the Americans.
Changleen
03-09-2005, 02:22 PM
This is a reach even for you to try and make a "logic" leap from one to the other. If they were trying to get her, it would have been a simple matter to put a bullet in her head once the car was stopped along with the rest of the folks in the car.
As with most things I suspect that the truth lies somewhere between the two stories.I think he was actually trying to point out that the assumption that the US military are incapable of messing up made by the previous posters was not nessacarily true.
$tinkle
03-09-2005, 02:25 PM
The US still directly funds the IRA, and Israel (did you know that Israel has killed 25 Palestinians during the current 'ceasefire'?), as well as giving money to Egypt, Syria, and so on. I'm glad being '2 degrees' removed from knowlingly paying the Saudi Government is somehow OK for you though. :nopity:US Funds Palestinian Authority (http://truthnews.com/month/2005020052.htm)
(elapsed time: 34 attoseconds)
fluff
03-09-2005, 02:29 PM
I think he was actually trying to point out that the assumption that the US military are incapable of messing up made by the previous posters was not nessacarily true.
Indeed and I did not expect to snare such a big fish with such obvious bait.. :cool:
fluff
03-09-2005, 02:30 PM
US Funds Palestinian Authority (http://truthnews.com/month/2005020052.htm)
(elapsed time: 34 attoseconds)
Are you suggesting that the US funds terrorists?!? :eek:
$tinkle
03-09-2005, 02:34 PM
Nobody was killed at Tora Bora except for a bunch of peasent shepherd locals. That's because you got your intelligence from a wanted local warlord who had a beef with the Tora Bora locals. AQ was never there. Everyone knows this, except, apparantly, the Americans.
How bin Laden got away (http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0304/p01s03-wosc.htm)
US Concludes Bin Laden Escaped at Tora Bora Fight (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A62618-2002Apr16¬Found=true)
show me yours
Changleen
03-09-2005, 02:55 PM
How bin Laden got away (http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0304/p01s03-wosc.htm)
US Concludes Bin Laden Escaped at Tora Bora Fight (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A62618-2002Apr16¬Found=true)
show me yoursGeneral Tommy Franks also stated, "We don't know to this day whether Mr. bin Laden was at Tora Bora,"
$tinkle
03-09-2005, 03:45 PM
General Tommy Franks also stated, "We don't know to this day whether Mr. bin Laden was at Tora Bora,"taking on your spurious charge that AQ was never at tora bora, here's what he said on pbs's frontline on june 12, 2002:frontline:
What was your assessment of the Tora Bora [operation]?
gen franks:
Tora Bora, in my view, was a successful operation. There was much speculation about who was in Tora Bora -- all of the speculation [was] after the fact. Looking back, I think that we had a sense that there were enemy formations in the Tora Bora complex. Historically, in Afghanistan, there are about a half-dozen places where outsiders, non-Afghanis, aggregate. ...
In early December ... it became obvious that the opposition forces with whom we were working in the vicinity of Jalalabad and down toward Tora Bora themselves don't like Al Qaeda at all, didn't like the Taliban at all. [They] had a desire to take their forces, which were substantial at that time, and move them on a sweep operation through Tora Bora. [They] put together an operation. We supported that operation.
I think it was a good operation. Many people have said, "Well, gosh, you know bin Laden got away." I have yet to see anything that proves bin Laden or whoever was there. That's not to say they weren't, but I've not seen proof that they were there. A great many Taliban and Al Qaeda [may have] lost their lives in Tora Bora. Some have said, "You just ran all of them over into Pakistan." At that particular time, our work with President Musharraf and with his forces along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border was also another very positive piece of this operation.
In my view, the Pakistanis did a whale of a job supporting our operations, and in fact providing what we would call in military parlance "an amble" along that border, so that these forces were being policed up as they would try to exfiltrate from Tora Bora. ...
Those who would enlarge the story to indicate that there were some operational issues -- shouldn't have been done, or could have been done differently -- those who would argue that, don't have a very great appreciation of the factors of mission and what an enemy force can look like, and what role terrain has to play in that the timing of an operation. Knowing that, at the end of the day, this is Afghanistan, and the Afghans wanted to move on this operation, I look at Tora Bora as a favorable operation.
As we speak now, some few weeks ago, we placed forces back in there to continue or not continue, but to move through some of the areas we'd been through before, to be sure we hadn't missed anything, and to be sure that Al Qaeda had not reintroduced themselves back into that area. So that area remains a concern to us. But Tora Bora was a good operation.
and here's what you said almost a week agoAfter reading Toshi's comments it seems that once again you are happy to cease on any justification for your ridiculous prejudices and discrimination. Maybe this'll teach you to look at both sides of an argument before coming to a decision in future? I doubt it though...{{{ hugs }}}
Changleen
03-09-2005, 04:12 PM
taking on your spurious charge that AQ was never at tora bora, here's what he said on pbs's frontline on june 12, 2002:
and here's what you said almost a week ago{{{ hugs }}}Adding or detracting what exactly? Your post said the same thing. In fact it was even worse -
I have yet to see anything that proves bin Laden or whoever was there. That's not to say they weren't, but I've not seen proof that they were there. A great many Taliban and Al Qaeda [may have] lost their lives in Tora Bora.
Face it, the US spent a **** load of cash, time and energy killing shepherds for no good reason. They even called in the British Army (recognised worldwide as being good at mountain type stuff) to try and help them find AQ, and the Brits concluded they weren't there either.
Shall we get back on topic now? Who do you think is lying? The US or the Italian bitch?
Indeed and I did not expect to snare such a big fish with such obvious bait.. :cool:
Whatever.... you are becoming Chanqleen lite. Just another frother for the left.
Silver
03-09-2005, 06:16 PM
Hey, at this point I'm just happy they didn't rape the body of the Italian they killed, filmed it, and put it on Jeff Gannon's website.
Can anyone else tell that my expectations have been lowered, or is that my imagination?
fluff
03-10-2005, 04:11 AM
Whatever.... you are becoming Chanqleen lite. Just another frother for the left.
Damn, and I was aiming to be the anti-N8...
gorogod
03-10-2005, 06:57 AM
I'm not saying it was intentional but the logic that the US troops woulda got her if they were trying begs the question why is bin Laden still at large?
bin laden's following is a little bit bigger than hers.....what I was refering to is that fact that she was in the open and if we knew she was in the car and we were targeting her, then the car would've looked a lot different.....but we weren't targeting her, so that is why the cars looks as it does.....don't read in to what people write....these are two different stories.....
fluff
03-10-2005, 07:02 AM
bin laden's following is a little bit bigger than hers.....what I was refering to is that fact that she was in the open and if we knew she was in the car and we were targeting her, then the car would've looked a lot different.....but we weren't targeting her, so that is why the cars looks as it does.....don't read in to what people write....these are two different stories.....
I was being facetious. Having a sideways swipe at the fact the the objects the US military target sometimes come out better than the objects that they don't target (allied forces spring to mind...).
gorogod
03-10-2005, 07:56 AM
either way I don't think she was targeted, it may have been a legit reasoning for the check point to fire at the car or an itchy trigger finger.........you don't know what these guys and girls in the military have to go through, unless you yourself have been put in that situation.....it's all about how bad do you want to make it back home....if they make a mistake, that is something they will live with for the rest of their lives haunting them......
$tinkle
03-10-2005, 08:56 AM
anybody catch fresh air on n.p.r. yesterday? had dexter filkins from nyt talking about his 2 years in iraq. commented on this kerfuffle w/ 2 useful anecdotal nuggets: checkpoints are the scariest points in one's travel (for both occupants of vehicles & policing forces) cultural differences in the (apparently) not so universal hand signal to stop (us: closed fist, iraqi: spread fingers brought to a close)
this particular incident may be immune from the hand-signal definition as the driver was italian
he also commented that us forces are more highly disciplined than iraqi security forces w.r.t. their trigger fingers.
oh, & ms. sgrena has her own reported anti-us bias: clicky (http://www.zachtei.nl/2005/03/08/000670.html)'Be careful not to get kidnapped,' I told the female Italian journalist sitting next to me in the small plane that was headed for Baghdad. 'Oh no,' she said. 'That won't happen. We are siding with the oppressed Iraqi people. No Iraqi would kidnap us.'
It doesn't sound very nice to be critical of a fellow reporter. But Sgrena's attitude is a disgrace for journalism. Or didn't she tell me back in the plane that 'common journalists such as yourself' simply do not support the Iraqi people? 'The Americans are the biggest enemies of mankind,' the three women behind me had told me, for Sgrena travelled to Iraq with two Italian colleagues who hated the Americans as well.
'You don't understand the situation. We are anti-imperialists, anti-capitalists, communists,' they said. The Iraqis only kidnap American sympathizers, the enemies of the Americans have nothing to fear.
But they knew better. When we arrived at Baghdad Airport, I was waiting for a jeep from the American army to come pick me up. I saw one of the Italian women walking around crying. An Iraqi had stolen her computer and television equipment. They were standing outside shivering, waiting for a cab to take them to Baghdad.
With her bias Sgrena did not only jeopardize herself, but due to her behavior a security officer is now dead, and the Italian government (prime minister Berlusconi included) has had to spend millions of euros to save her life. It is to be hoped that Sgrena will decide to have a career change. Propagandist or MP perhaps. But she should give up journalism immediately.as for her claim they were going at 25 mph:The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell.'my truth' - Giuliana Sgrena (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/)
that doesn't quite square; perhaps they moderated their speed nearing the checkpoint, but there exist conflicting reports they were coming in pretty hot - not advisable at night.
for the record, the italians believe it was a friendly fire accident (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16169-2005Mar8.html?sub=AR)
$tinkle
03-10-2005, 09:53 AM
but wait, there's more:
Giuliana Sgrena's boyfriend Pier Scolari has described the shooting as an "ambush". (http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2005/s1317277.htm)PIER SCOLARI (translated): I have heard it said that the Americans signalled many times to the car to stop, but Giuliana told me she didn't see anything. They were driving calmly. They had already passed many checkpoints, therefore everybody had been informed. They phoned and warned that they were going to the airport.
Suddenly as they were talking to each other without any signal a flashlight was switched on and three or four hundred bullets were shot towards the car. Giuliana told me she collected handfuls of bullets on the seats.ok, so much for her journalistic integrity
Changleen
03-10-2005, 01:29 PM
this particular incident may be immune from the hand-signal definition as the driver was italianOh, I think you'll find the Italians are highly proficient at hand signals...
he also commented that us forces are more highly disciplined than iraqi security forces w.r.t. their trigger fingers.Now come on. That's just ridiculous.
I still don't think it was intentional though. I think a bunch of grunts just saw her car coming, clocked that the people inside were not 100% white, and lit them up. It is 'their fault' for being overly trigger happy and not thinking.
Had they thought about it for a second, they'd have realised that to be so close to the airport, the car would have to have been already checked out by their buddies.
Soldiers are in a difficult situation n Iraq, but that's why they're (apparantly) highly trained. They shouldn't get a free pass for any ****-up they happen to make. Everyone has aspects of their job which are hard, but they are still punished if they screw up. That's life.
WarEagle2K
03-10-2005, 01:52 PM
No!!!! I don't know the whole story, but I do no that I would not travel at a high rate of speed toward a checkpoint with 18 yr old Marines that are jumpy from all of the car bombs in the region. If I put myself in that position, I would have been one of the ones "raining bullets" down on that car. Who knows what that car was doing...
$tinkle
03-10-2005, 01:53 PM
Now come on. That's just ridiculous. no, ridiculous is giving your opinion the same consideration as a nyt polk award winner who spent 2 years in iraq living in the red zone, not the green zone.
must be really difficult to shoe-horn your anti-us sentiments in the face of expert testimony, but please carry onI think a bunch of grunts just saw her car coming, clocked that the people inside were not 100% white, and lit them up.tell me, how does one make a skin-tone analysis at night from within or atop a moving amored hummer?
Had they thought about it for a second, they'd have realised that to be so close to the airport, the car would have to have been already checked out by their buddies.from your logic, the military (& iraqi replacement forces) should have nothing more than a night stick.
Changleen
03-10-2005, 02:01 PM
no, ridiculous is giving your opinion the same consideration as a nyt polk award winner who spent 2 years in iraq living in the red zone, not the green zone.I think the record is on my side on this one...
must be really difficult to shoe-horn your anti-us sentiments in the face of expert testimony, but please carry ontell me, how does one make a skin-tone analysis at night from within or atop a moving amored hummer?With one's eyes? You really are an idiot sometimes. Ever been to an Airport that isn't well lit? And if they didn't make such a judgement, what was their excuse for shooting the crap out of this car after it had past several other checkpoints? Maybe they just did it for fun.
from your logic, the military (& iraqi replacement forces) should have nothing more than a night stick.No, that's your logic, doofus. As normal you are incapable of viewing any sitaution in any other shade than black or white. Ever taken any statement at face value without extrapolating it to the nearest extreme?
$tinkle
03-10-2005, 02:27 PM
With one's eyes? You really are an idiot sometimes. Ever been to an Airport that isn't well lit? so what you have just implied is the checkpoint is close enough to the airport to have the approach to the checkpoint lit up by airport light. and if so, then the expectation of gunfire is close enough to potentially strike aircraft on approach or taking off. do you even know how far the airport is from the checkpoint? (you need to supply this information to defend your assertion). all i've read is this was one of (if not the last) checkpoint before the airport - not at the airport.what was their excuse for shooting the crap out of this car after it had past several other checkpoints? Maybe they just did it for fun.have you still not viewed the pictures of the car? here they are again for review:
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/sgrena-car-ap-1-lg.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/sgrena-car-ap-2-lg.jpg
funny how this car has all its panels & its windscreen intact even though the military shot the crap out of it
Ever taken any statement at face value without extrapolating it to the nearest extreme?kinda like:I think a bunch of grunts just saw her car coming, clocked that the people inside were not 100% white, and lit them up.
lastly, some fair warning: replace your flaming w/ sources for your seemingly baseless accusations
gorogod
03-10-2005, 03:43 PM
I'll put in some of my own expierence to the Airport area there.....One there aren't lights just lighting up the airport area at night.....Two....these checkpoints are away from the airport.........Yes, I have been there.....I keep on hearing that she said there was a hail of bullets and she was picking up bullets in the back seat......I may have mixed up what she said, but I should be pretty accurate....If this is the Car that she was in and there was a hail of bullets, then these must be special bullets that can pass through steel and glass without damage and stop all momentum and fall on the seats......we could beat this one up for the next decade.....
Jorvik
03-10-2005, 06:07 PM
I think that the accusation that we intentionally targeted her is hilarious. Do a google image search for the vehicles that tried to run a checkpoint. Those are mostly vehicles which weren't firing at the checkpoint or anything. That's what a crew served and a bunch of M-16s will do to a vehicle. If they fired 300-400 rounds at the vehicle nobody would have lived. Those engagements last a few seconds and that many rounds can easily have been expended. If they were firing for minutes as she says, every rifleman could have expended every single one of his magazines and their 240 would have run dry in 2-3 minutes. That is enough rounds to make a vehicle damn near unrecognizable.
Hilarity.
Changleen
03-10-2005, 07:18 PM
so what you have just implied is the checkpoint is close enough to the airport to have the approach to the checkpoint lit up by airport light. and if so, then the expectation of gunfire is close enough to potentially strike aircraft on approach or taking off. do you even know how far the airport is from the checkpoint? (you need to supply this information to defend your assertion). all i've read is this was one of (if not the last) checkpoint before the airport - not at the airport.You should read a bit harder - 700 meters away from the runway. Very close indeed.
funny how this car has all its panels & its windscreen intact even though the military shot the crap out of it
kinda like:
lastly, some fair warning: replace your flaming w/ sources for your seemingly baseless accusationsSo what do you think happened given that one occupant of the car was killed and the other three wounded? What are you even arguing with anyway? My point was that she was not shot on purpose, and that some dumb soldiers shot her by accident because they'd rather kill innocent people than risk their own lives. What sort of revision are you after here? Are you trying to say the Soldiers were blameless despite that they shot an innocent person? Come on, what is YOUR point here?
valve bouncer
03-10-2005, 07:52 PM
I think that the accusation that we intentionally targeted her is hilarious. Do a google image search for the vehicles that tried to run a checkpoint. Those are mostly vehicles which weren't firing at the checkpoint or anything. That's what a crew served and a bunch of M-16s will do to a vehicle. If they fired 300-400 rounds at the vehicle nobody would have lived. Those engagements last a few seconds and that many rounds can easily have been expended. If they were firing for minutes as she says, every rifleman could have expended every single one of his magazines and their 240 would have run dry in 2-3 minutes. That is enough rounds to make a vehicle damn near unrecognizable.
Hilarity.
Meat's back!!!! :) :) Actually something doesn't seem right here. You'd expect if the car approached the checkpoint at high speed at night that it would be riddled with bullets but as the pics Twinkie posted that didn't happen. Kind of weird.
Changleen
03-10-2005, 08:25 PM
Meat's back!!!! :) :) Actually something doesn't seem right here. You'd expect if the car approached the checkpoint at high speed at night that it would be riddled with bullets but as the pics Twinkie posted that didn't happen. Kind of weird.Indeed - The car in the picture seems to have only one hole in the windshield on the passenger side (which, notably would be consistant with the assasination attempt theory :blah: ) and maybe the driver and passenger side windows smashed out. It is hard to tell from these shots if the rear window is intact or not. Such damage would be more consistant with closer range, more controlled fire.
As for this whole 'rain of bullets' thing, let's remeber that the Italians do have somewhat of a reputation for exaduration.
Changleen
03-10-2005, 08:29 PM
Ah ha!
Right-wing bloggers are circulating a photo purportedly showing the car in which Sgrena Guiliani was wounded and her rescuer Nicola Calipari was fatally shot. The photo is being used to discredit Sgrena's account of the shooting.
It shows a four-door sedan which has only the driver's side window broken and no overt bullet damage to the bodywork. That contradicts the "hail of bullets" described by Sgrena and others. And it boosts the US military's case that the incident was just a "mishap."
At first glance the picture seems legitimate. Captions which accompany the photo on blogs say it's a still frame taken from an Associated Press video about the shooting at Baghdad Airport. These captions also give a source link to versions of the video on Yahoo and on AP Feedroom.
$tinkle? Are you lying to us?
ALEXIS_DH
03-10-2005, 09:27 PM
Ah ha!
$tinkle? Are you lying to us?
it was not a lie!!!!, it was bad intelligence.
$tinkle
03-11-2005, 09:32 AM
it was not a lie!!!!, it was bad intelligence.+2 (humorous)
What a load of bull ****. This is one stupid bitch. 300-400 bullets? I dont think so, maybe 6 or 7. Why is this so hard to confirm, just count the bullet holes and make her out to be the liar she is.
"told by Sgrena in which she claimed 300-400 bullets were fired, one of which hit Italian secret-service agent Nicola Calipari"
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