we need to see your papers [Archive]

$tinkle

02-28-2005, 10:05 PM

Grounded: Millionaire John Gilmore stays close to home while making a point about privacy

He's unable to travel because he refuses to present a government-approved ID

SAN FRANCISCO -- John Gilmore's splendid isolation began July 4, 2002, when, with defiance aforethought, he strolled to the Southwest Airlines counter at Oakland Airport and presented his ticket.

The gate agent asked for his ID.

Gilmore asked her why.

It is the law, she said.

Gilmore asked to see the law.

Nobody could produce a copy. To date, nobody has. The regulation that mandates ID at airports is "Sensitive Security Information." The law, as it turns out, is unavailable for inspection.i only have one small problem with obeying dumb laws: I NEED TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.

read it all (http://www.postgazette.com/pg/05058/462446.stm)

mack

02-28-2005, 10:16 PM

That is crazy. Yet again Ashcroft you tick me off. He obviosly is not a threat, why dont they just give the beard sporting hippy a ****ing break? tools.

Jr_Bullit

02-28-2005, 10:42 PM

What a stupid airline employee! I'd fire her for not being able to explain company policy...
"It is our company policy to require state or federal picture identification (such as a drivers' license) in order to verify this ticket is your property, as we wish to do our part to prevent identity theft. I cannot provide you with a legal basis for our company policy at this time, but if you would like some follow-up from a company representative I would be happy to arrange it. If this alters your plan for travel, I'm sorry, but it is company policy,and we do not change this particular rule regardless of who you claim yourself to be."

Silver

02-28-2005, 11:01 PM

If I'm worth 30 million dollars, there is no way in hell you'll find me on Southwest...

The Kadvang

02-28-2005, 11:11 PM

If I'm worth 30 million dollars, there is no way in hell you'll find me on Southwest...

Damn right. I only fly it because I am a broke high school student.

$tinkle

03-01-2005, 09:31 AM

That is crazy. Yet again Ashcroft you tick me off. He obviosly is not a threat, why dont they just give the beard sporting hippy a ****ing break? tools.small problem:Congress passed the Air Transportation Security Act of 1974. The Department of Transportation was instructed to hold close information that would "constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy" or "reveal trade secrets" or "be detrimental to the safety of persons traveling in air transportation."i think you were -5.

mack

03-01-2005, 11:02 AM

small problem:i think you were -5.

"Gilmore v. Ashcroft, is to be heard"

I was only reading the article...

$tinkle

03-01-2005, 11:13 AM

"Gilmore v. Ashcroft, is to be heard"

I was only reading the article...so was i (that quote was near the bottom of it). Curiously, this yet-to-be-disclosed law has only recently been "enforced", and most likely at the beckoning of the DHS, with assistance from the erstwhile AG. I'm not absolving ashcroft, just saying this can't be hung around his neck.

i'm all for policies like "extraordinary rendition", mostly because they have (in my opinion) merit for a certain climate. this nebulous - if existent - directive/law/mandate is flawed, but as this article has pointed out, difficult to specify the flaw.

$tinkle

03-01-2005, 12:48 PM

Changleen

03-01-2005, 02:40 PM

speaking of the government needing to play its cards face-up:
judge orders release of padilla (http://www.thecarolinachannel.com/news/4239773/detail.html)

...or just charge him with something.
sheeshYou say the Gov needs to play it's cards face up, but you agree
with 'extraordinary rendition'? (Otherwise known as 'sending random punters to be tortured by other nations for us - often with no evidence or charges being brought') How do you reconcile that? For that matter how the **** can you justify torture under any circumstances? Do you really think it helps? Have you read any history? If it wasn't for the CIA teaching Egypt how to torture people in the first place, there'd be no Osama. Don't you learn anything from past mistakes?

$tinkle

03-01-2005, 02:45 PM

You say the Gov needs to play it's cards face up, but you agree
with 'extraordinary rendition'? (Otherwise known as 'sending random punters to be tortured by other nations for us - often with no evidence or charges being brought') How do you reconcile that? once thoroughly interrogated, padilla was being warehoused, not charged. he had no use to us at all.

fish or cut bait
Have you read any history? If it wasn't for the CIA teaching Egypt how to torture people in the first place, there'd be no Osama. Don't you learn anything from past mistakes?go on then....

Changleen

03-01-2005, 03:04 PM

once thoroughly interrogated, padilla was being warehoused, not charged. he had no use to us at all.'Warehoused'? WTF is that? You didn't answer my question and you now seem happy that anyone the US happens to not like the look of may be treated in any which way you want, irrespective of any human rights whatsoever.
go on then....If you are ignorant of your own country's fairly recent involvement in the middle east you really probably arn't the best person to make any type of judgements about this sort of thing are you?

Do you not understand that the US's treatment of others leads people to form an opinion of the US based on the quality of that treatment? Can you not see the plainly obvious fact that by acting in the ways you are condoning you are making the problem worse?

HarryCallahan

03-01-2005, 06:45 PM

If I'm worth 30 million dollars, there is no way in hell you'll find me on Southwest...

Maybe being thrifty is how the guy got to have $30 million. ;)

Nice Johnny cash photo, by the way.

$tinkle

03-02-2005, 09:20 AM

Do you not understand that the US's treatment of others leads people to form an opinion of the US based on the quality of that treatment? Can you not see the plainly obvious fact that by acting in the ways you are condoning you are making the problem worse?change "US" with "muslim extremists" & see if you can figure out my "nuance"

Changleen

03-02-2005, 01:17 PM

change "US" with "muslim extremists" & see if you can figure out my "nuance"So what you're saying is you're quite happy to live in a eye for an eye, tit-for-tat situation, constantly whining 'well they did it first', always willing to drop to the level of your 'evil enemy' in order to 'win'.

Frankly that's pretty pathetic. Again with the history, do you not learn anything from the Palestinian/Israel situation?

I also find it highly hypocritical that in the abortion thread you call yourdelf a 'pro-lifer' yet are quite happy to utterly suppress the rights, mistreat or kill anyone who's not an American. You're not really a 'pro-lifer' at all. You're just a scared little xenophobe.

Silver

03-02-2005, 01:23 PM

Maybe being thrifty is how the guy got to have $30 million. ;)

Nice Johnny cash photo, by the way.

Thanks. As far as I know, I had it first on this site :)

Still, there is a difference between being thrifty and being cheap. How many people get out of college, get a good job, and still eat ramen 14 times a week?

$tinkle

03-02-2005, 01:39 PM

So what you're saying is you're quite happy to live in a eye for an eye, tit-for-tat situation, constantly whining 'well they did it first', always willing to drop to the level of your 'evil enemy' in order to 'win'.abosolutely incorrect reading, assessment, interpretation, whatever you care to call it. our responses shall not be symmetricFrankly that's pretty pathetic. Again with the history, do you not learn anything from the Palestinian/Israel situation?just when i thought you were out of topics on which to exhibit ignorance.
you probably see that conflict as a "cycle of violence", too.
time for you to do some reading, son:
http://middle-east-info.org/gateway.html
http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm#Modern%20History
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/index.htmlI also find it highly hypocritical that in the abortion thread you call yourdelf a 'pro-lifer' yet are quite happy to utterly suppress the rights, mistreat or kill anyone who's not an American. You're not really a 'pro-lifer' at all. You're just a scared little xenophobe.you could at least look less foolish if you brought your case here by quoting me on these specifics.

oh wait...

[fyi: "scared xenophobe" is superfluous]

Changleen

03-02-2005, 05:20 PM

abosolutely incorrect reading, assessment, interpretation, whatever you care to call it. our responses shall not be symmetricAh, So you condone dropping your standards lower than your 'evil enemies'. Doesn't that make you the evil ones? just when i thought you were out of topics on which to exhibit ignorance.
you probably see that conflict as a "cycle of violence", too.
time for you to do some reading, son:
http://middle-east-info.org/gateway.html
http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm#Modern%20History
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/index.htmlyou could at least look less foolish if you brought your case here by quoting me on these specifics.Bwahahaha! Most of that stuff is further from reality than Fox. Are you serious that you think Israel vs. Palestine is not a cycle of violence? Ah well, I suppose that's not too much of a stretch for someone who condones torture. :stosh:

mack

03-02-2005, 05:26 PM

people get out of college, get a good job, and still eat ramen 14 times a week?

People can eat ramen out of college? AWESOME! :thumb:

I am what you would consider 'stingy'.

golgiaparatus

03-03-2005, 07:49 AM

Good article... makes a good point. Why do we have to show out ID's how does it protect anyone? Especially since the 9-11 guys all had valid ID's and papers. So why would the govm't be collecting info on everyone like that?

$tinkle

03-03-2005, 09:12 AM

Bwahahaha! Most of that stuff is further from reality than Fox. Are you serious that you think Israel vs. Palestine is not a cycle of violence? Ah well, I suppose that's not too much of a stretch for someone who condones torture. :stosh:...& this is the part where you actually defend your claim, instead of flippantly dismissing the whole lot (citations, mistakes to claims, etc.). this is far more than just "we agree to disagree".

now that you've made your position clear, can i expect you to back-track your way through the minotaur's maze of tiny passages in the twists of tiny passages...also known as "making your case"?

your debating skills are accidental at best & flameworthy at worst.

$tinkle

03-03-2005, 12:56 PM

Bwahahaha! Most of that stuff is further from reality than Fox. Are you serious that you think Israel vs. Palestine is not a cycle of violence? Ah well, I suppose that's not too much of a stretch for someone who condones torture.if there's a cycle of violence, then why is it since the "cease fire" (http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/02/08/israel_palestinians_declare_end_to_violence_110786 9612/) was declared on feb 8th, there have been these cute little incidents:
car bomb explodes near joseph's tomb (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/547769.html) tel aviv disco bombing feb 26th called a "military target" (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43124)

maybe after reading this (http://www.techcentralstation.com/022805A.html) you can tell me why palestinian terror is different.

the only hope to "break" this "cycle of violence" is being sought by sharon by possible committing political suicide by withdrawing from the settlements in the west bank & gaza. add to that the release of 500 thugs back to their terrorist training ....errrr...i mean refugee camps. you will have to imagine my expected surprise when this does not stop the "cycle of violence".

bookmark this post - make me wrong in the months to come.

Changleen

03-03-2005, 01:15 PM

$tinkle, both of your posts just go to show your utter lack of ability to percieve anything from beyond the Fox-imposed bounds of your xenophobic little mind. So far in this thread you've condoned torture of non-Americans without evidence or charge, and then said you feel the Government need to play it's cards face up. You could not explain your hypocracy, probably because you don't understand it. You continue to make reference to every Arab you mention in a derogatory way. It really is pointless discussing anything with you other than as an exercise to plumb the depths of hatred and shortsightedness that have been instilled in some Americans who are too ignorant to see the actions of their own Government for what they really are. As much as there has been a campaign to demonise Arabs in America, I am still suprised the voracity with which people like you are willing to hate and turn a blind eye to every abuse of human rights and basic decency your Government perpitrates under the banner of 'winning' the 'war on terror'.

$tinkle

03-03-2005, 01:34 PM

$tinkle, both of your posts just go to show your utter lack of ability to percieve [sic] anything from beyond the Fox-imposed bounds of your xenophobic little mind. So far in this thread you've condoned torture of non-Americans without evidence or charge, citation, please (btw, padilla is an american citizen and was detained, not tortured)and then said you feel the Government need to play it's [sic] cards face up. You could not explain your hypocracy [sic], probably because you don't understand it.apparently, we both suffer from this "affliction". do explain with quotesYou continue to make reference to every Arab you mention in a derogatory way. arrested, tried, convicted, & jailed persons as 'thugs' is derogatory?It really is pointless discussing anything with you other than as an exercise to plumb [sic] the depths of hatred and shortsightedness that have been instilled in some Americans who are too ignorant to see the actions of their own Government for what they really are. As much as there has been a campaign to demonise Arabs in Americatell it to the wahhabistsI am still suprised the voracity [sic] with which people like you are willing to hate and turn a blind eye to every abuse of human rights and basic decency your Government perpitrates [sic] under the banner of 'winning' the 'war on terror'.i do wish someone would find a cure or treatment for your congitive dissonance (http://www.dmu.ac.uk/~jamesa/learning/dissonance.htm). i prime example is your [going nowhere!] thread on the chinese accussing us of human rights violations was laughable. "crime & poverty" as HRV?

Changleen

03-03-2005, 02:20 PM

citation, please (btw, padilla is an american citizen and was detained, not tortured)
i'm all for policies like "extraordinary rendition"

:oink:

Toshi

03-03-2005, 02:26 PM

Changleen, the lessons to be drawn from this and the gay adoption thread are that some people <coughs loudly in the sound of "$tinklemackclancy98"> are better off on your ignore list...

Changleen

03-03-2005, 02:36 PM

Changleen, the lessons to be drawn from this and the gay adoption thread are that some people <coughs loudly in the sound of "$tinklemackclancy98"> are better off on your ignore list...I know, I know. I guess I'm just a sucker for arguing... I need to see someone about it...

Changleen

03-03-2005, 02:56 PM

i do wish someone would find a cure or treatment for your congitive dissonance (http://www.dmu.ac.uk/~jamesa/learning/dissonance.htm). i prime example is your [going nowhere!] thread on the chinese accussing us of human rights violations was laughable. "crime & poverty" as HRV?MY 'cognitive disonance'? Somehow, after reading an article whose main point is highlighted quite clearly in the first two paragraphs:
The report - issued annually in response to the U.S. State Department's global human rights survey - accused the American military of committing ``wanton slaughters,'' killing thousands of foreign civilians and torturing detainees.

``The atrocity of U.S. troops abusing Iraqi POWs exposed the infringement of human rights of foreign nationals by the United States,'' said the report released by the press office of China's Cabinet.you still manage to find the least relevant part and focus on it, whilst ignoring the crux of the issue. You use this tactic again and again to avoid actually talking about the issues other people raise. Well, maybe it's not 'cognitive disonance', maybe it's just ADD or good old fashioned stupidity.