Should I be grateful...

[Jr_Bullit]

That my appearance is so stereotypical white american girl that this sort of thing should only happen to me in Wonderland?
Oh wait - technically, for these folks, this is the same damned thing.

This article is worth discussing I think - though I doubt it will get more than a few replies from those who already agree with the sentiments of the author of this editorial:

Thrown to the Wolves
By BOB HERBERT

Published: February 25, 2005

OTTAWA

If John Ashcroft was right, then I was staring into the malevolent, duplicitous eyes of pure evil, the eyes of a man with the mass murder of Americans on his mind. But all I could really see was a polite, unassuming, neatly dressed guy who looked like a suburban Little League coach.

If Mr. Ashcroft was right, then Maher Arar should have been in a U.S. prison, not talking to me in an office in downtown Ottawa. But there he was, a 34-year-old man who now wears a perpetually sad expression, talking about his recent experiences - a real-life story with the hideous aura of a hallucination. Mr. Arar's 3-year-old son, Houd, loudly crunched potato chips while his father was being interviewed.

"I still have nightmares about being in Syria, being beaten, being in jail," said Mr. Arar. "They feel very real. When I wake up, I feel very relieved to find myself in my room."

In the fall of 2002 Mr. Arar, a Canadian citizen, suddenly found himself caught up in the cruel mockery of justice that the Bush administration has substituted for the rule of law in the post-Sept. 11 world. While attempting to change planes at Kennedy Airport on his way home to Canada from a family vacation in Tunisia, he was seized by American authorities, interrogated and thrown into jail. He was not charged with anything, and he never would be charged with anything, but his life would be ruined.

Mr. Arar was surreptitiously flown out of the United States to Jordan and then driven to Syria, where he was kept like a nocturnal animal in an unlit, underground, rat-infested cell that was the size of a grave. From time to time he was tortured.

He wept. He begged not to be beaten anymore. He signed whatever confessions he was told to sign. He prayed.

Among the worst moments, he said, were the times he could hear babies crying in a nearby cell where women were imprisoned. He recalled hearing one woman pleading with a guard for several days for milk for her child.

He could hear other prisoners screaming as they were tortured.

"I used to ask God to help them," he said.

The Justice Department has alleged, without disclosing any evidence whatsoever, that Mr. Arar is a member of, or somehow linked to, Al Qaeda. If that's so, how can the administration possibly allow him to roam free? The Syrians, who tortured him, have concluded that Mr. Arar is not linked in any way to terrorism.

And the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, a sometimes-clownish outfit that seems to have helped set this entire fiasco in motion by forwarding bad information to American authorities, is being criticized heavily in Canada for failing to follow its own rules on the handling and dissemination of raw classified information.

Official documents in Canada suggest that Mr. Arar was never the target of a terror investigation there. One former Canadian official, commenting on the Arar case, was quoted in a local newspaper as saying "accidents will happen" in the war on terror.

Whatever may have happened in Canada, nothing can excuse the behavior of the United States in this episode. Mr. Arar was deliberately dispatched by U.S. officials to Syria, a country that - as they knew - practices torture. And if Canadian officials hadn't intervened, he most likely would not have been heard from again.

Mr. Arar is the most visible victim of the reprehensible U.S. policy known as extraordinary rendition, in which individuals are abducted by American authorities and transferred, without any legal rights whatever, to a regime skilled in the art of torture. The fact that some of the people swallowed up by this policy may in fact have been hard-core terrorists does not make it any less repugnant.

Mr. Arar, who is married and also has an 8-year-old daughter, said the pain from some of the beatings he endured lasted for six months.

"It was so scary," he said. "After a while I became like an animal."

A lawsuit on Mr. Arar's behalf has been filed against the United States by the Center for Constitutional Rights in New York. Barbara Olshansky, a lawyer with the center, noted yesterday that the government is arguing that none of Mr. Arar's claims can even be adjudicated because they "would involve the revelation of state secrets."

This is a government that feels it is answerable to no one.

[$tinkle]

gee, the US sure looks to be evil from this missive. however, i noticed canada is only being blamed for oversight, poor judgment, or some other innocuously flippant excuse for not being held to account, or without the infrastructure for this to happen north of the 49th parallel.

upon closer (or broader) inspection we see that canada employs their own blended version of the patriot act II & bungled INS: security certificates (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnsecurity/securitycertificates_secretevidence.html). add to that, the modus operandi of al-queda: "claim you were tortured" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/01/30/do3004.xml)

what was that again about a "government that answers to no-one"?

[Jr_Bullit]

what was that again about a "government that answers to no-one"?

It doesn't surprise me that Canada has similar laws - they tend to follow-suit with the US, their recent choice to not participate of the missile defense shield I guess is a fairly surprising action (though not un-smart financially).

The point of the posting was not say - gosh ONLY the US is an awful big bad bully in the world, but to say tht the US IS a big bad bully and that this type of treatment of individuals shouldn't be acceptable ANYWHERE.

What's the phrase - innocent until proven guilty? I mean **** - if they were really suspicious of this guy, they could have put him in a holding cell for 24 hours while the checked his background then let him go on his merry way and his temper might be a bit ruffled but otherwise he'd still be a functional human being.

Are you so bloody insensitive to the concept of torture not being a proper method of determining IF someone is or isn't a terrorist?

[reflux]

And to think a majority of people in our country still don't know the real reason(s) as to why others hate us. They hate our freedom blah blah blah.... b*llsh*t.

Personally, I love this country and most everything that it has stood for, I'm flat out ashamed when I read sh*t like this. Whatever happened to setting an example for the rest of world and trying to do our part to make this a better place?

[$tinkle]

The point of the posting was not say - gosh ONLY the US is an awful big bad bully in the world, but to say tht the US IS a big bad bully and that this type of treatment of individuals shouldn't be acceptable ANYWHERE.sure it was. it's just "convenient" the US was singled out & emphasized above where the alleged violations took place. i'm not buying your smokescreen - sorry.Are you so bloody insensitive to the concept of torture not being a proper method of determining IF someone is or isn't a terrorist?i believe in a continuum of force to be used in coercion of a "person of interest". that's as specific i can be without referring you to the various posts i've already submitted on this topic.

about this para from your article:If John Ashcroft was right, then I was staring into the malevolent, duplicitous eyes of pure evil, the eyes of a man with the mass murder of Americans on his mind. But all I could really see was a polite, unassuming, neatly dressed guy who looked like a suburban Little League coach.released yesterday was a story entitled "he looked terror in the eye - and blinked" (http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/columnists/michael_smerconish/10977209.htm?1c), which had this to say: At that time on a Tuesday, two men wearing sport coats and ties approached his counter with just 17 minutes to spare before their flight to Boston. (Tuohey now knows they'd stayed the night before at the Comfort Inn down the road.) And he suspects they arrived late to take advantage of an airline system that was then "more concerned about on-time departure than effective screening."

He thought the pair were unusual. First, they each held a $2,500 first-class, one-way ticket to Los Angeles (via Boston). "You don't see many of those."

The second reason is not so easy to explain.

"It was just the look on the one man's face, his eyes," Tuohey recently told me.

"By now, everyone in America has seen a picture of this man, but there is more life in that photograph we've all seen than he had in the flesh and blood. He looked like a walking corpse. He looked so angry. And he wouldn't look directly at me."

The man was Mohamed Atta. The other fellow ("he was young and had a goofy smile, I can't believe he knew he was going to die that day") was Abdul Aziz al Omari. Michael Tuohey is the individual who checked them in at the Portland airport as they began their murderous journey.

"I looked up, and asked them the standard questions. The one guy was looking at me. It sent a chill through me. Something in my stomach churned. And subconsciously, I said to myself, 'If they don't look like Arab terrorists, nothing does.' "

"Then I gave myself a mental slap. In over 34 years, I had checked in thousands of Arab travelers, and I never thought this before. I said to myself, 'That's not nice to think. They are just two Arab businessmen.' " And with that, Tuohey handed them their boarding passes.

[I Are Baboon]

That my appearance is so stereotypical white american girl that this sort of thing should only happen to me in Wonderland?


To answer your question: Yes.

[TheInedibleHulk]

gee, the US sure looks to be evil from this missive. however, i noticed canada is only being blamed for oversight, poor judgment, or some other innocuously flippant excuse for not being held to account, or without the infrastructure for this to happen north of the 49th parallel.

upon closer (or broader) inspection we see that canada employs their own blended version of the patriot act II & bungled INS: security certificates (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnsecurity/securitycertificates_secretevidence.html). add to that, the modus operandi of al-queda: "claim you were tortured" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/01/30/do3004.xml)

what was that again about a "government that answers to no-one"?

How overwhelmingly typical... you make absolutely no defense of the actions of the US or actually discuss the point, instead you choose to pass the buck and say "but mommy, everyone else is doing it!" Canadian soldiers didnt grab this man and hand him over to syria, US soldiers did. Canada has its problems just like we do, that doesnt mean we are wrong our that our problems need to be dealt with. And you know why you have to make accusations and change the subject in every debate? ...because your viewpoint is almost always not logically defensable. Challenge the credibility fo the source, point out bias, defend the US's actions by saying they are trying to promote world safety, but for God's sake just MAKE A POINT. Personally I think this is tragic, but I am always wary when I read a report that is obviously written by someone who has an agenda. If it did happen as this reporter tells it, then I hope he sues the crap out of the US govt and they give him eleventy gozillion dollars and change their policies. However, it is likely that there are facts this reporter did not include, so I'm not going to get up in arms for either side.

Edit: Your second post didnt help you, except to reiterate your self-centric and ethno-centric worldview in which your safety and happiness is more important than that of the rest of the world. The story about the 9/11 hijackers does nothing except prove that you think an entire race should be persecuted for the actions of a few.

[valve bouncer]

According to the frothers anything is acceptable in the war on terror. Yay democracy.

[ioscope]

I was too lazy to read all of those words and now I am confused.

[mack]

I dont see why little things like this can be such a big deal. People are starving in Africa and thousands dead a month from ethnic cleansing. It seems the world has dismissed Africa as another world and not a problem...


Meanwhile New York donated 20 million for a thing called 'art' that consists of orange curtains... do you have any idea of what 20 million would do in Africa, or how many people it would save?


I think that were all concentrating on the small stuff, unless im missing somthing else...

[JMAC]

gee, the US sure looks to be evil from this missive. however, i noticed canada is only being blamed for oversight, poor judgment, or some other innocuously flippant excuse for not being held to account, or without the infrastructure for this to happen north of the 49th parallel.

upon closer (or broader) inspection we see that canada employs their own blended version of the patriot act II & bungled INS: security certificates (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnsecurity/securitycertificates_secretevidence.html). add to that, the modus operandi of al-queda: "claim you were tortured" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/01/30/do3004.xml)

what was that again about a "government that answers to no-one"?

Please try use some CAPITAL LETTERS. :mumble: and yeah you seem to not get the point that Bush changed around laws after 9/11 allowing that to happen. It was Americans who sent him off to Syria NOT Canada. Our useless Mounted Police simply did what they were asked to do. The US has alot to answer for, for the way they had and have treated immagrants after 9/11 but sadly justice is never served to those who deserve it most.

[JMAC]

How overwhelmingly typical... you make absolutely no defense of the actions of the US or actually discuss the point, instead you choose to pass the buck and say "but mommy, everyone else is doing it!" Canadian soldiers didnt grab this man and hand him over to syria, US soldiers did. Canada has its problems just like we do, that doesnt mean we are wrong our that our problems need to be dealt with. And you know why you have to make accusations and change the subject in every debate? ...because your viewpoint is almost always not logically defensable. Challenge the credibility fo the source, point out bias, defend the US's actions by saying they are trying to promote world safety, but for God's sake just MAKE A POINT. Personally I think this is tragic, but I am always wary when I read a report that is obviously written by someone who has an agenda. If it did happen as this reporter tells it, then I hope he sues the crap out of the US govt and they give him eleventy gozillion dollars and change their policies. However, it is likely that there are facts this reporter did not include, so I'm not going to get up in arms for either side.

Edit: Your second post didnt help you, except to reiterate your self-centric and ethno-centric worldview in which your safety and happiness is more important than that of the rest of the world. The story about the 9/11 hijackers does nothing except prove that you think an entire race should be persecuted for the actions of a few.


Just a note about the article being biased..While it happened it was BIG news in Canada and I heard about it alot on CBC. It basically went the same way in what CBC reported but it seems to have gotten blown up just a bit in this article. Who really knows if he elaborated or not about getting tortured.

PS. $tinkle could you please, at least, start your pathetic "arguments" with capitals. I mean my spelling may be bad, but I at least use the shift bar.

[JMAC]

I dont see why little things like this can be such a big deal. People are starving in Africa and thousands dead a month from ethnic cleansing. It seems the world has dismissed Africa as another world and not a problem...


Meanwhile New York donated 20 million for a thing called 'art' that consists of orange curtains... do you have any idea of what 20 million would do in Africa, or how many people it would save?


I think that were all concentrating on the small stuff, unless im missing somthing else...

If you're at all interrested about Africa, read the book Shaken hands with the Devil by Romeo Dallaire. It's a very moving book and shows just how little the world cares about africa.
Also I couldn;t agree more about this being a very little thing when compaired to Africa. However, it goes against any of the crap the US's comes up with about having freedom, it also shows how incredibly racist we are. That would have never happened if the man was 6'2'' blonde hair and blue eyes. Basically though it goes against any normal routines to justice in North America. So in that sense it is a very big deal.

[Silver]

This happens all the time. We aren't supposed to torture people, but that doesn't stop us from letting our freedom loving allies in the war on terror do it for us. This one just had a slightly more flimsy excuse than some of the other ones do, and the guy who got ****ed over was from a country that most Americans have a vague idea about, so it was news.

[JMAC]

This happens all the time. We aren't supposed to torture people, but that doesn't stop us from letting our freedom loving allies in the war on terror do it for us. This one just had a slightly more flimsy excuse than some of the other ones do, and the guy who got ****ed over was from a country that most Americans have a vague idea about, so it was news.

Well I hope you're wrong that random arabs get picked up and shipped off to prison camps in foriegn countries where they get tortured is considered normal.

[valve bouncer]

Well I hope you're wrong that random arabs get picked up and shipped off to prison camps in foriegn countries where they get tortured is considered normal.
***cough, cough......Guanotanamo Bay (sic)....cough, cough........ :thumb:

[Silver]

Well I hope you're wrong that random arabs get picked up and shipped off to prison camps in foriegn countries where they get tortured is considered normal.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1357699,00.html

[JMAC]

***cough, cough......Guanotanamo Bay (sic)....cough, cough........ :thumb:

Oh yes lol totally forgot about there, but aren;t the people who are being held there all from Iraq, ect. Not like Canadian and American immagrants??

[JMAC]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1357699,00.html

Very interresting......

[mack]

Well... men with blue eyes and blonde hair dont usually blow up airplanes. I hate to say it but racial profiling does work weather you like it or not.

[The Kadvang]

I dont see why little things like this can be such a big deal. People are starving in Africa and thousands dead a month from ethnic cleansing. It seems the world has dismissed Africa as another world and not a problem...


Meanwhile New York donated 20 million for a thing called 'art' that consists of orange curtains... do you have any idea of what 20 million would do in Africa, or how many people it would save?


I think that were all concentrating on the small stuff, unless im missing somthing else...

Thats just rediculous. Sure, what is going on in Africa is terrible. But does that in any way justify the torture of an innocent man through the US Government? No.

[JMAC]

Well... men with blue eyes and blonde hair dont usually blow up airplanes. I hate to say it but racial profiling does work weather you like it or not.

In a way except Timathy Mcvay or wtvr who did the Oklahoma bombing.....wasn;t he blande hair blue eyes???? So no thats just it racial profiling is just that racist. It's like saying all blonde hair blue eyed people are all Nazis. Just doesn;t work, it's wrong and I totally disagree with it. Ever race has it's bad people. :monkey:

[Changleen]

gee, the US sure looks to be evil from this missive. however, i noticed canada is only being blamed for oversight, poor judgment, or some other innocuously flippant excuse for not being held to account, or without the infrastructure for this to happen north of the 49th parallel.

upon closer (or broader) inspection we see that canada employs their own blended version of the patriot act II & bungled INS: security certificates (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnsecurity/securitycertificates_secretevidence.html). add to that, the modus operandi of al-queda: "claim you were tortured" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/01/30/do3004.xml)

what was that again about a "government that answers to no-one"?
Dude. It was the US who shipped him to a foreign country to be tortured. What part of that don't you understand?

[ioscope]

**** race, I didn't care about that **** until first grade when everyone started projecting their **** on me "Don't be racist, don't judge, prejudice, stereotypes blah blah blah"

[TheInedibleHulk]

Well... men with blue eyes and blonde hair dont usually blow up airplanes. I hate to say it but racial profiling does work weather you like it or not.

Arab men dont "usually" blow up airplanes either. The entire arab population is paying for the crimes of a statistically insignificant minority. Now certian "profiling" does work, I can't deny it. If a cop sees a 18 year old black kid in pigtown, baltimore driving a lexus GS400 with 22 inch chrome spinners, you can bet your life he's a drug dealer. But saying that all arabs are suspect is like saying that EVERY 18 year old black kid in baltimore is probabaly a drug dealer, and that's called racism.

[$tinkle]

How overwhelmingly typical.what? pointing out anti-us bias?.. you make absolutely no defense of the actions of the US or actually discuss the pointthe "point" of the story is either to bash the bush administration, or to point out poor policy; which, if the latter, was an incomplete point. enter my replyAnd you know why you have to make accusations and change the subject in every debate?this outta be good ...because your viewpoint is almost always not logically defensable. ya know, that would have been more damning if you actually backed that up; that is to say, make a logically defensible viewpoint....point out bias, you're getting warmer...defend the US's actions by saying they are trying to promote world safetyfor how many years has this administration been making this point already? (namely ashcroft)Personally I think this is tragicof course it is, but we're not here to discuss the personal tradegy, as the story is told by the authorbut I am always wary when I read a report that is obviously written by someone who has an agendahow can you say that but not understand my point of view?However, it is likely that there are facts this reporter did not include, so I'm not going to get up in arms for either side.except when it's me. i'm fine w/ that.Edit: Your second post didnt help you, except to reiterate your self-centric and ethno-centric worldview in which your safety and happiness is more important than that of the rest of the world. The story about the 9/11 hijackers does nothing except prove that you think an entire race should be persecuted for the actions of a few.an entire race, eh? i related an anecdote giving the counterpoint, and you have projected that mindset - not me. if i were to switch it around on you, we should abandon any current or planned racial profiling because of the 9/11 attacks. seems rediculous, no?

i love it when you libs try to race-bait, it usually leads to posts like this one:certian "profiling" does work, I can't deny it. If a cop sees a 18 year old black kid in pigtown, baltimore driving a lexus GS400 with 22 inch chrome spinners, you can bet your life he's a drug dealer.nicely played, whitey

[Changleen]

many thingsSO can you just answer this?:

Do you or do you not think it is completely wrong and reprehensible for the US to send people to a third country to be tortured or otherwise unethically interogated?

[Silver]

Did anyone see Bill Maher's show last week? Tucker Carlson was on (and he was much less of an asshole than he was to Jon Stewart, I wonder if that beatdown still hurts), and the unifying theme that I noticed in every point he made was this: Anything is ok as long as it benefits Americans.

It doesn't matter what the policy is or how it gets implemented, as long as it benefits Americans. Once you start thinking like that, stuff like this makes perfect sense. You can't be too careful, after all...

[$tinkle]

SO can you just answer this?:

Do you or do you not think it is completely wrong and reprehensible for the US to send people to a third country to be tortured or otherwise unethically interogated?i just try and look at it from their point of view

isn't that what you've said?

[TheInedibleHulk]

Stinkle, you dont point out anti-US bias, you assume anti-US bias is present in everything that doesn't blindly support YOUR agenda. The simple fact is everyone has a bias, myself included, but just pointing it out is not a legitimate argument. If you have a viewpoint, defend it, but just criticizing the other viewpoint accomplishes nothing. This article did not "bash" the bush administration. It didnt say George Bush is a giant retarded douche bag. All it did was describe what happened to this man. It's possible some details were left out or embellished to create a slant, but it's also possible that they were not. As for projecting viewpoints, that was the very first thing you did after reading the original post.

[$tinkle]

Stinkle, you dont point out anti-US bias, you assume anti-US bias is present in everything that doesn't blindly support YOUR agenda. The simple fact is everyone has a bias, myself included, but just pointing it out is not a legitimate argument. If you have a viewpoint, defend it, but just criticizing the other viewpoint accomplishes nothing. let's try this again with a couple key sentences from the article:"nothing can excuse the behavior of the United States in this episode. Mr. Arar was deliberately dispatched by U.S. officials to Syria"

"Mr. Arar is the most visible victim of the reprehensible U.S. policy known as extraordinary rendition"

"This is a government that feels it is answerable to no one"do you see the anti-us bias now? notice they don't give the counter-arguments (nor should they in an opinion piece). furthermore, you're telling me it's not only possible, but probable, that a clear thinking conservative (i.e. pro-bush) can ardently be anti-ashcroft? recall this tale of woe begins with a dig at ashcroft (the man), not the AG (the position)
This article did not "bash" the bush administration. It didnt say George Bush is a giant retarded douche bag. All it did was describe what happened to this man. It's possible some details were left out or embellished to create a slant, but it's also possible that they were not. As for projecting viewpoints, that was the very first thing you did after reading the original post.then do tell how then i should infer this part of the story:In the fall of 2002 Mr. Arar, a Canadian citizen, suddenly found himself caught up in the cruel mockery of justice that the Bush administration has substituted for the rule of law in the post-Sept. 11 world. apologies for not explaining what was to me so plain.

[TheInedibleHulk]

The real question here is which came first, the bias that makes the problems(with the bush admin) stand out or the problems that created the bias. While the writer does use negative language to refer to the Bush administration, he does it in the context of a story that backs up his viewpoint. So my point is that he's not just bashing Bush, he's giving legitimate and specific reasons why Bush, and specifically his security policies since 9/11, sucks.

[$tinkle]

from time to time, i will try to consult my new found friend: the rational thinker vs. the paranoid (http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/conspiracy_theory/the_paranoid_mentality/Rational_thinker_versus_paranoid.html)

[Jr_Bullit]

from time to time, i will try to consult my new found friend: the rational thinker vs. the paranoid (http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/conspiracy_theory/the_paranoid_mentality/Rational_thinker_versus_paranoid.html)

wow - nice link :thumb:

So - which do you perceive yourself to be? And which do you perceive others view you as?

[$tinkle]

wow - nice link :thumb:

So - which do you perceive yourself to be? self-centered, of course; just doing you little people a favor & posting nuggets of wisdom.

wait a minute <sniff, sniff>. those aren't "nuggets of wisdom". phew!
And which do you perceive others view you as?preconceived, rigid.

this cute chart - i expect - will be thrown back in my face more than rarely.

how's that for paranoid?