Moving on without the US

[Changleen]

I've thought for a while now that China, Europe and Asia have been quietly getting on with their own agendas while the US administration froths about 'evil' and generally becomes more retarded each day. America is becoming in more and more danger of simply becoming irrelivant if it continues to be guided by idealism directed by the agendas of a few nutjobs. Even the UK is distancing itself from the US, with Tony Blair staying as far away from G-Dub as he can during this latest 'fence-mending' exercise. Anyway, fortunatly for me, someone else has realised this as well! And to my great suprise he's from Time magazine of all places:

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,1029937,00.html

Machiavelli's advice to political leaders was that it's more important to be feared than to be loved. That's no help for President Bush on his European tour; in spite of the warm words he's exchanging with European leaders, the reality is that the Bush administration is neither loved nor feared in growing sectors of the international community — increasingly, it is simply being ignored.

New evidence of this trend, which has developed in the wake of the war in Iraq, emerges every week: Last Friday, Russia's President Vladimir Putin pooh-poohed the U.S. claim that Iran seeks nuclear weapons, and Moscow agreed to move ahead with delivering the nuclear fuel for Tehran's reactors despite Washington's opposition. And in case you missed the message, Russia has also agreed to supply advanced surface-to-air missiles to Syria, the latest focus of U.S. ire in the Middle East — again in defiance of Washington's stated wishes.

It's hard to avoid the irony in Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice's suggestion, in the wake of the fall of Baghdad, that the U.S. should “forgive Russia, ignore Germany and punish France” for opposing the war. On this trip, and Rice's preparatory one, it's more than clear that in fact they're trying hard to forgive France and Germany. And it's equally clear that Russia has no interest in U.S. “forgiveness” — President Putin is ignoring the Bush administration.

Nor is Putin alone in shrugging off U.S. calls to abandon trade deals that threaten Washington's strategic interests. The European Union is going ahead with its plans to lift the arms embargo imposed on China after Tiananmen Square, despite urgings by the Bush administration to avoid selling weapons to Beijing.

In their efforts to put a bright face on the administration's diminishing strategic influence, the Bush administration is accentuating the positive — the Europeans have agreed, they point out, to help train Iraqi security forces. Sure, they've agreed to train 1,000 Iraqis a year at a location outside of Iraq. To put that in perspective, the current U.S. goal is to train a further 200,000 Iraqis by October 1 — in other words, the NATO contribution will amount to 0.5 percent of the total. That's a little like the geopolitical equivalent of a Hallmark good-luck greeting card.

Iraq, of course, is where the problem began in earnest, even before the war. By pressing ahead to war two years ago without the evidence to back its case and without waiting for UN inspectors to complete their work, the Bush administration inadvertently created a rupture in the international system of alliances that has proved disastrous. It created a situation where longtime U.S. allies found themselves with no choice but to say no to Washington on a strategic priority — and then not only to face no negative consequences, but to see the U.S. struggle under the weight of its occupation mission and then return to Europe calling for fences to be mended without the Europeans having changed their position. Well, not quite true: a number of European countries have changed their positions — they've pulled their troops out of Iraq. As the old gangster movie adage goes, "You run this town only because people think you run this town." Now when President Bush comes calling offering quotes from French existentialists — “Albert Camus said that freedom is a long distance race,” the president said Monday — sweet talk about the environment and promises to make the Israeli-Palestinian peace process a top priority, the Europeans know the reason is that Washington has been humbled by events. Indeed, it may be a measure of how the strategic balance has shifted that President Bush not only tosses around bon-mots from the existentialists; he hosts a dinner for President Chirac — a European leader he plainly detests, and who has not given an inch in his opposition to U.S. policy in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East. France won't even consent to U.S. pressure to make the relatively meaningless gesture of putting Hezbollah on a terrorist list.

The net effect of Operation Iraqi Freedom has not been to make U.S. enemies tremble in the face of American power. Instead, it has made them more aware of the limits of that power. A two-year occupation by 150,000 U.S. troops has failed to subdue an insurgency by a Sunni Muslim force that U.S. officials insist numbers no more than 12,000. Today, U.S. officials concede that the insurgency can't be defeated militarily, and it has long been evident to the Europeans and others that Washington's military resources are badly overstretched by the mission in Iraq — and that Washington's bean-counters are not amused by the $5 billion monthly bill for its operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iran may be sandwiched between Iraq and Afghanistan, but it's not acting as if it believes it's in any danger of being invaded. And in light of the difficulties it has faced in Iraq, it's hard to imagine the U.S. managing to invade and occupy a country three times as large and as populous as Iraq, an unlikely to be any more welcoming of American troops than the Iraqis have been.

The Europeans certainly welcome the shift in tone from Washington, but that won't alter the fundamental strategic differences that transcend the common values President Bush tried to highlight. Look no further than Iran for a reminder that the transatlantic strategic divisions that opened over Iraq are, if anything, even wider than they were two years ago. The U.S. and Europe certainly agree that a nuclear-armed Iran would be a bad idea, but their ways of dealing with the problem remain poles apart. The Europeans are trying to negotiate a deal that takes account of what they deem Tehran's legitimate security concerns — i.e. fear of being attacked and toppled — and offers Iran guarantees and incentives to stay off the nuclear path. Fine, says the Bush administration. We hope that works, but don't expect us to be part of it. But the U.S. is, rightly or wrongly, the very personification of Iran's security concerns, and any deal offered to Tehran is meaningless without Washington's involvement.

Administration hawks may think they're cleverly lining up support for tougher action on Iran by letting diplomacy run its course and fail. If so, they could be in for a nasty surprise. The Europeans will almost certainly blame the U.S. refusal to come to the table for the failure of diplomacy. And they're unlikely to see a nuclear-armed Iran as a reason to start yet another war in the Middle East. Don't worry says Bush, Iran is different from Iraq — Saddam violated 16 UN resolutions, while the Iran matter hasn't even gone to the UN yet. The operative word, of course, is “yet.” Rice made clear that the U.S. intends to take the matter there, and has been lobbying to unseat IAEA chief Dr. Mohammed ElBaradei to help ease the path to refer Tehran to the Security Council. ElBaradei has refused to endorse Washington's charge that Iran is covertly running a weapons program, despite demanding more transparency and cooperation from Tehran. But the Europeans are opposing Bush administration efforts to unseat him, perhaps more mindful than the Bushies are of just how much credibility the U.S. lost in international eyes by the total collapse in the face of reality of the case for war against Iraq it presented to the UN two years ago. And even if Washington did manage to get the Iran matter onto the Security Council agenda, its chances of getting the Council to pass the sort of resolution Washington wants are negligible. President Putin has signaled Russia is in Tehran's corner on this one, and China's $30 billion investment in Iran's oil and natural gas fields make it a relative certainty that Beijing would veto any resolution designed to impose sanctions or otherwise isolate Tehran.

The rift between the U.S. and Europe is evident on issues as diverse as the Kyoto treaty and the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo. But it's likely to be felt most acutely in the strategic realm, in which the Europeans plainly no longer see themselves as hitched to the U.S. on matters of global conflict and security. The Europeans will make their own policy on Iraq, building their own relationships with its new government independently of the U.S. And presumably, so will others — as power shifts toward a government dominated by groups historically closer to Iran than they are to the U.S., don't be surprised to see China step forward with aid and investment.

All over the world, new bonds of trade and strategic cooperation are being forged around the U.S. China has not only begun to displace the U.S. as the dominant player in the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation organization (APEC), it is fast emerging as the major trading partner to some of Latin America's largest economies. The European decision to lift its arms embargo may reflect an awareness of the strategic significance of Beijing's emergence as an economic power — a dynamic that will dwarf the U.S. war with al-Qaeda in terms of its impact on the global strategic balance. And as it emerges alongside other new players such as India and Brazil, the U.S. will find itself forced to engage with a growing share of the international community that no longer deems it necessary to subordinate their own interests to Washington's, nor to assume that the two are one and the same. French foreign policy think tanks have long promoted the goal of “multipolarity” in a post-Cold War world, i.e. the preference for many different, competing power centers rather than the “unipolarity” of the U.S. as a single hyper-power. Multipolarity is no longer simply a strategic goal. It is an emerging reality.

[N8]

I've thought for a while now that China (Larry), Europe (Curly) and Asia (Moe) have been quietly getting on with their own agendas....



Ah... the Three Stooges....


http://www.theclubhouse1.net/museum/images/stooges3.jpg

[mack]

Yeah, Id expect more ass kicking from a Texan. :nuts:

[Changleen]

Hey Mack you just made the 50,000 post in the Political forum.

[golgiaparatus]

Everyone knows that Bush is a complete moronic tool that has a head the size of the goodyear blimp... What sucks is that when he is gone the worlds distaste for the US will probably remain for years.

As foreveryone thumbing their nose to the US... its interesting, after 1 slip up, to watch them spit on us after all the help we have given over the years. Its too bad we cant keep our nose out of the world's business because it'd be funny to see all the cries for help we'd get. Personally Id like to see the US pull back and say f**k you world, we are doing our own thing for a while. And when you are planning something sneaky, dont forget the fact that we have more nukes in our backyard than all of you put together.

[llkoolkeg]

Everyone knows that Bush is a complete moronic tool that has a head the size of the goodyear blimp... What sucks is that when he is gone the worlds distaste for the US will probably remain for years.

As foreveryone thumbing their nose to the US... its interesting, after 1 slip up, to watch them spit on us after all the help we have given over the years. Its too bad we cant keep our nose out of the world's business because it'd be funny to see all the cries for help we'd get. Personally Id like to see the US pull back and say f**k you world, we are doing our own thing for a while. And when you are planning something sneaky, dont forget the fact that we have more nukes in our backyard than all of you put together.

Regarding President Bush, we've had worse. Regarding the article, mildly interesting take on things. Regarding extricating ourselves from the world community, not wise or possible. Regarding nukes, China has more and bigger nukes...ours are just more efficient and precise.

[JMAC]

Yeah the US is being stupid, well I guess I should say the US government but the US people DID elect him....I was actaully amazed how much hatred there is in Europe toward the US. This is from personal experience on my europe trip talking to people in both France and the Netherlands about America, the french really seemed to hate the US.
Thing is Europe doesn't need the US, they really don't when you look at it from peurely economics the EU doesn;t need anything from the US.
I don;t think the US will last like it is now for to much longer, even Canada is trying to distance its self and that hard to do. :eviltongu

[N8]

Yeah the US is being stupid, well I guess I should say the US government but the US people DID elect him....I was actaully amazed how much hatred there is in Europe toward the US. This is from personal experience on my europe trip talking to people in both France and the Netherlands about America, the french really seemed to hate the US.
Thing is Europe doesn't need the US, they really don't when you look at it from peurely economics the EU doesn;t need anything from the US.
I don;t think the US will last like it is now for to much longer, even Canada is trying to distance its self and that hard to do. :eviltongu


Canada's who identity is based on the US... without the US, Canada is less than nada...

[JMAC]

Canada's who identity is based on the US... without the US, Canada is less than nada...

Not really, Canada is loved worldwide much more than the US. We actaully contribute to the world a fair bit. You really shouldn;t make a statement like than when you're not Canadian. Thats almost as stupid as me saying the US is nothing without Canada.

[chicodude]

We actaully contribute to the world a fair bit. .



Not since hockey was cancelled

[jon cross]

We actaully contribute to the world a fair bit. You really shouldn;t make a statement like than when you're not Canadian

Absolutely right. No more complaining about Canada unless you're Canadian. and no more complaining about America if you're not American. You're officially disregarded.

[Silver]

Absolutely right. No more complaining about Canada unless you're Canadian. and no more complaining about America if you're not American. You're officially disregarded.

Actually, I think I've had more than one of the frothers make that remark to me about the US before...

[jon cross]

It would be a retarded comment no matter who said it- in this case, retarded as well as hypocritical.

Some people see problems and do what they can to fix them. Some people see problems and complain without offering a solution- where I come from, we call someone like that a b.itch.

[jaydee]

Absolutely right. No more complaining about Canada unless you're Canadian. and no more complaining about America if you're not American. You're officially disregarded.

I agree you can't complain about Canadians or Americans for internal policies unless you're a citizen, but you can complain about a country's intrusive foreign policies. American foreign policy since WWII has been to meddle in other countries' politics for their own financial or strategic benefit, by arming and training one side to defeat the other, or going in and knocking off leaders and governments. They have had some good effects in some cases, but almost inadvertently. Canada's foreign policy seems to be mostly attempting to keep peace in wartorn areas and providing resources for rebuilding after wars and disasters. In Canada we don't really believe in the concept of a global "manifest destiny" as defined by the US.

[ummbikes]

American foreign policy since WWII has been to meddle in other countries' politics for their own financial or strategic benefit, by arming and training one side to defeat the other, or going in and knocking off leaders and governments.

Half true, Canada isn't an aggressor as wars and "liberations".

Economics, well that is another story...

My good friend, we'll call him Chad, sells building trusses. He now has has to compete with with companies from your island, and greater B.C. because your government kicks in massive subsidies for the wood used to make the trusses. Canada is a great place, I love to visit, I love the culture, I enjoy the people I have met, but lets not kid ourselves, Canada is an economic bad ass and in certain areas have done major damage to it's neighbor to the south. So cut the warm and fuzzy crap, you guys are just like America, just not quite so willing to huck bombs. :eviltongu :rolleyes: :)

[Jr_Bullit]

Thanks for the article Changleen...it's one of the more well thought out and well-written articles I've seen in this area of RM in...well...a very long time.

[fluff]

I agree you can't complain about Canadians or Americans for internal policies unless you're a citizen, but you can complain about a country's intrusive foreign policies.

Whose rules? Are they written down?

[Changleen]

Thanks for the article Changleen...it's one of the more well thought out and well-written articles I've seen in this area of RM in...well...a very long time.:) Thanks.

[Changleen]

Whose rules? Are they written down?I didn't get that memo either. I guess that means we can talk about whatever we want still. Phew.

[preppie]

....I was actaully amazed how much hatred there is in Europe toward the US. This is from personal experience on my europe trip talking to people in both France and the Netherlands about America, the french really seemed to hate the US.
Thing is Europe doesn't need the US, they really don't when you look at it from peurely economics the EU doesn;t need anything from the US.
I don;t think the US will last like it is now for to much longer, even Canada is trying to distance its self and that hard to do. :eviltongu

My uncle moved his business from the US to Morocco and China last year,
and suddenly he finds investors like never before...and not only because the labor is cheaper over there.
Most European companies prefer to invest in China and surrounding regions lately.
One of the biggest reasons why they are slowly moving away from the US is the 'debt' that the US has at this moment.
The "buy everything on credit" way of living scares the bejeezus out of the Europeans and they choose the more 'safe' and fast developing China for their future investments.

..and yes it's true, most Europeans are sick of the American arrogance, their fighting for freedom or policing the world.

But we all know not ALL US citizens are pro-bush.

[Jr_Bullit]

Funny - prior to Bush - the dislike of Americans was still out there, as was the arrogance and so on...the attitude you describe still existed in a significant portion of the American population...why now is Bush the scapegoat for a type of attitude that really does dominate much of the American culture?

[fluff]

Believe me the US under Clinton was much more popular here than the US is under Bush.

[preppie]

Funny - prior to Bush - the dislike of Americans was still out there, as was the arrogance and so on...the attitude you describe still existed in a significant portion of the American population...why now is Bush the scapegoat for a type of attitude that really does dominate much of the American culture?


Most Europeans where pro-American or at least NOT anti, when Clinton was president. (it’s a fact)

This changed when G.W. Bush was elected....especially when Bush was elected the second time.
The second time he was elected by a lot more people than the first time, this tends
us to believe that the majority of the US is happy with what he’s doing and how he’s doing it.
I think his foreign politics changed a lot on how Europeans look at the US and it’s going to take awhile before these ‘things’ are forgotten and forgiven.
People will always generalize, that’s the reason why I used -pro-Bush- as an example.

[llkoolkeg]

Yeah the US is being stupid, well I guess I should say the US government but the US people DID elect him....I was actaully amazed how much hatred there is in Europe toward the US. This is from personal experience on my europe trip talking to people in both France and the Netherlands about America, the french really seemed to hate the US.
Thing is Europe doesn't need the US, they really don't when you look at it from peurely economics the EU doesn;t need anything from the US.
I don;t think the US will last like it is now for to much longer, even Canada is trying to distance its self and that hard to do. :eviltongu

Yes, America is stupid. Our government is stupid. Americans, whose intellectual accomplishment is based upon who they voted for in the last election, are likewise stupid. We are hated in Europe as we are hated in the Middle East and in Asia and even in tiny little New Zealand. The French hate us, the Dutch hate us and even our little brother to the North hates us and no longer wishes to tag along on our adventures. Based peurely on economics, the EU doesn't need Americans or anything of America. America is on the cusp of delighting its many detractors by giving up the ghost. America contributes nothing positive to the world. America should close down the lemonade stand, pack it up into the garage and go sulk like Achilles in his tent.

Maybe if the world eventually missed us and wanted to be our friend again, we could be more like them. We could stop working so many more hours and taking fewer vacations. We could stop employing so many people, creating so many innovations and buying so many foreign goods and services. We could start paying higher taxes on everything. We could stop contributing so much money to relief efforts throughout the world, because if we'd just stop causing all these wars and natural disasters, people wouldn't need relief. We should eliminate our military and close down all their support bases throughout the world, because they only exist as spying, destructive and influence mechanisms for the machine. We should shut down our businesses, as they only exist to subjugate the less fortunate peoples of the world and to make our greedy rich richer so that they can hire presidents who will do their bidding. When people come here for educations or jobs or for asylum, we should invite them all in with open arms, feed them, clothe them, heal them, support them and do our best to improve their lives. We're bound to have the spare change given how much oil wealth we are stealing from the A-rabs.

Please, dear world- will you love us and be our friend again? We pinky swear not to elect anyone else you don't approve of ever, ever again. We're sorry for being so stupid, but we rely on our TV's to tell us what to think so PLEASE OH PLEASE won't you be our friend?

If yes, mark "yes". If no, mark "no".

YES NO

[fluff]

Yes, America is stupid. Our government is stupid. Americans, whose intellectual accomplishment is based upon who they voted for in the last election, are likewise stupid. We are hated in Europe as we are hated in the Middle East and in Asia and even in tiny little New Zealand. The French hate us, the Dutch hate us and even our little brother to the North hates us and no longer wishes to tag along on our adventures. Based peurely on economics, the EU doesn't need Americans or anything of America. America is on the cusp of delighting its many detractors by giving up the ghost. America contributes nothing positive to the world. America should close down the lemonade stand, pack it up into the garage and go sulk like Achilles in his tent.

Maybe if the world eventually missed us and wanted to be our friend again, we could be more like them. We could stop working so many more hours and taking fewer vacations. We could stop employing so many people, creating so many innovations and buying so many foreign goods and services. We could start paying higher taxes on everthing. We could stop contributing so much money to relief efforts throughout the world, because if we'd just stop causing all these wars and natural disasters, people wouldn't need relief. We should eliminate our military and close down all their support bases throughout the world, because they only exist as spying, destructive and influence mechanisms for the machine. We should shut down our businesses, as they only exist to subjugate the less fortunate peoples of the world and to make our greedy rich richer so that they can hire presidents who will do their bidding. When people come here for educations or jobs or for asylum, we should invite them all in with open arms, feed them, clothe them, heal them, support them and do our best to improve their lives. We're bound to have the spare change given how much oil wealth we are stealing from the A-rabs.

Please, dear world- will you love us and be our friend again? We pinky swear not to elect anyone else you don't approve of ever, ever again. We're sorry for being so stupid, but we rely on our TV's to tell us what to think so PLEASE OH PLEASE won't you be our friend?

If yes, mark "yes". If no, mark "no".

YES NO
Substitute British Empire for America and you could have gone a couple of hundred years back in time.

The US is not the source of all evil, yet neither is it the source of all virtue. The problem is that the perception of much of the rest of the world is that there is more evil than virtue coming out of the USA.

[ALEXIS_DH]

a canadian is an american without guns.

[-BB-]

I've thought for a while now that China, Europe and Asia have been quietly getting on with their own agendas while the US administration froths about 'evil' and generally becomes more retarded each day. America is becoming in more and more danger of simply becoming irrelivant if it continues to be guided by idealism directed by the agendas of a few nutjobs. Even the UK is distancing itself from the US, with Tony Blair staying as far away from G-Dub as he can during this latest 'fence-mending' exercise. Anyway, fortunatly for me, someone else has realised this as well! And to my great suprise he's from Time magazine of all places:



Know what Changleen.... the thing that you are missing in all of this is that most people DON'T CARE. Good, I hope this is true. Now every other country won't look to us to fix the world's problems. Who is providing the vast majority of the logistical support for the tsunami relief?
The US
Who provides the majority of the troops for stuff in Africa (Congo aside... that was a French colony)

Know what I say?
F europe
F China
F Russia...

Don't need them, and never will.
I don't want us to be a super power. Maybe AlQueada will go bomb YOUR country and leave us the F alone.
:nopity:

[fluff]

Who is providing the vast majority of the logistical support for the tsunami relief?

Wasn't it actually India?

[-BB-]

Wasn't it actually India?

Monitary relief, maybe.... but not the logistical stuff.
We are the only ones with enough boats, helicopters... stuff like that.

And the $$$ we spend on doing actual relief work is NOT included in the $350 mill that was promised.

[llkoolkeg]

Wasn't it actually India?

The key word was "logistical" and as far as India goes, heck- you'd think they wouldn't turn a blind eye to their own people. External support is a different issue altogether.

[fluff]

Monitary relief, maybe.... but not the logistical stuff.
We are the only ones with enough boats, helicopters... stuff like that.

And the $$$ we spend on doing actual relief work is NOT included in the $350 mill that was promised.
How many boats did the US provide?

[N8]

Substitute British Empire for America and you could have gone a couple of hundred years back in time.

The US is not the source of all evil, yet neither is it the source of all virtue. The problem is that the perception of much of the rest of the world is that there is more evil than virtue coming out of the USA.


Meh... that's what happens when you are Top Dawg... all the lil' puppies try to take pop-shots at you. Comes with the territory.

Besides Americans spend less time thinking about Europe, China, or Canada than they think about what parking space they will get at the mall.

[Changleen]

Besides Americans spend less time thinking about Europe, China, or Canada than they think about what parking space they will get at the mall.And that doesn't concern you at all?

[fluff]

How many boats did the US provide?

Anyone know the answer?
Or was the original poster just hoping they were right?

[fluff]

Meh... that's what happens when you are Top Dawg... all the lil' puppies try to take pop-shots at you. Comes with the territory.

Besides Americans spend less time thinking about Europe, China, or Canada than they think about what parking space they will get at the mall.

Which clearly demonstrates that the Europeans are idiots and the US is as virtuous as it believes itself to be.

Or perhaps it proves nothing of the sort.

I doubt you care.

[-BB-]

Anyone know the answer?
Or was the original poster just hoping they were right?

Mind giving me a chance to answer before you start spouting off? I was in a meeting. :rolleyes:

To answer your Question...
The U.S. relief effort, as of Jan. 7 includes 15,000 military personnel, more than 20 Navy ships in or en route to the Indian Ocean, one Coast Guard ship, 32 cargo aircraft, nine reconnaissance planes and 50 helicopters.

Now let me ask you something

How many did ANYONE else provide?

[N8]

Which clearly demonstrates that the Europeans are idiots and the US is as virtuous as it believes itself to be.

Or perhaps it proves nothing of the sort.

I doubt you care.


Hang on a sec lemme check.......




:ummmm:






...nope....

Don't care.

[fluff]

Mind giving me a chance to answer before you start spouting off? I was in a meeting. :rolleyes:

To answer your Question...
The U.S. relief effort, as of Jan. 7 includes 15,000 military personnel, more than 20 Navy ships in or en route to the Indian Ocean, one Coast Guard ship, 32 cargo aircraft, nine reconnaissance planes and 50 helicopters.

Now let me ask you something

How many did ANYONE else provide?

http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=4378

Even as it coped with the tsunami’s impact at home, India moved decisively to help its neighbors.

In spite of the subtle allusions to a helpless and savaged region, India’s capabilities should never have been an issue.

On December 27, 2004 — within hours of the tsunami — an Indian naval hospital arrived at Sri Lanka’s Trincomalee harbor, followed by helicopter-equipped corvettes and other ships for search and rescue.

The Indian air force added muscle to the effort, using heavy-lift transporters to deliver fully-staffed field hospitals and clinics, as well as its own Mi-17 helicopters to airdrop relief supplies.

The Indian relief mission outstripped those of all other powers in the region, involved over 20,000 military personnel and almost 35 warships — operating in an arc from the Maldives to Indonesia.

For a variety of reasons, this colossal deployment went largely unnoticed in the rest of the world. Observed by bemused Indian sailors, the world media made a beeline on January 10, 2005, to welcome the USS Duluth to Sri Lanka — two weeks after the arrival of India’s navy to assist with relief operations.
__________________________________
Oddly enough this is from an article about how the world (& the US) didn't notice...

[Changleen]

Russia dispatched over 20 cargo planes in the first 24hrs, and the UN ended up sending over 100 boats of various discriptions, so it wasn't like the US single handedly saved the day here or anything, let alone the reasons why they did it (see Condi's 'Wonderful opportunity') - But anyway, what does this have to do with China, Europe and Asia emerging alliances and the US being left out of them?

"China launched 4 new state of the art science and military satellites this month, and is sharing the data and costs with Europe"
"Yeah, so what? The US contributed more to the Tsunami relief fund than everyone!"
:confused:

[$tinkle]

"China launched 4 new state of the art science and military satellites this month, and is sharing the data and costs with Europe"as well they should, seeing how they are using "shared" [stolen] technology

[Changleen]

as well they should, seeing how they are using "shared" [stolen] technologyOK, I'll bite.. Please tell me about how the Chinese stole all their technology...

[clancy98]

man I'd be pretty wary citing anyone who uses the term "Pooh-poohed" in a professional publication. But hey, run what ya brung right?

[fluff]

man I'd be pretty wary citing anyone who uses the term "Pooh-poohed" in a professional publication. But hey, run what ya brung right?

Is that really the best you can come up with?

[JMAC]

Half true, Canada isn't an aggressor as wars and "liberations".

Economics, well that is another story...

My good friend, we'll call him Chad, sells building trusses. He now has has to compete with with companies from your island, and greater B.C. because your government kicks in massive subsidies for the wood used to make the trusses. Canada is a great place, I love to visit, I love the culture, I enjoy the people I have met, but lets not kid ourselves, Canada is an economic bad ass and in certain areas have done major damage to it's neighbor to the south. So cut the warm and fuzzy crap, you guys are just like America, just not quite so willing to huck bombs. :eviltongu :rolleyes: :)

You seem confused....The US starts wars and helps in wars for it's own economic benefits. Canada doesn;t do that, not our government, some companies try and do take advantages of situations but there's a HUGE difference here. BTW Canada is nothing like the US, we're two very different cultures I'm both American and Canadian so I;m nto speaking out of my ass about this....

[$tinkle]

OK, I'll bite.. Please tell me about how the Chinese stole all their technology...just follow the breadcrumbs, mate Mao pajama suits now much baggier and more ill-fitting. Think they came up with that "Tickle Me Mao" on their own? Kung fu movie dialog suddenly in synch with the images. Most popular fast food dish at McFong's: McBeef with Snow Peas and McWontons. "Secret" Kung Pao sauce bears striking resemblance to thousand island dressing. President Jiang Zemin seen wearing one of those baseball caps that holds two beer cans. Rice now flavored with "The Chairman's" secret blend of 11 herbs and spices. Traffic accidents increase dramatically with availability of new "bike phones." New missiles are now armed with clapper-activated Chia warheads. New "Jerry Springroll" TV show features embarrassingly ignorant peasants beating each other silly over infidelities. Meals are now eaten in half the time, thanks to the wondrous new invention, the "fork." Surprisingly sophisticated special effects in the new movie "Episode 1: Jackie Chan and the Phantom Menace."

[$tinkle]

You seem confused....The US starts wars and helps in wars for it's own economic benefits. Canada doesn;t do that, not our government, some companies try and do take advantages of situations but there's a HUGE difference here. BTW Canada is nothing like the US, we're two very different cultures I'm both American and Canadian so I;m nto speaking out of my ass about this....really? then where do you get such wonderful toys? (http://www.seaforthhighlanders.ca/video.html)

[JMAC]

But we all know not ALL US citizens are pro-bush.

You couldn;t be more right about that, it's almost equal and if everyone actaully voted things might be different. Believe me I have alot of American friends and they're great people. Same with Bush people alot of them are great people, my entirely US family are all utra Bush lovers. It's hard to talk politics with them but I love them just as much....

[JMAC]

really? then where do you get such wonderful toys? (http://www.seaforthhighlanders.ca/video.html)

We use our forces to actaully stop people fighting like in Rwanda or anywhere. Canada is known as the peacekeepers. :thumb:

[$tinkle]

forgot to add:
weapons systems (http://www.house.gov/hunter/ChinaWeapons.htm)
type 094 submarine (http://www.taiwandc.org/washt9908.htm)

you ever heard of wen ho lee? there was quite a dust-up over here during the clinton administration (coincidence, i'm sure). go googling: <"wen ho lee" "los alamos" espionage> & read all about the louis freeh bungling of his case

compare GM's [they're american] Spark minicar and Chery Automobile Corp.'s [they're Chinese] QQ model

in 1999, Chrysler [they're american] CEO Robert Eton was made aware that knock-offs of Chrysler's Jeep Cherokee had been seen on the streets of Beijing [this city is currently in china].

but, we're not so special: the "Red Flag" sedan was identical to the Audi 5000 [made in germany] right down to the last nut and bolt - with the single exception of a plastic red-flag hood ornament.

howsa bout software? surely, even the telegraph has reported this. i'll pass along a salon.com (http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/09/26/piracy_unlimited/) link detailing micro$oft's battle with china's 92% piracy rate.

do you understand motivations behind regional DVD encoding?

let me know if i can open your mind a little more on this rather obscure topic

[$tinkle]

We use our forces to actaully stop people fighting like in Rwanda or anywhere. Canada is known as the peacekeepers. :thumb:so who got killed by our pilots a few years back in afghanistan? were you guys passing out fertilizer for the poppy fields & hummus to the natives?

[JMAC]

so who got killed by our pilots a few years back in afghanistan? were you guys passing out fertilizer for the poppy fields & hummus to the natives?

Umm yeah your ****ing retarded pliots killed our soldiers....Do you know what the Canadaian soldiers were doing there? No, do i? No....but I do know that teh afghanistan thing was actaully supported by many countries. Now Iraq, Canada has opposed this from the start and has refused any participation in it. Give up. :dancing:

[fluff]

Umm yeah your ****ing retarded pliots killed our soldiers....

And now the US has robots to kill their allies' troops. (http://67.19.50.55/forums/showthread.php?t=110566)

[-BB-]

http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=4378

Even as it coped with the tsunami’s impact at home, India moved decisively to help its neighbors.

In spite of the subtle allusions to a helpless and savaged region, India’s capabilities should never have been an issue.

On December 27, 2004 — within hours of the tsunami — an Indian naval hospital arrived at Sri Lanka’s Trincomalee harbor, followed by helicopter-equipped corvettes and other ships for search and rescue.

The Indian air force added muscle to the effort, using heavy-lift transporters to deliver fully-staffed field hospitals and clinics, as well as its own Mi-17 helicopters to airdrop relief supplies.

The Indian relief mission outstripped those of all other powers in the region, involved over 20,000 military personnel and almost 35 warships — operating in an arc from the Maldives to Indonesia.

For a variety of reasons, this colossal deployment went largely unnoticed in the rest of the world. Observed by bemused Indian sailors, the world media made a beeline on January 10, 2005, to welcome the USS Duluth to Sri Lanka — two weeks after the arrival of India’s navy to assist with relief operations.
__________________________________
Oddly enough this is from an article about how the world (& the US) didn't notice...


ok... 15,000 vs 20,000. I stand corrected.
Just as you mention in your post, this is stuff that goes un noticed for BOTH sides though, so you can't point your finger and say we aren't doing anything.
You don't like the US, fine... That is your opinion.
My opinion is that I could care less if we are THE superpower or if everyone else looks to us for help. ;)

[fluff]

ok... 15,000 vs 20,000. I stand corrected.
Just as you mention in your post, this is stuff that goes un noticed for BOTH sides though, so you can't point your finger and say we aren't doing anything.
You don't like the US, fine... That is your opinion.
My opinion is that I could care less if we are THE superpower or if everyone else looks to us for help. ;)
Well, I didn't say I didn't like the US, I was merely pointing out that:
1) The US didn't provide the most support
and
2) They automatically assume that they did.

So many other 'truths' as percieved by US citizen should be examined in closer detail.

Unless of course they are so insular that they care nothing about the rest of the planet, in which case they can hardly complain if they are thought arrogant and foolish.

[JMAC]

Well, I didn't say I didn't like the US, I was merely pointing out that:
1) The US didn't provide the most support
and
2) They automatically assume that they did.

So many other 'truths' as percieved by US citizen should be examined in closer detail.

Unless of course they are so insular that they care nothing about the rest of the planet, in which case they can hardly complain if they are thought arrogant and foolish.

Wise words my friend :thumb:

[-BB-]

Well, I didn't say I didn't like the US, I was merely pointing out that:
1) The US didn't provide the most support
and
2) They automatically assume that they did.

So many other 'truths' as percieved by US citizen should be examined in closer detail.

Unless of course they are so insular that they care nothing about the rest of the planet, in which case they can hardly complain if they are thought arrogant and foolish.

I know that we didn't give the most $$, but I heard that we gave the most logistics... so sue me.

[JMAC]

I know that we didn't give the most $$, but I heard that we gave the most logistics... so sue me.

Oh yes that was very helpfull ;) I actaully think Australia might hold that position anyway :p . The US was actaully not even 2nd in the most money giving, Germany, China ect were all well ahead. Canada was close behind :stupid:

[Ciaran]

Some people see problems and do what they can to fix them. Some people see problems and complain without offering a solution- where I come from, we call someone like that a b.itch.

Just because one doesn't have the solution to the problem, does not mean that one should not point out the problem.

[jaydee]

a canadian is an american without guns.

Not even close, and I don't mean that in any derogatory way.

[mack]

Hey Mack you just made the 50,000 post in the Political forum.


YESSSSS!!! :thumb:


I just wish i had said somthing a little more intelligent... at least i did not spell anything wrong. :D