Rapid rise derailleurs?

[genpowell71]

Alot of the people I ride with are stocking up on the old XTR derailleurs. WHy is everyone not liking the new rapid rise ones?

[oldfart]

Some are afraid to try something different. High normal does work very well and it's not that big a difference really. So if it's not a huge difference why change and have to re-learn how to shift? I am using low normal as it came with the new parts I bought. I got used to it in about a month of rides and now I prefer it. It shifts to low gears perfectly every time.

[Jeff 151]

The low-normal that came on my Gemini works better than any regular derailleur I've ever used. It's so much easier, faster, and smoother to cut away gears (downshift) on climbs. No more grinding, crunching downshifts. Bitch now, but you'll have to come around eventually, because Shimano is making this the new standard.

[Evan Martin]

SRAM is staying low normal

[genpowell71]

So far as I can tell the only difference is the reversal of the shifting on the shifters.

[Jeff 151]

SRAM is staying low normal
Low-normal = Rapid-rise

[oldfart]

SRAM is staying low normal


You meant to say high normal.

As proof of low normal being better was an article in Mountainbike Action stating that high normal was better. I figure when MBA say black, it's really white.

[JRB]

RR shifts much nicer under load. It is really far better when down shifting for a hill. That is my opinion.

[ilikebikes444]

Just don't worry about shimano....just get sram!! :p

[Jeff 151]

Explain why

[recidivist]

Well, this probably doesn't mean jack, but I like to think on a Rapid-Rise low-normal rear der, the spring is 'helping the chain climb the hill' up to bigger cogs. Whereas with high-normal the spring is just 'helping the chain fall down the hill' which it wants to do anyway.

Yeah, not so much.

Anyway, I figure people are just resistant to change. Their brains are all wired one way and now you're asking them to reverse it. Theres probably no good technical reason.

[oh, there might be a good technical reason. On some (all?) shifter systems, with high-normal (i.e. non-RR) ders, the left and right shifters work 'backwards' from each other. i.e. on Gripshift, twisting the left grip towards you makes things harder, while twisting the right grip towards you makes things easier. That's because the front der is low-normal (normally sitting over the granny gear). Rapidrise just makes it consistent in the rear. I've definitely noticed this on road ergo systems. i.e. on Campy, the left thumb button means 'easier' and the right thumb button means 'harder']

[caputo1989]

RR is only good for people who like to do rides like slick rock in moab because of all the transitions. In my opinion shimano will lose customers unless the keep ofering the high-norm.
I also think shimano is trying to find any way to jack up the prices on their goods.

[genpowell71]

I wrote a thread to that effect. I asked if anyone else thought it was wierd that shimano was raising the cost of the derailluers. I can honestly say that the way things are going, when I get my new frame this spring, I'll be buying sram. Besides my buddy has an XO rear derailluer and XTR shift pods and the day I borrowed it I was impressed that it shifter better than my XTR and XTR on my tracer. So go with what works is what I say...

[MtnbikeMike]

If rapid rise is so good, why isn't road going that way?

Genpowell, XO der w/ XTR pods? I though the different actuation ratio made them incompatible.

[Jeff 151]

RR is only good for people who like to do rides like slick rock in moab because of all the transitions.

Seriously caputo, what are you talking about?

[genpowell71]

That was supposed to be X9, not X0

[Jeff 151]

I have a Japanese pen-pal who's a janitor in the Shimano building. He likes to snoop around and recently he wrote me: Ding shong si woww, ahooda li heneu di honga matsui. That translates to: Rapid-rise, coming soon to a road derailleur near you.

[genpowell71]

I guess we HAVE to include you roadies in this too.

[Jeff 151]

You can include deez nuts! No, just kidding. As stated in an earlier post in this thread, I have a Gemini with rapid-rise. Mountain biker first and foremost. I do have a road bike though. The speed and handling on pavement is like nothing you can achieve on a mountain bike. But road will always be a hobby. Mountain is life.

[El Caballo]

I like Rapid Rise. I got a bike with it back in 1998 or 1999, when it first came out and everyone hated it.

The first year also had an Avid Rollamajig built in so the rear cable routing was great -- this lasted until Avid sued them for patent infringment.

8-speed XT RapidFire shifters and first-year XTR Rapid Rise: in my opinion, nothing before or since has shifted better. Although people are talking enough about SRAM 1:1 that I may have to try it out.

[Hello Kitty]

I suggest you go with the sram X.0 and you can have the triggers or twist shift what ever makes you comfortable. I’ve had Shimano XTR on all my bikes since 1996 never giving sram a second look when the “new” 03 XTR came out I was one of the first folks to have it yeah the shifting was weird at first and shifting from the levers was a novel idea. However you really had to keep things adjusted just right and the Specialized S-works epic I had it on really tested my patience.

I didn’t like the epic and sold it the Titus racer x that I test rode had sram X.0 with the grip shift that 1 hour test ride convinced me to go with the bike and the sram. The stuff is that good!! It was like an upgrade from the XTR stuff. You can still get the older XTR stuff pretty easy just as you can get the old 8 speed xt/xtr cassettes still but my endorsement go to sram it just works better.

I’ve seen the rear der. and grip shift kit on line for $175 and that’s a pretty good deal

[rpet]

I've been on Rapid Rise for a couple years now, and I vastly prefer it.
#1) I find downshifting during a climb to be quicker and less prone to grinding.

#2) My shifting technique works well with RR. I'm not one of those guys who pedals halfway up a hill in too high of a gear and then needs a 6-cog shift to get into a realistic gear for the remainder of the hill. Instead, I slowly downshift one gear at a time as my momentum falls off during the climb. Rapid rise make single-cog downshifts a no-brainer.

I also like how with RR, front & rear shifters work the same (index finger = downshift / thumb = upshift).

However - I don't own a roadbike, and I could see switching back & forth between the 2 systems could be a pain.

IMHO - all MTBs should have been Low-Normal from the outset. Forcing RapidRise on the masses is IMHO one of the few "good" things that Shimano has done in quite some time. (That being said, I despise Shimano for many other reasons and wish I could buy a Low-normal midcage derailleur from someone else!)

-rob

[genpowell71]

Well, I just got back from getting a RR on my hardtail and so far it shifts pretty d*mn good. I'll report later this week when I go out to bargram to put it through a beating

[Evan Martin]

Oops, wasn't thinking, ment high-normal.

Anyways, while I can see how Rapid Rise/Low Normal is good for XC and climing and not forcing the drivetrain, it's the biggest pain when downhilling. If you blow a turn, you need to wait for chain to shift down on the ramps, while with a high-normal or SRAM drivetrain, you can shift several gears in one go. This really applies to DH racing, where if you're stuck in a high gear and can't quickly downshift to get your speed back up, you lose lots on the clock.

[Jeff 151]

Have you used rapid-rise? You can downshift multiple gears as fast or faster than with a high-normal derailleur.

[Hello Kitty]

Have you used rapid-rise? You can downshift multiple gears as fast or faster than with a high-normal derailleur.

you can do the same with the sram X.0 grip shift :thumb:

[Weaver]

you can do the same with the sram X.0 grip shift :thumb:


jumping etc can be a nightmare with gripshifts... those are for roadie type XC boyz only.... :rolleyes:

[Weaver]

jumping etc can be a nightmare with gripshifts... those are for roadie type XC boyz only.... :rolleyes:


OOPS!!! hahaha... i thought i had clicked on the bmx forum...no wonder hello $hitty was posting!!! its the lame forum!

[genpowell71]

Kiss my lame forum!!! :nuts:

[JRB]

OOPS!!! hahaha... i thought i had clicked on the bmx forum...no wonder hello $hitty was posting!!! its the lame forum!
Shut up bitch. You know I am "cooler" than you. :think:

[Weaver]

Shut up bitch. You know I am "cooler" than you. :think:


we will meet again someday....we will meet again....

[MikeD]

jumping etc can be a nightmare with gripshifts... those are for roadie type XC boyz only.... :rolleyes:

I guess I'd better trade my Rockgardn jacket in for a sleeveless front-zip jersey, then.

Damn, and all on account of my shift pods. Some of us DHers like grabbing a big handful of gears in either direction, and a few of us can actually hold on to our grips instead of our shifters. I didn't think twist shifter would work well until I rode someone else's bike...then I put them on all my bikes, too.

You're in the XC forum, by the way.

MD

[caputo1989]

I guess I'd better trade my Rockgardn jacket in for a sleeveless front-zip jersey, then.

Damn, and all on account of my shift pods. Some of us DHers like grabbing a big handful of gears in either direction, and a few of us can actually hold on to our grips instead of our shifters. I didn't think twist shifter would work well until I rode someone else's bike...then I put them on all my bikes, too.

You're in the XC forum, by the way.

MD
Im sory!
Id always shif whenever i hit a bump. Theyd be better if they had astiffer twist.

[sanjuro]

I use Shimano Dura Ace Road, XTR and Alivio Shifter Pods with High Normal Derailleurs, and now the new XT Dual Control Shifters with a Low Normal Derailleur.

At first I was a little baffled with the new XT shifters, since I thought the right shifter was the opposite of the road shifter. I was also getting confused with my old shifter pod, and I would shift in the wrong direction frequently.

But a friend pointed something out to me: he criticized the new shifters because you could only shift to an easier gear one lever movement at a time. At first I didn't believe it him, but it was obvious: you have to shift to every bigger cog one hand flick at a time. However, if I put on a HN derailleur, I would have the same shifting ability as I did before.

With mountain biking, where you might hit a surprise rise, and you need to hit those small gears, you can't with the way Shimano ratches their shifters using a LN derailleur. Mountain bikers can definitely use the ability to click 3 gears easier with one motion.

LN derailleurs could have one advantage on the road: upshifting to harder gears is critical for racing, particularily in starts and sprints. Then the ability to shift 3 gears to the smaller cogs with one motion would be helpful. This would also be helpful in any kind of Gated Racing, like 4X or DS. However, you would lose "precision shifts" to the high gears, since LN derailleurs supposedly shift better to the low.

As someone who has done plenty of road races and mountain biking, I have never noticed a disadvantage because I had to click into a gear one at a time, in either direction. Low-Normal may shift better in the low gears and High-Normal into the high, but the shifter has so much to do with.

I think for Low-Normal derailleurs to truly catch on, the ability to shift multiple gears (high or low) with one hand motion is critical. Otherwise, if Campy could convert their road shifter to mountain bikes....

[genpowell71]

I use Shimano Dura Ace Road, XTR and Alivio Shifter Pods with High Normal Derailleurs, and now the new XT Dual Control Shifters with a Low Normal Derailleur.




How do you like those STI levers?

[JRB]

Dumping gears to make it easier is better with rapid rise. Only an uncoordinated oaf would not be able to. It shifts smoother as well to do that, preventing a mangled up mess of a cassette. I will continue to run RR in the foreseeable future. I hate the X0 RD and X9 shifters that I have in a box.

[MikeD]

Dumping gears to make it easier is better with rapid rise. Only an uncoordinated oaf would not be able to. It shifts smoother as well to do that, preventing a mangled up mess of a cassette. I will continue to run RR in the foreseeable future. I hate the X0 RD and X9 shifters that I have in a box.

What's the cage length on that XO, and if it's a mid-cage, wanna sell it?

[JRB]

What's the cage length on that XO, and if it's a mid-cage, wanna sell it?
It's long, but yes, I would sell it. Or trade it.

[Hello Kitty]

I will continue to run RR in the foreseeable future. I hate the X0 RD and X9 shifters that I have in a box.

I guess for the “casual” riders shimano rapid rise would work ok.

[JRB]

I guess for the “casual” riders shimano rapid rise would work ok.
Yeah and grip shift works if you ride your mountain bike on cart paths. :p

[Jeff 151]

I guess for the “casual” riders shimano rapid rise would work ok.

Care to back up your statement? Why not just say what you think:
Gimme a "G", gimme an "R", gimme an "I" "P" "S" "H" "I" "F" "T" . . .
Yaaaaaaay GRIP SHIFT!!!

[Jeff 151]

Sanjuro, I understand what you're saying about multiple movements to downshift with low-normal vs. one stroke with high-normal. But ultimately it's still quicker and easier to down shift with low-normal. This is because less pedal rotation is required at the crank to get the job done. You only have to let off the gas for a split second. Bam bam bam, done.

[Hello Kitty]

Care to back up your statement? Why not just say what you think:
Gimme a "G", gimme an "R", gimme an "I" "P" "S" "H" "I" "F" "T" . . .
Yaaaaaaay GRIP SHIFT!!!

Hey I’m not sipping on the shimano hatoraide I was shimanos pimp for 8 years before I tried the sram gripshift I had the old school and the new shimano stuff and both worked well however the sram X.0 works better .

[sanjuro]

How do you like those STI levers?

Eh. I've gotten used to them, so they are OK. But I wouldn't rave about them, and if you like any kind of hydra brake besides Shimano, u r f.

If you are a newbie, the mneomic is simple, down is harder, up is easier. But I hate being forced to use something, like Microsoft.

[sanjuro]

Sanjuro, I understand what you're saying about multiple movements to downshift with low-normal vs. one stroke with high-normal. But ultimately it's still quicker and easier to down shift with low-normal. This is because less pedal rotation is required at the crank to get the job done. You only have to let off the gas for a split second. Bam bam bam, done.

I don't disagree with this point. I suppose the key is which way you want "precision shifting", to the little gears or the big ones? I'd want little off road and the big gears on the road.

[wardo]

Given time, you will get used to anything and be able to react and anticipate. My race hardtail came with RR, my Sugar with the older XT, and I put SRAM grip shifts on my winter bike (less maintenance). The biggest problem I have is when I change bikes and have to spend a few hours "rewiring" my brain.

Change is hard, but not impossible.

Wardo

[genpowell71]

Yeah but I look at it like this. Why fix it if it aint broke. My pods work great and I can move 4 gears to a time when I hit the downhill. These new STI levers are kewl looking and all, but I like what I have now. And yes I've heard the saying about how all things will improve and get better. Doesnt mean I have to change at technology's pace.

[budgetrider]

8 clicks on Rapid rise actually is faster than 3 clicks of the high normal system. I couldn't believe it at first, but it's true. You can dump from smallest cog to largest almost as fast as a gripshift.

[MtnbikeMike]

8 clicks on Rapid rise actually is faster than 3 clicks of the high normal system. I couldn't believe it at first, but it's true. You can dump from smallest cog to largest almost as fast as a gripshift.


I would have to concur with that. My only gripe with the rapid rise is when the cable and housing bind the least bit, the shifting goes to hell. But other than that... :love:

[SkaredShtles]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a second go-around for this "rapid-rise" stuff, isn't it? I seem to remember a buddy with a Moots back in the late 90's with a RR rear der. :think:

[sanjuro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a second go-around for this "rapid-rise" stuff, isn't it? I seem to remember a buddy with a Moots back in the late 90's with a RR rear der. :think:
I don't think it ever faded away. I think RR derailleurs had a resurgance thanks to Dual Control. I would not want to use a regular derailleur if I was using DC shifters.

[DaveW]

Im sory!
Id always shif whenever i hit a bump. Theyd be better if they had astiffer twist.


Never had that problem. :)
haven't had any acidental ****ting probas at all with my X.0 twisties going over drops (4ft) steps rocks bumps jumps etc etc.
I love them :love:

[OGRipper]

I think rapid rise/low normal is stupid. I had it on a bike for over a year and honestly gave it a fair shot. It didn't take me long to get used to it, it just takes too long to downshift through more than one gear. Sometimes you just have to shift down a few gears at a time or you can be screwed trying to get up a short steep incline. On the flip-side, I've never seen a downhill section where I absolutely needed to upshift through two or three cogs in an instant or else come to a stop. With rapid rise, you get a delay when downshifting and instant upshifting. Stupid.

You can't force a downshift with rapid rise and I think that is why they do it - it's more idiot-proof. But if you know how/when to shift, downshifting through two or three cogs with a high normal system is no problem.

[SkaredShtles]

I don't think it ever faded away. I think RR derailleurs had a resurgance thanks to Dual Control. I would not want to use a regular derailleur if I was using DC shifters.
So they've been making them all this time? When did they start making RR?

[sanjuro]

According to the guru Sheldon Brown:

Low-normal/High-normal

Modern derailers are spring loaded, pulled one way by the spring and the other way by the control cable. A "low-normal" derailer is one in which the spring pulls it toward the lower gear(s). If you release the tension on the cable, it will shift to the lowest gear.
Up until the late 1950s, all spring loaded derailers were low-normal type. When Campagnolo introduced the parallelogram-type rear derailer, they changed to high-normal, and most rear derailers made since then have been of the high-normal type.

The major advantage of high-normal rear derailers is that, when used with a low-normal front, both levers move in the same direction for double shifts. This makes it easier to perform a double shift with down-tube shift levers.

The major advantage of low-normal derailers is that they generally downshift a bit better than high-normal units.

Since the late 1990s, Shimano has attempted to revive the low-normal rear derailer design, using the trademark "RapidRise." This has met with increasing acceptance by cyclists.

Sun Tour used to make high-normal front derailers. The principal advantage of this was that the front and rear shift levers moved in the same direction to either raise or lower the gear, which was less confusing for beginner cyclists.

[sanjuro]

And to be super anal, Shimano copyrighted the phrase "Rapid Rise" in 1997.

[OGRipper]

I don't think it ever faded away. I think RR derailleurs had a resurgance thanks to Dual Control. I would not want to use a regular derailleur if I was using DC shifters.


Yeah well not that anyone asked but I think DC is stupid too. :)

The same bike I mentioned above that had RR also had DC, and even after about a year I would still get undesired shifting, usually in tech sections where I wanted it the least. (I ditched the DC in favor of regular triggers so my opinion on RR is based in part on time with DC and part with triggers.)

I will always prefer separate shift and brake levers, that's another reason I prefer campy to shimano for my road bikes.

[sanjuro]

Yeah well not that anyone asked but I think DC is stupid too. :)

The same bike I mentioned above that had RR also had DC, and even after about a year I would still get undesired shifting, usually in tech sections where I wanted it the least. (I ditched the DC in favor of regular triggers so my opinion on RR is based in part on time with DC and part with triggers.)

I will always prefer separate shift and brake levers, that's another reason I prefer campy to shimano for my road bikes.

I assume you mean the thumb levers on the campy 'brifters'. I have used them both, and I do like the thumbers.

However, I am a loyal Shimano man, thanks to some bad experiences with Campy from the last century.

Shimano is definitely messing up, though. DC gains you no advantage (although I use it with no problems). Rapid Rise also gains nothing.

[OGRipper]

I assume you mean the thumb levers on the campy 'brifters'. I have used them both, and I do like the thumbers.

No, the campy brake lever feels more positive to me because it only moves in one plane - the brake lever and both shifter triggers are decoupled. You don't need to touch the brake levers to shift, and the brake levers don't swing like with shimano. It is that brake lever swinging action that I don't like about STI or DC. You've ridden both so I hope you understand what I mean, even if you don't agree.

It's just a personal preference thing. I rode a dura-ace bike on a demo program for almost a year and have lots of rides on other shimano bikes. It works great but I prefer the campy lever action. The campy hoods have always felt better to me too.

[sanjuro]

No, the campy brake lever feels more positive to me because it only moves in one plane - the brake lever and both shifter triggers are decoupled. You don't need to touch the brake levers to shift, and the brake levers don't swing like with shimano. It is that brake lever swinging action that I don't like about STI or DC. You've ridden both so I hope you understand what I mean, even if you don't agree.

It's just a personal preference thing. I rode a dura-ace bike on a demo program for almost a year and have lots of rides on other shimano bikes. It works great but I prefer the campy lever action. The campy hoods have always felt better to me too.
No doubt about it. I wondered about that, because I ride the hoods 95% of the time, which is perfect for the thumb levers.

This is going to sound stupid, but I like the shift housing outside of the bike. I never cared for aero setups, and my old road bike still has cables out the hoods.

I can depend on the cables as a last ditch grab if I come off the bars. It is also important if I do a Museeuw, time trial position but without tt bars, i.e. forearms on the tops.

Having separate brake and shift levers are not as important in road biking. I cannot think of a situation where you need to downshift and brake at the same time, and you cannot upshift and brake with campy.

[OGRipper]

No doubt about it. I wondered about that, because I ride the hoods 95% of the time, which is perfect for the thumb levers.

This is going to sound stupid, but I like the shift housing outside of the bike. I never cared for aero setups, and my old road bike still has cables out the hoods.

I can depend on the cables as a last ditch grab if I come off the bars. It is also important if I do a Museeuw, time trial position but without tt bars, i.e. forearms on the tops.

Having separate brake and shift levers are not as important in road biking. I cannot think of a situation where you need to downshift and brake at the same time, and you cannot upshift and brake with campy.

Well I'm bored today so I'll respond :) :

I hate the external cables on the shimano system, I think it looks cheesy as hell. I would have mentioned it earlier but didn't want to sound petty.

IMO aero is much cleaner and works great. Aero cables stopped binding about 20 years ago. It was the day they decided to put springs in the levers so the cables are being pulled from both ends. Bar tape is cheap but you can always use those little couplers so you don't need to re-wrap if you want to replace a housing.

But your last comments are most puzzling to me. Never downshift and brake at the same time, are you serious? Did you mean upshift? I downshift and brake at the same time on almost every ride, when I'm coming to a stop and want to get into a lower gear when I get started again, or when I'm descending some steep sketchy thing with a steep upslope right after. Happens all the time and is one reason I never liked grip shift for a rear derailleur. And although I don't do it very much, you can definitely upshift and brake with a campy lever - why not? Thumb the trigger and finger the brake...?

I tend to agree that having separate shifting and braking is less important in road biking, but for me that's because I use a lot less body english on my road bike and am much less likely to lean on my brake levers.

[sanjuro]

Well I'm bored today so I'll respond :) :

I hate the external cables on the shimano system, I think it looks cheesy as hell. I would have mentioned it earlier but didn't want to sound petty.

IMO aero is much cleaner and works great. Aero cables stopped binding about 20 years ago. It was the day they decided to put springs in the levers so the cables are being pulled from both ends. Bar tape is cheap but you can always use those little couplers so you don't need to re-wrap if you want to replace a housing.

But your last comments are most puzzling to me. Never downshift and brake at the same time, are you serious? Did you mean upshift? I downshift and brake at the same time on almost every ride, when I'm coming to a stop and want to get into a lower gear when I get started again, or when I'm descending some steep sketchy thing with a steep upslope right after. Happens all the time and is one reason I never liked grip shift for a rear derailleur. And although I don't do it very much, you can definitely upshift and brake with a campy lever - why not? Thumb the trigger and finger the brake...?

I tend to agree that having separate shifting and braking is less important in road biking, but for me that's because I use a lot less body english on my road bike and am much less likely to lean on my brake levers.

I always get downshift and upshift confused. In a car, downshift means an easier gear. I think downshift is moving to a smaller cog, i.e. harder gear.

Shifting to a bigger cog is important when braking, but you cannot do that with Campy or Shimano. I suppose you could have a circumstance where you descend into a corner leading to an uphill. I always point though, it didn't affect Lance though...

I understand why people like aero setups. Frankly, one reason why I like the cables out the brake levers was that Sean Kelly, my favorite ride, was super old school, with non-aero cables, even one of the last to go to clipless.

I have no logical reason for liking non-aero routing, just like I have no logic in liking Shimano.

[OGRipper]

I always get downshift and upshift confused. In a car, downshift means an easier gear. I think downshift is moving to a smaller cog, i.e. harder gear.

Shifting to a bigger cog is important when braking, but you cannot do that with Campy or Shimano.

Yeah it can be confusing but a bigger gear usually means gear inches, not the size of the cog. Funny, I think it's actually easier to downshift (to an easier gear/bigger cog :) ) while braking with STI, but I can do it with campy - index finger brakes and middle finger shifts. Anyway time for a rainy commute, later.

[SkaredShtles]

Take it to the roadie forum, you Roadies. :p

[sanjuro]

I thought this was the roadie forum?