It's True! Big Bear Closed To Dh/fr

[Gimper4JC]

Gravity racing (and riding) to be banned at Big Bear

By Jason Sumner
VeloNews associate editor

This report filed December 7, 2004

One of America's most renowned mountain-bike racing venues has pulled the plug on downhilling. Snow Summit Resort in Big Bear Lake, California will no longer allow downhill bikes on its chairlifts during the summer riding season, and this means no more downhill racing either.

According to Dick Kun, president of the resort, the change in policy stemmed primarily from the amount of liability exposure his resort was facing by allowing downhillers to ride on the mountain two hours drive from Los Angeles.

"Even with the insurance that NORBA and Team Big Bear carried it wasn't enough to protect us," explained Kun, referring to USA Cycling's national cycling body and the outfit that has run the Big Bear NCS races and many others during the last 15 years. "We just don't get enough in return to defray the exposure."

Kun added that, "there's one on-going claim stemming from an accident that happened a couple years ago that put things over the top." He would not elaborate on the case.

Two years ago, at the NORBA national series event, a female Japanese downhiller died from injuries sustained during a practice run.

Kun also pointed to the number of illegal trails being built on the mountain, which he said could be almost exclusively pinned on the downhill/freeride set.

"Guys were just riding everywhere in the woods," said Kun. "The Forest Service was really pissed off with what was going on and it probably wasn't long before they shut it down anyway."

A statement on the Team Big Bear Web site read, "Various methods have been used to inhibit the development and use of these trails including, signage, fencing and ticket revocation, but these attempts have proved futile."

As for the NORBA national series race that's scheduled for Big Bear May 14-15, 2005, the event will go on, just without the downhill or dual slalom.

"We'll have the cross-country and maybe the Super D," said Team Big Bear's Tom Spiegel. "But there will be no gravity events, no downhill, no dual slalom. It's all about the danger factor. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it goes."

As for enforcement of the new rule, Snow Summit's Kun said it would probably be a matter of bike weight restrictions, say no bikes over 35 pounds, though a final decision had not yet been made.

"Frankly we considered stopping [bike riding at the resort] all together," said Kun. "But we decided that we were willing to accept the exposure that came with allowing cross-country riding. We haven't had any serious accidents involving cross-country people and we don't think they're the ones building the illegal trails." END

This is not good.* Before you know it, the lawyers will sue all the fun out of everything.* People need to accept personal responsibility.* This is ridiculous.* Below is the link to Team Big Bear for the full story.* http://www.teambigbear.com/

[Hungry_Hank]

:nuts:

[biggins]

what does the forest service have to do with a private owned resort?

[Heath Sherratt]

I got my gemini dh under 35 lbs.... :)

[genpowell71]

Amazing how that works. State forest service people patrolling private land. This really sucks on SOOO many levels.

The insurance thing I can see. But to have a few individuals do what they want to do and screw it up for the rest of us. I'd be a bit pissed off.

[wirly]

what does the forest service have to do with a private owned resort?

It's not privately owned, it's leased from the parks service, as I understand it. And most of the "fun" trails are off the leased ski areas anyway.

[EBasil]

Mammoth Mountain is on a 100 year land lease.

Snow Summit and Bear Mountain are on National Forest Service land, but the operators have "Special Use Permits" that allow them to install approved improvements and operate ski resorts and etc... The NFS has the power to administrate and apply conditions to the Permit. That power includes the ability to penalize or regulate for conditions outside the permit area that are apparently a result of the permitted activity.

[dirt_bandit]

i rode at big bear a lot last season and it was sooo fun and it was my first season with my bike. now no more big bear WTF!! and i have never seen any forest service people out there or any fencing or ticket revocation. thats such ****ing bull****. so much fun to go ride DH for the day with friends and go chill back at the cabin at night but i guess that ****s not happening anymore. eric

[MTDBIKE]

I got my gemini dh under 35 lbs.... :)

Ditto...I got my 04Joker under 35lbs

Probably not allow to use a full face and armor.

SS will be uncrowded unless a new trend starts with light freeride bikes or highly modified DH bikes under 35 lbs...

[LOOnatic]

Ditto...I got my 04Joker under 35lbs

Probably not allow to use a full face and armor.

SS will be uncrowded unless a new trend starts with light freeride bikes or highly modified DH bikes under 35 lbs...

Dream on.
Alll the DH runs will no longer be open it appears.
That means riding only the uber boring XC only trails so its pointless to lighten up a DH bike then.

[MikeD]

Dream on.
Alll the DH runs will no longer be open it appears.
That means riding only the uber boring XC only trails so its pointless to lighten up a DH bike then.

Yeah, I was trying to avoid being Debbie Downer with that observation...but Loo is right for once. The big 3 race runs won't exist anymore. Pine Knot and Fall Line alone aren't going to be worth the trip up there...and I imagine the enforcement and fencing are going to be big deals if you try and go and ride Darkside or something. Big snow fencing and signs...I'm sure people will pull them down ASAP so they can claim it wasn't signed, but in the end, the forest service will find a way to close it off or simply station rangers there to cite people and remove lift passes.

I don't think it's gonna be the same old big bear with lighter bikes, any way you slice it.

[LOOnatic]

Yeah, I was trying to avoid being Debbie Downer with that observation...but Loo is right for once. .

For once!
Just once you say!!

Thats it, i'm going to the Jerkstore and never coming back...
:dancing:

[MikeD]

Well, I guess you've been right every time you've said "oh, ****" as you went over the bars, too...

That better?

Can we come visit you in LA to DH now?

[ioscope]

well, let's hope this is an isolated incident. Find that suer and make their life hell.

[Pegboy]

well, let's hope this is an isolated incident. Find that suer and make their life hell.

Just wondering, is your "Location" actually under that oily rock?

[Rabie]

Just wondering, is your "Location" actually under that oily rock?

Don't hate on the guy for cutting through all the insurance company/healthcare b.s. and pointing the finger right back where it belongs.
At you.

[Fury]

I was talking to a buddy of mine and we both agreed it's a tough call. If you were in the same situation would you sue? I say I wouldn't now but imagine if life as you know had just been stripped away from you because of a mistake by course designers... you might change your tune.

But for now I say it sucks and it is sad that one of our own is sueing, yet again.

[FRnut]

It shouldn't be blamed on the course designers... ESPECIALLY if you're on a DH bike. You should be able to handle the course, or get the hell off. I have personally seen people on the little rented Treks from the bike shop, wearing flip flops and cross country helmets, who look like they've never seen a bike before, let alone ride one... It's not the DHers causing the problems, it's the in-experienced. There is really no easy way around this problem, so they are simply taking the easy way out, and taking the priviledge away from everyone. It sucks, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I don't think this ban will last longer than a year. It's only a matter of time before the owner realizes just how much money he's losing by taking away DH. The only way around his loss of profits will be to increase prices everywhere else (Skiiers, boarders, even XCers). Those people will simply stop going to Bear. They will go to Mammoth or wherever else. Most people figure if they're already driving somewhere, they might as well drive further to get more bang for their buck.

It's all a profit thing, and when the owner pulls his head out from between his legs, he'll realize there's no fighting the DHers, because we will win it in the long run.

[Pegboy]

Well Frnut, I wish that was the case but I've heard differently. I lived in Vail CO for years and knew people who worked for mountain management. I was told that running lifts in the summer is a losing proposition for the mountain. I want to say the quoted number for a day of service was around $10,000 with electricity, employees insurance ect. Vail had two lifts open, so even if you cut that in half you're still looking at 5 G fo a day. I have never seen 100 + people at BB on a non race day. With Vail, they provided the service as a side attraction to keep people coming to to town to fill hotels,restaurants, retail shops ect. BB is a different animal in that it is not really a resort. The lake probably generates more income than the mountain for the town but rest assured the town will feel the impact, especially bike shops, cheap restaurants and motel 6. All of this is speculation, but I don't believe SS/BB is tied into the ownership of any of the shops, lodging or restaurants other than what sits on the hill.

Anyone know the Total cost for running lifts at BB?

[Pegboy]

Oh yeah, Rabie, I spit peanuts in your general direction and hope you choke on a piece of meat!

[Fury]

Pegboy, are you the guy who got hurt?

[LOOnatic]

Pegboy, are you the guy who got hurt?


It sure is.
I loath him for it. :sneaky:

[Pegboy]

Only emotionally, now shut your pie hole or I will sue you.

[W4S]

[QUOTE=Pegboy] I was told that running lifts in the summer is a losing proposition for the mountain. [QUOTE]

I think Summit still plans on running the lifts for other people, they're just not going to allow DH bikes on it.

Pegboy, I hate you so very much. You don't scare me anymore now that rabie and his veggie army have my back.

[LOOnatic]

Only emotionally, now shut your pie hole or I will sue you.


Duly noted sir. :eviltongu

[Pegboy]

"I think Summit still plans on running the lifts for other people, they're just not going to allow DH bikes on it. " W4S

I know, I just dont think the income of downhillers is going to change the minds of the shareholders.

You should also know that Rabie is not to be trusted, he's like Packastinian or something, so you can just get rid of your NO FEAR attitude.

[LOOnatic]

"I think Summit still plans on running the lifts for other people, they're just not going to allow DH bikes on it. " W4S

I know, I just dont think the income of downhillers is going to change the minds of the shareholders.

You should also know that Rabie is not to be trusted, he's like Packastinian or something, so you can just get rid of your NO FEAR attitude.



ARe you about to start quoting David St. Hubbins or something?

[Edgy]

Heres what I see(by the way I'm blind) Years ago when skateboarding evlolved from clay wheels to eurthane, many skate parks sprang up. In fact I worked at one when I was 17...Skateboard Oddesy in Mission Viejo. It was an indoor park.

There were always insurance issues. Yes, they had waivers,etc. but some kids would just forge their parents names, etc. then get hurt and blam...lawsuit.

This happened so much that after a while many parks, including Oddesy closed.

Several years later( the present) skate parks are all over now, even at your local park(Parks & Rec). Whatever happened to allow for parks to open again without the same Ins. liablities is what has to happen in the MTB arena....

my 2 bits...

[Brian Peterson]

It shouldn't be blamed on the course designers... ESPECIALLY if you're on a DH bike. You should be able to handle the course, or get the hell off. I have personally seen people on the little rented Treks from the bike shop, wearing flip flops and cross country helmets, who look like they've never seen a bike before, let alone ride one... It's not the DHers causing the problems, it's the in-experienced. There is really no easy way around this problem, so they are simply taking the easy way out, and taking the priviledge away from everyone. It sucks, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I don't think this ban will last longer than a year. It's only a matter of time before the owner realizes just how much money he's losing by taking away DH. The only way around his loss of profits will be to increase prices everywhere else (Skiiers, boarders, even XCers). Those people will simply stop going to Bear. They will go to Mammoth or wherever else. Most people figure if they're already driving somewhere, they might as well drive further to get more bang for their buck.

It's all a profit thing, and when the owner pulls his head out from between his legs, he'll realize there's no fighting the DHers, because we will win it in the long run.

You are kidding, right? Have you ever seen the number of skiiers there on a given weekend compared to the number of DH riders on a given weekend? Plus, skiiers are already paying $60 for an all day ticket and SS is having to turn people away. DHers pay $20, there are way less people there and we cry about it.... Granted, I didn't like paying $20 for only 3 trails that used less than a quarter of the ski area, so I stopped going.

From a business stand point, it is cheaper to pull the plug in the summer.

You are right.... There is no fighting the DHers... Why bother? There are more XC riders out there anyway...

Brian

[W4S]

From a business stand point, it is cheaper to pull the plug in the summer.

You are right.... There is no fighting the DHers... Why bother? There are more XC riders out there anyway...

Brian

You make some very good points, but I still feel that Snow Summit did not do enough to make their business successful. Brian, do you honestly not believe that DH has a future in the US? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm really curious.

Here's a good read detailing what Summit went through to get where they are today. http://www.snowsummit.com/history.php

[Slugman]

You are kidding, right? Have you ever seen the number of skiiers there on a given weekend compared to the number of DH riders on a given weekend? Plus, skiiers are already paying $60 for an all day ticket and SS is having to turn people away. DHers pay $20, there are way less people there and we cry about it.... Granted, I didn't like paying $20 for only 3 trails that used less than a quarter of the ski area, so I stopped going.


Very timely and interesting article - shows you the type of $$$ that winter sports bring to the mountain.



There's no business like snow business
Insurance upstart offers policies on spendy season passes

Barbara Noll / AP file
For about 6 percent of the price for a season pass (typically around $1,000), skiers and snowboarders can get a SkierGuard insurance policy that covers loss of pass use due to injury, emergency evacuation of up to $15,000 if you have to be airlifted or transported off the mountain and a maximum of $10,000 for accidental death or dismemberment.
By Erin Chambers

For winter warriors who spend most of their weekends on the slopes, a season ski pass can save a bundle. But what happens if you break your leg on the first run of the season? Traditionally, you're out an entire season's worth of lift tickets. And on the other side of the ticket counter, if you're a ski-resort owner or operator, you're likely to be confronted by an annoyed, crutches-bound pass holder demanding a refund.

Ron Iverson, president of Tourist Insurance Services, set out to solve both problems — and his startup is reaping the benefits of staking out an untapped market. “There was a complete void,” Iverson says. “Nobody was serving pass holders, so we decided to step in.”

For 6 percent of the season-pass price, which typically runs around $1,000, a SkierGuard insurance policy gets you three-way coverage: loss of pass use due to injury, emergency evacuation of up to $15,000 if you have to be airlifted or transported off the mountain, and a maximum of $10,000 for accidental death or dismemberment. SkierGuard is underwritten by National Union Fire Insurance Co. of Pittsburgh, a division of AIG. Though similar offerings are available in Canada, SkierGuard is believed to be the only such service in the U.S.

One-stop shopping
And business is booming. Iverson and his three-employee team sold over 700 policies before Thanksgiving, the unofficial start of the ski season, after a lukewarm debut last year that saw only 150 policies sold during the entire season. Like many small-business owners, Iverson realized that finding a niche is one thing, but exploiting it is another.

-more-
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6667060/

[Brian Peterson]

You make some very good points, but I still feel that Snow Summit did not do enough to make their business successful. Brian, do you honestly not believe that DH has a future in the US? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm really curious.

Here's a good read detailing what Summit went through to get where they are today. http://www.snowsummit.com/history.php

I agree, SS could have done a lot more to make DH a profitable venture. But it comes down to how they look at things. Do you choose to invest more money in the hopes of increasing revenue? Or do you look at the amount of revenue you are currently making compared to the expenses of daily operations and pull the plug? For me on a personal note, if they had put out the effort to get more trails on the ski slopes, I would have kept going. But those same three trails over and over for 10 years... I noticed a few changes over the last year, but for me it was too little, too late. I can say I am 99% positive that as far as DH is concerned, it was a losing situation there. Dual slalom was dropped from the Am Cups because everybody talked about how great it was to have it, but only a few of those people would show up to race.

Do I believe DH has a future in the US? Yes. But, it will take some changes to make it happen. First and most important, all of us have to band together. And by all of us I mean anyone that rides a mountain bike. There are some other things like mountain biking also needs to be recognized as a hazardous activity much like skiing and skateboarding. Ever wonder how all those public skate parks have come about? I could go on about this, but I have to get going.

Brian

[W4S]

Heres what I see(by the way I'm blind) Years ago when skateboarding evlolved from clay wheels to eurthane, many skate parks sprang up. In fact I worked at one when I was 17...Skateboard Oddesy in Mission Viejo. It was an indoor park...

That must have been in, what, 1950? Dude, you're OLD!! :blah:

[FRnut]

OK, I may be wrong about how the ban will only last a year due to profit issues, my bad, I hadn't realized how much it costs to run the lifts for a day.

Nonetheless, what it really comes down to is that people in America are entirely too sue happy. When you ride, you assume all risks taken, end of story. If you crash, it's your fault. You always hear these stories of the customer at Mc Donald's who spills coffee in their lap, burns themselves, sues, and wins millions in court. I do not understand how the courts could grant money to someone who made a mistake, and was injured for it. The guy hit a trail marker... we've all done it, or something like it. I have read of his injuries, it sucks, I agree; but it is absolutely no reason to sue. It's like a drunk driver driving off the road, hitting a guard rail, and totalling his car, and blaming CalTrans for the accident.

[ncrider]

So I've really bin trying to wait all this gossip out before posting, but I can't stand it anymore. The lose of BB sucks bottom line. Oh well lets move on. Mammoth is a million times better. Ten mile DHruns :)
So wipe your tears so cal monkeys and lets put together some sweet rips to Mamoth this summer. Screw BB.

[ncrider]

edit:
sweet trips, not rips (unless thats you thing) :rolleyes:

[Fonzie18]

So I've really bin trying to wait all this gossip out before posting, but I can't stand it anymore. The lose of BB sucks bottom line. Oh well lets move on. Mammoth is a million times better. Ten mile DHruns :)
So wipe your tears so cal monkeys and lets put together some sweet rips to Mamoth this summer. Screw BB.

The only problem is that Mammoth is like what? 6 hours away? Driving really fast :cool: . Big Bear was about 2 hours from the S.D area.

Agreed, the trails started to get old and boring, and needed some improvements. But for some reason, everytime I went up there it was like the first time riding DH all over again. Snow Summit was an important place for many people, not to mention it was just about legendary in terms of mountainbike racing history. We do need to find another place in Southern Cali. I'm gonna go cry now :nopity:

-ALF

[Brian Peterson]

Speaking about the money part of things.... I was involved in a conversation about this before I went home last night.... The word I hear is that the most successful mountain bike park going right now, Whistler, makes about as much money during one holiday weekend of skiing as they do the whole summer of Mountain Biking. Kind of puts things into prospective... Especially for those that have seen the lift lines in Whistler compared to Snow Summit..

Brian

[Fury]

Speaking about the money part of things.... I was involved in a conversation about this before I went home last night.... The word I hear is that the most successful mountain bike park going right now, Whistler, makes about as much money during one holiday weekend of skiing as they do the whole summer of Mountain Biking. Kind of puts things into prospective... Especially for those that have seen the lift lines in Whistler compared to Snow Summit..

Brian

Most resorts make 75% of their income during the few weeks over the Christmas holidays. That isn't surprising at all. The idea is that if the profits and other factors (promotion exposure, condo sales, etc.) outweigh other investment opportunities it's better to stay open during the summer.

[Brian Peterson]

It wasn't very suprising to me either, but to see how big the difference between skiing and biking was a little surprising considering the amount of riders there in the summer.

Brian

[EBasil]

Just a useless factoid, but Snow Summit has run the main chair during Summer since the early 70's, and every year since then.

TBB is certainly going to lose money and business, but it's a safe bet that Snow Summit's decision was designed to avoid making the chair into a money-loser due to insurance costs or a new claim(s). The saving grace may be the comment from the Snow Summit Prez to the effect that they don't associate claims or trail-cutting to "cross country" riders. That suggests they'll still try to tap into the $$ that have done them so well for the last 14 or 15 seasons and keep lifting bikes on the chair.

[Orvan]

I still have emotional scars from when Rabie and Pegboy yelled at me from the chair on my way down Summit run over the summer.

[El Jefe]

Just a useless factoid, but Snow Summit has run the main chair during Summer since the early 70's, and every year since then.

TBB is certainly going to lose money and business, but it's a safe bet that Snow Summit's decision was designed to avoid making the chair into a money-loser due to insurance costs or a new claim(s). The saving grace may be the comment from the Snow Summit Prez to the effect that they don't associate claims or trail-cutting to "cross country" riders. That suggests they'll still try to tap into the $$ that have done them so well for the last 14 or 15 seasons and keep lifting bikes on the chair.

GMAFB Ebasil. SS is just trying to cover their asses. The fact is that SS and Team Big Bear routed numerous races down illegal trails, and reworked legal trails into non-approved lines. The Forest Service never once tried to individually enforce trail closures, nor did Snow Summit. The Forest Service slapped SS on the wrist a time or two for the trail re-routes and use of closed trails for races, but those trails were used and ridden long before the 7-10" travel bikes came along. The Bullsh!t claim that DH riders cut the trails is just a way to cover up for the fact that the entire decision is directly related to the pending lawsuits...lawsuits that involve DH race courses....sanctioned race courses created and marked by TBB, NORBA, and Snow Summit.

[Kornphlake]

I still am baffled that 3 months of winter in the san bernardino mountains can create more revenue than 7 months of summer. Of all the people I know who ski, few make more money than I do and few spend more on their hobby than I spend on biking. The numbers just aren't adding up, I realize that there's a price cieling for mountain biking lift passes because the investment in equipment is several times higher but still I'd think better marketing could have turned summer into prime season at SS, how do they manage to get all those skiers there in the winter time? Not all of them are yuppies and rich kids most of them are average Joe's like us (who are just as willing to sue given a reason.) Why would SS think it in their best interest to discontinue lift assisted biking in a market where they hold the monopoly rather than build up the sport? Why would they want to limit their only revenue to a few months in the winter where they are in direct competition with several othe resorts?

Has anybody ever been to the resort at mount baldy? I remember hiking up the slope one fall day in high school and thinking it was (too) gnarly to ride on. That place could put big bear to shame if they were to open the lifts in the summer, it's closer, the road is better (although quite narrow) and the terrain easily eclipses SS in terms of steepness and uber huge rocks. With a little care in cutting trails that place could easily surpass SS and become THE so cal bike mecca.

[Brian Peterson]

With all due respect, you have to look beyond the people you know..... Go to Snow Summit on a good ski weekend... Hell, go tomorrow... You'll see the difference real quick. As a DH rider, we complain about the lift lines, but in the winter every lift there has similar and usually longer lift lines... That's why when I used to snowboard alot, I avoided being there on weekends as much as possible.

Brian

[W4S]

With all due respect, you have to look beyond the people you know..... Go to Snow Summit on a good ski weekend... Hell, go tomorrow... You'll see the difference real quick. As a DH rider, we complain about the lift lines, but in the winter every lift there has similar and usually longer lift lines... That's why when I used to snowboard alot, I avoided being there on weekends as much as possible.

Brian


There is more traffic during the winter, that's for sure. The question is if there is a market for a DH'ing crowd in SoCal. We agree that SS and TBB didn't work very hard to help themselves succeed:

1. Lack of decent trails.
2. Unsafe trail conditions. Conditions that could easily be liability issues.
4. No services for the novice riders. A fleet of decent long travel bikes would make it a lot easier to create new riders.
5. No naked cocktail waitresses.

Also, I've heard that Whistler makes more money per capita off the biking crowd that they do from winter sports, so your profit argument is moot.

Other resorts seem to be making a living during the summer with DH'ers, why couldn't Summit? If it's just about this one legal issue, then that's scary. If it's about Summit not being able to be profitable, then I say GTFOH, let simebody else give it a try. anybody? please, somebody? :dead:

[Pegboy]

Well, I've never been to Whistler so maybe I don't know sh1t but, I'm not sure I believe that their summer profits rival the winter. I'm not sure how they run their lifts but consider this, BB and most other chair assisted MTB venues, do not run their lifts at full speed during the summer. On top of that, they are only loading every other chair w/ people. So not knowing the numbers and just looking at the lines, if they were to load every chair at full speed, there would be no lines at BB and most other places for that matter, and that is only running one chair. Again, I've never been to whistler but as a skier I know that Whistler in the winter to skiers/boarders, is as wistler is to MTBers. Now take into consideration, weekday traffic summer Vs. Winter and the number of lifts that are open and I think you get the picture...summer doesn't make jack for profit if any. Winter works because families can participate. You can dump kids in ski school for daycare and there are alot more women who ski/board than MTB, especially DH.
Solutions? I think the best bet is to find a place that can be run Fontana style, Ie. shuttle trucks or busses. There .would be little start up cost, minimal operating costs, and if done in the proper location, it could be open year round. Also, if it was a descent hill you could hold National caliber races during the winter (Get a system to rival AUS). Obviously you would want something with enough area to run 10 or so trails of different ability levels, and maybe a park.
The problem? Well you still have land ownership/permits, liability and the question of wheather a place logistically exists and the time frame it woulld take to get this off the ground.
What are my oppinions worth? Well look under your couch cushions ,and there you go.

[W4S]

Pegboy, you ignorant slunt. You're making two different arguements, Business practice and business policy. Profit is a formula of expense vs. revenue, and what I mean by Whistler being more profitable, per capita, during the summer over the winter is that they spend less and earn more, per person, through bikers over skiers. That doesn't mean they make more during the summer, that means that they earn a higher mean profit during that time. That's important because it shows that DH'er will pay money to ride bikes at resorts, and resorts can make money.
Intrawest also invests back into the riding with new trails, and services. Do you think that snowboarding and skiing would be as popular as they are if there weren't rental shops providing decent equipment? Not too many people want to shell out that much money to do a sport they've never done before. Rentals makes it easier for people to become interested, and become consumers.
Starting a new place like you're describing would be nice, too. But it doesn't mean that resort riding has to go away.

[Pegboy]

Yeah, I know what you are saying about the profit vs. revenue, either way without the facts it's all just speculation. By the way, what is a "slunt"?, should I want to kill you even more dead?

Side note, There was a couple of shops in Vail that offered "real" Dh bike rentals, (one place had Giant comps and the other turner dhr's), they charged over $50/day and I tihnk it was actually closer to $100. They were rented out fairly often and sold at the end of the season, so I am sure that is a profitable venture.

[Rabie]

By the way, what is a "slunt"?

It's what you call the bastard that shut down BB. How do you even show your face around here anymore? Get the f_ck out of here, slunt.

[Roasted]

Also, I've heard that Whistler makes more money per capita off the biking crowd that they do from winter sports, so your profit argument is moot.


I woud love to see the numbers on that. We do ok in the summer but nothing compared to winter. And even on a per capita level, I find it hard to believe. Summer time guest is short stay rubber necker (3 day weekend average), usually not a big spender (ask any restaurant or high end store, they die in the summer still) and the room rates are almost 1/4 of the winter rates (Westin room minimum goes from 250 to 69-99 as a example). What you are saying doesn't add up. We would need to nearly triple the guest quotient in order for that to make sense, and trust me, summer time is slow compared to winter, there are no lineups here in comparison. Add into that occupancy, winter time we are 80 to 100% every week until the snow goes, summer 5 to 30% during the week (there is no one in town but us locals and the shore kids) and 80 to 100% during the summer. There is just no way whistler per capita or gross is anywhere near winter time (yet)

Like I said, whistler is doing well, but nothing compared to winter. Maybe you spoke with a shop employee. If that were the case I would be willing to bet that makes sense as bikes require more repair more often then skiis and are more expensive. The shops are probably making more money....whistler in general...more money than 6 years ago in the summer maybe....

(oh and surgeons make more in the summer to I bet...way more serious injuries)

[edit]
After walking home I realized per capita is possible. With lowered operational costs (less paid staff, lesslifts, one gondola etc) it is 'possible' intrawest itself is making more money per capita. My mistake. It isn't nearly as impossible as I first thought

[dhjill]

Other resorts seem to be making a living during the summer with DH'ers, why couldn't Summit? If it's just about this one legal issue, then that's scary. If it's about Summit not being able to be profitable, then I say GTFOH, let simebody else give it a try. anybody? please, somebody? :dead:

Because SoCal has the highest rate of frivilous lawsuits. The only reason places like Whistler can exist is because that kind of BS law doesn't fly in Canada.

[Fury]

Because SoCal has the highest rate of frivilous lawsuits. The only reason places like Whistler can exist is because that kind of BS law doesn't fly in Canada.

Maybe less so in B.C. but here in Ontario they're rampant.

[Roasted]

I still don't think on par with cali. The numbers or the resulting settlements.

Biggest difference in our law is the rarety of jury's to dole out the coin. Most of the time it is a judge, who tend to be more realistic with their settlements :)

[Kornphlake]

With all due respect, you have to look beyond the people you know..... Go to Snow Summit on a good ski weekend... Hell, go tomorrow... You'll see the difference real quick. As a DH rider, we complain about the lift lines, but in the winter every lift there has similar and usually longer lift lines... That's why when I used to snowboard alot, I avoided being there on weekends as much as possible.

Brian

Which really doesn't prove anything. How did Big Bear become such a popluare ski destination for so cal residents? I understand it's one of few areas in the reigon that offer skiing but I don't see how they could succeede with such a short season, poor conditions, and the fact that I know people who have literally never seen snow. Now resorts in utah I can understand because Utah gets a lot of snow in the winter in urban areas, it makes sense that as a culture Utahns would invest in ski equipment and passes, it's something they can count on doing all winter long every winter rather at a resort or on the little hill near thier house, much the same as we ride our bikes. Maybe I'm just stupid or maybe I just don't understand the allure of skiing but the way I see it when there's lots of snow around locals are into skiing, when there's lots of sun around locals should be more into biking, surfing, swimming, skateboarding, whatever. I imagine that the big bear norba national draws more out of state visitors in one day than an entire winter season of skiing. That alone should speak volumes, have you ever heared a commercial on the radio for snow summit saying in their annoying announcer voice "come huck our gnarly trails, pull a superman seat grab over a lawn dart jump, bend your derailur hanger on a tree stump that wasn't removed, and I don't even know what a derailur hanger is?" They promote the ski season starting in september though and continue to do so until the last bit of snow is left.

I guess my point is that skiing in southern california had to start somewhere, it wasn't something that the spaniards were doing in the winter, somewhere along the line someone introduced skiing and pushed to make it popular to a reigon where it is difficult to justify the investment in equipment and time to participate in. Why wouldn't they see it in their best interests to push mountain biking and make it just as popular as winter skiing?

[MikeD]

Why wouldn't they see it in their best interests to push mountain biking and make it just as popular as winter skiing?

I don't think I'm alone when I say that making DH biking as popular as skiing (and snowboarding, really, which I hazard to guess made a HUGE increase in BB's business in the 90s) would really, really suck.

Not only would having enormous summer lift lines drive me and some other serious bikers away from the resorts, it would produce many more riders to overcrowd this area's other ridable trails in the winter.

While I'm open to the idea of having new riders...heck, I actively convert any friends who will listen to me...I DON'T want our sport "mainstreamed," as so many seem to want to see it. I'd rather it was perceived as an entirely grueling or extraordinarily dangerous activity for freaks with a prohibitive price tag.

MD

[Kornphlake]

I don't think I'm alone when I say that making DH biking as popular as skiing (and snowboarding, really, which I hazard to guess made a HUGE increase in BB's business in the 90s) would really, really suck.

Not only would having enormous summer lift lines drive me and some other serious bikers away from the resorts, it would produce many more riders to overcrowd this area's other ridable trails in the winter.

While I'm open to the idea of having new riders...heck, I actively convert any friends who will listen to me...I DON'T want our sport "mainstreamed," as so many seem to want to see it. I'd rather it was perceived as an entirely grueling or extraordinarily dangerous activity for freaks with a prohibitive price tag.

MD

While I totally agree with you, I don't think SS has a soul, they can't care about the sport of downhill mountain biking so much that they are willing to sacrifice their summer revenue for the sake of keeping the sport of mountain biking obscure.

What it comes down to is SS doesn't want to invest in advertising and improvements to thier facilities for summertime activities. That's been quite obvious for a long time, with a law suit and problems with the forrest service
it's now convenient for them to pull the plug and save a few dollars for themselves, it has nothing to do with the sport.

[Brian Peterson]

It's true, they never promoted the summer time.... They looked at it in a "we are not making enough money, so we are not going to try and make it grow" way. Skiing is the bread and butter for big bear and they know it.

As for the Whistler numbers, I know my info came from the guys at the park. The difference here is that Whistler seems to be committed to growing the summer business. They are expanding the park and offering more trails to ride. Funny, sounds like the same type of thing that helps ski resorts grow in the winter. Sure, we might not get ladders and bridges and such, but they could have at least given us more than 3 trails to ride.

The Big Bear national does bring some out of state people, but it is only one weekend. Plus, from what I have seen, the numbers have been down at that race. But that is just a personal observation, no hard numbers to back that up. How will it be this year without the gravity racers?

Brian

[***MTB***]

i heard about it. i only live about 3 hours from it. and was planning to go next summer

[apexmadcat]

I feel that Dick Kun (the owner) will probable change his mind. DH brings in some money during the summer that he uses to pay for snow making in the winter. I feel that as soon as he relaizes that he needs the money things will change. Its just not going to be the same though. They are just going to be strict on the rules and patrolling the trails alot more. But only time will tell. When I am up there this winter I will talk to Dick and get his point of view. Maybe I could get some more light on this subject.

[Edgy]

That must have been in, what, 1950? Dude, you're OLD!! :blah:
True dat my friend, but at least I'm still active. :evil: