MX suspension

[HTFR]

is anyone else jealous of MX suspension technology?
*this is a 'post whore' post* :nuts:

[partsbara]

the best of both worlds... avalanche

[zedro]

the best of both worlds... avalanche

oh? so where the hi and low speed compression and hi and low speed rebound adjustments then?

hint: CC/Ohlins....

[partsbara]

oh? so where the hi and low speed compression and hi and low speed rebound adjustments then?

hint: CC/Ohlins....

i can t imagine needing em... the ohlins shock is interesting tho'... doesn t it have an outrageous price tag tho' ???

i m super stoked on my dhs... every bike i ever own from now on will rock one

[Jm_]

i can t imagine needing em...

Never know untill you try.

[partsbara]

Never know untill you try.

prolly !! i guess i m a bit of an old retro bastid... i like the simplicity of the avy with rebound and comp adjusters... just two dials... the 5th, manitou swinger 54 way and dhx5.0 just don t appeal to me... plus most people (myself included) are either 1) too lazy to set em up properly or 2) not knowledgeble enough to utilize every adjustment...

[nickaziz]

oh? so where the hi and low speed compression and hi and low speed rebound adjustments then?

hint: CC/Ohlins....

It has them. The adjustments are done internally. I trust having craig, a motocross tuning expert, set up my shock. I don't need to show all the nerds at the hills a bunch of dials.

[seismic]

oh? so where the hi and low speed compression and hi and low speed rebound adjustments then?

hint: CC/Ohlins....


AVALANCHE MTN-8, - and you are close :devil:

[seismic]

And..Yeah..as the other guys said....go Avalanche ! It dosent get better IMO !

[zedro]

It has them. The adjustments are done internally.

adjustments arent considered adjustable if they're internal....because you cant adjust them.

The DHX in that case has what the Avys have, exept with position sentivity. So i guess that makes the DHxs better
:nuts:

[seismic]

adjustments arent considered adjustable if they're internal....because you cant adjust them.

The DHX in that case has what the Avys have, exept with position sentivity. So i guess that makes the DHxs better
:nuts:


Sorry my skepticim, but I doubt very much that the quality of the DHX can even get near the overall quality of an Avy :think:

[zedro]

Sorry my skepticim, but I doubt very much that the quality of the DHX can even get near the overall quality of an Avy :think:

feel free to back that up with facts, instead of simple brand loyalty...

[HTFR]

Whow!

[seismic]

It is just my impression...thats all !

[ChrisRobin]

I'm just jealous of rich people.

[nickaziz]

feel free to back that up with facts, instead of simple brand loyalty...

I'll back that sentiment up with some brand disloyalty by saying everything i've seen and ridden that fox has ever made is pure cheese.

[zedro]

I'll back that sentiment up with some brand disloyalty by saying everything i've seen and ridden that fox has ever made is pure cheese.

upon writing this, your post count is below 100, so it counts for nothing :p :nuts:

[seismic]

I am not saying the DHX is not good, but my impression in general is that shocks and forks built by Avalanche hold up really well, and that is not my impression when it comes to Fox.

[thaflyinfatman]

I'll back that sentiment up with some brand disloyalty by saying everything i've seen and ridden that fox has ever made is pure cheese.

You have a problem with cheese?

Fox forks are pretty damn good... the DHXs I've bounced on felt alright but obviously that means nothing.

[seismic]

I agree that they feel nice...I am just still wondering if they will actually hold up to abuce over a long period.

[thaflyinfatman]

I agree that they feel nice...I am just still wondering if they will actually hold up to abuce over a long period.


Well everything will hold up to abuse over a long period of time if you're willing to accept that it might not work optimally at all times.... haha

[seismic]

That is not far from the truth :p

[JRogers]

I'll back that sentiment up with some brand disloyalty by saying everything i've seen and ridden that fox has ever made is pure cheese.
Yeah, okay :rolleyes:

Their forks are awesome and the new shocks are great as well. I would almost definitely take a DHX over an Avalanche.

[seismic]

Yeah, okay :rolleyes:

Their forks are awesome and the new shocks are great as well. I would almost definitely take a DHX over an Avalanche.

Why ?

[zedro]

Why ?

because you get to "adjust" it the way you want, not the way some snotty dude tells you how he wants to tune it.

Being a canadian with a bike not on the fit list, i wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't even want to sell me one (and there is some precedence here as well).

[biker3]

I'll back that sentiment up with some brand disloyalty by saying everything i've seen and ridden that fox has ever made is pure cheese.

dude who are u? Whats the deal with all the lurkers with the strong opinions on everything. Why don't you gain a little RESPECT around here before you go and run your mouth? And could you explain to us how your the only one around who actually has bad things to say about fox. Ive NEVER heard a single complaint "feel" wise about fox stuff. The only negative ive heard is there sometimes reliablity issues with leaking and seals etc. but other then that all ive heard is excellent things.

[Toshi]

Being a canadian with a bike not on the fit list, i wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't even want to sell me one (and there is some precedence here as well).
i hope you're not talking about the frame you built, since that's a ridiculous example -- why would a one off frame be on his fit list? second, it's "precedent".

my experience is that my swinger 6 way felt sticky, my fox rc and r shocks never blew up but never felt well damped (and bobbed a ton, both on kona-style and fsr-style linkage bikes), and my avalanche dhs feels wonderful. and, uh, keeps me on the ground for better cornering due to its increased weight. yes. :D

disclaimer: my 6 way was used, so maybe it's action wasn't its fault. and i didn't screw around with it either. which goes back to the earlier point, that i told craig how and what i ride, he valved my shock for it, and it works.

[Brian HCM#1]

because you get to "adjust" it the way you want, not the way some snotty dude tells you how he wants to tune it.

Being a canadian with a bike not on the fit list, i wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't even want to sell me one (and there is some precedence here as well).
But thats what they also do @ PUSH, try to dial it in just for you. Its not a mass produced fits all bikes type shock. I've never ridden the new Fox and heard its really nice so far, but I'm happy with the way Craig has set up my Avalanche on both bikes.

[seismic]

I have to agree. The Fox (the ol rc) IMO felt like sh#t ! "Noooo, - do not set any compression on it because then it will blow" is a sentence I have heard too many times. How is it that you make a shock that can not take its own compression dampning?? Also, - if not the compression dampning then you had the on/off rebound dampning which (again in my humble opinion) was easy to blow up. Maybe the new Fox forks and the DHX are good, - but apart from that I think Fox has not made good products in the past. Other products ? Romic = blew 3 times within half a year. 5th = 90% of the 5th owners I know have had leaking problems.

I like the Avy because I can trust it. That is one point I have never experienced with ANY other shock.

[zedro]

i hope you're not talking about the frame you built, since that's a ridiculous example -- why would a one off frame be on his fit list? second, it's "precedent".



uhh, yeah, no **** its not on the fit list (brilliant observation btw), the point is that would be a big problem getting an Avy BECAUSE ITS NOT ON THEIR FIT LIST (and i dont mean size wise). Selling stuff seems to be a huge bother to them, and god knows anyone other than themselves are too incompetent to know what they want regardless...

so i'll stick to my DHX...cheaper, more tunable, lighter...and if you've ever seen one up close, they are very nicely made (no comparison to the Vanillas)

[seismic]

uhh, yeah, no **** its not on the fit list (brilliant observation btw), the point is that would be a big problem getting an Avy BECAUSE ITS NOT ON THEIR FIT LIST (and i dont mean size wise). Selling stuff seems to be a huge bother to them, and god knows anyone other than themselves are too incompetent to know what they want regardless...

so i'll stick to my DHX...cheaper, more tunable, lighter...and if you've ever seen one up close, they are very nicely made (no comparison to the Vanillas)


It bothers me to say this , but it sounds like you are kind of angry at Avalanche :confused:

[zedro]

I have to agree. The Fox (the ol rc) IMO felt like sh#t !

why are we even talking about the old Vanilla stuff? its dead, gone, its so 1994.

and yeah, theres always room for custom tuning no matter what, but whats the use when the service is not available to me? I'm not going to deal with a guy who'll say "i dont know the bike, i'm not touching it".... "thats the way its supposed to be so i wont change it" or "i wont ship to canada because its too much of a bother"....

[seismic]

He would not ship it to Canada ? Well, - he shipped to me in Denmark and I think that is quite far away when compared. Now, - I am getting curious...which frame do you have ?

[OGRipper]

someone has yet to explain why the avy is worth more money, more weight, and less flexibility in switching from bike to bike (due to needing specific settings). boutique stuff is great but it comes with many hassles.

Oh wait, I know: Fox is lame cuz everyone has one :rolleyes:

[Toshi]

He would not ship it to Canada ? Well, - he shipped to me in Denmark and I think that is quite far away when compared. Now, - I am getting curious...which frame do you have ?
i bought mine off of KonaDude, who most definitely lives in canada. furthermore, he had his for his own PROTOTYPE frame, so it's not like craig is completely unwilling to deal with new designs. there must be more to the story than what zedro is letting on. yes, i had to get the shock revalved after i bought it, since i wasn't going to run it on a pdc (linkage, rising rate) but rather on my f1 (pretty linear rate as i have been told).

[seismic]

someone has yet to explain why the avy is worth more money, more weight, and less flexibility in switching from bike to bike (due to needing specific settings). boutique stuff is great but it comes with many hassles.

Oh wait, I know: Fox is lame cuz everyone has one :rolleyes:


This is only MY opinion !!!

1. Super quality...better than ANYTHING I have ever tried !
2. SUper nice compression and rebound dampning. You can feel the difference click to click.
3. A very plush feel and does not bottom out. I have mine made for taking drops after smashing most other stuff.
4. Top quality internals and last without leaking.
5. A very different type of dampning when compared to my friends. As a guy once said to me..." your rear shock feels more burly than my Monster"...I think that is close to the feel I get !

For the above 5 things I have no problem with the weight and the price. I simply love it and I feel I can trust it. That is very important for me :)

[biker3]

This is only MY opinion !!!

1. Super quality...better than ANYTHING I have ever tried !
2. SUper nice compression and rebound dampning. You can feel the difference click to click.
3. A very plush feel and does not bottom out. I have mine made for taking drops after smashing most other stuff.
4. Top quality internals and last without leaking.
5. A very different type of dampning when compared to my friends. As a guy once said to me..." your rear shock feels more burly than my Monster"...I think that is close to the feel I get !

For the above 5 things I have no problem with the weight and the price. I simply love it and I feel I can trust it. That is very important for me :)

I don't quite understand how a rear shock can feel burly? Please explain? Also its great that you like your shock and all but explain how the quality is better then ANYthing you have tried? Why don't you rephrase and say "I" like the quality better then anything? I own a 5th element and the quality is good enough. Progressives customer service is close to the best in the business and ive had no problems at all with leaking or anything else. Also if you have seen a new DHX youll notice the amazing machining and craftsmanship on the resiovior. Ive ridden my buddys v10 with a 5th and a DHX and i must say the DHX is amazing. Ive never ridden an AVY but you dont see me making comments comparing it to other companies?

[zedro]

I don't quite understand how a rear shock can feel burly?

lol, about time someone called that cliche out :thumb:

[seismic]

I don't quite understand how a rear shock can feel burly? Please explain? Also its great that you like your shock and all but explain how the quality is better then ANYthing you have tried? Why don't you rephrase and say "I" like the quality better then anything? I own a 5th element and the quality is good enough. Progressives customer service is close to the best in the business and ive had no problems at all with leaking or anything else. Also if you have seen a new DHX youll notice the amazing machining and craftsmanship on the resiovior. Ive ridden my buddys v10 with a 5th and a DHX and i must say the DHX is amazing. Ive never ridden an AVY but you dont see me making comments comparing it to other companies?


First of all I was answering the guy who wanted an explanation and as I think I wrote...this is just my opinion :think:
I have seen many 5th blow and I do not like that...I have seen Romic and the old Fox blow too...I did not like that either...that is one reason for the Avy.
The feeling when riding the Avy is massive, - it feels like you are using a shock that is very big and burly, moves very controlled and does not feel whimpy (like I found the Romic). I know it might sound odd and I have to admit that I might not be good at explaining it, - but it is the feeling I have when riding the Avy.
No, - I do not see you making comments about other companies, - but does that mean that I can not ? If I do not like certain brands or products I do not find it a problem to state my meaning or experience, as long as I state it is just my opinion.

Have you ever ridden a Monster ? and then afterwards a Boxxer or Super T ? (or any other very light fork) ...then you might know what I mean by "burly" :)

[Full Trucker]

is anyone else jealous of MX suspension technology?Ya'll can argue all ya want... but I personally don't have to be (how do you say?) "jealous" of MX squish... and I don't even need an Any or a Fox or a whatever... :sneaky:

http://www.thirtysixlame.com/journal/images/Evansuitedup.jpg

[seismic]

Way to go !

[nickaziz]

upon writing this, your post count is below 100, so it counts for nothing :p :nuts:

I apologize that I ride instead of sitting on my computer writing posts on a bicycle forum.

[nickaziz]

someone has yet to explain why the avy is worth more money, more weight, and less flexibility in switching from bike to bike (due to needing specific settings). boutique stuff is great but it comes with many hassles.

Avy absorbs big hits much better.

Avy can be set with a nice amount of sag yet still not bottom on big hits.

Avy won't blow when the compression is cranked.

Avy feels a lot more controlled.

[zedro]

I apologize that I ride instead of sitting on my computer writing posts on a bicycle forum.



wonder if you see the irony in that....

[Eddie_Lad]

as an owner of almost all shocks in my time, (so thats, cheepo dnm, cheepo unbranded, fox vanillar r, then 2 rc's, a fustfull of romics and swinger 6 way and an avy) ive gotta say there is no comparision to an avalanche, ok i KNOW ime biased, my avy has not been PERFECT, i still find little niggles

the fox and the romics were the only shocks where i really noticed any difference when i turned the knobs, the swinger just felt poo ALL the time, no exceptions.... but yesterday i was out riding and loathing my 05 dorados, its that kinda feel i just dont like!

the avalanche, BRILLIANT shock, in my oppinion its unrivalled, i would like to point out that along with 99% of the riding community have never even seen a PUSH sticker, nevermind a shock. fair enough the adjustability is mostly internal, hell the adjustments make no noticable feel to me! atall.......not a sausage! but then again, who gives a toss. i know i, along with fellow avalanche owners, 5th owners, and god knows what else owners, just leave them in a place they like. and dont bother fiddling with them all the goddam time. this is, in my hunble oppinion how everything should be, but this is only my oppinion, if you want to be sad and have arguments over adjustments and feel, again in my oppinion, you are missing the whoile point of this goddam sport, to have fun.

please enough bickering, its a shock, a part of your bike, arguments arent needed......its just silly!

thankyou for listening to my rant, i feel like an old man!

edd

[zedro]

Avy absorbs big hits much better.

Avy can be set with a nice amount of sag yet still not bottom on big hits.

Avy won't blow when the compression is cranked.

Avy feels a lot more controlled.

compared to what? everything in the known universe? so far i can claim the same...

[Eddie_Lad]

wonder if you see the irony in that....

zedro mate, i also see the irony, but why in gods name post that? to make the guy feel somehow worse about it, or you better about the whole argument? :rolleyes:

[nickaziz]

wonder if you see the irony in that....

I don't see any irony in it. Riding stuff is the best way to learn about the performance of components. Does a lot more than e-riding.

[HTFR]

Whow!

[nickaziz]

compared to what? everything in the known universe? so far i can claim the same...

I'll give some examples. Fox RC on a Scream felt like crap.... Avalanche on Scream felt way better and WORKED way better. Same goes for Swinger on BigHit DH vs. Avy on BigHit. The only other shock I've felt that feels remotely well is a 5th on a V10, but I have little real riding on it.

The avy on my brooklyn is flawless.

[neversummersnow]

I see both sides of this.

I've ridden an Avy on an Azonic Recoil (M1 copy) and I LOVED it even though it was setup for Kyle who weighed 15-20lbs lighter. (it was a bit too soft!!) Tracked awesome and felt really solid.

Then I tried to get my Gemini DH setup similar. This is where I get confused. Not trying to take anything away from Craig but I would think he would be more attune to leverage ratios/falling rate vs rising rate etc on a level much higher than myself being he is a shock TUNER. I had some serious red flags when he told me that I should be fine running a 450 spring my Gemini DH as this isn't even close to right.

It made me wonder if he even took out a calculator and figured out the leverage ratio/applied it. We never did get it setup properly which does make me wonder how sophisticated his stuff is.

Quality, Yes, it was great.

Worked great for me once and horrible for me another time, enough so I question his competence in the realm of tuning.

[seismic]

Is it something like the Gemini has a very low lever ratio making the 450 spring way to hard for your weight ?

[Eddie_Lad]

surely the linkage will make such a huge influence on the shock chosen, as demonstrated by v10's and 5ths and your gemini. i remember reading somewhere that craig doesnt reccomend his shocks for cetain frames, correct me if ime wrong but that was falling and rising rate frames (please do correct me, as this is from my terrible alcohol damaged brain)
i think this argument is more personal than i assumed, more of a "its not good for MY frame/preference...etc"

and on the origional point, i just want a mx bike, the idea of solid components and suspension, and everyone having pretty much the same bike is appealing (theres only 3 or 4 big manufacturers right?)

[vitox]

Is it something like the Gemini has a very low lever ratio making the 450 spring way to hard for your weight ?

stock spring on it is 250lbs, that sort of says it all.

[seismic]

It does indeed !

[zedro]

Then I tried to get my Gemini DH setup similar. This is where I get confused. Not trying to take anything away from Craig but I would think he would be more attune to leverage ratios/falling rate vs rising rate etc on a level much higher than myself being he is a shock TUNER. I had some serious red flags when he told me that I should be fine running a 450 spring my Gemini DH as this isn't even close to right.

It made me wonder if he even took out a calculator and figured out the leverage ratio/applied it. We never did get it setup properly which does make me wonder how sophisticated his stuff is.



this is the situation i had had when a customer bought my 2001 Stinky travel upgrade plates and bought an Avy exactly for the application. Since there wasent a application already made for the setup, Craig decided that for some mysterious reason the closest setup would be the Stab Primo. Well, not only is the leverage ratio completly off between the two, but so is the suspension rate. I made the customer aware of this but of course Craig knew best and veto'ed the suggestion i guess. The result: since the Stab has a higher ratio and more linear rate, the shock came way overdamped, just as i had warned. Not to mention the proper spring rates arent offered.

dont get me wrong, i'm just playing devils advocate here (you know, quasi-trolling Avy flag wavers :devil: ), never said Avy's werent good. Hey, the ElHefe is probably a great shock, but i dont want to deal with that company, nor with the user-tunability limitations. Both products are the same to me, as well as the companies behind them.

And geez, its just bike parts, no need to fall in love...

[seismic]

this is the situation i had had when a customer bought my 2001 Stinky travel upgrade plates and bought an Avy exactly for the application. Since there wasent a application already made for the setup, Craig decided that for some mysterious reason the closest setup would be the Stab Primo. Well, not only is the leverage ratio completly off between the two, but so is the suspension rate. I made the customer aware of this but of course Craig knew best and veto'ed the suggestion i guess. The result: since the Stab has a higher ratio and more linear rate, the shock came way overdamped, just as i had warned. Not to mention the proper spring rates arent offered.

dont get me wrong, i'm just playing devils advocate here (you know, quasi-trolling Avy flag wavers :devil: ), never said Avy's werent good. Hey, the ElHefe is probably a great shock, but i dont want to deal with that company, nor with the user-tunability limitations. Both products are the same to me, as well as the companies behind them.

And geez, its just bike parts, no need to fall in love...


Sounds like a problem :( I see your point !! Of course there can be ups and downs and there might be many different interpretations of the company. I have only had good experiences when it comes to the products, the service and the setup so I admit that I am biased and I admit that I am a extreme fan of Avalanche :) :) :) :devil:

Though...I see your point :think: :cool:

[seismic]

By the way...If you want people who are really in deep love with bike parts...the BMW
thread is the way to go !

[zedro]

By the way...If you want people who are really in deep love with bike parts...the BMW
thread is the way to go !

theres i reason i never even opened it :dead:

damn cults...

[neversummersnow]

like i said folks, when they work they work great, the technology is unquestionable. I just wonder if its more of a guessing game than it should be for the tuning side of things...its not rocket science, most of the time high school level math will suffice!

[Full Trucker]

I apologize that I ride instead of sitting on my computer writing posts on a bicycle forum.I find this ironic, coming from someone who HAD to have been sitting at a computer, writing a post on a bicycle forum. Ha! :stosh:

[Eddie_Lad]

By the way...If you want people who are really in deep love with bike parts...the BMW
thread is the way to go !

feels proud and embarrased at the same time!

were not that bad, we may love them, doesnt mean were arses about them tho!

edd

[zedro]

like i said folks, when they work they work great, the technology is unquestionable. I just wonder if its more of a guessing game than it should be for the tuning side of things...its not rocket science, most of the time high school level math will suffice!

what i find kinda funny is the touted "custom tuned" song i keep hearing. Well, my DHX is custom tuned for myself, i have my own spring, pressure and volume settings. Two Avy customers with the same bike, weight bracket (however wide that is) and ride catagory will have the exact the setup...how is that custom? I think some on-site race-tech guys might object to the terminology, anything on a application list would surely be generic.

Plus, i have a feeling an over-damped shim stack setup will 'feel' great regardless if its the best setup.

PS...remember, this is just a discussion ;)

[thaflyinfatman]

Am I the only person who doesn't want fcukloads of compression damping? For example, Boxxer Races don't bother me...

I run my rear shock with the absolute minimum of compression damping as well. Custom tuned this, custom tuned that, I haven't ridden anything that makes me go "wow i really want 4 compression dampers in my fork and seventeen in my shock"... so I kinda fail to see the big deal about Avalanches (unless of course, you like falling off stuff, aka freeriding :p).

*steps back from tinderbox*

[Jm_]

Am I the only person who doesn't want fcukloads of compression damping? For example, Boxxer Races don't bother me...
There's a difference between having compression damping and a compression damper, having compression adjustments, and having a boxxer race.

The compression damper is the shimmed affair that allows bigger hits to blow off a valve, allowing the damper to move into it's travel, the force of the oil trying to displace this valve slows down the fork. The boxxer race on the other hand relys almost entirely on spring force (and probably on some internal air-spring caused by decreasing volume). A fox vanilla non-adjustable (so not even an R) rear shock has this compression damper, as does any fox fork, any high end marzocchi, and the TPC+ manitous. There is usually a low-speed bleed to allow the fork to move under lesser impacts. The fixed-port dampers (SSV, boxxers, fluid flow, and others) usually feel much harsher on impacts because they don't have a good mechanism to increase the flow when the pressure of the oil increases. With no compression damper, you need a much higher spring rate, the fork will feel like a$$ (just like my boxxer race did) and it will especially feel bad at high speed. At slow speed, it will act ok, because at slow speed you need almost no damping, damping is provided by friction at low speed, this is why the shimmed cartridge has a "bleed" usually for low speed impacts, so it can essentially move "freely" under them.

Having a compression adjustment can be useless sometimes. Take the old fox vanilla RC. The compression adjustment basically allowed you to "close down" the passage way between the resevior and shock. This "adjustment" affects the entire range of the shock, so it only makes the thing "harsher", it's not a usefull adjustment. The usefull compression adjustments are low speed (with a blowoff) that allows you to get a little bit better pedaling, but you will sacrifice some low speed compliance, and high speed, but the tuning range of high speed compression damping is very small, it's not something where you go making huge changes. The reason that the compression adjustments on a Romic work, and the SPV air-pressure on a SPV shock works, is that it doesn't affect the entire range of movement and forces, so these "compression" adjustments can be very usefull. An "overall" compression adjustment on the other hand like the 2000 Marzocchis and old Vanilla RCs is simply useless and increasing it only makes your bike ride like crap.

The boxxer race on the other hand relys almost entirely on spring force to keep from bottoming. This is why they ride higher and harsher than other forks, because there is no real "progressiveness" or compression damping to slow it down.

[thaflyinfatman]

I know what compression damping does and how it works, I simply question the need for it.

As for Boxxer Races riding "harsher" than other forks... my experience says otherwise.

Edit: I should specify that I only ride race-ish kinda stuff (where bottoming isn't much of a concern), and I CAN see the huge value of compression damping for drops and whatnot.

[zedro]

Am I the only person who doesn't want fcukloads of compression damping?

of course you need it....when only two under-sprung springs are offered for your shock :evil:

thats Avy's philosophy tho.

[thaflyinfatman]

of course you need it....when only two under-sprung springs are offered for your shock :evil:

thats Avy's philosophy tho.


hahaha fair enough. I can understand it being totally necessary on any big-hit kinda bike, but on a race bike it doesn't make a *lot* of difference IMO. Yeah I run a bit on my forks, but I could live without it. I'd prefer the traction to the extra bottoming resistance (altho if Avys are as good as some people claim, maybe they'd give that as well - I have yet to even see one in the flesh though).

[Jm_]

I know what compression damping does and how it works, I simply question the need for it.

As for Boxxer Races riding "harsher" than other forks... my experience says otherwise.

Edit: I should specify that I only ride race-ish kinda stuff (where bottoming isn't much of a concern), and I CAN see the huge value of compression damping for drops and whatnot.
Well see, this is the difference in philosophy when talking about companies like RS vs companies that use motocross type technology. With motorcycles, you sag a considerable amount, allowing a relatively low spring weight, damping keeps the thing from bottoming out off of every impact, and controlls it. This gives you better performance overall, on all sorts of impacts.

With RS, they want you to have an over-sprung fork that doesn't bottom because it's over sprung, run it through a rock garden at high speed and it might not bottom, but it makes your hands feel like someone is hitting them repeateldy with a mallet.

[zedro]

hahaha fair enough. I can understand it being totally necessary on any big-hit kinda bike, but on a race bike it doesn't make a *lot* of difference IMO.

actually i noticed quite a difference in the DHX compression (pressure) settings to how much terrain the suspension would gobble up in a normal grounded riding situation. I could get the bike to float over stuff, eat it up (my fav), or overshoot and make the bike lunge a bit (bad). Although my particular suspension design might be exagerating these effects, which blew me away when i first started tinkering with the DHX.

[JRogers]

Why ?

I had an Avalanche and it was just okay I guess. It was harsh at lower speeds. It took big hits really well but if I wasn't going full DH speed, it was not that plush feeling. I put a 5th on my bike and it felt better at lower speeds, pedaled just as well, was lighter and took big hits fine when set up right. At one point, I had an Avy, 5th and RC and just kept the 5th on because I liked it more than the Avy. This was for general riding and for DH racing. Now, I have a different bike and have a Fox RC. It feels good, pedals fine and hasn't failed me yet.

[thaflyinfatman]

Well see, this is the difference in philosophy when talking about companies like RS vs companies that use motocross type technology. With motorcycles, you sag a considerable amount, allowing a relatively low spring weight, damping keeps the thing from bottoming out off of every impact, and controlls it. This gives you better performance overall, on all sorts of impacts.

With RS, they want you to have an over-sprung fork that doesn't bottom because it's over sprung, run it through a rock garden at high speed and it might not bottom, but it makes your hands feel like someone is hitting them repeateldy with a mallet.

Every time I've tried that rock garden test on my Boxxers I've had no issues (including a 4 minute long rock garden, aka "mt buller"). Don't take this as (another) attack on you personally, but it would appear that either your Boxxers were horribly set up, or you're some sort of gun with every other fork, and make the Boxxer seem terrible in comparison (or maybe a bit of both). I've also owned an 02 Shiver and an 02 Super T, both of those were extremely under-compression-damped (as well as being softer for any given "proper" setup compared to a Boxxer). I preferred the Boxxer's less-plush/more stiffly sprung setup simply because it has a far better cornering and braking attitude, and doesn't dive on hard hits, it just uses most (or all) of its travel then gets back to where it should be. The Shivers and the Supers both dived, a LOT (I ran em with 10wt oil btw, and never bothered to try anything higher), and this caused the front end to feel a bit more vague than with the Boxxers.

I understand the sag thing on motos, but I prefer to run my forks with relatively little sag (to keep a lot of positive travel underneath me and to keep the bars up a bit), and the weight of the bike doesn't affect the sag itself by much. Moto forks also have to absorb a lot more impact than MTB forks; for example you can't do much to lift the front end of a moto off the ground simply by tugging on the bars. Horses for courses I think.

[Jm_]

Moto forks also have to absorb a lot more impact than MTB forks; for example you can't do much to lift the front end of a moto off the ground simply by tugging on the bars. Horses for courses I think.


When speaking relatively between the two, I don't agree. Relatively a DH mtb fork has to absorb a lot of impact. You fly through the air, go off drops, nasty rock gardens, etc...

This also gets into rate, because with the boxxer only being slowed down by it's springs, it is going to ride higher like you say, but never use much of it's travel except on large impacts. With a fork that has a compression damper, it can use more of it's travel, and still not bottom on the large impact. In the end, you end up with better suspension, because the suspension is doing what it is supposed to, suspend.

I dunno, you asked if you were the only person that doesn't see the need for compression damping. This may be true, but I can't think that all of the companies that use compression dampers; fox, RS, marzocchi, manitou, WB, avalanche, etc, are just putting them in there because they like to make extra parts and make their products heavier...?

[zedro]

When speaking relatively between the two, I don't agree. Relatively a DH mtb fork has to absorb a lot of impact. You fly through the air, go off drops, nasty rock gardens, etc...



guess its simply a preference thing. The odd time i actually watched people race, i noticed two types of setups; one where bikes would just float and stay level, others where the damn thing would chatter and pitch like crazy. However both were being ridden stupid fast.

I know which setup i'd prefer tho.

[nickaziz]

I find this ironic, coming from someone who HAD to have been sitting at a computer, writing a post on a bicycle forum. Ha! :stosh:

Wow you're sure a clever one. ha-huck, ha-huck. Mr. zedro has 30 times the number of posts as me, and that was what we were discussing. He used the number of posts on this forum as a measure of credibility when it comes to giving an opinion on bike parts.

[zedro]

He used the number of posts on this forum as a measure of credibility when it comes to giving an opinion on bike parts.

i was also joking around. Had you had more experience via a higher post count, you would of caught on to that :sneaky:

(note the use of smilies is very important in comminicating context. That'll become more apparent around the 200 post count.)

[mack]

i was also joking around. Had you had more experience via a higher post count, you would of caught on to that :sneaky:

(note the use of smilies is very important in comminicating context. That'll become more apparent around the 200 post count.)
Haha, smilies are ridemonkeys tone of voice... i often forget to use them, it can get you into allot of trouble... :nono:

PS: Zedro knows his stuff N00bs .

[zedro]

Haha, smilies are ridemonkeys tone of voice... i often forget to use them, it can get you into allot of trouble... :nono:

dont shake that finger at me young man! :angry:

[mack]

shake shake shake....

:nono: :nono: :nono: :nono:

god i kill allot of time on this forum.... :sigh:

[mack]

Could you elaborate more on the Romic's desing in Compression. Are you saying that a romic's compression valve adjustment is mostly a low speed? Because i have a romic and i find the compresssion to feel through out mostly? And the what range is the rebound on the Romic, i find that to be through out as well.

Whats ur guys opinion on the 5th element type shocks. Is it true that a 5th element relies mostly on compression from the shock unit for support and not the spring? And isnt it the opposite with fox?

[ChrisKring]

Whats ur guys opinion on the 5th element type shocks. Is it true that a 5th element relies mostly on compression from the shock unit for support and not the spring? And isnt it the opposite with fox?

The 5th uses a lower spring rate coil spring due to the air pressure in the resivour acts as a spring too. But your right with respect that position sentive damping also plays a role since the compression damping ramps up at the end of stroke to prevent bottoming.

Is that clear? Otherwise, I can elaborate more.

[nickaziz]

i was also joking around. Had you had more experience via a higher post count, you would of caught on to that :sneaky:

(note the use of smilies is very important in comminicating context. That'll become more apparent around the 200 post count.)

I've read this forum for a over a year at least. And I've worked for sites with much greater memberships than this, so I think I know a thing or two about Internet communication.

Anyway, I'm sure you agree there's no need to argue about this anymore. What we must keep arguing about is rear shocks. ;)

[Brian HCM#1]

I love my Avalanche.......Is that so wrong?

[zedro]

I love my Avalanche.......Is that so wrong?

depens....does the wife know?

[Brian HCM#1]

depens....does the wife know?
Nope. I have to hide that from her :sneaky: Well at least the invoice:eek:

[zedro]

Nope. I have to hide that from her :sneaky: Well at least the invoice:eek:

sounds like you've been seeing another bank account too! :p

[Brian HCM#1]

sounds like you've been seeing another bank account too! :p
Its funny, we've been married almost 6 years and still have seporate bank accounts, she's on my checking, home savings accounts as I'm on her's, but we have different personal savings accounts for us to do what we want with our $. She works as hard as I do to earn it, she should have some spending $ to do what she wants to do with it.

[zedro]

wow, thats more leanient than some of my buddies GFs lol

[Jm_]

Are you saying that a romic's compression valve adjustment is mostly a low speed?

Yes, it is a low speed adjustment. More low speed compression will affect the overal stroke, because it's going to have to blow off every time the shock cycles, so enough low speed compression will affect the high speed function of the shock, it wont be high speed damping, it will simply be "too much" low speed damping.

[Brian HCM#1]

wow, thats more leanient than some of my buddies GFs lol
I gotta have my toys :cool:

[ChrisRobin]

Ok, here's my take on this after reading all the posts...Gotta make it quick cuz I have to go to my crappy job.

Alright, yeah I'm jealous of MX tech because they have pretty much unlimited adjustments. Although, I think almost everyone here is like me...lazy. So we're not going to be tampering with all these adjustments all the time. I'm a 'adjust-once' type a guy.
-I had a 5E very briefly and I liked it. It was on a BB7. I found Balfa's recommendations to be off when it came to shock settings but I found it was smoothe at fast speeds. I heard of people saying newer Intense M1s and Orange 222 and 223s don't work well with Avy shocks because the settings weren't accurate
-I had a Romic at the beginning of last season and I loved it. Incredibly smoothe, accurate at low and high speeds. Then it started leaking....
-I put a Fox RC on in the meantime and like the Romic, was incredibly smoothe on small hits and at low speeds but at high speeds it sucked. Felt like it was getting hung up on everything. Pushed RC would be just amazing. I'm still considering it because it would be lighter (with a Ti spring), smaller and would work at hight speeds.
-Then I got an El Jefe just because it's like an Avy shock (a little wider so fitting into certain frames might not work): MX-type tech, internal adjustments, solid and parts are easy to come by. I found at slow speeds it was a little harsher than the Romic but when you got going it just felt like it opened up and took everything and tracked well. The reason why I went for this shock? I could open it up myself in case I didn't like something as opposed to sending it away and waiting...plus Stratos has always been helpful with my stuff.

This is more like a shock review but in the end, I find your frame makes a huge difference. In my case, my Nucleon made almost everything feel really good. I don't have any allegiances with anyone.

[seismic]

Seems that the only conclusion left is that we all love our toys, - different toys maybe, but still used for the same purpose !! That is really nice !

[binary visions]

Hehehehe... I get a kick out of the fact that in the middle of a discussion that started off as MX suspension and turned into a rear shock discussion/argument, Jm STILL managed to throw in a couple Boxxer-bashing posts in response to a completely surface level comment about a Boxxer.

His custom title should be, "Love me, love my Boxxer".

:p

[seismic]

Hehehehe... I get a kick out of the fact that in the middle of a discussion that started off as MX suspension and turned into a rear shock discussion/argument, Jm STILL managed to throw in a couple Boxxer-bashing posts in response to a completely surface level comment about a Boxxer.

His custom title should be, "Love me, love my Boxxer".

:p


Yeah...the discussion took quite a turn... :think:

[mack]

i think that what makes the boxxer a good fork is weight. There is one main difference in MX technology and mnt bike technology, and that is that mnt bikes need to be concerned about weight, and cost :dead: as most of us make around middle class and have commitments.

You cannot just purely pure mx technology to mnt bikes, it has to be bread, but same concepts. Rock Shox does need to get a clue however, and smell the coffee. While the main strenghts of the boxxer are its cheap and its light, i think that the world cup should deffinetly have some better performance and still keep its 6 lb badge.

[zedro]

Yeah...the discussion took quite a turn... :think:

hehe, blame it on whoever brought up the tired MX/Avy connection.

[seismic]

Guess it is a frequent one...

[Lexx D]

hehe, blame it on whoever brought up the tired MX/Avy connection.
Or blame it on the people who decided to comment on the connection.

[ohio]

because you get to "adjust" it the way you want, not the way some snotty dude tells you how he wants to tune it.

Being a canadian with a bike not on the fit list, i wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't even want to sell me one (and there is some precedence here as well).

Zedro,
If you wanted an avy-style shock that you can tune yourself, you could pick up an el jefe. It includes instructions on how to fack with the shim stack at your local MX shop, and home maintenance won't void your warranty.

Craig is obsessive about the performance of his shock. That's part of the game. Take it or leave it. If he doesn't think he can make the shock perform perfectly for your bicycle, and there's not a lot of those bikes to amortize the commitment, it's not worth his time to figure it out. That's smart business.

[seismic]

Or blame it on the people who decided to comment on the connection.

Nope !!! Absolutely no reason what so ever to blame them :mumble: :mumble: :D :p :p :p

[leprechaun]

Ok first let me say i have only 100 something posts :cool:
Really though,I've ridden motos for 25 years(papy had me on one at 4)
People think that motos work so much better but it is not completely the case! Yes they are awesome and nearly perfect,but only in certain situations.

We are trying to (on a race course) get mountain bike suspension to be super supple,while also taking huge hits,drops massive holes etc.That is so difficult!

Motos come set up for Motocross,or Enduro.And they are valved that way.It all comes down to tuning.A Yamaha WR and YZ have nearly identical suspension components,but feel totally different.A WR can gobble big sharp rocks while seated.They also bottom off of 4' ledges.YZ's can take a 100' double and come up short,and can handle a single jump and overshoot to flat just fine.But they ride super rough offroad,kicking and bouncing all over the place on rocky trails.

I ride a 03KX 125 which has motocross valving.Since it is a 125 it comes sprung on the soft side.For motocross tracks i run the stock settings,works great.For a supercross track i run the clickers in on compressoin to take hard landings,works fine.For offroad(desert) i run the comp.clickers all the way out and it is barely soft enough,but really doesn't compare to true Enduro suspension.

Oddly enough my 888 seems enduro plush AND takes big hits soooo well!
The feel of my El Cuervo with a tuned,Push and an 888 feels as good or better than any one moto setup i've ridden!I feel it is due to the lighter weight on the bicycle(and a good rising rate frame coupled with good valving)

I Guess my point is,Serious moto guys all have their stuff valved for them to ride how they like.Mointainbike frames are all over the board in terms of suspension design,this makes it very hard for tuners.

Conclusion:If we all had similar frames we might be able to ride AVYs and get a good feel.
But since that will never happen we will need more tuneable shocks to cope.There are just too many frames and types of riders to get our suspension components streamlined like motos.
Maybe that's not such a bad thing. :blah:

[seismic]

That was a nice post !!!

[leprechaun]

thanks,man i type slow.
Maybe the moderator can bump up my post number for that! :blah:

[seismic]

Well, - yes, I actually think you nailed the problem because the discussion often ends up with "what is best" and not "what is best for which bike in a certain condition". ALso, - as you said....MX suspension does not equal supreme, un-conditional good suspension. (Well, - my words, but that was what I think I could read in your post).

[leprechaun]

True true.
I too owned an avy and for me it sucked! But i'm not going to just go and post that lame one line.
It was on an Army with stupid high leverage and Graig had it apart 10 times til he finaly said 'dude it aint gonna happen'.He was begging me to put the bike in short travel but the only spring he had was the 450.I need a 350 for the 9" short travel setting.So i never had a good experience with his shock.Is that his fault? Hell no!
I've since had a variety of shocks,but not another avy on the right bike,set up right.
I think my Push really is noty far off from what's inside the Avy.I do however get along with Darren and we share similar views on susp.setup. Probably why i am very happy with my current setup on the DH bike.
However on my ASX i have a DHX,and a Push. Since the suspension rate is different then on my Cuervo( i like the smooth gradual curve on the Cuervo)The Push feels pretty good but bottoms too harshly.The DHX has better bottoming control but not as plush.Just a diffferent susp.rate,which makes it pedal better,which is probablyfor the better for a FR bike.This is just why many peeps can't get the ride they want.

[seismic]

True true.
I too owned an avy and for me it sucked! But i'm not going to just go and post that lame one line.
It was on an Army with stupid high leverage and Graig had it apart 10 times til he finaly said 'dude it aint gonna happen'.He was begging me to put the bike in short travel but the only spring he had was the 450.I need a 350 for the 9" short travel setting.So i never had a good experience with his shock.Is that his fault? Hell no!
I've since had a variety of shocks,but not another avy on the right bike,set up right.
I think my Push really is noty far off from what's inside the Avy.I do however get along with Darren and we share similar views on susp.setup. Probably why i am very happy with my current setup on the DH bike.
However on my ASX i have a DHX,and a Push. Since the suspension rate is different then on my Cuervo( i like the smooth gradual curve on the Cuervo)The Push feels pretty good but bottoms too harshly.The DHX has better bottoming control but not as plush.Just a diffferent susp.rate,which makes it pedal better,which is probablyfor the better for a FR bike.This is just why many peeps can't get the ride they want.


Well, - I am riding an Army too. Just really curious...what happend when setting the shock in the 11" mode ?? The shock could not take it or what ?? Thought about trying myself. For the moment I keep it in 9" mode and I think it works fine for me (180lbs).
I have to admit that I actually thought the shock would be able to handle the 11" mode too, but if you have a different experience I am all ears :)

[Brian HCM#1]

True true.
I too owned an avy and for me it sucked! But i'm not going to just go and post that lame one line.
It was on an Army with stupid high leverage and Graig had it apart 10 times til he finaly said 'dude it aint gonna happen'.He was begging me to put the bike in short travel but the only spring he had was the 450.I need a 350 for the 9" short travel setting.So i never had a good experience with his shock.Is that his fault? Hell no!
I've since had a variety of shocks,but not another avy on the right bike,set up right.
I think my Push really is noty far off from what's inside the Avy.I do however get along with Darren and we share similar views on susp.setup. Probably why i am very happy with my current setup on the DH bike.
However on my ASX i have a DHX,and a Push. Since the suspension rate is different then on my Cuervo( i like the smooth gradual curve on the Cuervo)The Push feels pretty good but bottoms too harshly.The DHX has better bottoming control but not as plush.Just a diffferent susp.rate,which makes it pedal better,which is probablyfor the better for a FR bike.This is just why many peeps can't get the ride they want.
Now when you had your Army, if you would have gone with a Romic spring would that have worked for you? I love the Avy on my Army, but then again I probably weigh more than you do.

[kidwoo]

Now when you had your Army, if you would have gone with a Romic spring would that have worked for you? I love the Avy on my Army, but then again I probably weigh more than you do.

There was no "romic" when he was on that setup. :)

[leprechaun]

I could have used a Romic spring,but this was 2000,Romic was kinda not all that known then,and i got my Foes deal shortly thereafter and i gave my Avy stuff back.
In the 11" mode the bike would blow deep in the travel and would rebound really fast,giving my a serious bucking,bouncing action.A little scary.I bounced over the bars at the Rampage off a drop.
He said that if he put any more rebound damping on the shims that it would get a 'Fox' feel (rebounding visually slow when you push on the seat in the parking lot) He wouldn't set it up that way.He wants it to rebound quickly in the lot and rebound slowly when you hit something hard, going deeper into the travel.Due to the high leverage ratio he just can't set it up that way.

[seismic]

OK, - I see the problem ! Not the right shock for the 11" setup !

[Lexx D]

OK, - I see the problem ! Not the right shock for the 11" setup !
From what I've read no shock was good for the 11" setup.

[Brian HCM#1]

There was no "romic" when he was on that setup. :)
Thats right, they really didn't come around till late 2001.

[seismic]

From what I've read no shock was good for the 11" setup.

second that :)

[HTFR]

guess its simply a preference thing. The odd time i actually watched people race, i noticed two types of setups; one where bikes would just float and stay level, others where the damn thing would chatter and pitch like crazy. However both were being ridden stupid fast.

I know which setup i'd prefer tho.

thats the best thing ive heard all night.

[tmx]

Fascinating to me that these quote come from the same individual. "If we all had similar frames we might be able to ride AVYs and get a good feel." "I too owned an avy and for me it sucked!"

Hey Krispy, can you explain what it was about the Av that made you feel the componant was a valuable asset even though it wasn't serving you properly with the frame you were running at the time?

Thanks,
Terry (You did give my regards to Mrs. B, right?!!!)

[zedro]

Fascinating to me that these quote come from the same individual. "If we all had similar frames we might be able to ride AVYs and get a good feel." "I too owned an avy and for me it sucked!"



not so fascinating if you understood his point, the context given in the body of the post. He was commenting on suspension design vs. shock design, and how the two may not be in sync or appropriate for one another given the use. He musta felt this was the case for himself.

[mack]

just while were on this situation, what the ideal shock for a giant DH? I am running a romic and it feels very nice, maybe the progression gets a little too steep to early but i was just curiose as to what type of leverage that frame is? i would guess high?

[tmx]

not so fascinating if you understood his point, the context given in the body of the post. He was commenting on suspension design vs. shock design, and how the two may not be in sync or appropriate for one another given the use. He musta felt this was the case for himself.

Thanks Zedro. I did understand his point and was looking for specific detail from Kris and his specific experience.

It is still fascinating to me that someone can conclude a shock to be as substantial as Kris had indicated by his first quote given his experience from the second quote. Though, since you've chosen to respond to my inquiry, and given the extensive knowlege you exude on RM, it seems even more-so fascinating that you lean towards negating the Avalanche worthiness based on Craig's unwilliness to work with yours/new/unfamiliar designs. I understand you have not indicated Avalanche as a bad shock, but I have taken much of what you've indicated here as a downplay of it's worthiness.

[OGRipper]

It is fascinating to me that you took so long and still came up short of simply saying "I disagree with you Zedro, but don't hate me."

[tmx]

It is fascinating to me that you took so long and still came up short of simply saying "I disagree with you Zedro, but don't hate me."

You aren't directing that at me, are you? If you actually are....I don't mind if Zedro "hates" me or my choice of rear suspension. Zed indicated himself that it's just a component, we don't have to "fall in love" with it. Good grief, I hope you aren't referring to my post. I have admired Zed's posts for a long time and found this response rather curious, that's all. I'm writing while working...overtime...and didn't realize there was a time-frame, in addition to post counts, on what makes a worthy response in a technical thread.

edit: I've waited over three-minutes for a reply but can wait no longer. Time to ride after 16 hours of work. Tech-on with your own bad self.

[zedro]

Though, since you've chosen to respond to my inquiry, and given the extensive knowlege you exude on RM, it seems even more-so fascinating that you lean towards negating the Avalanche worthiness based on Craig's unwilliness to work with yours/new/unfamiliar designs. I understand you have not indicated Avalanche as a bad shock, but I have taken much of what you've indicated here as a downplay of it's worthiness.

lemmee guess, your an Avy booster right?:think:

anyways, sorta in the same line as Krispy opinion, it simply isnt my best option (CS and limited tuning only one of the reasons), and it may not be for others. I know this is hard for cult members to understand, but there is no such thing as the 'best for everything', no matter what we are talking about.

I'm very sorry i havent used my "extensive knowlege (that I) exude on RM" to further glorify the ultimate-ness that is unquestionably bestowed upon Avy by all whom spend better than others. Thank you and god bless. :blah:

[tmx]

lemmee guess, your an Avy booster right?:think:

anyways, sorta in the same line as Krispy opinion, it simply isnt my best option (CS and limited tuning only one of the reasons), and it may not be for others. I know this is hard for cult members to understand, but there is no such thing as the 'best for everything', no matter what we are talking about.

I'm very sorry i havent used my "extensive knowlege (that I) exude on RM" to further glorify the ultimate-ness that is unquestionably bestowed upon Avy by all whom spend better than others. Thank you and god bless. :blah:

God?? Oy vay. And you don't have to be sorry. You're definately jumping to conclusions about what I was asking Kris. I never said anything about Avalanche being best for all. I have never concluded that any bike related anything is best for all and often argue otherwise.

No sir, I'm not an "Avy booster" (and have plenty of personal experience to prove otherwise) and I'm bummed my post somehow left you feeling this is what my inquiry was about. I am genuinely intrigued that someone could conclude a product to be substantially worthy even though their experience with it was not a great one.

[zedro]

I am genuinely intrigued that someone could conclude a product to be substantially worthy even though their experience with it was not a great one.

oooooo ok, i'm stupid, i completly misinterpreted your comments. :o:

[ChrisRobin]

I think everyone should to back to basics here...take a piece of wood, soak it in the bath tube in warm, soapy water and bolt it into your frame.

[seismic]

I think everyone should to back to basics here...take a piece of wood, soak it in the bath tube in warm, soapy water and bolt it into your frame.

Great idea :) Then if you meet a fan of another brand of wood-shocks in the wood, you can always smack him in the head with your piece of wood :p :p :p :p :p

[zedro]

yes ok but how do i tune said piece of wood? Is pine or maple better for high speed dropoffs?

[HTFR]

what about service, hoes the CS with this block of wood?

[zedro]

depens, or you on the fit list?

[seismic]

depens, or you on the fit list?


....and if not :dead:

[leprechaun]

Fascinating to me that these quote come from the same individual. "If we all had similar frames we might be able to ride AVYs and get a good feel." "I too owned an avy and for me it sucked!"

Hey Krispy, can you explain what it was about the Av that made you feel the componant was a valuable asset even though it wasn't serving you properly with the frame you were running at the time?

Thanks,
Terry (You did give my regards to Mrs. B, right?!!!)

Hey Terry
Ok say we were to all ride bikes that were made by 5 different brands but all has a rising rate linkage,same travel, 3 to 1 leverage rate and were ridden in similar terrain.And lets say that we have been riding these bikes for 15 years this way.
It would be relatively easy for Craig or any other tuner to set up the shock nearly perfectly, and the tuner could also make adjustments for individual riders'ablilty level and needs and get good results.
I feel that if you have the right bike the avy would be a very valuable component.
I made the comment that mine sucked-and immediatly told why-to bring a face to my post.I was trying to convey that despite my knowledge in suspension i could still have a bad experience due to having a unique problem.
I'm a little suprised that you would put those 2 quotes right next to each other though.

[ChrisRobin]

Now that I think of it...I'm surprised no one's come out with some sort of 'upgrade' kit for suspension forks. Once in a while you see posts about people complaining about compression spiking for example so would be interesting to see someone develop internals for a fork to give it better compression damping (kinda like Push Ind. modifying Fox RCs).

Or we keep going the way we are now: every two years sell your suspension for almost no money and pay a lot for new stuff.

[ChrisRobin]

yes ok but how do i tune said piece of wood? Is pine or maple better for high speed dropoffs?

It depends on how long you let it soak in the tub.

[zedro]

I was trying to convey that despite my knowledge in suspension i could still have a bad experience due to having a unique problem.


shows how far intellectual maturity will take you here :p

[zedro]

Now that I think of it...I'm surprised no one's come out with some sort of 'upgrade' kit for suspension forks. Once in a while you see posts about people complaining about compression spiking for example so would be interesting to see someone develop internals for a fork to give it better compression damping (kinda like Push Ind. modifying Fox RCs).

Or we keep going the way we are now: every two years sell your suspension for almost no money and pay a lot for new stuff.

well, there are for Boxxers at least. Then theres the inertia dampers from Stratos for various forks.

[buildyourown]

Now that I think of it...I'm surprised no one's come out with some sort of 'upgrade' kit for suspension forks. Once in a while you see posts about people complaining about compression spiking for example so would be interesting to see someone develop internals for a fork to give it better compression damping (kinda like Push Ind. modifying Fox RCs).

Or we keep going the way we are now: every two years sell your suspension for almost no money and pay a lot for new stuff.

Lots of companies have attempted the upgrade cart.
Mojo, White Bros, Englund.

The problem is that the cart costs as much as a new fork.

[ChrisRobin]

I was thinking of something like the Stratos ID cartridge that would fix rebound AND compression and that could be adapted to all kinds of forks.

[vitox]

i think there arent many upgrades and kits for forks because they change all the time and because there are so many brands, lots of r&d cost can get obsolete next sea otter, interbike, eurobike, etc.

[seismic]

Well, - if the companies just made some good forks for standard then we would not need all this crap.

[ChrisRobin]

Well, - if the companies just made some good forks for standard then we would not need all this crap.

Ha! good point.

[vitox]

why are we even talking about the old Vanilla stuff? its dead, gone, its so 1994.

and yeah, theres always room for custom tuning no matter what, but whats the use when the service is not available to me? I'm not going to deal with a guy who'll say "i dont know the bike, i'm not touching it".... "thats the way its supposed to be so i wont change it" or "i wont ship to canada because its too much of a bother"....


you know zed, ive been in your situation, meaning your EXACT situation, and my experience is pretty much totally opposite.

with that im not saying that craig is the most communicative seller ive dealt with, or that he is the kind of guy that doesnt mind taking forever on the phone to sell you his gear, but while keeping on the subject he has always been really helpful and very effective tuning-wise.

[seismic]

I agree!! Craig is super nice when it comes to service. I have to admit that Avalanche is the company where I have gotten the best service yet !! No doubt what so ever !

[tmx]

Hey Terry
Ok say we were to all ride bikes that were made by 5 different brands but all has a rising rate linkage,same travel, 3 to 1 leverage rate and were ridden in similar terrain.And lets say that we have been riding these bikes for 15 years this way.
It would be relatively easy for Craig or any other tuner to set up the shock nearly perfectly, and the tuner could also make adjustments for individual riders'ablilty level and needs and get good results.
I feel that if you have the right bike the avy would be a very valuable component.
I made the comment that mine sucked-and immediatly told why-to bring a face to my post.I was trying to convey that despite my knowledge in suspension i could still have a bad experience due to having a unique problem.
I'm a little suprised that you would put those 2 quotes right next to each other though.

Hey Kris, thanks for the explanation. I was hoping for specific detail to your particular experience but no worries. The bottom line without the detail has been obvious, your extensive experience with a wide variety of suspension (mx to dh and everything in between) enable you to sense if it's a good shock regardless if it performs optimally with your frame or not. Though I'm not quite as fluent in the minute details of the technical arena, I'm fascinated by it in others.

About the quotes...It was the dichotomy of the two that struck my interest, not that I was questioning you or their validity. Kinda sucks my inquiry was misunderstood by both you and Zedro. Was totally not waving the pro-Av flag nor calling you out. While the grab of those two quotes create a seeming dichotomy, they are not a contradiction and do not negate your point.

[leprechaun]

now Terry we all know that ALL Brooklyns come with:
1 Avy shocks
2 I love my brooklyn with an Avy bumper sticker
3 "If it don't have an Avy it better be a Hardtail" T shirt!
:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

Love Krispy(and Carrie and little Tanner too) :)

[mack]

this is by far one of the more confusing RM threads. :confused:

stop the bickering, aka, misinterpritations. (sp?)

[thaflyinfatman]

When speaking relatively between the two, I don't agree. Relatively a DH mtb fork has to absorb a lot of impact. You fly through the air, go off drops, nasty rock gardens, etc...

This also gets into rate, because with the boxxer only being slowed down by it's springs, it is going to ride higher like you say, but never use much of it's travel except on large impacts. With a fork that has a compression damper, it can use more of it's travel, and still not bottom on the large impact. In the end, you end up with better suspension, because the suspension is doing what it is supposed to, suspend.

I dunno, you asked if you were the only person that doesn't see the need for compression damping. This may be true, but I can't think that all of the companies that use compression dampers; fox, RS, marzocchi, manitou, WB, avalanche, etc, are just putting them in there because they like to make extra parts and make their products heavier...?

A moto fork does everything a DH fork does (on a larger scale to boot, and if you think rock gardens are rough, take a close look at the braking bumps on a moto track one day - they can get to be nearly a foot deep!), but it does it with a relatively inanimate mass on top of it too (the 80 odd kilos of suspended bike). Unlike a person which will deform (ie bend your legs/arms) when he/she hits something, the moto simply smacks into it and the suspension has to deal with a lot of the impact on its own (neglecting throttle/brake use and weight shift by the rider, although these still can't replicate what a person can do on an mtb).

As you said (or implied) about rate, the Boxxer is pretty linear for the most part of its travel, but I have mine setup so as to resist bottoming pneumatically (ie oil height being fairly high), and at 210lbs with stock springs and bugger all compression damping, I feel that it works pretty well. It allows the fork to move pretty much unhindered on smaller stuff, and not bottom too harshly or blow through travel. Just my preference though, I guess. I used to love my Marzocchis, but I wouldn't go back to them now - the ride characteristics of the Boxxer (not just the damping, just the overall linear feel etc) is what I find works best for me. Obviously not for everyone though.

Like you said, they wouldn't make them if they didn't serve a purpose though (for some people at least). Maybe I'm just unusual with how I set my bike up, although most people I ride with have similar setups. I have noticed that a *small* amount of compression damping smooths the stroke out somewhat (maybe due to minor inconsistencies/friction effects of the springs/seals being ironed out?), but too much compression damping seems to compromise small-bump absorption and traction... and to me they are the most important things (being the racerhack that I am).

[Jm_]

too much compression damping seems to compromise small-bump absorption and traction... and to me they are the most important things (being the racerhack that I am).

I totally agree, too much can make the suspension feel pretty horrible. This is why the "compression" adjustments on some older products like fox vanilla RCs and 2000 cartridge marzocchis were just useless, the usefull range was so small but the adjustments were huge by comparission, so all they ended up doing was making the fork feel like crap when you turned them up.

[ChrisRobin]

I totally agree, too much can make the suspension feel pretty horrible. This is why the "compression" adjustments on some older products like fox vanilla RCs and 2000 cartridge marzocchis were just useless, the usefull range was so small but the adjustments were huge by comparission, so all they ended up doing was making the fork feel like crap when you turned them up.

What's the solution for people that still ride forks with useless compression dampers? At that point can you take them out because all they're doing is adding weight and causing hydraulic lock. What would happen then?

[Jm_]

What's the solution for people that still ride forks with useless compression dampers? At that point can you take them out because all they're doing is adding weight and causing hydraulic lock. What would happen then?
No, you're not making the distinction between a compression DAMPER and compression damping ADJUSTMENTS.

I didn't say the damper was useless, I said the range of adjustments was useless often.

[ChrisRobin]

I know what you're saying but what I meant is if you're not using your compression damping adjustment because it causes bad suspension performance, what's the use of having that damper in the fork???

[Jm_]

I know what you're saying but what I meant is if you're not using your compression adjustment because it causes bad suspension performance, what's the use of having that faulty damper in the fork???
it's still doing work. every marzocchi has a compression damper, even if it doesn't have adjustments. This is true for almost every high end fork. Do you need to be able to manually change your valve timing in your car constantly? No. Do your valves need to be timed correctly? Yes. Just because it's not adjustable doesn't mean it isn't doing anything. Your rear shock has a compression damper too, and on many shocks you can't ajust it. The romic only does low-speed compression ADJUSTMENT, but it most definitely has a compression damper.

I didn't say that a compression adjustment always resulted in bad performance either, we are talking about specific cases and shocks here.

[mack]

yes, dampners tend to be usefull.... try taking your out and letting us know how it works. u might just want to mount a pogo stick to the bike w/o a dampner.

[binary visions]

yes, dampners tend to be usefull.... try taking your out and letting us know how it works. u might just want to mount a pogo stick to the bike w/o a dampner.
Actually, absolutely nothing would happen if you removed the "dampner" from your fork...


...'cause it doesn't have one. It does have a damper though...

[Jeremy R]

Actually, absolutely nothing would happen if you removed the "dampner" from your fork...


...'cause it doesn't have one. It does have a damper though...

Yea, but how would that effect the dampenening? :dancing:

[binary visions]

Yea, but how would that effect the dampenening? :dancing:
Fork dampening is caused by people who are so busy crying about the fork that they have no time to ride it.

see also: 888 crowns, Boxxers

[Jeremy R]

Fork dampening is caused by people who are so busy crying about the fork that they have no time to ride it.

see also: 888 crowns, Boxxers

I had alot of fork dampening when I used to have a RST Hi-5.

[thaflyinfatman]

yes, dampners tend to be usefull.... try taking your out and letting us know how it works. u might just want to mount a pogo stick to the bike w/o a dampner.

No rebound damper = pogo. But we're talking about compression dampers here..

[zedro]

No rebound damper = pogo. But we're talking about compression dampers here..

which = clank clank...

[thaflyinfatman]

which = clank clank...


Huh??

[zedro]

Huh??

no compression damping = bottom out, unless your fork is insanely sprung which is crap anyways.

[thaflyinfatman]

no compression damping = bottom out, unless your fork is insanely sprung which is crap anyways.

Or you have some kind of progression, which pretty much every DH fork on the market does anyway... eg oil height adjustments. Marz forks have so little compression damping it's not funny (although that's what I'm often after) but are renowned for their ability to be set up so as not to bottom...

[zedro]

Or you have some kind of progression, which pretty much every DH fork on the market does anyway... eg oil height adjustments. Marz forks have so little compression damping it's not funny (although that's what I'm often after) but are renowned for their ability to be set up so as not to bottom...
still need some damping however. Marz's have more than you think, they just have a nice and low high-speed compression damping rate which keeps them extra supple.

[thaflyinfatman]

still need some damping however. Marz's have more than you think, they just have a nice and low high-speed compression damping rate which keeps them extra supple.

I dunno, the ease with which I could move the damper rods by hand (when immersed in oil, attached to the bottom of the fork but not the top) doesn't convince me at all. Every Marz fork I've had (apart from my awesomely oversprung Z1) has had a lot of dive, and when lacking the correct oil height, has been extremely easy to bottom. So I'd say the oil height is doing a hell of a lot more than the damping.

[thaflyinfatman]

P.S. I will keep arguing the toss, even though I don't care and I like Marz forks, until everyone else stops caring/arguing :)

[seismic]

I dunno, the ease with which I could move the damper rods by hand (when immersed in oil, attached to the bottom of the fork but not the top) doesn't convince me at all. Every Marz fork I've had (apart from my awesomely oversprung Z1) has had a lot of dive, and when lacking the correct oil height, has been extremely easy to bottom. So I'd say the oil height is doing a hell of a lot more than the damping.


I agree :thumb: :dancing:

[zedro]

heh, hard to say which does "more", since they are two completly different things....just saying its there and the fork would suck without it.

[zedro]

just have to add, damping doesnt limit the amount of dive since thats an increase in weight to the front end; damping will slow the transition (because its a transient component) but the fork will want to settle to the same point. Marz forks tend to dive alot because they do rely on oil height which makes for a progressively sprung fork; progressive springs will dive more.

This is tuning tho, people like that soft progressive feel you can get with them, but you will get dive. To lessen the amount of dive, you'll need stiffer springs, but you'll lose that Marz plush.

The only way damping can limit the amount of dive is if it locks out, or the weight transfer ceases before the fork reaches equilibrium.

[seismic]

SOunds kind of right !

[thaflyinfatman]

just have to add, damping doesnt limit the amount of dive since thats an increase in weight to the front end; damping will slow the transition (because its a transient component) but the fork will want to settle to the same point. Marz forks tend to dive alot because they do rely on oil height which makes for a progressively sprung fork; progressive springs will dive more.

This is tuning tho, people like that soft progressive feel you can get with them, but you will get dive. To lessen the amount of dive, you'll need stiffer springs, but you'll lose that Marz plush.

The only way damping can limit the amount of dive is if it locks out, or the weight transfer ceases before the fork reaches equilibrium.

That last line is what makes the difference... weight transfer is generally inconsistent (under braking, because you're only doing it for a second or two), you very rarely load up your fork to a point and sit there. Given that suspension is underdamped (as the technical definition of damping goes), you usually "overshoot" the equilibrium point anyway, and the damping does affect how much you do this. On a fork like my old Supers for instance, jumping on the brakes would come damn close to bottoming the fork (ironically, I never once managed to bottom them), then they'd extend again (whilst still braking), causing the bars to move up and down a bit more than I like.

[zedro]

yeah it'll make a difference depending on ride styles and terrain. But funny enough, since i got the new bike with a floater, excessive dive on my Shiver (which is setup pretty soft) is a thing of the past.

Before with heavier oil w/medium springs, the dive was too much for my long interval braking, so i had to switch to stiffer coils and ended up using lighter oil (felt it was too slow before), which improved the dive problem.

[zedro]

Given that suspension is underdamped (as the technical definition of damping goes), you usually "overshoot" the equilibrium point anyway, and the damping does affect how much you do this.

also i've never felt the Marzs were under-damped (even with 5wt); that would mean the fork would actually bounce back during the braking interval, something i've never felt even in my worst 'dive' setup. Perhaps it's in the critically damped range which would give it a fast response time.

Anyways back to the original point, i still maintain a non-damped compression cycle would be practically unridable and could not be governed by spring-rate alone.

[thaflyinfatman]

also i've never felt the Marzs were under-damped (even with 5wt); that would mean the fork would actually bounce back during the braking interval, something i've never felt even in my worst 'dive' setup. Perhaps it's in the critically damped range which would give it a fast response time.

Anyways back to the original point, i still maintain a non-damped compression cycle would be practically unridable and could not be governed by spring-rate alone.

Mine noticeably bounced back, maybe only an inch or so (obviously it's not gonna extend fully again), but it definitely did it. I ran 7wt and 10wt in my Marz forks (Shiver, Z1, Super T and Z3) and both the Shiver and the Super did it.

When you say a non-damped compression cycle, do you mean no compression damping, but still having rebound damping? Or do you mean no damping at all? I agree that having no rebound damping will make anything unrideable, but Boxxer Races ARE rideable, and honestly not that different from most forks.

[zedro]

bounced back while still braking? or after you stopped/decreased braking?

and i have a hard time believing that Boxxers have zero compression damping, and otherwise you'd be complaining they overshoot a dive, or feel like a Marzocchi...

[thaflyinfatman]

bounced back while still braking? or after you stopped/decreased braking?

and i have a hard time believing that Boxxers have zero compression damping, and otherwise you'd be complaining they overshoot a dive, or feel like a Marzocchi...

Whilst still braking. If you jump on the brakes really suddenly, they'll dive to a poofteenth from bottoming... and if you think anything is gonna stay there for long... ;)

Boxxer RACES do not have a compression damper. It just isn't there. They do dive a bit more than the Teams, but they don't feel like a Marz usually does (due to the overall spring rate I would guess). The ones I've ridden have all been set with retardofast rebound, so yeah they do overshoot then rebound. Due to the more linear feel though, they don't do it as noticeably as my Supers did (the Supers were way undersprung for me though) or to a lesser extent, my Shivers. It's not that big a deal, I intended to use that as an example more than a point of contention in itself... but whatever.