Someone's in trouble [Archive]

valve bouncer

11-15-2004, 10:25 PM

Interesting to see what happens in this case
http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Wounded-Iraqi-prisoner-shot-dead-TV-report/2004/11/16/1100384537336.html
Possible public relations nightmare in the making.

I Are Baboon

11-16-2004, 09:12 AM

War ain't pretty. I doubt this is the first wounded, unarmed enemy to be killed in combat.

llkoolkeg

11-16-2004, 09:35 AM

This is nothing really new. Earlier this Summer, I saw a video of this one soldier shooting dead a wounded irregular that was crawling around. Pretty lame interview of the cat, too, but having never been in a situation remotely as horrifying as that myself, who knows...

BikeGeek

11-16-2004, 09:51 AM

I read that he had recently returned to the field having been shot in the face in a previous firefight. :eek: That's got to leave a mental scar.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041115/wl_nm/iraq_marine_shooting_dc_2

Slugman

11-16-2004, 10:47 AM

Also, according to news reports, it seems that the terrorist was either dead or faking dead... so if he was indeed dead then so what? If he was faking dead then he's got his 72 virgins by now.
:stupid:
Military officials said some insurgents were known to have attacked US soldiers after luring them in by pretending to be dead and then opening fire.

It's quite possibly that the Marine saved he and his buddies lives by doing it...

zod

11-16-2004, 11:17 AM

War has pressures that none of us civilians will ever understand......things like this are going to happen in the heat of battle. Personally I don't think he did anything wrong, the man should not have played possum.

Lexx D

11-16-2004, 11:21 AM

Echo

11-16-2004, 11:23 AM

Whether or not that particular insurgent was faking, he can thank the other insurgents who faked injury for his fate.

CHOP

11-16-2004, 11:49 AM

Being a former Army Ranger, I totally understand this. Hard to send a Marine into a building in which they were earlier getting shot at from and expect him to shake hands with the enemy. Not gonna happen. War is real, especially urban warfare, not a video game.

valve bouncer

11-16-2004, 12:16 PM

I don't see the big deal. Either the guy was playing dead or he was injured. Either way he was shooting at american soldiers before this happened. So what do you do nurse him back to health so he can come back and try to fight again?
Apparently Marines had left the wounded insurgents there the day before and then returned and they were unarmed. Do you advocate a take no prisoners policy?

PoserNewbie

11-16-2004, 12:18 PM

Yeah, I'm sure this things happen all the time. It is just unfortunate that this one was caught on tape and all the hyprocrite will be crying foul. The fact that this is a war and bad things happen in war. You can thank commander Bush for this one.

DRB

11-16-2004, 12:38 PM

Being a former Army Ranger, I totally understand this.

Understand what?

Hard to send a Marine into a building in which they were earlier getting shot at from and expect him to shake hands with the enemy. Not gonna happen. War is real, especially urban warfare, not a video game.

Okay then how come they didn't shoot the second Iraqi who was actually moving?

Andyman_1970

11-16-2004, 12:49 PM

War has pressures that none of us civilians will ever understand......things like this are going to happen in the heat of battle.

I totally agree, rushing into a room full of hostiles would be some scary poo.

Echo

11-16-2004, 12:51 PM

Understand what?

Okay then how come they didn't shoot the second Iraqi who was actually moving?
Sounds like you should go over there and help out, since you are an expert of how to handle situations like that.

DRB

11-16-2004, 12:57 PM

Sounds like you should go over there and help out, since you are an expert of how to handle situations like that.

I have been places that would have made you crap your pants. So why don't you try it out and then we can talk on equal footing.

ohio

11-16-2004, 01:32 PM

Funny thing is that our media forgets about all the insurgent beheading vid's.

Yes, let's stoop to the level of the insurgents.
I was mistaken, but I thought we were trying to set a higher standard...

I agree with the others that I can't offer an opinion about this particular marine without knowing the facts, but I can certainly offer an opinion about moronic statements like that.

Even if it is a given that there will be mistakes in combat, we should still be doing what we can to prevent them and demonstrate regret when they occur.

Echo

11-16-2004, 01:35 PM

I have been places that would have made you crap your pants. So why don't you try it out and then we can talk on equal footing.
Doubt it. Unless you are much older than you act on here, I was in the Persian Gulf while you were still in elementary school.

Echo

11-16-2004, 01:43 PM

I agree with the others that I can't offer an opinion about this particular marine without knowing the facts
With all due respect man, the only "fact" that was probably relevant at that time was the "fact" that insurgents have been playing injured and then shooting marines. Like I said, they made their bed by doing that, now their real injured guys get to lie in it. Sorry but c'est la vie. They made the rules.

Andyman_1970

11-16-2004, 01:58 PM

With all due respect man, the only "fact" that was probably relevant at that time was the "fact" that insurgents have been playing injured and then shooting marines. Like I said, they made their bed by doing that, now their real injured guys get to lie in it. Sorry but c'est la vie. They made the rules.

If that's the case, and that was their MO, then if I was doing a "room to room" I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing that Marine did. This is the problem when you don't play by the "rules" as it were.

BurlyShirley

11-16-2004, 02:04 PM

I'd've shot him twice, then spit on the carcass.

Slugman

11-16-2004, 02:14 PM

Just yell "gun" - then it's OK to shoot anyone!

ohio

11-16-2004, 02:14 PM

I knew it was a short matter of time until one of you "anti-US, I'm movin' to Canada" Lib's said that...

You're such a douche. Saying it doesn't make it true... I've been a pretty staunch patriot and have never even hinted at leaving this country.

I am well aware that the insurgents methods are dispicable and we do nothing at all similar. I was addressing YOUR comments, not our actions.

Echo, I hear you and agree somewhat. This guy almost certainly had what was coming to him, or at least can blame his possum buddies for creating the situation. However, that does not remove our obligation to hold ourselves to a high standard. (edit: also, I think you may have DRB confused with DBR or someone else)

Lexx D

11-16-2004, 02:16 PM

You're such a douche.
You just figured this out?" :p

Echo

11-16-2004, 02:18 PM

You're such a douche.
I wonder if this forum will ever figure out that if everyone ignored him he would disappear.

ohio

11-16-2004, 02:25 PM

Sounds like an excellent use of military resources to me...

Yes. Yes it is.

Like I was saying, it wouldn't suprise me and wouldn't bother me tremendously if similar cases occur all over Iraq, but it is very very important that if any of them become public or are viewed by bystanders that they are publicly and thoroughly investigated. The fact that we have higher standards in warfare than the enemy will mean nothing if we don't demonstrate that every chance we get. Failure to do so jeopardizes not only our public image, but also our ability to raise the enemy's standards which in turn protects our soldiers.

If it means that we have to devote 5 military lawyers and pull 1 marine for every 1 out of 500 cases, that's a great use of resources.

But thank you for your short-sightedness.

Andyman_1970

11-16-2004, 02:27 PM

Echo, I hear you and agree somewhat. This guy almost certainly had what was coming to him, or at least can blame his possum buddies for creating the situation. However, that does not remove our obligation to hold ourselves to a high standard. (edit: also, I think you may have DRB confused with DBR or someone else)

Does this supercede our obligation to protect our troops from a combatant that is not "playing by the rules"?

BurlyShirley

11-16-2004, 02:35 PM

Does this supercede our obligation to protect our troops from a combatant that is not "playing by the rules"?
If winning this war involves winning the hearts and minds, then yes.

DRB

11-16-2004, 03:01 PM

Doubt it. Unless you are much older than you act on here, I was in the Persian Gulf while you were still in elementary school.

EDIT:

If that's as close as you pay attention then you ain't worth the effort.

BurlyShirley

11-16-2004, 03:02 PM

officers = :stosh:

Lexx D

11-16-2004, 03:05 PM

officers = :stosh:
Yeah forget being an officer. I'd rather be a grunt. :thumb:

DRB

11-16-2004, 03:13 PM

officers = :stosh:

Did I just hear a public affairs person talking?

DRB

11-16-2004, 03:28 PM

Guessing you mean KERREY, as in Bob Kerrey former Democratic Senator from Nebraska.

BurlyShirley

11-16-2004, 03:35 PM

Did I just hear a public affairs person talking?
Yes. One with a fully-functional, never-shattered leg ;)

Slugman

11-16-2004, 03:37 PM

So where was the outrage against Kerry when he admitted doing worse than this in Vietnam?
yeah, no one ever protest anything about Vietnam :stosh:

Echo

11-16-2004, 03:50 PM

EDIT:

If that's as close as you pay attention then you ain't worth the effort.
Sorry man, but I picture the whole respect cult as a bunch of 15 year olds. I don't think I'm alone in that opinion either. If I got it wrong, fine. But you didn't do much better with your "been places that would make you crap your pants" comment.

DRB

11-16-2004, 04:05 PM

Sorry man, but I picture the whole respect cult as a bunch of 15 year olds. I don't think I'm alone in that opinion either. If I got it wrong, fine. But you didn't do much better with your "been places that would make you crap your pants" comment.

And it all started with
Sounds like you should go over there and help out, since you are an expert of how to handle situations like that.

Echo

11-16-2004, 04:09 PM

Actually it started with:
Okay then how come they didn't shoot the second Iraqi who was actually moving?
You making assumptions about what was done, and what should have been done differently, when you weren't there and know nothing about the situation outside of a couple of small tidbits of information from the internet.

DRB

11-16-2004, 04:21 PM

Actually it started with:

You making assumptions about what was done, and what should have been done differently, when you weren't there and know nothing about the situation outside of a couple of small tidbits of information from the internet.

No I asked two questions based on what someone else had posted.

The first one being was what understanding he mentioned being an Army Ranger (something I have a little experience with) gave Chop.

The second one being....

Okay then how come they didn't shoot the second Iraqi who was actually moving?

Which in the circumstances is probably going to be the very first question that investigators are going to ask. I never said one way or the other whether I thought the Marine was right or wrong. I do have the experience both in training and in real life on numerous occassions, in my opinion, to make such a judgement.

And any conclusion, imagined or otherwise, I may have come to is no different than your own free pass you have seemingly provided this Marine.

BurlyShirley

11-16-2004, 04:27 PM

well this thread sure got gay

DRB

11-16-2004, 04:28 PM

Nah... JF Kerry... as in, "shoot the wounded VietCong freedom fighter in the back and get a Bronze Star" Kerry...

Then there was a pretty big deal about it....... Seems I saw commercials, newspaper ads, and all sorts of debate about it.

And I thought that it was faked and he didn't do anything? Ya'll don't get it both ways or at least you shouldn't.

ohio

11-16-2004, 04:49 PM

Does this supercede our obligation to protect our troops from a combatant that is not "playing by the rules"?

It is that marine's and his officer's obligation to protect him from such a combatant. It is our obligation to then ensure that such protective actions are reasonable and necessary.

I believe what is in question is whether this marine's actions were reasonable and necessary, and I have no problem with asking that question. Nothing would make me happier than to find out the answer is "yes."

MikeD

11-16-2004, 07:19 PM

The question is, did the Marine have reason to believe the person was a threat? We can't really answer that from the video.

What is assured is that this video won't be good for us, PR-wise.

And Burly, I'd rather be an 0302 than a pouge e-dog anyday...but I digress. Lexx, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. I'm an officer, and I'm a grunt. A grunt is an infantryman of any rank. There are plenty of enlisted personnel who aren't grunts.

If you want to talk **** about officers, I suggest you enlist. Then you might have a tad of credibility, even if you end up in Public Affairs. Or try going to OCS and see if you can hack that.

MD

BurlyShirley

11-16-2004, 07:25 PM

even if you end up in Public Affairs

:p what's worse is that i didnt just "end up" there, i requested it. :dancing:

But whatever, I just got to do all the cool stuff and almost none of the BS. I cant complain.

I really have no issue with officers, I was just busting on DRB before he edited his post. There are some good guys out there who dont take themselves too seriously.

DRB

11-16-2004, 07:32 PM

:p what's worse is that i didnt just "end up" there, i requested it. :dancing:

But whatever, I just got to do all the cool stuff and almost none of the BS. I cant complain.

I really have no issue with officers, I was just busting on DRB before he edited his post. There are some good guys out there who dont take themselves too seriously.

I wonder if psychologists will attack you for being mean to me.... wait wrong thread.

DRB

11-16-2004, 07:34 PM

And Burly, I'd rather be an 0302 than a pouge e-dog anyday...but I digress.

Isn't that a VD officer? Or is it a remedial reading teacher? I know the Marines need lots of both.

CHOP

11-16-2004, 07:50 PM

No I asked two questions based on what someone else had posted.

The first one being was what understanding he mentioned being an Army Ranger (something I have a little experience with) gave Chop.

What I meant by stating that I could understand, meant that I could easily see how this could happen. Urban warfare is the nasiest and most brutal type of battle. This Marine probably had his a** in a sling for quite some time just prior to entering this room. Meaning he was probably being fired upon among other things. He has so much energy, and emotion, and adrenalin pumping through his body at this point that anyone who isn't a fellow soldier of his, is basically a enemy. Everyone is an enemy until stated otherwise, especially one that uses enemies tatics (faking death) as this guy supposedly was doing. I could go on and on. In no way am I trying to justify or condone what this Marine did, but simply said that I could understand why he did what he did. Hope this clears things up.

DRB

11-16-2004, 09:09 PM

What I meant by stating that I could understand, meant that I could easily see how this could happen. Urban warfare is the nasiest and most brutal type of battle. This Marine probably had his a** in a sling for quite some time just prior to entering this room. Meaning he was probably being fired upon among other things. He has so much energy, and emotion, and adrenalin pumping through his body at this point that anyone who isn't a fellow soldier of his, is basically a enemy. Everyone is an enemy until stated otherwise, especially one that uses enemies tatics (faking death) as this guy supposedly was doing. I could go on and on. In no way am I trying to justify or condone what this Marine did, but simply said that I could understand why he did what he did. Hope this clears things up.

Yep....

What class were you? Or were you in the Regiment? OR BOTH?

ummbikes

11-16-2004, 10:02 PM

I am placing my uninformed, wildly speculative, and mostly worthless opinion that the Marine was justified in the kill.

This is a public relations challenge never the less.

Having never served in the armed forces I have no real proof, but my best friend was enlisted, then a reservist/college puke, and now a Lt. in the Air Force. He is of the opinion that being an officer is greatly preferable to being enlisted.

Skookum

11-16-2004, 11:04 PM

i don't agree with this war now. So is it strange that i have no sympathy for the iraqi insurgent in this case? Since this is war. in a sense i view it as everyone is going thru the motions of what war is all about.
i'm glad the video made it out, i think it's good for the people to be shown the cost and the toll of war.

DRB

11-22-2004, 01:39 PM

ohio

11-22-2004, 02:51 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6556034/

It's time you have the facts from me, in my own words, about what I saw -- without imposing on that Marine -- guilt or innocence or anything in between. I want you to read my account and make up your own minds about whether you think what I did was right or wrong. All the other armchair analysts don't mean a damn to me.

Kevin Sites commentary on what he saw and what has happened since.

Incredibly well-written. It's good to finally see the facts laid out by the eye-witness himself, with explicit statements of his personal biases or lack thereof. I cannot argue with his course of action, nor his logic and reasoning. Until we hear more from him or from another source, I feel he did exactly as he should have.

Echo

11-22-2004, 03:21 PM

Good read. Of course, taking it at face value requires the reader to accept that the writer is being totally honest and has a perfect recollection of what transpired. That may well be the case, but it's still one person's account of what happened, just described in more detail.

valve bouncer

11-22-2004, 04:13 PM