Behavior Profiling is Bad.

[DRB]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/11/12/bt.airport.profiling.ap/index.html

Security at Logan International Airport, praised for its overhaul after Sept. 11, 2001, has come under fire for a technique that allows police to stop and question people they believe are behaving suspiciously.

The American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit Wednesday challenging the "behavior pattern recognition" program at Logan -- where two planes were hijacked and crashed into the World Trade Center -- saying it "effectively condones and encourages" racial and ethnic profiling.

The lawsuit was filed on behalf of King Downing, the ACLU's national coordinator for racial profiling, who alleged he was harassed by state police last year.

State police insist they focus on travelers' behavior, including loitering without luggage, wearing heavy clothes on a hot day and watching security methods at the airport.

George N. Naccara, the federal security director at Logan under the Transportation Security Administration, said troopers are trained not to stop people based on race or ethnicity.

Downing said he was asked for identification while he was making a phone call in October 2003 at Logan.

He refused because he did not know the basis for the request, he said -- and was told to leave. As he tried to depart, he was told he was under arrest for failing to produce identification.

Downing said he subsequently produced a driver's license and travel documents and was allowed to go; no charges were filed.

[Slugman]

Show a F'ing ID A-hole... does it really take that much effort or traumatize you that much?!?!?!

I'm all for personal freedom and liberties – but you are not at home or walking through a park – you’re at an airport and they are there to keep you from getting killed!

I am so sick of the F'ing ACLU and their stupid lawsuits.

[BurlyShirley]

ACLU idiots. At it again.

[N8]

Interesting ACLU development in Las Vegas NV... the ACLU is backing those obnoxious street preachers... :p

[binary visions]

"Racial profiling"

Christ, next thing you know they're going to be fighting because "terrorists have rights too, and your techniques tend to profile them".

We're taking stabs in the dark here trying to catch terrorists before they actually get on a flight, at least we should be stabbing at the most likely subjects, and frankly, the most likely subjects are not WASPs.

The ACLU does some good stuff but they definitly get carried away a lot...

[I Are Baboon]

Umm, you take the chance of being randomly questioned and searched when you decide to go to an airport. Welcome to the 21st century. :rolleyes:

[valve bouncer]

Wow a group of people that goes around defending your rights. The nerve of some people.

[Echo]

Wow a group of people that goes around defending your rights. The nerve of some people.
They don't give a crap about anyone's rights. They just want to be the loudest whiner so more people will donate money to them.

[binary visions]

Wow a group of people that goes around defending your rights. The nerve of some people.
:stosh:

This has nothing to do with a group of people defending other's rights, and has everything to do with a bunch of knee-jerk reactionaries who are so hyper sensitive that they can't seperate what is logical and reasonable from what is actually a violation of human rights.

[valve bouncer]

:stosh:

This has nothing to do with a group of people defending other's rights, and has everything to do with a bunch of knee-jerk reactionaries who are so hyper sensitive that they can't seperate what is logical and reasonable from what is actually a violation of human rights.
Well if you wanna get bent over the x-ray machine by a big gorilla with a rubber glove and a glint in his eye, be my guest :thumb: I've been to airports in Australia, Asia and Europe since 9/11 and never felt my personal well-being was being compromised despite airport security being both low key and friendly.

[Slugman]

Wow a group of people that goes around defending your rights. The nerve of some people.

When you choose to fly you agree to obey the guidelines established by the airline, airport, TSA, and the FAA. You have the right to not fly if you disagree with their guidelines.

Should I be allowed to sue because they refuse to allow me to bring my loaded gun on the flight... they are oppressing my 2nd amendment!!!!

[dan-o]

Being asked for an ID is a far cry from being rubber gloved. I fly around 100k miles a year within the US,Asia and EU and while not as professional as other countries, the US security is no more invasive.

[DRB]

Well if you wanna get bent over the x-ray machine by a big gorilla with a rubber glove and a glint in his eye, be my guest :thumb: I've been to airports in Australia, Asia and Europe since 9/11 and never felt my personal well-being was being compromised despite airport security being both low key and friendly.

Wow, I missed that part of the article.... would you please point it out to me. My reading comprehension must be way down to miss a big gorilla with a rubber glove.

[valve bouncer]

When you choose to fly you agree to obey the guidelines established by the airline, airport, TSA, and the FAA. You have the right to not fly if you disagree with their guidelines.

Should I be allowed to sue because they refuse to allow me to bring my loaded gun on the flight... they are oppressing my 2nd amendment!!!!
Has it been established that these goons were following guidelines or were they just routinely hassling people who they thought looked suspicious? Wow, maybe that's the policy? I shouldn't really say that though because I might be jumping to conclusions without really knowing all the facts of the case. ;)

[valve bouncer]

Wow, I missed that part of the article.... would you please point it out to me. My reading comprehension must be way down to miss a big gorilla with a rubber glove.
I knew that bit would spark your interest.

[valve bouncer]

Being asked for an ID is a far cry from being rubber gloved. I fly around 100k miles a year within the US,Asia and EU and while not as professional as other countries, the US security is no more invasive.
Certainly seemed invasive in this case but I accept what you are saying. BTW, how do you mean more professional?

[Slugman]

Has it been established that these goons were following guidelines or were they just routinely hassling people who they thought looked suspicious?
See, even you think the plantiff looked suspicious... :D

I think that IS the guidline - check suspicious looking people. http://www.cripplefight.com/smileys/slap.gif

[Silver]

Certainly seemed invasive in this case but I accept what you are saying. BTW, how do you mean more professional?

They don't look like they've been lifted from the nearest 7/11. No mustard stains.

[dan-o]

The guy who was harrassed, the ACLU's racial profiling coordinator, was probably there to bait security in the first place. Again, he was only asked for his ID which is totally reasonable in a secured area.

Compared to the city of London where every square inch is monitored by video cameras, Logan is a free for all when it comes to civil liberties.

[dan-o]

Certainly seemed invasive in this case but I accept what you are saying. BTW, how do you mean more professional?

By more professional I mean the process is seamless in comparision and that the staff used in other countries are more professional. In the US we use low-wage staff for the majority of these positions while in europe (according to a friend who worked in security at the Brussels airport) the jobs are career-track.

While other countries staff are trained in psychological profiling based on pre-ticketing/boarding interviews, the US guys are busy telling you to take off your belt and flip-flops before walking through the metal detector.

[Echo]

The guy who was harrassed, the ACLU's racial profiling coordinator, was probably there to bait security in the first place.
EXACTLY.

And of course in the ACLU's opinion, this is a perfectly legitimate practice.

But of course they call it "entrapment" when the cops do it.

[BurlyShirley]

But of course they call it "entrapment" when the cops do it.
Unless its with fake hookers, drug dealers, explosive salesmen, or hit men. Then its not entrapment for some reason :confused: I dont quite get that, though Im not against it either.

[I Are Baboon]

I am willing to allow valve bouncer's comfort level to be compromised if it means a safer flight for me. :)

[narlus]

logan sucks. it's such a crappy airport. an embarrassment.

[binary visions]

Unless its with fake hookers, drug dealers, explosive salesmen, or hit men. Then its not entrapment for some reason :confused: I dont quite get that, though Im not against it either.
Actually, there's a pretty rigid definition of entrapment and it has nothing to do with posing as something you're not.

Entrapment is defined as acting in a way that will cause someone to actually act outside of their natural impulses due to your behaviour. For example, posing as a hooker on a street corner and having someone stop to pick you up is not entrapment. Sticking your head in someone's car and encouraging them to pick you up would be, because the person may have not otherwise picked up a hooker without the encouragement (yeah, right, but that's what they claim in court :D ).

Echo's point was the guy might very well have gone in and intentionally acted suspicious simply to get himself nailed, even though normally the guards might have let him past without an issue.

[valve bouncer]

Echo's point was the guy might very well have gone in and intentionally acted suspicious simply to get himself nailed, even though normally the guards might have let him past without an issue.
And he might also have just been there minding his own business when he was targetted for being black in a built up area.

[Echo]

And he might also have just been there minding his own business when he was targetted for being black in a built up area.
Dude I know you're not stupid. So think for a minute. What's this dude's job? The ACLU's national coordinator for racial profiling. Read that back again.

There are what, 90 million people in the USA? And I guarantee you he's the only one who could give the cops a ration of crap for asking for his ID in the airport, not get arrested, and make national headlines claiming his civil liberties were violated.

Anyone else of any race pulls that crap, they go to jail. He got off easy, and he's acting like he got ass raped.

[Silver]

There are what, 90 million people in the USA?

Almost 300 million.

I think the point is that white people don't often get pulled aside and asked for ID in airports when they look "anxious." I sure don't...and I need tranquilizers to get on a plane.

The fact that he was on his way to a meeting on racial profiling is just priceless :D

[Skookum]

Anyone else of any race pulls that crap, they go to jail. He got off easy, and he's acting like he got ass raped.
Good thing we have organizations like the ACLU to make a stand for the rest of us then, who cannot stand up for our rights since we're too afraid to nowadays. Not like our governments doing a bang up job fighting the war on terror in the correct way, or it's not like our borders aren't wide open in the south. i'd like to know what exactly makes you feel safer that some minimum wage dilhole is hasslin a brother on the phone in Logan airport.

[Echo]

Good thing we have organizations like the ACLU to make a stand for the rest of us then, who cannot stand up for our rights since we're too afraid to nowadays. Not like our governments doing a bang up job fighting the war on terror in the correct way, or it's not like our borders aren't wide open in the south. i'd like to know what exactly makes you feel safer that some minimum wage dilhole is hasslin a brother on the phone in Logan airport.
I didn't say anything about the government, or the war on terror. I didn't say anything about any borders. I didn't say anything about feeling safer.

All I said was, the dude got asked for his ID by airport security. While in the airport. If he had produced his ID, there would have been no problem. What the hell is the big deal about being asked for ID, especially in an airport? Any sane intelligent person is going to politely show their ID and be on their merry way.

But then you get this moron who, as soon as airport security asks him for ID, starts yelling "This is a OUTRAGE!! Look here everyone, these white boys is racial profilin' my ass. Y'all saw it right?! Go git CNN! Call the president! This is a OUTRAGE!!"

[Toshi]

What the hell is the big deal about being asked for ID, especially in an airport? Any sane intelligent person is going to politely show their ID and be on their merry way.
"your papers, please". ring any bells?

also, even where there are laws in place you are compelled only to provide your name to police (let alone security), NOT your id. http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0622/p01s01-usju.html

In upholding his conviction and the mandatory identity-disclosure [Nevada] law, the majority justices also said the law only requires that a suspect disclose his or her name, rather than requiring production of a driver's license or other document.

[Silver]

But then you get this moron who, as soon as airport security asks him for ID, starts yelling "This is a OUTRAGE!! Look here everyone, these white boys is racial profilin' my ass. Y'all saw it right?! Go git CNN! Call the president! This is a OUTRAGE!!"

I hardly think that a person who works for the ACLU would speak with Boss Hog inflections, but I guess it's possible.

It's a little more understandable when you consider how many white Amadou Diallo's there have been...I'm willing to cut the guy some slack.

[Echo]

What is the big freaking deal if a cop wants to see your ID in the airport? I can't believe you people have nothing better to whine about.

[I Are Baboon]

What is the big freaking deal if a cop wants to see your ID in the airport? I can't believe you people have nothing better to whine about.


Because it's a violation of.....some kind of amendment, man! :p

Apparently, people would rather be left alone than to be safe.

[valve bouncer]

What is the big freaking deal if a cop wants to see your ID in the airport? I can't believe you people have nothing better to whine about.
Some people don't like being hassled for doing nothing wrong. I don't like it and if you can show me how this will improve security at airports I'll be all ears. Seems to me that the only thing this policy can hope to achieve is to piss people off. If that's the ultimate aim then it seems to be succeeding admirably.

[Echo]

So you think it's your right to act suspiciously without being suspected?

Does anyone with a brain REALLY think this poor, downtrodden black man was innocently going about his business at the airport, when all the sudden, out of the blue, these 2 right wing extremist cops decided to single him out of all the other black people in the airport, for no reason other than the color of his skin? Isn't Boston supposed to be one of your beloved "blue" areas?

Or in a more likely scenario, he, along with the sheep here who hang on his every word, was doing his normal routine of trying to create a situation where he can whine incessantly about how his rights are constantly violated by "the white man".

[valve bouncer]

So you think it's your right to act suspiciously without being suspected?

Does anyone with a brain REALLY think this poor, downtrodden black man was innocently going about his business at the airport, when all the sudden, out of the blue, these 2 right wing extremist cops decided to single him out of all the other black people in the airport, for no reason other than the color of his skin? Isn't Boston supposed to be one of your beloved "blue" areas?

Or in a more likely scenario, he, along with the sheep here who hang on his every word, was doing his normal routine of trying to create a situation where he can whine incessantly about how his rights are constantly violated by "the white man".
Who said he was acting suspiciously? If you think cops all over the world don't, ocassionally, not all the time but ocassionally single out minorities for harrassment then I think you are living in a dream world. I've experienced it myself here in Japan, seen it elsewhere. Unlesss you have some specific info regarding this case that I'm not aware of then it sounds to ME like this guy was being hassled. It sounds to YOU like he was being a wanker. We both could be right. Could even be this guy and the cop were both wankers. My problem is that you seem to regard it as OK that a cop asks you for ID regardless of what you are doing. It's totally arbitrary, anything you do can be deemed to be suspicious in the current environment. As such the system is open to abuse at the hands of capricious law enforcement officials. I don't like that.

[Echo]

Dude if it was anyone else, I would be happy to give him the benefit of the doubt. But it's this dude's JOB, his GOAL IN LIFE, to whine about people violating his civil liberties. Sorry but I don't buy his story.

[valve bouncer]

Dude if it was anyone else, I would be happy to give him the benefit of the doubt. But it's this dude's JOB, his GOAL IN LIFE, to whine about people violating his civil liberties. Sorry but I don't buy his story.
I'm sorry but I don't buy the accepted wisdom that the ACLU* people are professional pooh disturbers. I feel that is taking too shallow a view of what they are about. I mean any group that manages to piss off as many different people as the ACLU* have can't be all bad. ;)

* We have the ACLU in Australia too, obviously the "A" is different so I admit my views of the "CLU" people come mostly from that but from all I've seen and read they're very similar.

[ALEXIS_DH]

i agree with the fact that racial profiling has to be more efficient than a truly random profiling.

the only problem i have with it, is that goddammit!!! every time i went thru an airport
in the US after sept 11 i got stopped, asked, and checked for metals. and its quite obvious. thats hardly random. its gets annoying.

do i look that much of a terrorist???
i kinda look a mix of hispanic-asian more than anything else. weird. and its not cuz my passport is peruvian, they had always stopped me at the first gate, before seeing my passport or anything, even in flights not going to lima.

and very un-scientifically, a few friend of mine from SA living in the US had similar things going on. its quite annoying for us non-wasps who dont carry bombs.....

[Echo]

in the US after sept 11 i got stopped, asked, and checked for metals. and its quite obvious. thats hardly random. its gets annoying.
Dude seriously. I travel quite a bit. I'm about as white as they come. And I've been stopped, searched, had my luggage searched, been asked for ID, all that crap EVERY time I've flown somewhere after 9/11. When I took my bike to Bootleg, they had it out of the box and were rubbing it down for gunpowder traces. When I flew to Whistler, they had me in Immigration playing 20 questions about why I was there. Did I bitch that my civil liberties were violated? Hell no. It's part of flying these days. I guarantee you the crap I've been through, without ever complaining, is 100 times worse than what happened to this ACLU whiner.

[Skookum]

Dude I know you're not stupid. So think for a minute. What's this dude's job? The ACLU's national coordinator for racial profiling. Read that back again.


exactly read it back again. Your statement of it being entrapment is based on conjecture. Most of your opinions on the matter derive from it. To me it's not so much that racial profiling is wrong, to me it's more important to say it's flawed. Certainly if that's the best we're doing in security, hiring minimum wage scrubs to go hassle minorities, i personally don't feel safer from it.

I didn't say anything about the government, or the war on terror. I didn't say anything about any borders. I didn't say anything about feeling safer.

So you wish to make a point by being seperated from the topic somehow, i don't get it....


All I said was, the dude got asked for his ID by airport security. While in the airport. If he had produced his ID, there would have been no problem. What the hell is the big deal about being asked for ID, especially in an airport? Any sane intelligent person is going to politely show their ID and be on their merry way.


Yah when you get your ticket, when you go thru the gate/security checkpoint, and when you hop in line for your flight. Not when your sittin on the phone. You're obviously not an expert when it comes to racial profiling, this guy is, it would appear to me the courts will ultimately decide.



But then you get this moron who, as soon as airport security asks him for ID, starts yelling "This is a OUTRAGE!! Look here everyone, these white boys is racial profilin' my ass. Y'all saw it right?! Go git CNN! Call the president! This is a OUTRAGE!!"
Did he say that, was the security guy white? i didn't read that... Did this really make a huge splash on the news? i didn't see it on the front page of any of our local papers....

What is the big freaking deal if a cop wants to see your ID in the airport? I can't believe you people have nothing better to whine about.
hmm.... maybe because on the slippery slope of civil liberties we at least want to get kissed before we get ****ed. i just don't think many Americans are as trusting regardless of party, for a myriad of reasons. In fact i believe it to be quite American to not trust your government but challenge them.

Dude seriously. I travel quite a bit. I'm about as white as they come. And I've been stopped, searched, had my luggage searched, been asked for ID, all that crap EVERY time I've flown somewhere after 9/11. When I took my bike to Bootleg, they had it out of the box and were rubbing it down for gunpowder traces. When I flew to Whistler, they had me in Immigration playing 20 questions about why I was there. Did I bitch that my civil liberties were violated? Hell no. It's part of flying these days. I guarantee you the crap I've been through, without ever complaining, is 100 times worse than what happened to this ACLU whiner.
You bring up some valid points in this post, i'm curious though were all of your searches done in "typical" checkpoints? i mean were you reading a magazine in the can when they drug you out for an id check? i've never been randomly checked or seen anyone randomly checked personally myself. i've always been checked or searched in places i stated above.

And totally separate from this debate, who's really whining here.

:sneaky: