Fahrenheit 9/11

[fluff]

Okay, I watched this over the weekend and I'd like to elicit the opinions of those who want to refute the Mike Moore version of events. Not all events because clearly a lot of it was opinion and spin, just these bits:

The election, seems dodgy...?

What was Bush doing for those minutes when he had been told about the attacks but sat there reading with a class of little kids?

Did John Ashcroft really lose to a dead man?

[narlus]

yes, ashcroft did lose to a dead man. you ever listen to david cross? on his "shut up you f'ing baby" there's a very funny bit on that.

haven't seen moore's latest yet. hell, i haven't see any of his movies. and while baseball is still going on, i don't think i'll be seeing any movies.

[BurlyShirley]

Okay, I watched this over the weekend and I'd like to elicit the opinions of those who want to refute the Mike Moore version of events. Not all events because clearly a lot of it was opinion and spin, just these bits:

The election, seems dodgy...?

What was Bush doing for those minutes when he had been told about the attacks but sat there reading with a class of little kids?

Did John Ashcroft really lose to a dead man?

Election seems dodgy? No. This have been proven untrue time and time again, no matter how many times they recount.

In front of the kids? Well, i would think its obvious, he was trying not to upset a room full of little kids. In hindsight, sure we can say what he should or shouldnt have done instead but what is really the point of this argument?

[fluff]

Election seems dodgy? No. This have been proven untrue time and time again, no matter how many times they recount.

In front of the kids? Well, i would think its obvious, he was trying not to upset a room full of little kids. In hindsight, sure we can say what he should or shouldnt have done instead but what is really the point of this argument?

All the evidence I have seen indicates that Florida would have gone to Gore, where is the evidence that proves otherwise? Don't give me your opinion on this, give me facts.

As for not upsetting little kids, that is the most ridiculous excuse imaginable. Is Bush unable to say 'Excuse me I just need to take a phone call' and get out of the classroom? Did he hope that if he did nothing that the kids would never learn about the events that day? People talk of Bush as a great leader, no great leader would have sat by listening to primary school kids reading whilst such events were happening.

You're an apologist BS, admit it.

[BurlyShirley]

All the evidence I have seen indicates that Florida would have gone to Gore, where is the evidence that proves otherwise? Don't give me your opinion on this, give me facts.

As for not upsetting little kids, that is the most ridiculous excuse imaginable. Is Bush unable to say 'Excuse me I just need to take a phone call' and get out of the classroom? Did he hope that if he did nothing that the kids would never learn about the events that day? People talk of Bush as a great leader, no great leader would have sat by listening to primary school kids reading whilst such events were happening.

You're an apologist BS, admit it.

I dont know what evidence you've been looking at.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html

Also, on the classroom thing, I dont get what he actually did wrong. If he had left the room at that very moment, nothing would have changed. What is the point of picking at this?

[BurlyShirley]

..and here's a county by county breakdown. If you feel the need to believe Moore's crap, go right ahead, but it still wont change the facts.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/vote2000/cbc/flcbc.htm

[fluff]

Also, on the classroom thing, I dont get what he actually did wrong. If he had left the room at that very moment, nothing would have changed. What is the point of picking at this?

Let's separate the issues for ease of discussion, I'll come back to the elections.

The reason for picking at Bush's actions at the moment he found out about the attacks are:

1. He was the POTUS and Commader in Chief - the leader of the Nation, the man with ultimate authority.
2. Neither he nor anyone else knew at that time whether any actions he made or decisions he took would have changed anything, but at the very least he should have tried to do something.
3. He is up for re-election and is trying to convince the electorate that he is a great leader.
4. At the moment of attack, when great leadership was called for he was not there, he did not measure up.

Do you really think that what he did was what a great leader should do? Would you as an ex-marine really want to follow a man like that into battle?

[BurlyShirley]

Let's separate the issues for ease of discussion, I'll come back to the elections.

The reason for picking at Bush's actions at the moment he found out about the attacks are:

1. He was the POTUS and Commader in Chief - the leader of the Nation, the man with ultimate authority.
2. Neither he nor anyone else knew at that time whether any actions he made or decisions he took would have changed anything, but at the very least he should have tried to do something.
3. He is up for re-election and is trying to convince the electorate that he is a great leader.
4. At the moment of attack, when great leadership was called for he was not there, he did not measure up.

Do you really think that what he did was what a great leader should do? Would you as an ex-marine really want to follow a man like that into battle?

Fluff, Im sorry, but I think you're just getting less smart or more anti-bush by the post lately, either of which are clouding your better judgement. You're making a mountain out of a molehill here and thats it. Everyone has said that Bush showed great leadership after that happened. NOTHING he did could have changed the outcome, so what is the point? I know how the military works, you cannot get some F-18s in the air to intercept an airline above a major metro area in 5 minutes or whatever the amount of time was between when bush first heard of the attack and when the 2nd building was hit. You're being pretty mindless about this, dont you think?

[BurlyShirley]

**** it. I gave you the facts on the election. You can clearly see you have no basis for your classroom argument. You are a moore apologist now to whom the facts dont matter. this argument is pointless. I have to go to class.

[bomberz1qr20]

yes, ashcroft did lose to a dead man. you ever listen to david cross? on his "shut up you f'ing baby" there's a very funny bit on that.

haven't seen moore's latest yet. hell, i haven't see any of his movies. and while baseball is still going on, i don't think i'll be seeing any movies.

At least see 'Roger & Me". It's hilarious.

Unless you're in Flint Michigan, where I was when I first saw it. Ugh.

[fluff]

Fluff, Im sorry, but I think you're just getting less smart or more anti-bush by the post lately, either of which are clouding your better judgement. You're making a mountain out of a molehill here and thats it. Everyone has said that Bush showed great leadership after that happened. NOTHING he did could have changed the outcome, so what is the point? I know how the military works, you cannot get some F-18s in the air to intercept an airline above a major metro area in 5 minutes or whatever the amount of time was between when bush first heard of the attack and when the 2nd building was hit. You're being pretty mindless about this, dont you think?

The point is that Bush had no idea how many airliners were hijacked or whether other attacks were happening. He should have acted.

You are making a defence based on the premise that as it would not have mattered what he did, he was right to do nothing. That is complete nonsense. You accuse me of being mindless yet come up with logic like that?

[fluff]

**** it. I gave you the facts on the election. You can clearly see you have no basis for your classroom argument. You are a moore apologist now to whom the facts dont matter. this argument is pointless. I have to go to class.

Have you seen the movie? Do you know what you are talking about here? It is not just about uncounted ballots, or even confusing ballots, or yet further about faulty electronic polling booths (the latter two both swinging Florida to Gore), it is about deliberate disenfranchisement.

Here's a link for you to get up to speed:

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=29&row=2

[BurlyShirley]

The point is that Bush had no idea how many airliners were hijacked or whether other attacks were happening. He should have acted.

You are making a defence based on the premise that as it would not have mattered what he did, he was right to do nothing. That is complete nonsense. You accuse me of being mindless yet come up with logic like that?

Mountain out of a molehill...

Acted to do what? And what would it have prevented? And do you think nothing happens in this country without presidential approval? This michael moore type reasoning is exactly why no one takes him seriously and why Im starting to take you less seriously as a poster here. Not that you should care about that kind of thing, but think about what you're saying. "He's a bad comander in chief because he alone didnt attempt to stop nothing from happening, even though he alone doesnt and couldnt control it" Yep, that about sums up your argument.

[Hawkeye]

Funny he uses 2 legitimate news sources and you come back with gregpalast.com. Who?

I'm sure if Bush left the room at that moment he could have scrambled f-18s to shoot down every airliner in US airspace. Yeah right. At that moment and the 10 minutes after, hell the 30 minutes after NOBODY knew the scoop of these attacks. The electronic infrastructure of NYC was down, cell phones as far away as Chicago were not working or at least hard to get a line out. News websites didn't work. And the Military didn't get any info to Bush until Airforce one was at 35,000 feet.

It's easy to play arm chair quarter back. What was Moore doing besides sitting there with his jaw on the floor?

I didn't see him on the phones with me talking to the parents and wives of people looking for the family members that died that day? I didn't see him doing anything that I remember, oops sorry maybe just starting the cameras rolling to make one of his propaganda films that he intended to tear this country apart via close election.

[douglas]

umm, nothing would have changed?
maybe with a leader that was prepared (instead of ignoring the CIA's info on a terrorist threat) and sprang into action the people that died at the pentagon may have lived, or don't they matter?

I wonder how long it was after those 7 minutes (that we know he did nothing) before he did anything?

[MikeD]

My personal feelings on the issue aside, it's amazing what nit-picky crap people suddenly consider important because it was presented to them that way.

Moore is trying to demonize the man, and he could do it just as easily if Bush had taken some sort of immediate action. "His petulance and thirst for vengance were apparent from the outset..." "Like the rest of the war, Bush was overhasty and opportunistic"

Let's face it...it's just NOT important. Bush couldn't do anything, anyhow. He's the commander in chief. He makes strategic decisions and guides operational policy; he isn't even consulted when tactical-level decisions are made. The wheels were in motion, to the extent that they moved that day, long before Bush got the call.

MD

[zod]

It's easy to play arm chair quarter back. What was Moore doing besides sitting there with his jaw on the floor?


He was probably drooling, thinking about all the $$$$ he could make.......

[Hawkeye]

He was probably drooling, thinking about all the $$$$ he could make.......


Another good point.

[zod]

What was Bush doing for those minutes when he had been told about the attacks but sat there reading with a class of little kids?


From: http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm


Fahrenheit mocks President Bush for continuing to read the book My Pet Goat to a classroom of elementary school children after he was told about the September 11 attacks. Actually, as reported in The New Yorker, the book was Reading Mastery 2, which contains an exercise called "The Pet Goat." The title of the book is not very important in itself, but the invented title of My Pet Goat makes it easier to ridicule Bush.



What Moore did not tell you:

Gwendolyn Tose’-Rigell, the principal of Emma E. Booker Elementary School, praised Bush’s action: "I don’t think anyone could have handled it better." "What would it have served if he had jumped out of his chair and ran out of the room?"…



She said the video doesn’t convey all that was going on in the classroom, but Bush’s presence had a calming effect and "helped us get through a very difficult day."

"Sarasota principal defends Bush from ‘Fahrenheit 9/11’ portrayal," Associated Press, June 24, 2004. Also, since the President knew he was on camera, it was reasonable to expect that if he had suddenly sped out of the room, his hasty movement would have been replayed incessantly on television; leaving the room quickly might have exacerbated the national mood of panic, even if Bush had excused himself calmly.



Moore does not offer any suggestion about what the President should have done during those seven minutes, rather than staying calm for the sake of the classroom and of the public. Nor does Moore point to any way that the September 11 events might have turned out better in even the slightest way if the President had acted differently. I agree with Lee Hamilton, the Vice-Chair of the September11 Commission and a former Democratic Representative from Indiana: "Bush made the right decision in remaining calm, in not rushing out of the classroom."



Moreover, as detailed by the Washington Times, Ari Fleischer was in the back of the classroom, holding up a legal pad with the words, "DON'T SAY ANYTHING YET." The Secret Service may well have been cautious about moving Bush, not only because of hijackings, but also because on the morning of September 11, a Middle Eastern man had tried to gain personal access to the President by falsely claiming that he was a journalist with a scheduled interview, and by asking for a Secret Service agent by name

[BurlyShirley]

umm, nothing would have changed?
maybe with a leader that was prepared (instead of ignoring the CIA's info on a terrorist threat) and sprang into action the people that died at the pentagon may have lived, or don't they matter?

I wonder how long it was after those 7 minutes (that we know he did nothing) before he did anything?
That's right. NOTHING would have changed. See mine and hawkeyes above posts.

[Lexx D]

You're all 100% correct. He couldn't have done anything at that time. For me it's not about what could have been done, it's about his actions after he was told. I for one would want to get as much information as possible. He was told about the first plane before he went into the classroom. Then he was told about the second while in the classroom. I would personally want to know what the fuk is going on and are there anymore planes coming. Ten minutes may not have changed the course of events but either way it's ten minutes of sitting aroundwith your thumb up your a$$.
To me Moore raised some valid questions about W's past and his present way of doing things. It may not all be fact but it makes me a little curious. Even if 10% of the movie is true that's enough for me to want him gone.

[Hawkeye]

Lexx D:

Is your memory a little fuzzy? The first plane was a terrible accident, the second was terrorists. At least thats' how 99% of Americans viewed it.

[Lexx D]

Lexx D:

Is your memory a little fuzzy? The first plane was a terrible accident, the second was terrorists. At least thats' how 99% of Americans viewed it.
Good for you to speak for 99% of Americans. :thumb:

[Hawkeye]

I'm not trying to speak for 99% of Americans. But realistically who thought that this was a terrorist act?

[douglas]

From: http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm




yea, lets not alarm these few kids by leaving the room early or saying anything to them, screw everyone in Manhatten and everyone watchig what is going on live (tv, internet, etc).....maybe he should have stayed in the classroom all day

[MikeD]

"Bush began his campaign of fear immediately, starting with a classroom full of second-graders."

This is the stupidest detail in the world to be arguing about. You're all falling into Moore's trap!

Argue about IMPORTANT things...there are plenty of them!

MD

[BurlyShirley]

yea, lets not alarm these few kids by leaving the room early or saying anything to them, screw everyone in Manhatten and everyone watchig what is going on live (tv, internet, etc).....maybe he should have stayed in the classroom all day
First off, this doesnt matter, but what would it have done for the people in manhattan if he'd left the classroom?

[zod]

yes dougy, do tell??

[Silver]

"Bush began his campaign of fear immediately, starting with a classroom full of second-graders."

This is the stupidest detail in the world to be arguing about. You're all falling into Moore's trap!

Argue about IMPORTANT things...there are plenty of them!

MD

Yes, like whether or not Kerry is a flip flopper, or possibly a gay homosexual created by the liberal media using stem cells taken from Bill O'Reilly's accuser.

[MikeD]

Silver, on target like always...

MD

[Skookum]

That part of the movie was very redundant and non important. But Bush is a punk-bitch, i bet that after Martha Stewart gets outta the joint, she could feed him his teeth.

The vote thing while having some merit is old hat, and if accountability is to be doled out, i would say it's more important that Gore didn't continue to protest, but he folded and Bush won. Gore's fault he didn't persist, dead issue.

The most interesting points of the movie were him making his case for demonstrating how the Bush admin is in the Saudi's pocket.

i wonder if Tony Blair was taking a dump when the planes hit.

Wow Burger King chicken wars online soon! Woo hoo, the subserviant chicken thing gives you spyware though.....

[Silver]

The problem with that theory is that every President has been in the pocket of the House of Saud. Nothing's more American than a President supporting dictators abroad for fun and profit.

Is the seven minutes important? Not really, EXCEPT for the fact that Bush and his supporters want you to think that he is an intelligent, take charge, no libral bull**** kind of guy.

Can you imagine Bush Sr. sitting there for seven minutes? I can't, but then again, I also think that Bush Sr. is able to read at a higher level than those schoolchildren can...

[Changleen]

Nothing's more American than a President supporting dictators abroad for fun and profit.What about Hypocracy? Good ol' Hypocracy... I know it's hard to spell, (or say, or even understand if you're the President) but he's been a great friend to the American people over the years. He's a real American Hero.

[Silver]

What about Hypocracy? Good ol' Hypocracy... I know it's hard to spell, (or say, or even understand if you're the President) but he's been a great friend to the American people over the years. He's a real American Hero.

Well, Duh.

Genocide isn't genocide when Americans killed the Indians (it wasn't, because the word wasn't invented yet, so I guess technically that's true...)

btw...hypocrisy. :D

[Changleen]

Yeah, that was the subtle part of the joke but now you've blown it! :(

Anyway..http://www.ericblumrich.com/idiot.html

[Silver]

Yeah, that was the subtle part of the joke but now you've blown it! :(

Anyway..http://www.ericblumrich.com/idiot.html

Whoops! Sorry...I'm dense sometimes. pm me the joke, btw...:D

NOFX!

[Changleen]

yay NOFX.

[Damn True]

yawn.

[Damn True]

Silver, on some sort of hallucinogen like always...

MD


Silver, on some sort of squeaky soap box like always...

MD

Silver, on Burley Surlys mom like always...

MD

....and to all the ships at sea.....good night

[Silver]

....and to all the ships at sea.....good night

What is it with you guys and making up false quotes? At least N8 had the decency to make up a quote of me alone without dragging a third party into it.

You've got other questions to answer in other threads, you know.

[Changleen]

What is it with you guys and making up false quotes?Being a Republican 101 - If your opposition's position is uncomfortable for you, misrepresent their position. If it helps, misrepresent yours, as well. If misrepresentation fails, simply lie outright.

[lonewolfe]

This is tuff but the most obvious thing is that W was/is the Commander In Chief. I don't think you can compare the two.

And regarding the election results in Florida, if you don't think there was any monkey business then I've got some prime swamp land to sell you in Florida.

So, Burley, when are you going to enlist and go fight in Bush's war? Your a college boy, you can probably even make it into Officers Training. I'm sure Bush would really appreciate your help. Your obviously giving him your vote so why not your life as well. There really is nothing to be scared of since it was announced "Mission Accomplished" aboard that aircraft carrier. Go make us proud boy! Don't even think about touching that Iraqi crude oil though. That is the one thing that might get you shot!

[fluff]

Funny he uses 2 legitimate news sources and you come back with gregpalast.com. Who?
Greg Palast, highly respected investigative journalist who broke the story of the mass disenfranchisement of voters and was the source for many of the stories the 'legitimate news sources' ran. Good to see you've master the tactic of attacking the source when you can't attack the content. now deal with the content?


I'm sure if Bush left the room at that moment he could have scrambled f-18s to shoot down every airliner in US airspace. Yeah right. At that moment and the 10 minutes after, hell the 30 minutes after NOBODY knew the scoop of these attacks. The electronic infrastructure of NYC was down, cell phones as far away as Chicago were not working or at least hard to get a line out. News websites didn't work. And the Military didn't get any info to Bush until Airforce one was at 35,000 feet.

You know, had he scrambled planes to potentially shoot down every airliner that was significantly off course I would respect the fact that he had tried.

It's easy to play arm chair quarter back. What was Moore doing besides sitting there with his jaw on the floor?

I imagine Moore was busy not being President, you know - the guy who is supposed to be in charge.
[/QUOTE]
I didn't see him on the phones with me talking to the parents and wives of people looking for the family members that died that day? I didn't see him doing anything that I remember, oops sorry maybe just starting the cameras rolling to make one of his propaganda films that he intended to tear this country apart via close election.[/QUOTE]

I think Bush has divided this country very well, without much help from Moore, you confuse their respective influence.

[fluff]

"Bush began his campaign of fear immediately, starting with a classroom full of second-graders."

This is the stupidest detail in the world to be arguing about. You're all falling into Moore's trap!

Argue about IMPORTANT things...there are plenty of them!

MD

Why is arguing about Bush's suitability for the most powerful position in the world (after being Dick Cheney) unimportant? There is an election happening Mike.

If I were simply trying to demonise Bush I'd point out such things as that following Kenneth Lay's campaign donations Bush removed price capping on electricity and California's bills went up 800%, benefiting Enron & Kenneth Lay.

[BurlyShirley]

So, Burley, when are you going to enlist and go fight in Bush's war? Your a college boy, you can probably even make it into Officers Training. I'm sure Bush would really appreciate your help. Your obviously giving him your vote so why not your life as well. There really is nothing to be scared of since it was announced "Mission Accomplished" aboard that aircraft carrier. Go make us proud boy! Don't even think about touching that Iraqi crude oil though. That is the one thing that might get you shot!

Actually I just got done with an enlistment earlier this year, little fella. Good try though. :rolleyes:

[Damn True]

Good to see you've master the tactic of attacking the source when you can't attack the content. now deal with the content?





Pissed that you've been unseated?

Did you say that with a straight face?
I was sure laughing when I read it.

[fluff]

Pissed that you've been unseated?

Did you say that with a straight face?
I was sure laughing when I read it.

Do you have reason to doubt Greg Palasts credentials?

[MikeD]

Why is arguing about Bush's suitability for the most powerful position in the world (after being Dick Cheney) unimportant? There is an election happening Mike.


No sh1t...

And this isn't relevant to his suitability to be president. At ALL.

Again, we could be arguing about the gross strategic error that is Iraq, but instead, we're talking about him reading a book. The scene in 9/11 reminds me of the gun-in-the-bank scene in Bowling for Columbine. Funny, and seemingly dramatic, but not truly relevant to an intelligent discussion. (the point in Bowling is that he gets a free gun from a bank...which IS funny and ironic, but not 'dangerous' as he says. If you really wanted to rob the bank with your new gun, you'd have to break open a large rifle, produce ammunition, and begin to load it before anyone could react. Basically, suicide, especially in a bank full of/staffed by gun nuts who are probably strapped. Much easier to just walk in with a loaded gun and gain some surprise.)

MD

[MikeD]

....and to all the ships at sea.....good night

Hey, now, don't use me to make a jab at Silver.

MD

[N8]

...and where was Kerry on the morning of Sept 11th?


He is quoted as sitting in shock for two hours fixated on the tv watching the Twin Towers be destroyed.


Two hours..? Did MMooron have that in his propaganda film?

:p

[narlus]

i heard cheney was playing hide and seek in a bunker.

[BurlyShirley]

i heard cheney was playing hide and seek in a bunker.
Well when airplanes are raining down on political targets and you're the #2 guy, I should hope so. :rolleyes:

[lonewolfe]

Hey Burley!

You've put your money where your mouth is and are doing what you believe in. I respect you for that. I wish the best.

Remember what Patton said, "The idea is not to die for your country but to make some other poor son of a bitch die for his".

Now, go fight the good fight!

[BurlyShirley]

Hey Burley!

You've put your money where your mouth is and are doing what you believe in. I respect you for that. I wish the best.

Remember what Patton said, "The idea is not to die for your country but to make some other poor son of a bitch die for his".

Now, go fight the good fight!
Maybe you mistook what I meant. I already served four years. No more fighting for me.

[valve bouncer]

No more fighting for me.
Whaddya mean "more"? Like towel fights in the locker room? ;)

[BurlyShirley]

Whaddya mean "more"? Like towel fights in the locker room? ;)
I mean like fights with my editors, because they're idiots. They wouldnt want to give me a gun and put me in the desert anyway. Id hurt myself.

[narlus]

well if you are tired of fighting w/ yr editors, i heard there might be an opening on the o'reilly show. phone sex and vibrator knowledge a plus.

[BurlyShirley]

well if you are tired of fighting w/ yr editors, i heard there might be an opening on the o'reilly show. phone sex and vibrator knowledge a plus.

What a crock that story is too. A simple trip to the HRD would've cured it, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, why do that when you can sue for $60 million? **** I hate people who sue.

[ridecruz88]

....i personally dont like to waste my money on some guy who has a lotta theories on a lotta bull. he wasnt there...and its backdoor bull**** to try and fill in the blanks with whatever you want it to be and spill it out to america.