Cuba

[fluff]

Okay frothers and others, what's the big deal with Cuba? Why does the US governemnt hate Cuba and Castro so much?

[jdcamb]

Cuz he's a poopy head.

[BurlyShirley]

Well for one, ever hear of the Cuban Missile Crisis?

...and you know how bad we just hate communists and dictators altogether too.

[fluff]

Well for one, ever hear of the Cuban Missile Crisis?

When was that again? Oh yeah, shortly after the Bay of Pigs... Over 30 years ago.


...and you know how bad we just hate communists and dictators altogether too.

Oh sure, King Fayed knows, Pinochet knows. Gaddafi knows...

So why does the Great USA need to hate communists?

[BurlyShirley]

When was that again? Oh yeah, shortly after the Bay of Pigs... Over 30 years ago.

And what same person has been in charge for like 43 years? Ill give you a hint, he fell on his face the other day and I laughed.

[fluff]

And what same person has been in charge for like 43 years? Ill give you a hint, he fell on his face the other day and I laughed.

So, what you're saying is that you have no good reasons?

[BurlyShirley]

So, what you're saying is that you have no good reasons?
No. Im saying that Fidel Castro, the guy who tried getting Nukes in Cuba to aim at the US is still on the sh!tlist. If there had been some free election and the guy was replaced or something, we could perhaps make ammends, but make no mistake, he has as much disdain for the US as we have for him. We've been calling each other evil for years.

[fluff]

No. Im saying that Fidel Castro, the guy who tried getting Nukes in Cuba to aim at the US is still on the sh!tlist. If there had been some free election and the guy was replaced or something, we could perhaps make ammends, but make no mistake, he has as much disdain for the US as we have for him. We've been calling each other evil for years.

The US has done far more evil to Cuba than Cuba has done to the US. He has far more reason to be wary of the US than the US does of Cuba.

When Castro took power he toured the US seeking support, the hand of cooperation was spurned. If he did want nukes, do you not think that may have had something to do with the nukes pointed at him and the history of attempted overthrow/assassination?

This is a US generated and perpetuated scenario.

[Westy]

We hate Cuba because of the large number of Anti-Castro Cubans living in the swing state of Florida. If all the Castro haters moved to California or Texas they would be ignored and we might have a logical policy on Cuba.

If we hate commies so much why are we so kissy kissy with China?

[bigginsis]

yeah nukes and all that but after 30 years of sanctions, i think we've pretty much made the country impotent. in fact, bush imposed even harsher sanctions on cubans living in america. they are not allowed to go home more than once every two years and the amount of money they are allowed to send relatives has been slashed.

as for china, we are kissy kissy because it is quickly becoming a player on the international scene. the number of people, the military and the move towards modernization means that if we don't start making nice now we will be in a fix. in terms of political geography, china's the next big superpower just waiting to happen.

[ALEXIS_DH]

c´mon cubans live on 10 dollars a month (my folks went to varadero 2 weeks ago, and the hotel employees told them), doctors make 14 bucks a month, everybody gets a fixed amount of food because there is no more food to sell, and the entire island is full of teenagers "jineteras" renting their privates for a few bucks to smelly europeans and US pedophiles.
my mom forgot her toothbrush, and had to wash her mouth the entire week with a q-tip because she could not find one for sale.

the sanctions against the mofo castro, are not against him, no matter what you do, he will smuggle whatever he wants for his personal use.

is the people of cuba who live miserabily because of them. the missile crisis??? oh c´mon the US has already done far more damage to cuba than cuba has ever done or could do to the US.
what is the point now???

i´ve been thinking, and i guess it may be part of the "to have a common enemy unifies a nation". i guess that has a lot to do with the satanization of commies.

[Slugman]

is the people of cuba who live miserabily because of them. the missile crisis??? oh c´mon the US has already done far more damage to cuba than cuba has ever done or could do to the US.
what is the point now???

i´ve been thinking, and i guess it may be part of the "to have a common enemy unifies a nation". i guess that has a lot to do with the satanization of commies.

So why is it that just because the US has a embargo Cuba has gone to Shcit? Is there no where else on the planet where Castro could get stuff? Mexico was shipping stuff there until just a short time ago... so why the hardships?

Castro is using his people as pawns, he could get supplies or aid, but will not accept it. I'm sure he has plenty of medicine for his broken arm and knee...

[ALEXIS_DH]

So why is it that just because the US has a embargo Cuba has gone to Shcit? Is there no where else on the planet where Castro could get stuff? Mexico was shipping stuff there until just a short time ago... so why the hardships?

Castro is using his people as pawns, he could get supplies or aid, but will not accept it. I'm sure he has plenty of medicine for his broken arm and knee...


lol... how "just because the US embargoed cuba" cuba has gone down the sink???

the US has a crapload of power in other nations. a million more times than your mind can imagine any foreign power having influence in the US.

a US backed embargo, is not only against the country in the embargo (cuba in this case). it also punishes any other nations that will trade with this nation.

that means, nobody wants to trade with Cuba (but venezuela as far as i know), because the US will rip them in pieces in no time if they did so.
so its not only a unilateral US not selling stuff to Cuba (which would be perfectly OK IMO), but its a policy of punishment for anybody who trades with cuba for non-essential stuff like medicines, or the allowed amount of food (which is not close to enough).

i have first hand experience with embargoes, Peru was embargoed in the late 80s. and it sucks ass. its like the oil crisis in the US in the 70s. remembers the lanes for gas everywhere?? its the same in any coutnry embargoed by the US, but not onl for gas, but for everything you want to buy.

[Slugman]

that means, nobody wants to trade with Cuba (but venezuela as far as i know), because the US will rip them in pieces in no time if they did so.

so its not only a unilateral US not selling stuff to Cuba (which would be perfectly OK IMO), but its a policy of punishment for anybody who trades with cuba for non-essential stuff like medicines, or the allowed amount of food (which is not close to enough).

Mexico had been openely dealing with them until about a year or so ago...

France has a very open trade with them and has for years...

Canada provided assistance In 1976, Pierre Elliott Trudeau, then Prime Minister of Canada, made one of the first state visits to Cuba by a Western leader during the height of the American blockade and personally embraced the Cuban leader. Trudeau provided $4 million in Canadian aid, and arranged a loan for another $10 million. In his speech Trudeau declared, "Long live Prime Minister and Commander-in-Chief Fidel Castro. Long live Cuban-Canadian friendship."

Tourism is huge Cuba is the second most popular tourist destination in the Caribbean (behind the Dominican Republic), providing it with much needed foreign currency. Cubans also receive large amounts of currency (with an estimated value of $850 million annually) from Cuban-Americans who send money back to their relatives or friends. Cuba also receives most of its energy needs in oil from Venezuela partly in exchange for Cuban medical personnel, replacing the previous long supply lines from Eastern Europe over a decade after these subsidies were cut. I can fly to the bahama's and for $30 get a ID card that I can use to fly into Cuba... basically it is just so the US gov't doesn't see "cuba" on my passport.

It's Castro's choice that his people suffer...

[golgiaparatus]

No. Im saying that Fidel Castro, the guy who tried getting Nukes in Cuba to aim at the US is still on the sh!tlist. If there had been some free election and the guy was replaced or something, we could perhaps make ammends, but make no mistake, he has as much disdain for the US as we have for him. We've been calling each other evil for years.

It was the russian Gov that was trying to put nukes on their base in cuba.
I think it biols down to... the US hates cuba because Fidel is a loose cannon type of guy and he lives just a few knots from Florida.

[BurlyShirley]

It was the russian Gov that was trying to put nukes on their base in cuba.
I think it biols down to... the US hates cuba because Fidel is a loose cannon type of guy and he lives just a few knots from Florida.

Duh! I thought the cubans made the nukes themselves :rolleyes: Thanks for clearing that up.
EDIT: And i did say "cuban missile crisis" which would also explicitly imply that.

[Changleen]

I think it boils down to: Cuba won't bend over and take it up the ass from Uncle Sam like everyone else. The US doesn't like not getting it's way and has a bit of a tantrum.

[Slugman]

I think it boils down to: Cuba won't bend over and take it up the ass from Uncle Sam like everyone else. The US doesn't like not getting it's way and has a bit of a tantrum.

We wanted Castro gone, he wanted to take out our leaders... it's a rivalry that never ended.

Don't think it was one-sided. Castro actually had assisnation squads in the US. There are spots in the everglades (you can take a tour and they will show you these spots) that were used by "unknown" forces to train. The items they left behind implicated Cuba (russian weopons, literature/notes in spanish that used Cuban dialect, etc).

You just don't forgive someone for trying to assasinate your leaders because a couple decades have past.

We hate Cuba because of the large number of Anti-Castro Cubans living in the swing state of Florida. If all the Castro haters moved to California or Texas they would be ignored and we might have a logical policy on Cuba.
Florida has been a swing state since the '60s and that is the only reason why we have embargo... amazing.

[ALEXIS_DH]

It's Castro's choice that his people suffer...

partial truth.

do you think he is more responsible that those who administer the suffering???
its like with the palestians. its their fault because its their choice to stay there and get slaughtered? or is it also fault of those administering the killings??

its like bart simpson telling Lisa, is your sole fault if you dont move while am punching the air, while walking towards.

and dont use the analogy with any judicial system, because the eeuu is no higher-ruling-court to decide who gets punished, nor the rights of others, appoinntment by nobody by the white house itself.

[ALEXIS_DH]

I think it boils down to: Cuba won't bend over and take it up the ass from Uncle Sam like everyone else. The US doesn't like not getting it's way and has a bit of a tantrum.


there is some truth in this.
think what hàppens with any country that doesnt bend over??

venezuela?? didnt they get couped some months ago with US money?? the only thing saving them from an embargo is their oil...
north korea?? isnt the white house considering military action?
Syria??
France?? freedom fries???
china??

what kind of relation does the US has with those country that do not bend over??

the list is not so short...

[Skookum]

If we hate commies so much why are we so kissy kissy with China?
Because we're in their pocket.

[Silver]

Because we're in their pocket.

And once you're in that, you ain't ever coming out.

[Skookum]

And once you're in that, you ain't ever coming out.
Have you ever heard of the word nemesis?

[Changleen]

http://www.dreamnation.fsnet.co.uk/nemesis.jpg

[Silver]

Have you ever heard of the word nemesis?

Y'know, I know that Guy Ritchie is a talentless hack, but I still really enjoy both his movies. :D

Have you seen Shaun of the Dead? Funny stuff...

[Westy]

Florida has been a swing state since the '60s and that is the only reason why we have embargo... amazing.

Nope, Florida has not been a swing state for the last 40 years. A lot of other things have changed since then, like the whole world. The commie threat is dead and Castro is pretty much harmless these days, yet our policies remain the same. The only thing our current policy does is satisfy a small but powerful group of voters. We are doing ourselves a disservice by keeping American businesses out of a particular market, the rest of the world happily trades with them and somehow Castro has yet to destabilize the western world. At least not yet, bwa ha aahahahahah.

[Changleen]

And what same person has been in charge for like 43 years? Ill give you a hint, he fell on his face the other day and I laughed.Your Dad? :)

[Changleen]

http://www.knife-party.net/flash/barry.html

[BurlyShirley]

Your Dad? :)
No. My dad's the guy who gave birth to the kid who screwed your mom.

[Slugman]

partial truth.[\QUOTE]
Never claimed it as truth... its my opinion and interpretation... and its 100%

[QUOTE=ALEXIS_DH]do you think he is more responsible that those who administer the suffering???
its like with the palestians. its their fault because its their choice to stay there and get slaughtered? or is it also fault of those administering the killings?? Who are you talking about? Is someone else running the country? I thought Fidel Castro was in charge...

You make Castro sound like some innocent bystander... he's the F'ing leader of a bloody revolution, kills people who do not agree with him and I doubt he faces the same shortages of goods that the people he is the "leader" of do.

He became leader by killing people, throwing out those who opposed them (while keeping all their valuables... you could leave with only the clothes on your back!), and to this day supresses those who speak out against him.

[Slugman]

We are doing ourselves a disservice by keeping American businesses out of a particular market, the rest of the world happily trades with them and somehow Castro has yet to destabilize the western world.

Oh yeah... openeing up Cuba would really give the US a financial boost that it needs :rolleyes:

Besides any smart businessman would have already partnered with any number of Non-US groups and be running resorts down there already.

[Damn True]

I kinda like Cuba. There's a really nice reef break on the windward side of the Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, and about 1.5miles west of the base there is a KILLER rt. point.

[Damn True]

We are doing ourselves a disservice by keeping American businesses out of a particular market, the rest of the world happily trades with them and somehow Castro has yet to destabilize the western world. At least not yet, bwa ha aahahahahah.

Yeah their trade with France has been lucrative as hell.

Seriously, as soon as Castro dies there will be an election, the commies will be ousted and a new resort mecca will be born.

I hope it happens sooner than later, the Giants could use a good left handed reliever.

[Skookum]

I kinda like Cuba. There's a really nice reef break on the windward side of the Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, and about 1.5miles west of the base there is a KILLER rt. point.
Hmmm proof DT's foreign policy is based on what kinda surf they have on thier shores.... :think: i should have suspected....

[Damn True]

Hmmm proof DT's foreign policy is based on what kinda surf they have on thier shores.... :think: i should have suspected....

Levity.....look it up.

[ALEXIS_DH]

Who are you talking about? Is someone else running the country? I thought Fidel Castro was in charge...

You make Castro sound like some innocent bystander... he's the F'ing leader of a bloody revolution, kills people who do not agree with him and I doubt he faces the same shortages of goods that the people he is the "leader" of do.

He became leader by killing people, throwing out those who opposed them (while keeping all their valuables... you could leave with only the clothes on your back!), and to this day supresses those who speak out against him.


i dont support castro. I think he is mofo. i know all those stories as well. and am not saying he is a innocent bystander.

what am saying is that he is truly bad for the Cuban people. But he is not worse than the other side, the white house, pushing for an embargo, in which the only victims are the cubans.

castro is the rock, and the US is the hard surface.

the cubans are in the middle. They are getting stiffed from both sides, because not Castro, nor the white house want to lift this embargo for things that happened 30 years ago.

dont you think the rock and the hard surface are both responsible for the suffering of those cubans today????????

or is only castro the only responsible, according to the absolute moral, self-rightousness, US-infalacy, and the double standard in the foreign policy of the white house??

[Slugman]

dont you think the rock and the hard surface are both responsible for the suffering of those cubans today????????
80% Castro, 20% US...

Castro has many different options that the US would not be able to block, he chooses to allow it in order to allow himself to be seen as a victim/Hero.

[DRB]

i dont support castro. I think he is mofo. i know all those stories as well. and am not saying he is a innocent bystander.
the cubans are in the middle. They are getting stiffed from both sides, because not Castro, nor the white house want to lift this embargo for things that happened 30 years ago.

dont you think the rock and the hard surface are both responsible for the suffering of those cubans today????????

or is only castro the only responsible, according to the absolute moral, self-rightousness, US-infalacy, and the double standard in the foreign policy of the white house??

So why not go on about the crappy government policies that allow the average Cuban to live in poverty with crappy medical care, little or no hope for improving themselves or a life something other than what the government says they can have. A country's government is ultimately responsible for the safety and care of its OWN citizens. Its called accountability.

Cuba could be a much better place if Castro modified government policies both domestically and internationally to better match the needs of his people. And I certainly don't mean a modification of his policies or feelings towards the US. Cuba doesn't need the US. Cuba doesn't need the US to trade with or provide support to provide better for its own citizens.

Why not blame the Russians? It was there pull out in the late 80's and 90's that caused the recession that Cuba is just now recovering from not any US embargo.

Or even now Castro as said that US dollars will no longer be allowed to be legally be traded after Nov. 8th. What do you think that is going to do their economy? I didn't see where Bush was signing that law into being. Oh but Cubans will be able to exchange their US currency for Cuban currency at a set rate with a 10% commission. 10% commission how is that helpful or providing for his citizens?

Even then if the US was to all of sudden to open the flood gates by lifting the embargo. The backlash that the US had ruined Cuba and its natural beauty do the huge amount of industrialization and commercialization that would inevitably occur.

Just because I decide not to do business with you does not make it my responsibility if your business fails. No matter how ridculous the reasons maybe.

[N8]

A Cuban pal of mine says when Castro dies the whole country of Cuba is gonna be in a bloody civil war as revenge is extracted...

[ALEXIS_DH]

Just because I decide not to do business with you does not make it my responsibility if your business fails. No matter how ridculous the reasons maybe.


if that was tha case, it would be fair. perfectly fair.
I said this earlier. If the US didnt want to trade with Cuba, that is its right and its fine by any ethical standard.

But its not the case, the almost 40 years of embargo, are not only against Cuba, but they included punishment for other nations willing to trade with Cuba. And nobody but most cubans are taking the toll, castro will smuggle whatever he needs.

taken from a .gov site. it explicity says sanctions are urged against those who assist cuba. and by assist, i think its pretty obvious that "trade" is included.

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/ar/us-cuba/libertad.htm


(1) Restrictions by other countries.--The Congress hereby reaffirms section 1704(a) of the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992, which states that the President should encourage foreign countries to restrict trade and credit relations with Cuba in a manner consistent with the purposes of that Act
(2) Sanctions on other countries.--The Congress further urges the President to take immediate steps to apply the sanctions described in section 1704(b)(1) of that Act against countries assisting Cuba.



that is the problem. that is not "justice", not even in the machiavellical white house way of broken-nails-for-eyes-heart-kidneys.
that is revenge. and castro is as responsible, for letting this situation continue, as those pushing for the embargo without thinking the effects of the embargo on the population.

its like torturing the son of a murderer, hoping the murderer will surrender. do you think in that case the murderer is 100% responsible for the torture of the kid?
or the torturer AND the murderer are BOTH responsible for torturing a not-guilty kid?

I am not a communist, and I am not defending Cuba or its political and economic systems. and my argument is not for their system, or castro, but for the people of cuba, who ultimately pay the toll of the embargo.

and using the missile crisis as a backup argument? BS, the US is helping Russia right now, and the whole crissis a russian intelectual and physical property!.

under international law the embargo is illegal. and in fact, it doesnt work as good as you wonder. castro would be much less popular if he didn't have the US to blame for his country's problems.

The illusion that sanctions are cost free also necessitates reintroducing the concept of private property into the sanctions debate. It is one thing to stop sending U.S. government dollars to a distasteful regime; it is quite another to prevent private individuals and companies from legally using their own property in another country. and that goes against the "FREEDOM" of the US citizens the white house pushes so much.
not allowing US-ers to travel to cuba, is a big hit against the "personal freedom" the white house, dont you think???

[DRB]

(1) Restrictions by other countries.--The Congress hereby reaffirms section 1704(a) of the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992, which states that the President should encourage foreign countries to restrict trade and credit relations with Cuba in a manner consistent with the purposes of that Act
(2) Sanctions on other countries.--The Congress further urges the President to take immediate steps to apply the sanctions described in section 1704(b)(1) of that Act against countries assisting Cuba.

that is the problem. that is not "justice", not even in the machiavellical white house way of broken-nails-for-eyes-heart-kidneys.
that is revenge. and castro is as responsible, for letting this situation continue, as those pushing for the embargo without thinking the effects of the embargo on the population.

I am not a communist, and I am not defending Cuba or its political and economic systems. and my argument is not for their system, or castro, but for the people of cuba, who ultimately pay the toll of the embargo.


That the largest trading partner for Cuba as been the EU. Which basically told the US to shove it when the 1992 act was passed along with subsequent ones in 1996, 2000 and 2002. Promising retalitory sanctions if the US imposed sanctions on non US based companies. Actually the EU has begun to level their own sanctions upon Cuba based on human rights violations including the execution of three men who hijacked a ferry to escape to the US.

Additionally the EU as chafed at the hostile investment climate, characterized by inefficient and overpriced labor imposed by the communist government, dense regulations, and an impenetrable bureaucracy, continue to deter foreign investment. Foreign direct investment flows decreased from $448 million in 2000 to $39 million in 2001 and were at zero in 2002. The EU offered up a document outlining the problems it was having in July 2002. In that report no mention was made of the US embargo but put solely the reponsibilitly for diminishing EU investment in the hands of the Cubans and their policies.

In doing so the EU came to fall on Castro's bad side. In a speech within the last year, Castro lashed out at

..... the new enemy, the European Union, calling it "arrogant and calculating." European nations are "full of hate" and "don't deserve the least amount of respect from the Cuban government. Cuba doesn't need the European Union to survive," he said.

You keep wanting to make this about the US because that's your stance. Again you claim to not support Castro nor his government but offer no criticism nor do you seemingly acknowledge the role that he and it plays in the plight of the Cuban people. Do you think that if the US lifted the embargo tomorrow that the plight of the Cuban people would change? Of course it wouldn't, that's not going to happen until Castro modifies his domestic and international policies to be more beneficial to his own people.

Even the UN has come out with something to say. In a report released just this year by the UN Economic Commission on Latin America and the Caribbean recommends that Cuba “redesign the parameters of competition in the public, private and cooperative sectors [and] redefine the role of the state in the economy.”

A decade ago, the Cuban government adopted a series of modest economic reforms. It permitted U.S. dollars to circulate freely. It allowed tens of thousands of Cubans to operate small businesses. And it began developing its tourism industry. It began to fuel the recovery from the recession caused by the leaving of the Russians. In recent years, instead of continuing to open up the economy, authorities have clamped down, shutting down some private businesses and taxing others out of existence. To carry this to an almost painful end, is the banning of the US currency I mentioned in the first post.

You want to separate Castro from the Cuban people but you can't do that. He is there leader and their government. He is their problem.

[Skookum]

Levity.....look it up.
haha i actually had to.... :D

at least "some" people out there will delight in this exchange.